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Old 13th November 2012, 07:50 AM   #41
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I have no love for the RCC as an organization, but you're simply dead wrong if you think the members of a local parish who give money to build food pantries, shelters, and housing in the neighborhood (and actually see those things that they're giving money for) are really secretly fueling the Vatican's campaigns to cover up child rape and extend AIDS and overpopulation in Africa, and therefore should be considered just as culpable as the actual members of the hierarchy who do those things.
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Old 13th November 2012, 07:53 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by ANTPogo View Post
I have no love for the RCC as an organization, but you're simply dead wrong if you think the members of a local parish who give money to build food pantries, shelters, and housing in the neighborhood (and actually see those things that they're giving money for) are really secretly fueling the Vatican's campaigns to cover up child rape and extend AIDS and overpopulation in Africa, and therefore should be considered just as culpable as the actual members of the hierarchy who do those things.
Would you donate money to the KKK if they were opening a food kitchen or an orphanage? I don't think I would.
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Old 13th November 2012, 07:54 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
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Papal infallibility is a dogma of the Catholic Church, if you do not follow the Pope's lead you are a hypocrite...
It is a dogma that is far from universally accepted, having even been disputed by a number of popes. So a Catholic who doesn't follow the pope's lead is not a hypocrite, but rather someone who thinks that the pope is wrong about something.
Just out of curiosity... why exactly is she a member of the Catholic church then?

Although some popes might have disputed infallibility its still a fairly widely entrenched concept within the catholic church. And even if they don't belief in "infallibility" the Catholic church is still a largely controlled in a top-down, non-democratic fashion.

Why doesn't she find some other church that provides similar functionality, but that doesn't hold principles she thinks are 'wrong'?

Quote:
So my wife, who has donated money to her parish because they are actively working to improve the lives of the poor who live in the surrounding area, is "scum", is she?
What if the other poster had used the word "naive", would that have been better?

As another poster asked, does she know just how much of her money is going to "help the poor"? Is there any sort of accounting going on?

The catholic church has many problems... sex and financial scandals, donations sometimes go to fill the coffers of the vatican rather than being used in the local community. You'll have to forgive people if they're a little suspicious of someone claiming to help the poor by donating to an organization with that many problems.

Its like donating to the KKK because they run a food bank. Yes, it may help some people, but its hard to forget that most of what they do is just so... wrong.
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Old 13th November 2012, 07:58 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by ANTPogo View Post
I have no love for the RCC as an organization, but you're simply dead wrong if you think the members of a local parish who give money to build food pantries, shelters, and housing in the neighborhood (and actually see those things that they're giving money for) are really secretly fueling the Vatican's campaigns to cover up child rape and extend AIDS and overpopulation in Africa, and therefore should be considered just as culpable as the actual members of the hierarchy who do those things.
Not as culpable, just culpable. But if the donations are really used solely locally there should be records of that. Where does the church get the money for paying off raped children and spreading aids? I suspect no one is giving them that much money with the idea of it going toward those things.
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Old 13th November 2012, 08:14 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Just out of curiosity... why exactly is she a member of the Catholic church then?
Because her parents were? That's the reason most people are members of a particular religion. For the average person, and Catholics in particular, remaining in the church while disagreeing with its views on social matters (which they may only vaguely be aware of) isn't thought of as hypocrisy, but "just the way it is". People generally leave the church for more basic reasons, like not believing all the God and Jesus stuff.
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Old 13th November 2012, 08:29 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
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Just out of curiosity... why exactly is she a member of the Catholic church then?
Because her parents were? That's the reason most people are members of a particular religion. For the average person, and Catholics in particular, remaining in the church while disagreeing with its views on social matters (which they may only vaguely be aware of) isn't thought of as hypocrisy, but "just the way it is". People generally leave the church for more basic reasons, like not believing all the God and Jesus stuff.
Yes I do realize that people often keep the same church affiliation as their parents. But people switching religions isn't that uncommon.

Apparently around 44% of people have "changed faith" at some point in their lives. 9% of the U.S. population was raised catholic but have left the church. (And given the fact that catholics make up such less than half the population, that's a big change.) And roughly half of all people who leave the catholic church end up joining various protestant religions (so not all of them are leaving to become atheists.)

http://www.pewforum.org/faith-in-flux.aspx
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Old 13th November 2012, 08:42 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
9% of the U.S. population was raised catholic but have left the church. (And given the fact that catholics make up such less than half the population, that's a big change.) And roughly half of all people who leave the catholic church end up joining various protestant religions (so not all of them are leaving to become atheists.)

http://www.pewforum.org/faith-in-flux.aspx
I suspect that the number leaving for another religion was significantly smaller pre-sex-scandal. That is one social issue that really has had an effect. The fact remains that apart from the sex scandal, most Catholics don't think of the Church's stand on social issues as a reason to leave, the same way that most people who live in Mississippi don't see the state government's stand on social issues as a reason to move to another state. It's just background noise that doesn't concern them.
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Old 13th November 2012, 08:46 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
I suspect that the number leaving for another religion was significantly smaller pre-sex-scandal. That is one social issue that really has had an effect. The fact remains that apart from the sex scandal, most Catholics don't think of the Church's stand on social issues as a reason to leave, the same way that most people who live in Mississippi don't see the state government's stand on social issues as a reason to move to another state. It's just background noise that doesn't concern them.
And they still choose to give them money to fund those things they don't care about and don't concern them, like battling the homosexuals.
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Old 13th November 2012, 09:03 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And they still choose to give them money to fund those things they don't care about and don't concern them, like battling the homosexuals.
Are you referring to the Catholic church, or the state of Mississippi?
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Old 13th November 2012, 09:08 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
Are you referring to the Catholic church, or the state of Mississippi?
Catholic church. You have no legal obligation to give them money.
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Old 13th November 2012, 09:13 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
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9% of the U.S. population was raised catholic but have left the church. And roughly half of all people who leave the catholic church end up joining various protestant religions (so not all of them are leaving to become atheists.)
I suspect that the number leaving for another religion was significantly smaller pre-sex-scandal. That is one social issue that really has had an effect.
Actually it wasn't as much of an effect as you might think. From the same reference, less than 30% of the catholics who left the church did so because of the sex scandal. (Certainly a significant number, but far from a majority.)

Quote:
The fact remains that apart from the sex scandal, most Catholics don't think of the Church's stand on social issues as a reason to leave...
From the same article:
...two-thirds of former Catholics who have become unaffiliated say they left the Catholic faith because they stopped believing in its teachings, as do half of former Catholics who are now Protestant.

Now, the article used the term "teachings". You used the phrase "stand on social issues". I am equating the 2 (mostly because the reference doesn't differentiate between which teachings are the ones causing people to leave.)
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Old 13th November 2012, 09:19 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Catholic church. You have no legal obligation to give them money.
You are not obligated to live in Mississippi either. Many people would consider leaving the state to be less disruptive than leaving the church. For lots of people, the church is the center of their social world. Everything that happens in the church outside of coffee and donuts, their children's Catholic school, and to a lesser extent, mass, doesn't concern them. I'm not saying that's a good thing.
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Old 13th November 2012, 11:51 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
You are not obligated to live in Mississippi either. Many people would consider leaving the state to be less disruptive than leaving the church. For lots of people, the church is the center of their social world. Everything that happens in the church outside of coffee and donuts, their children's Catholic school, and to a lesser extent, mass, doesn't concern them. I'm not saying that's a good thing.
Which may be true, but ignorance or indifference isn't a very good justification.

If you are a member of a club then I think you have an obligation to understand what that club stands for, what it does in your name and how people will view you as a member of that club.

Particularly when the club makes a celebrity and idol out of someone with such downright nasty views as the Pope.
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Old 13th November 2012, 01:03 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
You are not obligated to live in Mississippi either. Many people would consider leaving the state to be less disruptive than leaving the church. For lots of people, the church is the center of their social world. Everything that happens in the church outside of coffee and donuts, their children's Catholic school, and to a lesser extent, mass, doesn't concern them. I'm not saying that's a good thing.
So as long as we keep the coffee and doughnuts upfront it's OK to bugger boys in the back room?
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Old 13th November 2012, 03:33 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
So as long as we keep the coffee and doughnuts upfront it's OK to bugger boys in the back room?
That, as I said, is one exception. Anyway, you're completely missing my point. Segnosaur implied that a "Catholic who doesn't follow the pope's lead" should leave the church. That isn't the way most Catholics think. Pretty much all of them don't follow the pope's lead, and don't give it much thought or feel any guilt about it. Last of the Fraggles recently said "If you are a member of a club then I think you have an obligation to understand what that club stands for, what it does in your name and how people will view you as a member of that club." Most Catholics feel no such obligation. Church dogma is irrelevant to them. What the pope does or what the church does in Africa is the pope's business, it has nothing to do with them. If they were the kind of people who thought deeply about religion, then chances are they would have left already. You might think that people shouldn't be that way, but that is how most of them are.
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Old 14th November 2012, 01:42 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by ANTPogo View Post
I have no love for the RCC as an organization, but you're simply dead wrong if you think the members of a local parish who give money to build food pantries, shelters, and housing in the neighborhood (and actually see those things that they're giving money for) are really secretly fueling the Vatican's campaigns to cover up child rape and extend AIDS and overpopulation in Africa, and therefore should be considered just as culpable as the actual members of the hierarchy who do those things.
Problem being, those people are billboards for the church, every single person who calls themselves catholic are billboards for the church. Now, if the church is doing things you do not agree with, and you still advertise for them, that makes one a hypocrite.

In fact these people do more for the power and presence of the church than the people openly saying "Stop gays from marrying." , as the actions they get noticed for shed a positive light upon the church, and distract from the horrible crap the church does.

If one wants to be a breathing billboard, they have every right to be, but they cannot then complain when one points out the fact that being a breathing billboard , yet silently disagreeing with the church, is the very definition of hypocrisy. If you are against something be against it, you cannot have your cake and eat it too.
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Old 14th November 2012, 01:48 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
Because her parents were? That's the reason most people are members of a particular religion. For the average person, and Catholics in particular, remaining in the church while disagreeing with its views on social matters (which they may only vaguely be aware of) isn't thought of as hypocrisy, but "just the way it is". People generally leave the church for more basic reasons, like not believing all the God and Jesus stuff.
Problem being that course of action is cowardly, and detrimental to mankind as a whole.

If someone chooses the lazy way, it doesn't matter how many other people choose it , it is still wrong and harmful. What happened to the spirit of standing up for what is right? What is easy is seldom what is right, but people seem to have forgotten that and are perfectly happy to let people get away with retarding the progress of society, because most folks are lazy and do this as well.

Seriously, every time i hear the "Well i would stand up for what i believe, but it would cause me grief." line of logic repeated or defended, my faith in humanity goes down a little bit more. That is the point of taking a stand , you are going to take **** for the betterment of society. But people don't think like that anymore, they want to solve issues with internet petitions and youtube videos, where the worst they will experience is a hateful comment. And others support this, it is honestly sickening to me.

If you don't do what is right because you don't want to deal with the fallout, you are a coward, and no rationalization from " I'm only one person." to " But none of my family will talk to me." makes this untrue.
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Old 14th November 2012, 01:50 PM   #58
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I think most Catholics are just Catholic enough to get the prize when they die. Or so they think. Hedging their bet, so to speak.
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Old 14th November 2012, 01:53 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
You are not obligated to live in Mississippi either. Many people would consider leaving the state to be less disruptive than leaving the church. For lots of people, the church is the center of their social world. Everything that happens in the church outside of coffee and donuts, their children's Catholic school, and to a lesser extent, mass, doesn't concern them. I'm not saying that's a good thing.
Then, what exactly are you saying?

You seem to be trying to subtly make the point that these folks arn't really doing anything for the church, so they arn't accountable, and because of the **** they would take by leaving, it is okay.

But this is just a horrible, immoral line of reasoning. Every person who calls themself a member is a billboard, and these legions of folks who go to church twice a year provide advertising and power to the church. If they are ignorant as to what they are supporting , that is no excuse, ignorance isn't some get out of jail free card, it is a flaw, and one that can easily be remedied in the internet age.

Is it so wrong to expect more of people? To expect folks to think and do the right thing? Sure not many people do, but that doesn't suddenly make it allright.
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Old 14th November 2012, 03:05 PM   #60
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Maybe I can shed some light here from personal experience.

Many Catholics don't see their faith as something they openly choose (even though that's what we're supposed to do in the sacrament of "confirmation"). In my Irish/Italian household, our catholicism had more to do with our heritage or perceived ethnicity than it did any kind of reasoned choice about "what religion I'm most comfortable with." We were the descendants of our Old World ancestors who sometimes endured great persecution for their faith. It was (still is for most of my family) a source of great and solemn pride. To break that chain - especially for the purpose of joining another faith that might have been behind that persecution - was pretty much the worst thing any of us could do.

Conservative Catholicism like ours simply didn't acknowledge the kind of "social problems" we're discussing here. The most serious problem of today - sexual abuse of children in the Church - was simply not discussed. There might have been rumors and whispers every so often about some priest somewhere, but it is a mistake to think that rank and file Catholics turned blind eyes to child abuse. We didn't know about it because it was never discussed. What happened when such abuse finally did go public? Catholics abandoned ship faster than ever before.

But the thing that keeps a lot of Catholics in, including myself for years after the scandal broke, was this notion of "fixing" our church from within. There are bad apples in every big organization - Jesus even had one among his hand-picked apostles! Those bad apples do not define OUR church. Our church builds schools and hospitals and preaches forgiveness above all things. Most important, you can no more become "un-Catholic" than you can undo your ethnic heritage. The Church is your family, whether you like it or not. I ultimately left because I didn't believe in God; that's the kind of watershed realization it takes for some of us "cradle Catholics" to finally break free. What I have never understood was why some people would - as adults - actively choose to join the Catholic Church. In most - but not all - cases, the impetus seems to be "getting to have sex with a person who already is Catholic."

There are activists in the Church, and bishops routinely receive impassioned letters from parishioners making the case for change. But I suspect that most of those activists would like to roll back to Latin masses rather than progress forward to condoning homosexual marriages. Knowing what we know now about the widespread problems the Church has caused down through the years, I agree that it's difficult to imagine those sheeple in the pews every Sunday not being fully complicit in everything the Church does. I guess I'd just urge folks to recognize that the reasons people might choose to stay have little to nothing to do with reason.
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Old 15th November 2012, 04:48 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Conservative Catholicism like ours simply didn't acknowledge the kind of "social problems" we're discussing here. The most serious problem of today - sexual abuse of children in the Church - was simply not discussed. There might have been rumors and whispers every so often about some priest somewhere, but it is a mistake to think that rank and file Catholics turned blind eyes to child abuse.
It wasn't discussed, but dismissed. I know personally that my treatment at the hands of a few psychopathic nuns (scissors pressed into the back; being locked in a closet, etc.) was scoffed at because of course nuns wouldn't do such things.

It wasn't until much later when the stories about the sex abuse was overwhelming did the idea that perhaps that system was in need of overhaul become accepted. In my experience.

Last edited by Resume; 15th November 2012 at 04:50 AM.
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Old 15th November 2012, 07:19 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by mutile View Post
The pope decides the values of catholics, if catholics use birth control they are hypocrites.

The pope speaks for God if you have a problem with his repugnant views, take it up with God.
Would you happen to have contact info on the god person? Maybe his tweet address>
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Old 15th November 2012, 07:21 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
How do you call somebody which believe in everything catholic do, but refuse /or is not aware of) the dogma of papal infailibility ?

What is their religion ?

because if you say they are not catholic, then what are they ?

BTW from my experience it seems they are the majority around the "so called catholic" country I lived in. In fact I am pretty sure many catholic don't even know about this papal infailibility.
But, we all know quite a bit about papal bull!!!!!
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Old 15th November 2012, 07:23 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
It wasn't discussed, but dismissed. I know personally that my treatment at the hands of a few psychopathic nuns (scissors pressed into the back; being locked in a closet, etc.) was scoffed at because of course nuns wouldn't do such things.
. . . or it was accepted but not considered abusive. I know that sounds crazy to most folks today, but my folks sent us to Catholic school in large part because they knew the nuns there would be free to smack us upside the head when we needed it. Their perception was that public schools were discipline-free environments in which learning was compromised by disruptive students. At our school the nuns took no such crap and those disruptive kids didn't last long.
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Old 15th November 2012, 07:26 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
. . . or it was accepted but not considered abusive. I know that sounds crazy to most folks today, but my folks sent us to Catholic school in large part because they knew the nuns there would be free to smack us upside the head when we needed it. Their perception was that public schools were discipline-free environments in which learning was compromised by disruptive students. At our school the nuns took no such crap and those disruptive kids didn't last long.
I know for sure that my parents valued the belt (the item and the act) but balked at the idea of a penguin sticking scissors into your back.

"I don't believe that, are you sure?"

Also, our nuns had a wide interpretation of disruptive from daydreaming to wanting to take a piss.

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Old 15th November 2012, 07:51 AM   #66
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The Catholic bashing on page 1 was a little disturbing, especially the "...you are scum" comment.

I'm an atheist from an Irish Catholic background.
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Old 15th November 2012, 07:59 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost View Post
The Catholic bashing on page 1 was a little disturbing, especially the "...you are scum" comment.

I'm an atheist from an Irish Catholic background.
mainly pope bashing, i thought.
ratzinger is a *********** nazi.

i was a cradle catholic.
i got better.
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Old 15th November 2012, 08:19 AM   #68
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Yeah, I just found it ironic that given the thread title, the thread filled up with Catholic-phobic bigotry.
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Old 15th November 2012, 08:37 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
How do you call somebody which believe in everything catholic do, but refuse /or is not aware of) the dogma of papal infailibility ?

What is their religion ?

because if you say they are not catholic, then what are they ?

BTW from my experience it seems they are the majority around the "so called catholic" country I lived in. In fact I am pretty sure many catholic don't even know about this papal infailibility.
What you're describing looks like the Old Catholic Church. They originated with local Dutch catholics electing a new bishop of Utrecht without consent of the Pope, and were influenced by the French Jansenist movement. They reject papal infallibility, don't require celibacy, ordain women as priests and have a much more healthier outlook on issues like homosexuality and abortion than the RCC.
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Old 16th November 2012, 11:32 AM   #70
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Here's my take on the original topic...

If you don't want to marry any two people in your church for any reason, fine. But don't attempt to influence secular law and force people to your way of thinking. The whole point of faith-based religions is the faith part; you have to be convinced, not forced.
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Old 16th November 2012, 11:47 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by sopclod View Post
The whole point of faith-based religions is the faith part; you have to be convinced, not forced.
Well not so much convinced, but blessed to receive the gift of being able to believe despite all empirical evidence to the contrary.
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Old 16th November 2012, 09:14 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Is it so wrong to expect more of people? To expect folks to think and do the right thing? Sure not many people do, but that doesn't suddenly make it allright.
No argument there, but I would say "hope for" rather than "expect".
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Old 16th November 2012, 10:28 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost View Post
The Catholic bashing on page 1 was a little disturbing, especially the "...you are scum" comment.

I'm an atheist from an Irish Catholic background.
Do you find opposition to a group disturbing, regardless of what crimes that group has committed?

Would you be disturbed if someone commented that people who knowingly finance terrorists are scum?

When you are communicating with people who insult pedophiles, do you mention that you find it disturbing the amount of hate directed their way?
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Old 17th November 2012, 07:13 AM   #74
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Three penetrating questions, mutile, which have proved to me that Catholics are scum. I now agree with the statement because your reasoning is profound.
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Old 17th November 2012, 11:01 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by mutile View Post
Would you be disturbed if someone commented that people who knowingly finance terrorists are scum?
Don't we all do that when we buy gasoline, or choose a lifestyle that requires gasoline?
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Old 17th November 2012, 06:10 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost View Post
Three penetrating questions, mutile, which have proved to me that Catholics are scum. I now agree with the statement because your reasoning is profound.
Your sarcasm has forced me to evaluate whether the child rape and unnecessary deaths caused by the Catholic Church is important, especially when there are people who are bored on a Sunday and need somewhere to go.
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Old 17th November 2012, 06:14 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
Don't we all do that when we buy gasoline, or choose a lifestyle that requires gasoline?
yes.
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Old 17th November 2012, 06:18 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
Don't we all do that when we buy gasoline, or choose a lifestyle that requires gasoline?
Do you not have a problem with giving money to a terrorist organization because we all do it?
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Old 18th November 2012, 08:36 AM   #79
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Blah blah blah HITLER




Originally Posted by Modified View Post
If they were the kind of people who thought deeply about religion, then chances are they would have left already. You might think that people shouldn't be that way, but that is how most of them are.
This is an excellent point, and one of the reasons it is hard for me to think of rank and file Catholics as "scum".

One thing I would like to address is that the Catholic identity is wrapped up in way more than just the relationship between the institution of the church and its followers. In my city, two high schools existed cross-corner at the same intersection. One was named after a saint, and the other was named after the Queen. Each school had rich and poor within, but overall one was the rich school and the other the poor school. English Protestants versus the Irish, Scottish, French, etc., Catholics. And historically, the English Protestants would have been the ones dominating the business and political scene in the region. By the time I went to high school, most of the kids didn't give much of a crap about religion, but much of the socio-economic class division remained. It was only about 5 years ago that both schools closed and an amalgamated school replaced them. I may as well just say, I'm talking about Halifax, Nova Scotia.

Take a look at Quebec, if you dare. They still have a Catholic and a Protestant school board. Many of the French have a lot of spite and resentment (and defiance, tabarnak!) towards the Church, relating to past collusion between the institution of the church and the government, which resulted in policies good for politicians and terrible for the people. Encouraged ignorance and thereby poverty. Institutionalized physical abuse and the coverup of same. Awful stuff. But, what, you think many Quebec French would ever convert to Protestantism? Jamais, never.

I was raised as an atheist, so what do I know about it. But it appears to me that the Catholic identity has a lot to do with ethnicity, language, class and community. Also, for some reason, I know a lot of people that used to be Christians - were raised as such and then quit. Protestants, Born Agains, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses. But if they have a Catholic background, they are more likely to see themselves as "lapsed" rather than "ex" catholics. Similar to Jews who are "non-practicing" rather than "former" Jews. And crapping on the pope seems like a pretty popular pastime amongst Catholics.

This isn't an apology for anyone, and personally I would like to see the end of all Abrahamic thought and culture. A kid can dream, right?

Last edited by porch; 18th November 2012 at 08:41 AM.
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Old 18th November 2012, 07:55 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by mutile View Post
Do you not have a problem with giving money to a terrorist organization because we all do it?
I guess if I had enough of a problem, I wouldn't do it.

Your own implication though, is that we are all scum.
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