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Old 14th November 2012, 05:51 AM   #1
Dcdrac
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Scandal in Ireland as woman dies in Galway 'after being denied abortion'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...ortion-refusal

Scandal in Ireland as woman dies in Galway 'after being denied abortion'

Health authorities investigating septicaemia death of 31-year-old dentist Savita Halappanavar
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Old 14th November 2012, 05:54 AM   #2
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ecessary-death
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Old 14th November 2012, 05:56 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Dcdrac View Post
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...ortion-refusal

Scandal in Ireland as woman dies in Galway 'after being denied abortion'

Health authorities investigating septicaemia death of 31-year-old dentist Savita Halappanavar
Yeah austerity sucks what of it? Anyone who wants an abortion in the Republic of Ireland goes to England anyway.
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Old 14th November 2012, 06:17 AM   #4
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Geni, read the article. She didn't "want an abortion" in that sense. She was gravely ill and needed an abortion to save her life. From what I've read she couldn't physically have travelled to England in the first place. She was actually in hospital at the time.

What has this to do with austerity?

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Old 14th November 2012, 06:23 AM   #5
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Here's a more detailed article.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...326575203.html

Originally Posted by the dead woman's husband
“The doctor told us the cervix was fully dilated, amniotic fluid was leaking and unfortunately the baby wouldn’t survive.” The doctor, he says, said it should be over in a few hours. There followed three days, he says, of the foetal heartbeat being checked several times a day.

“Savita was really in agony. She was very upset, but she accepted she was losing the baby. When the consultant came on the ward rounds on Monday morning Savita asked if they could not save the baby could they induce to end the pregnancy. The consultant said, ‘As long as there is a foetal heartbeat we can’t do anything’.

“Again on Tuesday morning, the ward rounds and the same discussion. The consultant said it was the law, that this is a Catholic country. Savita [a Hindu] said: ‘I am neither Irish nor Catholic’ but they said there was nothing they could do.

“That evening she developed shakes and shivering and she was vomiting. She went to use the toilet and she collapsed. There were big alarms and a doctor took bloods and started her on antibiotics.

“The next morning I said she was so sick and asked again that they just end it, but they said they couldn’t.”

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Old 14th November 2012, 06:34 AM   #6
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This is disgusting. Absolutely disgusting.
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Old 14th November 2012, 07:09 AM   #7
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Just read about this on the BBC website. Seems the pervasive influence of the catholic church on Irish law trumps scientific medicine again.

If Doctors take the Hippocratic oath, do the clergy take the hypocritic oath?

Seems there may be some hope though as recent surveys have suggested that the influence of the church in Ireland is waning, largely in the wake of the child abuse scandals that the church tried so hard to cover up. Let's hope that this case may speed up the process!
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Old 14th November 2012, 07:23 AM   #8
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Doctors in Ireland clearly cannot be taking the Hippocratic oath - or they refuse to follow it. As I recall, it's first precept is: "First, Do No Harm."
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Old 14th November 2012, 07:28 AM   #9
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Speechless....
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Old 14th November 2012, 07:34 AM   #10
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They couldn't do a c-section? I thought that was procedure when a birth was taking too long?
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Old 14th November 2012, 07:39 AM   #11
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Don't be silly. This was a septic miscarriage (technically, abortion) of a 17-week foetus. Trans-abdominal approach would have been insane, and subject to exactly the same constraints as anything else.

What she needed was a D&C, immediately.

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Old 14th November 2012, 07:40 AM   #12
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Terminology is funny. I have to explain to my students that an abortion is what they would call a miscarriage, and what they would call an abortion is in fact a termination.

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Old 14th November 2012, 07:41 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
They couldn't do a c-section? I thought that was procedure when a birth was taking too long?
As per article it was a 17 week pregnancy which went awry. What was needed was an abortion, the foetus would not survive either way, to save the mother. But rather than save the mother, they chose to let her risk her life by waiting that the foetus die of natural way, which it did not quickly, thus the mother get septicemy thru the half miscariage and died.

In other word, rather than save the mother and abort the baby , they chose to follow a stupid as **** idiotic rule (wait for the foetus to die alone) and killed the mother.

I seriously hope that the doctor involved and the hospital involved get the hammer.

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Old 14th November 2012, 07:41 AM   #14
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I tried to tell that to my parents, as my mother's first pregnancy was ectopic and her second was miscarried, but she insists that she's never had an abortion.
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Old 14th November 2012, 08:44 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Doctors in Ireland clearly cannot be taking the Hippocratic oath - or they refuse to follow it. As I recall, it's first precept is: "First, Do No Harm."
The Oath also prohibits providing pregnancy termination:
Quote:
Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.
Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
As per article it was a 17 week pregnancy which went awry. What was needed was an abortion, the foetus would not survive either way, to save the mother. But rather than save the mother, they chose to let her risk her life by waiting that the foetus die of natural way, which it did not quickly, thus the mother get septicemy thru the half miscariage and died.

In other word, rather than save the mother and abort the baby , they chose to follow a stupid as **** idiotic rule (wait for the foetus to die alone) and killed the mother.

I seriously hope that the doctor involved and the hospital involved get the hammer.
Yes this is going to be an interesting case, possibly sufficient to overcome legislative cowardice.
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Old 14th November 2012, 08:48 AM   #16
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Yes, that's often overlooked. The original Hippocratic oath specifically includes a promise not to perform a termination.

It looks as if these doctors were between the devil and the deep blue sea. If they'd done the D&C, and the lady had lived, they would have had to prove her life (not just her health and wellbeing) had been in danger. Not necessarily so easy after the fact, if she hadn't actually died.

And while everyone is criticising the "this is a Catholic country" comment, who knows but that it was said in a disgusted tone of voice by someone who was pretty pissed-off about it all.

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Old 14th November 2012, 09:08 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
I tried to tell that to my parents, as my mother's first pregnancy was ectopic and her second was miscarried, but she insists that she's never had an abortion.
Of course not, her abortions are different.
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Old 14th November 2012, 09:11 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Yes, that's often overlooked. The original Hippocratic oath specifically includes a promise not to perform a termination.

It looks as if these doctors were between the devil and the deep blue sea. If they'd done the D&C, and the lady had lived, they would have had to prove her life (not just her health and wellbeing) had been in danger. Not necessarily so easy after the fact, if she hadn't actually died.

And while everyone is criticising the "this is a Catholic country" comment, who knows but that it was said in a disgusted tone of voice by someone who was pretty pissed-off about it all.

Rolfe.
Her life being in danger doesn't matter to the church though. They don't see that as sufficient to justify an abortion. Now if her life was in danger and she needed a hysterectomy that would be different.
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Old 14th November 2012, 09:23 AM   #19
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It doesn't seem to be as simple as that. The Irish constitution permits terminations to save the mother's life. It's "just" that they haven't legislated on it so that the doctors know where they stand and what procedure to follow.

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Old 14th November 2012, 09:37 AM   #20
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Our abortion laws are a mess because the Irish politicians, (from all parties), don't have the courage to legislate in line with the X case. Despite several referedums which gave the us the opportunity to role back the ruling from that case being turned down by the electorate, our poliiticians are simply too intimidated by the pro-life lobby to do their jobs properly and legislate the way we keep telling them to.

That's why this woman lost her life.
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Old 14th November 2012, 09:44 AM   #21
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A so called 'pro life' lobby organisation called Precious Life has been quoted as saying their prayers and thoughts are with the family.

Always so damn annoying that they are called 'pro life' as if supporters of abortion are anti life.

If so motivated feel free to tell Precious Life what you think of their 'thoughts and prayers'..

info@preciouslife.com

The criticism should indeed be reserved for the politicians and pro lifers as opposed to the Doctors, who work under the fear of the law finding them guilty of doing the right thing.
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Last edited by Dubious Dick; 14th November 2012 at 09:48 AM. Reason: missed a bit
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Old 14th November 2012, 10:05 AM   #22
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Blind dogma takes life, news at 10.

Quote:
A so called 'pro life' lobby organisation called Precious Life has been quoted as saying their prayers and thoughts are with the family.
I love how "I'll pray for you" is like a get-out-of-jail free card in that it can be used to say anything.

Last edited by Safe-Keeper; 14th November 2012 at 10:16 AM.
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Old 14th November 2012, 10:24 AM   #23
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I note some Irish commentators saying this happened because she was in Galway, and that a similar situation arising in Dublin would have been dealt with properly. I don't know how true that is.

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Old 14th November 2012, 10:25 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
What has this to do with austerity?
If you cut health spending people die. In places like Ireland one of the easier groups to move on would be those doctors prepared to get involved with the matters raised on the opening post.
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Old 14th November 2012, 10:27 AM   #25
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I think that's a bit tenuous, to put it mildly.

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Old 14th November 2012, 10:34 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I think that's a bit tenuous, to put it mildly.

Rolfe.
We haven't seen many such cases in the past so historicaly there was clearly some system in place. It could have been picking things up early followed by a rapaid transfer to england but that seems unlikely.

A more likely senario is that there were a small group of doctors who delt with such matters some of whom have been retired or otherwise moved on.
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Old 14th November 2012, 10:35 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I note some Irish commentators saying this happened because she was in Galway, and that a similar situation arising in Dublin would have been dealt with properly. I don't know how true that is.

Rolfe.
Probably true. Speaking as an Irish woman I would prefer to be in a Dublin hospital in that situation than in Galway.
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Old 14th November 2012, 10:40 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by geni View Post
We haven't seen many such cases in the past so historicaly there was clearly some system in place. It could have been picking things up early followed by a rapaid transfer to england but that seems unlikely.

A more likely senario is that there were a small group of doctors who delt with such matters some of whom have been retired or otherwise moved on.

Nobody is going to be rapidly transferred to England in that condition. It was something which should have been dealt with where it happened, but for dogma getting in the way. Your "likely scenario" is fanciful.

There is no suggestion from the reports that cuts or austerity measures had anything to do with this tragedy. The likely cause seems to be the absence of any legislative framework within which the doctors could have performed a termination knowing they were not acting illegally.

No doubt there is more to it all than meets the eye. Were the doctors disgusted by their own inability to act? Were they country yokels who didn't understand how the big hospitals in the metropolis deal with this situation? Were they simply unaware of how life-threatening the situation actually was? Were they just hoping she would abort naturally "any minute now" and paralysed by indecision when she kept on failing to do that? Were they actually fundamentalist Catholic "pro-lifers" themselves?

Perhaps an inquiry will reveal more. And then again perhaps it won't.

Rolfe.
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Old 14th November 2012, 10:42 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by geni View Post
We haven't seen many such cases in the past so historicaly there was clearly some system in place. It could have been picking things up early followed by a rapaid transfer to england but that seems unlikely.

A more likely senario is that there were a small group of doctors who delt with such matters some of whom have been retired or otherwise moved on.
The thing is that in things like this it is mostly likely a confluence of many bad decisions and policies. Sure one doctor choosing to risk performing the abortion would have saved her, but when everyone is walking past something it is hard for an individual to respond to it.
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Old 14th November 2012, 10:56 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Your "likely scenario" is fanciful.
Really? We know that this kind of thing doesn't happen that often so it means that normaly there are doctors prepared to get involved regardless of the legal situation. Since on this case none of them were that makes it statisticaly highly probably that the number prepared to get involved is rather small. Cuts in healthcare spending means some level or removal of doctors and it is quite possible that those removed were those prepared to take the legal risks.
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Old 14th November 2012, 11:00 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by geni View Post
Really? We know that this kind of thing doesn't happen that often so it means that normaly there are doctors prepared to get involved regardless of the legal situation. Since on this case none of them were that makes it statisticaly highly probably that the number prepared to get involved is rather small. Cuts in healthcare spending means some level or removal of doctors and it is quite possible that those removed were those prepared to take the legal risks.
Except I see no evidence that the current health care cuts have taken the form of removing doctors from hospitals in Galway. On the contrary, so far its been a case of cutting the budget of Sligo General Hospital and relocating services and doctors in the west of Ireland from Sligo to Galway.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree here, this was caused by Ireland's dappy attitude to abortion, not by any austerity measures.
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Old 14th November 2012, 11:02 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Except I see no evidence that the current health care cuts have taken the form of removing doctors from hospitals in Galway. On the contrary, so far its been a case of cutting the budget of Sligo General Hospital and relocating services and doctors in the west of Ireland from Sligo to Galway.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree here, this was caused by Ireland's dappy attitude to abortion, not by any austerity measures.
Then why didn't we see it in the past. What has changed?
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Old 14th November 2012, 11:03 AM   #33
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How do you know "we didn't see it in the past"?

Rolfe.
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Old 14th November 2012, 11:09 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by geni View Post
Then why didn't we see it in the past. What has changed?
Its become newsworthy.
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Old 14th November 2012, 11:09 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
Blind dogma takes life, news at 10.

I love how "I'll pray for you" is like a get-out-of-jail free card in that it can be used to say anything.
My wish for those POSes is "May you devour feces and expire swiftly. And may Satan himself horsewhip you all the way to Hell!!!"
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Old 14th November 2012, 12:24 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by geni View Post
Then why didn't we see it in the past. What has changed?
post hock ergo proptor hock for the win!
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Old 14th November 2012, 12:34 PM   #37
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This particular woman was neither Irish nor Catholic, and her husband is making a bigger fuss than has been made previously I believe. Campaigners are using the case to try to pressurise the government to enact the necessary legislation to allow doctors to perform a termination in these circumstances, so it's getting a high profile.

And it made it into the Grauniad, and about five minutes ago on to C4 News, complete with telephone interview with the husband.

There is no suggestion at all that funding cuts or austerity are involved in this affair, and if Geni thinks they were it's up to him to provide supporting evidence.

Rolfe.
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Old 14th November 2012, 02:01 PM   #38
Agatha
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I believe there was a vigil held this evening outside the Irish Embassy in London in support of the family, and in the hope of forcing a change to the law. On my facebook there are some people sharing petition pages but they are only open to those living in Ireland.

It's an appalling thing to happen and my heart goes out to the family, such a waste of that woman's life in the name of some outdated dogma. Sometimes I <rule10> hate religion and its adherents.
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Old 14th November 2012, 02:14 PM   #39
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Thanks for that blanket condemnation.....

Rolfe.
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Old 14th November 2012, 03:10 PM   #40
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Sometimes. Not blanket condemnation of any religion, nor of any particular religion's adherents. And it is only my personal opinion.

But I do definitely condemn those who would put adherence to a dogma over the life of a woman (or man, or child), and I'm not going to retract that or apologise for it; I don't believe that you would be one of those people (purely from things you've said eg on circumcision threads) so I'm not condemning you.
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