White guy shoots (and kills) black teen over loud music - Page 3

C_Felix · 28th November 2012, 03:40 PM

So.............

To sum up.........

From what I've read........

Michael Dunn pulls into a gas station.
Jordan Davis and his friends are in an SUV playing music, rather loudly.
Dunn asks the young adults in the SUV to lower their music.
Music is lowered.
Statements such as, "That mutha effer can't tell us to lower our music!" are said and the music is put on again, this time louder.
Dunn thinks he sees the barrel of a shotgun.
He takes his gun out of glove compartment.
He might have loaded it. I've read conflicting reports.
He shoots 8 or 9 times into the SUV.
Dunn's girlfriend returns from the store, gets in the car and they leave.

How about the simple course of action: Mind your own business, wait it out and deal with the music and leave!

fuelair · 28th November 2012, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by Ferguson

It's not about enjoyment, it's about showing off how loud (and by implication, how expensive) your audio system is.

THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

There are competitions (real ones with big prizes) for this.....

Mumbles · 28th November 2012, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by fuelair

THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

There are competitions (real ones with big prizes) for this.....

And there are also a lot of people who, sometimes, simply enjoy loud music. The car is no different than the home, the club, the concert, or the movie theater in this respect.

(Headphones are a bit different, since the bass can't literally make your seat shake, but a lot of people like those as well)

Newtons Bit · 28th November 2012, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by C_Felix

How about the simple course of action: Mind your own business, wait it out and deal with the music and leave!

Why?

CaptBang · 28th November 2012, 07:39 PM

Stand your ground laws were invented to help angry conservative white men get away with killing black people. Who didn't know this?

Redtail · 28th November 2012, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by Newtons Bit

Why?

Because if he had he wouldn't be going through this.

fuelair · 28th November 2012, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by CaptBang

Stand your ground laws were invented to help angry conservative white men get away with killing black people. Who didn't know this?

I didn't. I thought they were made so a New York or California homeowner (and others)(even apartment renters) did not have to run away from their homes, but could eliminate home invading scum without fear of having some DA jackoff try to have them arrested and tried and (for the DA noted) convicted by carefully picked jurors. The case here does not sound like SYG - unless one or more weapons are pointed at you, you do not get to fire at innocents (note, if one is, and the crowd it is being pointed from is dense, you are covered - theough if you fire a lot of shots, you just might become a felon - why I only practice center mass, center head and center gut (in case I am REALLY POed).

BStrong · 28th November 2012, 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by C_Felix

So.............

To sum up.........

From what I've read........

Michael Dunn pulls into a gas station.
Jordan Davis and his friends are in an SUV playing music, rather loudly.
Dunn asks the young adults in the SUV to lower their music.
Music is lowered.
Statements such as, "That mutha effer can't tell us to lower our music!" are said and the music is put on again, this time louder.
Dunn thinks he sees the barrel of a shotgun.
He takes his gun out of glove compartment.
He might have loaded it. I've read conflicting reports.
He shoots 8 or 9 times into the SUV.
Dunn's girlfriend returns from the store, gets in the car and they leave.

How about the simple course of action: Mind your own business, wait it out and deal with the music and leave!

^bingo^ there are very few situations that a individual law abiding citizen needs to stick their nose into in a public place, and loud music sure ain't one of them.

Have an issue? call 911 and split.

Newtons Bit · 28th November 2012, 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by Redtail

Because if he had he wouldn't be going through this.

How many often do people get shot when the question "could you turn that music down" is asked?

GrouchoMarxist · 28th November 2012, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by CaptBang

Stand your ground laws were invented to help angry conservative white men get away with killing black people. Who didn't know this?

John H. Rutherford, apparently.

Redtail · 28th November 2012, 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by Newtons Bit

How many often do people get shot when the question "could you turn that music down" is asked?

What?

Skeptic Ginger · 28th November 2012, 10:58 PM

Originally Posted by lobosrul

I guess I should rephrase: Did they stay there after the shooting until police arrived, or did they "peel-out" and flee the scene. Which is a perfectly valid response to being shot at multiple times, but a search afterwards doesn't prove much.

Not everyone with a dead friend in the car "flees the scene".

Skeptic Ginger · 28th November 2012, 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad

I hadn't seen anything about him thinking they might be in a gang at that point. The second he came out with that it became racist. Although perhaps he thinks all young people are in gangs. Or he lost his temper and is trying to fling enough mud around to make himself look better/like the victim.

I wasn't referring to gangs. The facts of life in the US are lots of people seeing 4 black teens in a car would be intimidated to some extent.

I don't know if that is the case or not. I was objecting to a hand wave dismissal that racism played a part.

Skeptic Ginger · 28th November 2012, 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by Polaris

I submit it's bordering on a form of violence. "I'm making this so goddamn loud that you're going to hear it and you don't have any choice in the matter!"

Loud music is a form of violence? Seriously?

Annoyance, sure. "Screw you", sure. But "violence", no way.

KatieG · 28th November 2012, 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by sarge

Frankly, I think it is unjustifiable to shoot someone that plays their music so loud that it annoys others, unless it is clear that the person playing the music is doing it with the intent to annoy.

If the person that is playing the music so loud it annoys is doing it intentionally AND is wearing their pants so low that the bottom of their ass shows, it is justifiable to set them on fire (the person, not the pants).

Last I checked, playing loud music is not a death penalty offense.

KatieG · 28th November 2012, 11:56 PM

Originally Posted by truethat

Sounds to me like he wanted to give the gang members a taste of their own medicine and thought he'd get away with it. Even if he fled the scene, he had to know there was a possibility that he had hit someone.

How does firing a loaded gun at vehicle whose occupants are playing loud music even equate? What kind of medicine?

KatieG · 29th November 2012, 12:00 AM

Originally Posted by Newtons Bit

Why?

You are in a public space. There are no rules for loud music at a convenience store unless the management makes them. All the guy had to do was get leave the store and take his business elsewhere.

Dunn's story is full of ****. He appears to be the aggressor.

Aepervius · 29th November 2012, 12:15 AM

Originally Posted by anglolawyer

Do you think you succeeded in avoiding judging?

Yep. I am not saying he is guilty, just that the action as reported looks suspect. There is a difference in my mind between accusing somebody, and assessing the reported action by journalist. And for you ?

3point14 · 29th November 2012, 12:45 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Loud music is a form of violence? Seriously?

Annoyance, sure. "Screw you", sure. But "violence", no way.

No, but I often think that the purpose behind some people playing loud music is not so they can listen to it, but surely for the effect it has on others.

anglolawyer · 29th November 2012, 01:36 AM

Originally Posted by Aepervius

Yep. I am not saying he is guilty, just that the action as reported looks suspect. There is a difference in my mind between accusing somebody, and assessing the reported action by journalist. And for you ?

Oh, my mind's made up - guilty

! Next case please.

DreamingNaiad · 29th November 2012, 02:51 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

I wasn't referring to gangs. The facts of life in the US are lots of people seeing 4 black teens in a car would be intimidated to some extent.

I don't know if that is the case or not. I was objecting to a hand wave dismissal that racism played a part.

And I object to every crime by a white person against a black person being instantly characterised as racist.

It's a pet peeve

Ferguson · 29th November 2012, 03:43 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Loud music is a form of violence? Seriously?

Annoyance, sure. "Screw you", sure. But "violence", no way.

He did said "bordering on, " not quite violence. I tend to agree, it depends on the volume, if it's loud enough that my ribcage is vibrating and I start to feel nauseous, and/or my rearview mirror is vibrating too much to be useful, etc. I'd consider that more "violent" than, say, a shove to get out of the way on the sidewalk.

anglolawyer · 29th November 2012, 04:13 AM

Originally Posted by Ferguson

He did said "bordering on, " not quite violence. I tend to agree, it depends on the volume, if it's loud enough that my ribcage is vibrating and I start to feel nauseous, and/or my rearview mirror is vibrating too much to be useful, etc. I'd consider that more "violent" than, say, a shove to get out of the way on the sidewalk.

If you regularly played music that loud over the garden fence here in England a court would probably issue a restraining order at the suit of the neighbour (in private nuisance) and the local authority would also be likely to take a hand upon complaint being made. Why you get a free pass when out and about in the car is anyone's guess. Still pumping their SUV full of bullets does seem slightly over the top.

Here's another thing. All you gun-toting Americans are presumably pretty skilful with those weapons of yours, trained and such. If you want to make a point by firing into the vehicle without hurting anyone, how hard would that be? I mean, I think even I could manage that. A few shots through the bonnet, shred a couple of tyres, blow the aerial off etc. How come he actually killed a guy, supposedly without meaning to?

Foolmewunz · 29th November 2012, 04:49 AM

Originally Posted by anglolawyer

If you regularly played music that loud over the garden fence here in England a court would probably issue a restraining order at the suit of the neighbour (in private nuisance) and the local authority would also be likely to take a hand upon complaint being made. Why you get a free pass when out and about in the car is anyone's guess. Still pumping their SUV full of bullets does seem slightly over the top.

Here's another thing. All you gun-toting Americans are presumably pretty skilful with those weapons of yours, trained and such. If you want to make a point by firing into the vehicle without hurting anyone, how hard would that be? I mean, I think even I could manage that. A few shots through the bonnet, shred a couple of tyres, blow the aerial off etc. How come he actually killed a guy, supposedly without meaning to?

As to the proficiency, that depends on who you ask. If you ask a competitive shooter, he/she will probably tell you that for the average gun owner a pistol is a fairly inaccurate weapon. Ask some of the chest-thumpers on forums (this one included) and they can shoot off the proboscis of a mosquito at two hundred meters,... blindfolded,... in a tornado,...

As to the noise thing,... You guys need to live in Asia. Noise is a part of the culture here. Think of their ideas of celebrating... gongs, noise-makers, fireworks, drums.... The noise is to chase the spirits away.

When I want to tear my hair out because I can hear a thumping base line from a block away, my wife doesn't even notice it. When she drives up late, I can sometimes hear the car radio even when I'm inside with the TV on. When I ask her to think of the neighbors (all of whom are behind unlighted windows so already asleep), she looks at me like I'm from Pluto.

On any weekend evening, from dusk 'til well after midnight, we'll have parties full of teens and young adults on the Baht Bus - that's a converted large pickup truck that seats about eight, but which you can cram 20 onto if you hang them off the sides and back. The most popular Baht Bus to rent is the one with the biggest speakers, so the whole bus drances (drive + dance) through the streets and if you get stuck in a traffic jam or on a slow street adjacent to one, you can have all that music in your face for an hour. 20 to 24 idiotic and drunken teenagers on a Baht Bus can probably seem pretty threatening. Yet, no one I know of here has ever shot anyone over the noise.

sarge · 29th November 2012, 05:02 AM

Originally Posted by KatieG

Last I checked, playing loud music is not a death penalty offense.

Of course it is a capital offense - a guy was just executed for it.*

anglolawyer · 29th November 2012, 05:40 AM

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz

As to the proficiency, that depends on who you ask. If you ask a competitive shooter, he/she will probably tell you that for the average gun owner a pistol is a fairly inaccurate weapon. Ask some of the chest-thumpers on forums (this one included) and they can shoot off the proboscis of a mosquito at two hundred meters,... blindfolded,... in a tornado,...

As to the noise thing,... You guys need to live in Asia. Noise is a part of the culture here. Think of their ideas of celebrating... gongs, noise-makers, fireworks, drums.... The noise is to chase the spirits away.

When I want to tear my hair out because I can hear a thumping base line from a block away, my wife doesn't even notice it. When she drives up late, I can sometimes hear the car radio even when I'm inside with the TV on. When I ask her to think of the neighbors (all of whom are behind unlighted windows so already asleep), she looks at me like I'm from Pluto.

On any weekend evening, from dusk 'til well after midnight, we'll have parties full of teens and young adults on the Baht Bus - that's a converted large pickup truck that seats about eight, but which you can cram 20 onto if you hang them off the sides and back. The most popular Baht Bus to rent is the one with the biggest speakers, so the whole bus drances (drive + dance) through the streets and if you get stuck in a traffic jam or on a slow street adjacent to one, you can have all that music in your face for an hour. 20 to 24 idiotic and drunken teenagers on a Baht Bus can probably seem pretty threatening. Yet, no one I know of here has ever shot anyone over the noise.

From a couple of yards?

Nessie · 29th November 2012, 06:00 AM

Originally Posted by triforcharity

And note that none of the other Americans that have posted in this article, are calling this a justified shooting or anything of the sort.

I know, I saw that. I see others are agreeing it looks like a spurious attempt to claim self defence.

Nessie · 29th November 2012, 06:04 AM

Originally Posted by anglolawyer

From a couple of yards?

Yes, it is amazing how inaccurate the shooter is, even when trained, the weapon is blamed for being inaccurate, but we are also talking about the person firing it

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_1...shot-accuracy/

" According to a 2008 analysis of NYPD firearms discharge data done by the New York Times, between 1996-2006 officers hit their intended target about 34 percent of the time."

BenBurch · 29th November 2012, 06:05 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

No, it has almost no similarities to the Trayvon Martin case.

Except wrongful homicide.

Newtons Bit · 29th November 2012, 06:22 AM

Originally Posted by KatieG

You are in a public space. There are no rules for loud music at a convenience store unless the management makes them. All the guy had to do was get leave the store and take his business elsewhere.

Dunn's story is full of ****. He appears to be the aggressor.

Most cities have noise ordinances.

Foolmewunz · 29th November 2012, 06:30 AM

Originally Posted by Newtons Bit

Most cities have noise ordinances.

Is there a bag limit on noisemakers in your state? I know they tried to set a national limit on jaywalkers, but they couldn't get it ratified. I'm not sure about noisemakers, though.

Newtons Bit · 29th November 2012, 06:34 AM

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz

Is there a bag limit on noisemakers in your state? I know they tried to set a national limit on jaywalkers, but they couldn't get it ratified. I'm not sure about noisemakers, though.

No, we do no bag limit hunts for coyotes (not the human type). Shooting people because they're jerks remains illegal. But thanks for the straw.

FenerFan · 29th November 2012, 06:53 AM

Originally Posted by Newtons Bit

Most cities have noise ordinances.

It's a strange coincidence that a Tampa ordinance about loud music coming from cars is being challenged in the state Supreme Court. As far as I can find out no final ruling has been issued. Here's some background:
http://www.tampabay.com/news/publics...cle1169129.ece

A link to FL Supreme Court
http://jweb.flcourts.org/pls/docket/...asenumber=1166

Catalano was listening to a Justin Timberlake song when he was pulled over, so the officer didn't draw on him.

Polaris · 29th November 2012, 07:01 AM

Originally Posted by FenerFan

It's a strange coincidence that a Tampa ordinance about loud music coming from cars is being challenged in the state Supreme Court. As far as I can find out no final ruling has been issued. Here's some background:
http://www.tampabay.com/news/publics...cle1169129.ece

A link to FL Supreme Court
http://jweb.flcourts.org/pls/docket/...asenumber=1166

Catalano was listening to a Justin Timberlake song when he was pulled over, so the officer didn't draw on him.

Being shot would be preferable to having that become recorded for all time in US Constitutional law.

Nessie · 29th November 2012, 07:48 AM

The best thing to do with chavs in a car with a powerful ICE is to wait till they go home and want some peace to sleep and then blast them with music so disturbing them.

Anyone who is up for annoying others always fails the golden rule.

lobosrul · 29th November 2012, 08:15 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Not everyone with a dead friend in the car "flees the scene".

Huh? How would they even know he was dead. If someone is shooting at me, and I'm in the driver seat, my first instinct will be to hit the gas and flee the scene. Then if one of the passengers has been hit, it would be to go to the gas station.

My point is if a search was conducted after they had left, and no gun was found, then its pretty inconclusive. If the vehicle never left, and security footage can show no one left with a shotgun, and a search by police found no shotgun, then this guy has absolutely no defense. And that doesn't mean I think he's off the hook if search was inconclusive.

Edit: Maybe, you thought by saying "flee the scene" I was insinuating they did something wrong by immediately leaving at high speed, which I wasn't. And that is if they actually did, which I still haven't seen established one way or the other.

Quinn · 29th November 2012, 08:22 AM

What are the odds that the object Dunn thought was a gun barrel was actually a bag of Skittles?

lobosrul · 29th November 2012, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by Nessie

Yes, it is amazing how inaccurate the shooter is, even when trained, the weapon is blamed for being inaccurate, but we are also talking about the person firing it

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_1...shot-accuracy/

" According to a 2008 analysis of NYPD firearms discharge data done by the New York Times, between 1996-2006 officers hit their intended target about 34 percent of the time."

You know I think accuracy might just go way way down, when your in a life or death situation as compared to shooting a stationary target that doesn't shoot back. All that adrenaline etc, being in a big ass hurry to shoot them first, plus darkness will severely hamper accuracy. An extremely heavy trigger pull, like the NYPD sets on their Glocks, won't help either.

BStrong · 29th November 2012, 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by lobosrul

You know I think accuracy might just go way way down, when your in a life or death situation as compared to shooting a stationary target that doesn't shoot back. All that adrenaline etc, being in a big ass hurry to shoot them first, plus darkness will severely hamper accuracy. An extremely heavy trigger pull, like the NYPD sets on their Glocks, won't help either.

The sad fact is that unless you're talking about high-speed/low drag military units that run range training every day, there are always more misses than hits.

In examining individual incidents with the physical evidence in front of you, trained officers that keep up on training in between requals run up the hit probability average, but even then you only get to maybe 50-60% rounds on target.

The NYC trigger in the Glock isn't exactly a problem if an individual trains and has good follow through on the trigger - but practice is the key. If the agency doesn't have the budget to run a good training program on the agencies dime, few officers drop the money required to go through 1K rds. a month in training.

In my Dept. I was able to get approximately 30-35% of officers to commit to weekly training on a regular basis in any given year, including the tactical team.

FenerFan · 29th November 2012, 09:09 AM

This is from the Michigan Chronicle. It has the first statement, that I have seen, from his lawyer about what the guys in the SUV supposedly said to Dunn: "Kill that MF...that MF dead...you dead B."

http://www.michronicleonline.com/ind...f-jordan-davis

Still, no shotgun has been found. No word about what the police have learned from the other person/people in the SUV. I wouldn't expect that the police would release any witness statements anyway.

Also, according to a news report out of Jacksonville, Dunn had left his son's wedding reception early to go back to his hotel. The reason: to go take care of his puppy. Awwwwwww.

28th November 2012, 03:40 PM	#81
C_Felix Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Right outside Raleigh, NC Posts: 1,041	So............. To sum up......... From what I've read........ Michael Dunn pulls into a gas station. Jordan Davis and his friends are in an SUV playing music, rather loudly. Dunn asks the young adults in the SUV to lower their music. Music is lowered. Statements such as, "That mutha effer can't tell us to lower our music!" are said and the music is put on again, this time louder. Dunn thinks he sees the barrel of a shotgun. He takes his gun out of glove compartment. He might have loaded it. I've read conflicting reports. He shoots 8 or 9 times into the SUV. Dunn's girlfriend returns from the store, gets in the car and they leave. How about the simple course of action: Mind your own business, wait it out and deal with the music and leave!
	__________________ No, his mind is not for rent To any god or government. Always hopeful, yet discontent, He knows changes aren't permanent, But change is.

28th November 2012, 04:18 PM	#82
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,961	Originally Posted by Ferguson It's not about enjoyment, it's about showing off how loud (and by implication, how expensive) your audio system is. THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ There are competitions (real ones with big prizes) for this.....
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,961	__________________ There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!

28th November 2012, 06:25 PM	#83
Mumbles Muse Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 627	Originally Posted by fuelair THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ There are competitions (real ones with big prizes) for this..... And there are also a lot of people who, sometimes, simply enjoy loud music. The car is no different than the home, the club, the concert, or the movie theater in this respect. (Headphones are a bit different, since the bass can't literally make your seat shake, but a lot of people like those as well)
Mumbles Muse Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 627

28th November 2012, 07:27 PM	#84
Newtons Bit Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,920	Originally Posted by C_Felix How about the simple course of action: Mind your own business, wait it out and deal with the music and leave! Why?
Newtons Bit Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,920	__________________ "Structural Engineering is the art of molding materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyze so as to understand forces we cannot really assess in such a way that the community at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our own ignorance." James E Amrhein My website.

28th November 2012, 07:48 PM	#86
Redtail Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9,304	Originally Posted by Newtons Bit Why? Because if he had he wouldn't be going through this.
Redtail Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9,304	__________________ AVENGERS!!!.. Turn off the dark!

28th November 2012, 07:39 PM	#85
CaptBang Scholar Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: NYC Posts: 117	Stand your ground laws were invented to help angry conservative white men get away with killing black people. Who didn't know this?

28th November 2012, 07:58 PM	#87
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,961	Originally Posted by CaptBang Stand your ground laws were invented to help angry conservative white men get away with killing black people. Who didn't know this? I didn't. I thought they were made so a New York or California homeowner (and others)(even apartment renters) did not have to run away from their homes, but could eliminate home invading scum without fear of having some DA jackoff try to have them arrested and tried and (for the DA noted) convicted by carefully picked jurors. The case here does not sound like SYG - unless one or more weapons are pointed at you, you do not get to fire at innocents (note, if one is, and the crowd it is being pointed from is dense, you are covered - theough if you fire a lot of shots, you just might become a felon - why I only practice center mass, center head and center gut (in case I am REALLY POed).
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,961	__________________ There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!

28th November 2012, 08:22 PM	#88
BStrong Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: California Posts: 3,836	Originally Posted by C_Felix So............. To sum up......... From what I've read........ Michael Dunn pulls into a gas station. Jordan Davis and his friends are in an SUV playing music, rather loudly. Dunn asks the young adults in the SUV to lower their music. Music is lowered. Statements such as, "That mutha effer can't tell us to lower our music!" are said and the music is put on again, this time louder. Dunn thinks he sees the barrel of a shotgun. He takes his gun out of glove compartment. He might have loaded it. I've read conflicting reports. He shoots 8 or 9 times into the SUV. Dunn's girlfriend returns from the store, gets in the car and they leave. How about the simple course of action: Mind your own business, wait it out and deal with the music and leave! ^bingo^ there are very few situations that a individual law abiding citizen needs to stick their nose into in a public place, and loud music sure ain't one of them. Have an issue? call 911 and split.

28th November 2012, 08:35 PM	#89
Newtons Bit Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,920	Originally Posted by Redtail Because if he had he wouldn't be going through this. How many often do people get shot when the question "could you turn that music down" is asked?
Newtons Bit Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,920	__________________ "Structural Engineering is the art of molding materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyze so as to understand forces we cannot really assess in such a way that the community at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our own ignorance." James E Amrhein My website.

28th November 2012, 09:04 PM	#90
GrouchoMarxist Cowardly insulter of Buddhism Join Date: May 2008 Location: Surly Bonds correctional facility Posts: 940	Originally Posted by CaptBang Stand your ground laws were invented to help angry conservative white men get away with killing black people. Who didn't know this? John H. Rutherford, apparently.
	__________________ I can't believe that having said what I said was interpreted as having been what I said when I said it, because I said it where I said it, when I said it, and who I said it to. Only in America!

28th November 2012, 09:13 PM	#91
Redtail Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9,304	Originally Posted by Newtons Bit How many often do people get shot when the question "could you turn that music down" is asked? What?
Redtail Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9,304	__________________ AVENGERS!!!.. Turn off the dark!

28th November 2012, 10:58 PM	#92
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,646	Originally Posted by lobosrul I guess I should rephrase: Did they stay there after the shooting until police arrived, or did they "peel-out" and flee the scene. Which is a perfectly valid response to being shot at multiple times, but a search afterwards doesn't prove much. Not everyone with a dead friend in the car "flees the scene".
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

28th November 2012, 11:00 PM	#93
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,646	Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad I hadn't seen anything about him thinking they might be in a gang at that point. The second he came out with that it became racist. Although perhaps he thinks all young people are in gangs. Or he lost his temper and is trying to fling enough mud around to make himself look better/like the victim. I wasn't referring to gangs. The facts of life in the US are lots of people seeing 4 black teens in a car would be intimidated to some extent. I don't know if that is the case or not. I was objecting to a hand wave dismissal that racism played a part.
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

28th November 2012, 11:03 PM	#94
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,646	Originally Posted by Polaris I submit it's bordering on a form of violence. "I'm making this so goddamn loud that you're going to hear it and you don't have any choice in the matter!" Loud music is a form of violence? Seriously? Annoyance, sure. "Screw you", sure. But "violence", no way.
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

28th November 2012, 11:44 PM	#95
KatieG Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: at the end of the Oregon Trail Posts: 1,280	Originally Posted by sarge Frankly, I think it is unjustifiable to shoot someone that plays their music so loud that it annoys others, unless it is clear that the person playing the music is doing it with the intent to annoy. If the person that is playing the music so loud it annoys is doing it intentionally AND is wearing their pants so low that the bottom of their ass shows, it is justifiable to set them on fire (the person, not the pants). Last I checked, playing loud music is not a death penalty offense.
	__________________ Three things cannot long be hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth. -Confucius A horse is like a best friend. They`re always there to nuzzle you and make your life a better place. Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

28th November 2012, 11:56 PM	#96
KatieG Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: at the end of the Oregon Trail Posts: 1,280	Originally Posted by truethat Sounds to me like he wanted to give the gang members a taste of their own medicine and thought he'd get away with it. Even if he fled the scene, he had to know there was a possibility that he had hit someone. How does firing a loaded gun at vehicle whose occupants are playing loud music even equate? What kind of medicine?
	__________________ Three things cannot long be hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth. -Confucius A horse is like a best friend. They`re always there to nuzzle you and make your life a better place. Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

29th November 2012, 12:00 AM	#97
KatieG Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: at the end of the Oregon Trail Posts: 1,280	Originally Posted by Newtons Bit Why? You are in a public space. There are no rules for loud music at a convenience store unless the management makes them. All the guy had to do was get leave the store and take his business elsewhere. Dunn's story is full of ****. He appears to be the aggressor.
	__________________ Three things cannot long be hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth. -Confucius A horse is like a best friend. They`re always there to nuzzle you and make your life a better place. Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

29th November 2012, 12:15 AM	#98
Aepervius Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bierland. I mean , germany. Posts: 7,773	Originally Posted by anglolawyer Do you think you succeeded in avoiding judging? Yep. I am not saying he is guilty, just that the action as reported looks suspect. There is a difference in my mind between accusing somebody, and assessing the reported action by journalist. And for you ?
	__________________ Omnes Blessant Ultima necat "I want, and this is my last and most dear wish, I want that the last of the king be strangled with the guts of the last priest" (Jean Meslier / 1664-1729 / Testament) A very early french atheist, a catholic priest in life.

29th November 2012, 12:45 AM	#99
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London ish Posts: 3,601	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Loud music is a form of violence? Seriously? Annoyance, sure. "Screw you", sure. But "violence", no way. No, but I often think that the purpose behind some people playing loud music is not so they can listen to it, but surely for the effect it has on others.
	__________________ Cull the delusional.

29th November 2012, 01:36 AM	#100
anglolawyer Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: surrey, england Posts: 3,329	Originally Posted by Aepervius Yep. I am not saying he is guilty, just that the action as reported looks suspect. There is a difference in my mind between accusing somebody, and assessing the reported action by journalist. And for you ? Oh, my mind's made up - guilty! Next case please.

29th November 2012, 02:51 AM	#101
DreamingNaiad Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: The forgotten sweet abyss Posts: 465	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger I wasn't referring to gangs. The facts of life in the US are lots of people seeing 4 black teens in a car would be intimidated to some extent. I don't know if that is the case or not. I was objecting to a hand wave dismissal that racism played a part. And I object to every crime by a white person against a black person being instantly characterised as racist. It's a pet peeve

29th November 2012, 03:43 AM	#102
Ferguson Muse Join Date: May 2009 Location: Lansing, MI Posts: 838	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Loud music is a form of violence? Seriously? Annoyance, sure. "Screw you", sure. But "violence", no way. He did said "bordering on, " not quite violence. I tend to agree, it depends on the volume, if it's loud enough that my ribcage is vibrating and I start to feel nauseous, and/or my rearview mirror is vibrating too much to be useful, etc. I'd consider that more "violent" than, say, a shove to get out of the way on the sidewalk.

29th November 2012, 04:13 AM	#103
anglolawyer Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: surrey, england Posts: 3,329	Originally Posted by Ferguson He did said "bordering on, " not quite violence. I tend to agree, it depends on the volume, if it's loud enough that my ribcage is vibrating and I start to feel nauseous, and/or my rearview mirror is vibrating too much to be useful, etc. I'd consider that more "violent" than, say, a shove to get out of the way on the sidewalk. If you regularly played music that loud over the garden fence here in England a court would probably issue a restraining order at the suit of the neighbour (in private nuisance) and the local authority would also be likely to take a hand upon complaint being made. Why you get a free pass when out and about in the car is anyone's guess. Still pumping their SUV full of bullets does seem slightly over the top. Here's another thing. All you gun-toting Americans are presumably pretty skilful with those weapons of yours, trained and such. If you want to make a point by firing into the vehicle without hurting anyone, how hard would that be? I mean, I think even I could manage that. A few shots through the bonnet, shred a couple of tyres, blow the aerial off etc. How come he actually killed a guy, supposedly without meaning to?

29th November 2012, 04:49 AM	#104
Foolmewunz Grammar Resistance Leader Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pattaya, Thailand Posts: 20,534	Originally Posted by anglolawyer If you regularly played music that loud over the garden fence here in England a court would probably issue a restraining order at the suit of the neighbour (in private nuisance) and the local authority would also be likely to take a hand upon complaint being made. Why you get a free pass when out and about in the car is anyone's guess. Still pumping their SUV full of bullets does seem slightly over the top. Here's another thing. All you gun-toting Americans are presumably pretty skilful with those weapons of yours, trained and such. If you want to make a point by firing into the vehicle without hurting anyone, how hard would that be? I mean, I think even I could manage that. A few shots through the bonnet, shred a couple of tyres, blow the aerial off etc. How come he actually killed a guy, supposedly without meaning to? As to the proficiency, that depends on who you ask. If you ask a competitive shooter, he/she will probably tell you that for the average gun owner a pistol is a fairly inaccurate weapon. Ask some of the chest-thumpers on forums (this one included) and they can shoot off the proboscis of a mosquito at two hundred meters,... blindfolded,... in a tornado,... As to the noise thing,... You guys need to live in Asia. Noise is a part of the culture here. Think of their ideas of celebrating... gongs, noise-makers, fireworks, drums.... The noise is to chase the spirits away. When I want to tear my hair out because I can hear a thumping base line from a block away, my wife doesn't even notice it. When she drives up late, I can sometimes hear the car radio even when I'm inside with the TV on. When I ask her to think of the neighbors (all of whom are behind unlighted windows so already asleep), she looks at me like I'm from Pluto. On any weekend evening, from dusk 'til well after midnight, we'll have parties full of teens and young adults on the Baht Bus - that's a converted large pickup truck that seats about eight, but which you can cram 20 onto if you hang them off the sides and back. The most popular Baht Bus to rent is the one with the biggest speakers, so the whole bus drances (drive + dance) through the streets and if you get stuck in a traffic jam or on a slow street adjacent to one, you can have all that music in your face for an hour. 20 to 24 idiotic and drunken teenagers on a Baht Bus can probably seem pretty threatening. Yet, no one I know of here has ever shot anyone over the noise.
	__________________ Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele Don't you wish someone had slapped baby Hitler really really hard? [i] Dr. Buzzo 02/13 [i]

29th November 2012, 05:02 AM	#105
sarge Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Fayetteville, NC Posts: 2,360	Originally Posted by KatieG Last I checked, playing loud music is not a death penalty offense. Of course it is a capital offense - a guy was just executed for it.*
	__________________ I'm a not-so-strict constructionist, fiscally conservative, social liberal. Exactly which party represents me?

29th November 2012, 05:40 AM	#106
anglolawyer Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: surrey, england Posts: 3,329	Originally Posted by Foolmewunz As to the proficiency, that depends on who you ask. If you ask a competitive shooter, he/she will probably tell you that for the average gun owner a pistol is a fairly inaccurate weapon. Ask some of the chest-thumpers on forums (this one included) and they can shoot off the proboscis of a mosquito at two hundred meters,... blindfolded,... in a tornado,... As to the noise thing,... You guys need to live in Asia. Noise is a part of the culture here. Think of their ideas of celebrating... gongs, noise-makers, fireworks, drums.... The noise is to chase the spirits away. When I want to tear my hair out because I can hear a thumping base line from a block away, my wife doesn't even notice it. When she drives up late, I can sometimes hear the car radio even when I'm inside with the TV on. When I ask her to think of the neighbors (all of whom are behind unlighted windows so already asleep), she looks at me like I'm from Pluto. On any weekend evening, from dusk 'til well after midnight, we'll have parties full of teens and young adults on the Baht Bus - that's a converted large pickup truck that seats about eight, but which you can cram 20 onto if you hang them off the sides and back. The most popular Baht Bus to rent is the one with the biggest speakers, so the whole bus drances (drive + dance) through the streets and if you get stuck in a traffic jam or on a slow street adjacent to one, you can have all that music in your face for an hour. 20 to 24 idiotic and drunken teenagers on a Baht Bus can probably seem pretty threatening. Yet, no one I know of here has ever shot anyone over the noise. From a couple of yards?

29th November 2012, 06:00 AM	#107
Nessie Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: At the bottom of a dark Scottish loch. Posts: 4,872	Originally Posted by triforcharity And note that none of the other Americans that have posted in this article, are calling this a justified shooting or anything of the sort. I know, I saw that. I see others are agreeing it looks like a spurious attempt to claim self defence.
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic

29th November 2012, 06:04 AM	#108
Nessie Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: At the bottom of a dark Scottish loch. Posts: 4,872	Originally Posted by anglolawyer From a couple of yards? Yes, it is amazing how inaccurate the shooter is, even when trained, the weapon is blamed for being inaccurate, but we are also talking about the person firing it http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_1...shot-accuracy/ " According to a 2008 analysis of NYPD firearms discharge data done by the New York Times, between 1996-2006 officers hit their intended target about 34 percent of the time."
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29th November 2012, 06:05 AM	#109
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,222	Originally Posted by WildCat No, it has almost no similarities to the Trayvon Martin case. Except wrongful homicide.
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29th November 2012, 06:22 AM	#110
Newtons Bit Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,920	Originally Posted by KatieG You are in a public space. There are no rules for loud music at a convenience store unless the management makes them. All the guy had to do was get leave the store and take his business elsewhere. Dunn's story is full of ****. He appears to be the aggressor. Most cities have noise ordinances.
Newtons Bit Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,920	__________________ "Structural Engineering is the art of molding materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyze so as to understand forces we cannot really assess in such a way that the community at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our own ignorance." James E Amrhein My website.

29th November 2012, 06:30 AM	#111
Foolmewunz Grammar Resistance Leader Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pattaya, Thailand Posts: 20,534	Originally Posted by Newtons Bit Most cities have noise ordinances. Is there a bag limit on noisemakers in your state? I know they tried to set a national limit on jaywalkers, but they couldn't get it ratified. I'm not sure about noisemakers, though.
	__________________ Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele Don't you wish someone had slapped baby Hitler really really hard? [i] Dr. Buzzo 02/13 [i]

29th November 2012, 06:34 AM	#112
Newtons Bit Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,920	Originally Posted by Foolmewunz Is there a bag limit on noisemakers in your state? I know they tried to set a national limit on jaywalkers, but they couldn't get it ratified. I'm not sure about noisemakers, though. No, we do no bag limit hunts for coyotes (not the human type). Shooting people because they're jerks remains illegal. But thanks for the straw.
Newtons Bit Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,920	__________________ "Structural Engineering is the art of molding materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyze so as to understand forces we cannot really assess in such a way that the community at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our own ignorance." James E Amrhein My website.

29th November 2012, 06:53 AM	#113
FenerFan Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Istanbul...again Posts: 1,597	Originally Posted by Newtons Bit Most cities have noise ordinances. It's a strange coincidence that a Tampa ordinance about loud music coming from cars is being challenged in the state Supreme Court. As far as I can find out no final ruling has been issued. Here's some background: http://www.tampabay.com/news/publics...cle1169129.ece A link to FL Supreme Court http://jweb.flcourts.org/pls/docket/...asenumber=1166 Catalano was listening to a Justin Timberlake song when he was pulled over, so the officer didn't draw on him.
	__________________ From there to here From here to there Funny things are everywhere - Dr. Seuss Everything that can happen, does. - Garrett Lisi Last edited by FenerFan; 29th November 2012 at 06:59 AM.

29th November 2012, 07:01 AM	#114
Polaris Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,171	Originally Posted by FenerFan It's a strange coincidence that a Tampa ordinance about loud music coming from cars is being challenged in the state Supreme Court. As far as I can find out no final ruling has been issued. Here's some background: http://www.tampabay.com/news/publics...cle1169129.ece A link to FL Supreme Court http://jweb.flcourts.org/pls/docket/...asenumber=1166 Catalano was listening to a Justin Timberlake song when he was pulled over, so the officer didn't draw on him. Being shot would be preferable to having that become recorded for all time in US Constitutional law.
Polaris Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,171	__________________ "There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar "Roy Moore of Alabama. The world would absolutely benefit by him being run over by any vehicle." - Lowpro

29th November 2012, 07:48 AM	#115
Nessie Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: At the bottom of a dark Scottish loch. Posts: 4,872	The best thing to do with chavs in a car with a powerful ICE is to wait till they go home and want some peace to sleep and then blast them with music so disturbing them. Anyone who is up for annoying others always fails the golden rule.
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic