SMH: Carl Sagan planned to blow up the moon with an atom bomb

Puppycow · 28th November 2012, 06:29 PM

US planned to blow up the moon (The Sydney Morning Herald)

Quote:

The United States planned to blow up the moon with a nuclear bomb during the cold war, according to reports.

The secret project, dubbed 'A Study of Lunar Research Flights' or 'Project A119', was allegedly devised by US military chiefs at the height of the space race in the late 1950s as a show of strength over the Soviet Union, scientists claim.

According to reports, the US would have used an atom bomb because a hydrogen bomb would have been too heavy.

Wow. Just one atom bomb would have been sufficient to blow up the whole moon. Who knew!

Quote:

Physicist Leonard Reiffel, who was involved with the project, said it would have intimidated the Soviet Union and given the US a morale boost after the Russians successfully launched Sputnik in 1957.

Yes. That sure would have been great for our morale, knowing that our government blew up the moon! Who needs it anyway!

Quote:

Also involved in the project was astronomer Carl Sagan, at the time a young graduate, who carried out calculations about the behaviour of dust and gas generated by the blast.

Just the dust and gas? What about all those large moon fragments from the death-star like explosion?

Quote:

The US government has never formally confirmed its involvement in the project.

The US Air Force declined to comment on the claims.

They're not denying it. That means it must be true!

Halfcentaur · 28th November 2012, 06:32 PM

I heard about this a day or two ago, but was meaning to get around to looking it up. Isn't the moon like, useful for shielding us from a lot of space debris? Man this is a nutty story.

Halfcentaur · 28th November 2012, 06:33 PM

Also I just thought they were making a big mushroom cloud for Russians to see, not actually blowing apart the moon.

Gawdzilla · 28th November 2012, 06:36 PM

Blow up the Moon. Big ball becomes smaller fragments. Small fragments go in all directions. Including straight at Earth. Pity Carl didn't think about that. It's not rocket science.

MontagK505 · 28th November 2012, 06:50 PM

I've heard a crazy story about Cocoa Cola wanting to use colored power on the moon to create the solar systems largest billboard.

xtifr · 28th November 2012, 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by MontagK505

I've heard a crazy story about Cocoa Cola wanting to use colored power on the moon to create the solar systems largest billboard.

It was Moka Cola. The Man Who Sold the Moon^WP.

BowlOfRed · 28th November 2012, 11:39 PM

I kept not understanding where the phrase "blow up" was coming from. I now suppose that they have modified the headline of the story. It no longer uses that phrase.

ETA
Never mind. I see a video link in the other thread over here -> http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=248439 with Brian Williams describing it exactly as destroying the moon.... ouch.

Puppycow · 29th November 2012, 01:37 AM

Originally Posted by BowlOfRed

I kept not understanding where the phrase "blow up" was coming from. I now suppose that they have modified the headline of the story. It no longer uses that phrase.

ETA
Never mind. I see a video link in the other thread over here -> http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=248439 with Brian Williams describing it exactly as destroying the moon.... ouch.

I see that they have edited the article. It was originally exactly as I quoted it in the OP, including the headline and the first sentence.

catsmate1 · 29th November 2012, 02:13 AM

Quote:

SMH: Carl Sagan planned to blow up the moon with an atom bomb

Given that Sgan was smart enough to know this was (and is) impossible I'd say no.

Originally Posted by Halfcentaur

I heard about this a day or two ago, but was meaning to get around to looking it up. Isn't the moon like, useful for shielding us from a lot of space debris? Man this is a nutty story.

And there are the tides. Plus the rain of lunar debris.

Originally Posted by MontagK505

I've heard a crazy story about Cocoa Cola wanting to use colored power on the moon to create the solar systems largest billboard.

The idea appeared in one of Arthur C. Clarke's short stories about a US/UK/SU moon mission. I think Heinlein used it also.

SezMe · 29th November 2012, 02:43 AM

Originally Posted by Halfcentaur

Also I just thought they were making a big mushroom cloud for Russians to see, not actually blowing apart the moon.

There has to be an atmosphere to create a mushroom cloud. Also, it would be like hushaboom since there would be no sound. Actually, getting the bomb to the moon would have been more impressive than the ka-boom.

ElMondoHummus · 29th November 2012, 07:17 AM

Speaking seriously:

I am extremely skeptical of this. It's an easy thing to say "Hey, look at the dumb Americans!" (and as an American, I do that myself to myself a lot

), but in reality, the physicists who would've been involved would've had a pretty good idea of the power of atomic bombs in relation to the size of the target and realized what a ludicrous idea this would be.

--------

Now, speaking, umm... well, less seriously (*ahem*): If this is for real, I already have a suspect.

... so if the project involved the illudium Q-36 explosive space modulator, we got him dead to rights.

dogjones · 29th November 2012, 08:15 AM

Originally Posted by catsmate1

Quote:

Originally Posted by MontagK505
I've heard a crazy story about Cocoa Cola wanting to use colored power on the moon to create the solar systems largest billboard

The idea appeared in one of Arthur C. Clarke's short stories about a US/UK/SU moon mission. I think Heinlein used it also.

Grant Naylor also used it in the Red Dwarf book - only it was done by triggering supernovae. Most amusing!

Horatius · 29th November 2012, 08:23 AM

They even made documentary about it:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Brainache · 29th November 2012, 02:00 PM

I vaguely remember reading something about this... Wasn't the idea to set off a large explosion on the Moon's surface and analyse the spectra of the flash to find out what sorts of minerals etc were there? Just like they did recently when they crashed a probe into it.

CapelDodger · 29th November 2012, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by SezMe

There has to be an atmosphere to create a mushroom cloud. Also, it would be like hushaboom since there would be no sound. Actually, getting the bomb to the moon would have been more impressive than the ka-boom.

At least they wouldn't have to get it back alive, which would have simplified matters. And you wouldn't have to tell anyone about the ones that missed or didn't go off.

CapelDodger · 29th November 2012, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by Brainache

I vaguely remember reading something about this... Wasn't the idea to set off a large explosion on the Moon's surface and analyse the spectra of the flash to find out what sorts of minerals etc were there? Just like they did recently when they crashed a probe into it.

This is an area where actuality, rational proposals, crackpot proposals and sci-fi all generally confound each other. Some crackpot proposals, for instance, were official. This was the 60's, remember, a place where any crazy theory can find a home. In the shadow of the Bomb and drugged-up to the lower lids, those were years when strange things happened.

shadron · 29th November 2012, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by Halfcentaur

I heard about this a day or two ago, but was meaning to get around to looking it up. Isn't the moon like, useful for shielding us from a lot of space debris? Man this is a nutty story.

Time for my roll-out about destroying the Earth with nukes:

The largest nuke ever exploded was 50 MT equiv; the sum total of all atomic weapons ever used is 510 MT. The Chicxulub meteor (responsible for dinosaur genocide) concentrated a grand 100,000,000 MT of energy release in a circle about 10 km across in the Caribbean. That amount of energy did not manage to make it through the 20km crust (single sheet of paper thin, if the Earth was a 3 meter diameter ball) into the mantle to expose it in any way. What makes you think anything we can do in the next 100 years might have any significant effect on the moon or its orbit around Earth?

shadron · 29th November 2012, 04:46 PM

By the way, Carl Sagan was a doctoral student, and he was hired to calculate the range of the debris thrown off by the blast. There is, AFAIK, no known idea of what he personally though about the plan; the idea didn't come to light until his biographer unearthed his involvement after his death.

Project A119^WP

billdun262 · 29th November 2012, 04:58 PM

The Soviets were considering sending a nuclear bomb to the moon at the same time. I guess both governments decided it really wasn't that good an idea.

shadron · 29th November 2012, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by dogjones

Originally Posted by catsmate1

Originally Posted by MontagK505

I've heard a crazy story about Cocoa Cola wanting to use colored power on the moon to create the solar systems largest billboard

The idea appeared in one of Arthur C. Clarke's short stories about a US/UK/SU moon mission. I think Heinlein used it also.

Grant Naylor also used it in the Red Dwarf book - only it was done by triggering supernovae. Most amusing!

I'll offer my favorite, from the Wizard of Speed and Time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...w60Ozg#t=4851s

28th November 2012, 06:29 PM	#1
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 15,754	SMH: Carl Sagan planned to blow up the moon with an atom bomb US planned to blow up the moon (The Sydney Morning Herald) Quote: The United States planned to blow up the moon with a nuclear bomb during the cold war, according to reports. The secret project, dubbed 'A Study of Lunar Research Flights' or 'Project A119', was allegedly devised by US military chiefs at the height of the space race in the late 1950s as a show of strength over the Soviet Union, scientists claim. According to reports, the US would have used an atom bomb because a hydrogen bomb would have been too heavy. Wow. Just one atom bomb would have been sufficient to blow up the whole moon. Who knew! Quote: Physicist Leonard Reiffel, who was involved with the project, said it would have intimidated the Soviet Union and given the US a morale boost after the Russians successfully launched Sputnik in 1957. Yes. That sure would have been great for our morale, knowing that our government blew up the moon! Who needs it anyway! Quote: Also involved in the project was astronomer Carl Sagan, at the time a young graduate, who carried out calculations about the behaviour of dust and gas generated by the blast. Just the dust and gas? What about all those large moon fragments from the death-star like explosion? Quote: The US government has never formally confirmed its involvement in the project. The US Air Force declined to comment on the claims. They're not denying it. That means it must be true!
	__________________ “Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them. With Major Major it had been all three.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

28th November 2012, 06:32 PM	#2
Halfcentaur Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 5,949	I heard about this a day or two ago, but was meaning to get around to looking it up. Isn't the moon like, useful for shielding us from a lot of space debris? Man this is a nutty story.
Halfcentaur Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 5,949

28th November 2012, 06:33 PM	#3
Halfcentaur Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 5,949	Also I just thought they were making a big mushroom cloud for Russians to see, not actually blowing apart the moon.
Halfcentaur Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 5,949

28th November 2012, 06:36 PM	#4
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,450	Blow up the Moon. Big ball becomes smaller fragments. Small fragments go in all directions. Including straight at Earth. Pity Carl didn't think about that. It's not rocket science.
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

28th November 2012, 06:50 PM	#5
MontagK505 Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Peoples Republick of Kalifornia Posts: 1,800	I've heard a crazy story about Cocoa Cola wanting to use colored power on the moon to create the solar systems largest billboard.
	__________________ Self deception is the root of all evil. Political correctness is linguistic Fascism. - P.D. James

28th November 2012, 11:10 PM	#6
xtifr Muse Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Sol III Posts: 563	Originally Posted by MontagK505 I've heard a crazy story about Cocoa Cola wanting to use colored power on the moon to create the solar systems largest billboard. It was Moka Cola. The Man Who Sold the Moon^WP.
	__________________ "Those who learn from history are doomed to watch others repeat it." -- Anonymous Slashdot poster "The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore." -- James Nicoll

28th November 2012, 11:39 PM	#7
BowlOfRed Muse Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Silicon Valley Posts: 534	I kept not understanding where the phrase "blow up" was coming from. I now suppose that they have modified the headline of the story. It no longer uses that phrase. ETA Never mind. I see a video link in the other thread over here -> http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=248439 with Brian Williams describing it exactly as destroying the moon.... ouch.
	Last edited by BowlOfRed; 28th November 2012 at 11:44 PM.

29th November 2012, 01:37 AM	#8
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 15,754	Originally Posted by BowlOfRed I kept not understanding where the phrase "blow up" was coming from. I now suppose that they have modified the headline of the story. It no longer uses that phrase. ETA Never mind. I see a video link in the other thread over here -> http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=248439 with Brian Williams describing it exactly as destroying the moon.... ouch. I see that they have edited the article. It was originally exactly as I quoted it in the OP, including the headline and the first sentence.
	__________________ “Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them. With Major Major it had been all three.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

29th November 2012, 02:13 AM	#9
catsmate1 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Dublin (the one in Ireland) Posts: 7,119	Quote: SMH: Carl Sagan planned to blow up the moon with an atom bomb Given that Sgan was smart enough to know this was (and is) impossible I'd say no. Originally Posted by Halfcentaur I heard about this a day or two ago, but was meaning to get around to looking it up. Isn't the moon like, useful for shielding us from a lot of space debris? Man this is a nutty story. And there are the tides. Plus the rain of lunar debris. Originally Posted by MontagK505 I've heard a crazy story about Cocoa Cola wanting to use colored power on the moon to create the solar systems largest billboard. The idea appeared in one of Arthur C. Clarke's short stories about a US/UK/SU moon mission. I think Heinlein used it also.
	__________________ Yes I gave in and configured an avatar.

29th November 2012, 02:43 AM	#10
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 16,369	Originally Posted by Halfcentaur Also I just thought they were making a big mushroom cloud for Russians to see, not actually blowing apart the moon. There has to be an atmosphere to create a mushroom cloud. Also, it would be like hushaboom since there would be no sound. Actually, getting the bomb to the moon would have been more impressive than the ka-boom.

29th November 2012, 07:17 AM	#11
ElMondoHummus 0.25 short of being half-witted Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Somewhere north of the South Pole Posts: 11,939	Speaking seriously: I am extremely skeptical of this. It's an easy thing to say "Hey, look at the dumb Americans!" (and as an American, I do that myself to myself a lot ), but in reality, the physicists who would've been involved would've had a pretty good idea of the power of atomic bombs in relation to the size of the target and realized what a ludicrous idea this would be. -------- Now, speaking, umm... well, less seriously (ahem): If this is for real, I already have a suspect. ... so if the project involved the illudium Q-36 explosive space modulator, we got him dead to rights.
	__________________ must take this very carefully....booze is wise men's drink..... -pillory "... I'm quite willing to have everyone use my rejection of the 9/11 conspiracy theory as a basis for assessing my intelligence, judgment, and trustworthiness" -Prof. Ann Althouse

29th November 2012, 08:15 AM	#12
dogjones Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Bermuda Posts: 1,281	Originally Posted by catsmate1 Quote: Originally Posted by MontagK505 I've heard a crazy story about Cocoa Cola wanting to use colored power on the moon to create the solar systems largest billboard The idea appeared in one of Arthur C. Clarke's short stories about a US/UK/SU moon mission. I think Heinlein used it also. Grant Naylor also used it in the Red Dwarf book - only it was done by triggering supernovae. Most amusing!
	__________________ It's great being ideologically flexible.

29th November 2012, 02:00 PM	#14
Brainache Nasty Brutish and Tall Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Knob Hill. Posts: 9,086	I vaguely remember reading something about this... Wasn't the idea to set off a large explosion on the Moon's surface and analyse the spectra of the flash to find out what sorts of minerals etc were there? Just like they did recently when they crashed a probe into it.
	__________________ Words cannot convey the vertiginous retching horror that enveloped me as I lost consciousness. - W. S. Burroughs Invert the prominent diaphragm!!!

29th November 2012, 04:23 PM	#15
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 16,742	Originally Posted by SezMe There has to be an atmosphere to create a mushroom cloud. Also, it would be like hushaboom since there would be no sound. Actually, getting the bomb to the moon would have been more impressive than the ka-boom. At least they wouldn't have to get it back alive, which would have simplified matters. And you wouldn't have to tell anyone about the ones that missed or didn't go off.
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

29th November 2012, 04:34 PM	#16
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 16,742	Originally Posted by Brainache I vaguely remember reading something about this... Wasn't the idea to set off a large explosion on the Moon's surface and analyse the spectra of the flash to find out what sorts of minerals etc were there? Just like they did recently when they crashed a probe into it. This is an area where actuality, rational proposals, crackpot proposals and sci-fi all generally confound each other. Some crackpot proposals, for instance, were official. This was the 60's, remember, a place where any crazy theory can find a home. In the shadow of the Bomb and drugged-up to the lower lids, those were years when strange things happened.
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

29th November 2012, 04:44 PM	#17
shadron Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 5,719	Originally Posted by Halfcentaur I heard about this a day or two ago, but was meaning to get around to looking it up. Isn't the moon like, useful for shielding us from a lot of space debris? Man this is a nutty story. Time for my roll-out about destroying the Earth with nukes: The largest nuke ever exploded was 50 MT equiv; the sum total of all atomic weapons ever used is 510 MT. The Chicxulub meteor (responsible for dinosaur genocide) concentrated a grand 100,000,000 MT of energy release in a circle about 10 km across in the Caribbean. That amount of energy did not manage to make it through the 20km crust (single sheet of paper thin, if the Earth was a 3 meter diameter ball) into the mantle to expose it in any way. What makes you think anything we can do in the next 100 years might have any significant effect on the moon or its orbit around Earth?

29th November 2012, 04:46 PM	#18
shadron Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 5,719	By the way, Carl Sagan was a doctoral student, and he was hired to calculate the range of the debris thrown off by the blast. There is, AFAIK, no known idea of what he personally though about the plan; the idea didn't come to light until his biographer unearthed his involvement after his death. Project A119^WP

29th November 2012, 04:58 PM	#19
billdun262 New Blood Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 13	The Soviets were considering sending a nuclear bomb to the moon at the same time. I guess both governments decided it really wasn't that good an idea.
billdun262 New Blood Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 13

29th November 2012, 05:14 PM	#20
shadron Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 5,719	Originally Posted by dogjones Originally Posted by catsmate1 Originally Posted by MontagK505 I've heard a crazy story about Cocoa Cola wanting to use colored power on the moon to create the solar systems largest billboard The idea appeared in one of Arthur C. Clarke's short stories about a US/UK/SU moon mission. I think Heinlein used it also. Grant Naylor also used it in the Red Dwarf book - only it was done by triggering supernovae. Most amusing! I'll offer my favorite, from the Wizard of Speed and Time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...w60Ozg#t=4851s