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Anders Lindman · 3rd December 2012, 05:59 AM

The description of the James Randi Million Dollar Challenge says:

"The JREF will pay US$1,000,000 (One Million US Dollars) ("The Prize") to any person who demonstrates any psychic, supernatural, or paranormal ability under satisfactory observation." -- http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/...plication.html

First of all, I couldn't find any definitions of psychic, supernatural or paranormal in the text. Secondly, if something can be objectively verified it's called natural, not supernatural. So the million dollar challenge is impossible to win.

Hellbound · 3rd December 2012, 06:07 AM

Man.

Don't you hate it when there's nothing on the forum but reruns?

RoboTimbo · 3rd December 2012, 06:09 AM

Originally Posted by Anders Lindman

The description of the James Randi Million Dollar Challenge says:

"The JREF will pay US$1,000,000 (One Million US Dollars) ("The Prize") to any person who demonstrates any psychic, supernatural, or paranormal ability under satisfactory observation." -- http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/...plication.html

First of all, I couldn't find any definitions of psychic, supernatural or paranormal in the text. Secondly, if something can be objectively verified it's called natural, not supernatural. So the million dollar challenge is impossible to win.

So your actual question is: Why do people claim to have those abilities when they clearly don't exist?

Pixel42 · 3rd December 2012, 06:11 AM

Originally Posted by Anders Lindman

First of all, I couldn't find any definitions of psychic, supernatural or paranormal in the text.

You should have looked harder.

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/...lenge-faq.html

Quote:

2.2 What is the definition of “paranormal” in regards to the Challenge?

Webster’s Online Dictionary defines “paranormal” as “not scientifically explainable; supernatural.”

Within the Challenge, this means that at the time your application is submitted and approved, your claim will be considered paranormal for the duration. If, after testing, it is decided that your ability is either scientifically explainable or will be someday, you needn’t worry. If the JREF has agreed to test you, then your claim is paranormal.

Which also answers your second point.

ohms · 3rd December 2012, 06:11 AM

Read the FAQ.

shuttlt · 3rd December 2012, 06:12 AM

Originally Posted by Hellbound

Man.

Don't you hate it when there's nothing on the forum but reruns?

I'm pretty sure this is the first time the prize has been shown to be a fraud. Carrie Poppy must have talked!

SonOfLaertes · 3rd December 2012, 06:14 AM

Originally Posted by Anders Lindman

The description of the James Randi Million Dollar Challenge says:

"The JREF will pay US$1,000,000 (One Million US Dollars) ("The Prize") to any person who demonstrates any psychic, supernatural, or paranormal ability under satisfactory observation." -- http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/...plication.html

First of all, I couldn't find any definitions of psychic, supernatural or paranormal in the text. Secondly, if something can be objectively verified it's called natural, not supernatural. So the million dollar challenge is impossible to win.

Hilarious. The statement "if something cannot be objectively verified" is the obvious and assumed definition of "supernatural".

And, if something can be objectively verified it's definition changes from supernatural to natural. So the million dollar challenge is winnable by your own definitions.

DallasDad · 3rd December 2012, 06:34 AM

Say you walk into a room. There are three envelopes on the table, sealed, each with a sheet of paper inside with a 10-digit number written on it.

Without opening the envelopes, you correctly identify the numbers in each envelope.

Absent trickery, fakery, or fraud, you've demonstrated a psychic talent. If you could do it repeatedly on demand (the same way a normally sighted person could read the numbers if they were not hidden), we'd probably call it "natural" rather than "supernatural," but it would still be a psychic ability.

Normal people can make the water in a glass disappear by picking up the glass and drinking it. If you could do the same thing using just your mind, you'd have a paranormal ability.

When normal people roll fair dice repeatedly, the numbers that come up correspond to the averages predicted by chance. If you could roll those same dice to show sixes every time (and weren't using sleight of hand or other tricks), you'd have an awsome power.

Push your hand through a brick wall and waggle your fingers at observers on the other side. Withdraw your hand and show that hand wasn't damaged and the wall didn't have any holes. Do it again, this time pushing a couch through the wall, and pulling back a chair.

Start a wad of paper on fire by staring at it.

Prove that you talk to dead people by telling me the words my grandmother said on her deathbed.

Tell me what tattoo my first girlfriend had just under her left breast.

Let me randomly pick a word from a dictionary while you're in the next room. Tell me the word, using telepathy, remote viewing, precognition, or any other unusual method.

These are just off the top of my head. There are thousands of similar types of tests you could try.

It's a real offer. The thing is, most (all?) people claiming psychic powers either decline to be tested because they know they're faking it, or are tested and show that they don't have the claimed powers.

Mojo · 3rd December 2012, 06:37 AM

Originally Posted by Pixel42

You should have looked harder.

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/...lenge-faq.html

Quote:

2.2 What is the definition of “paranormal” in regards to the Challenge?

Webster’s Online Dictionary defines “paranormal” as “not scientifically explainable; supernatural.”

Within the Challenge, this means that at the time your application is submitted and approved, your claim will be considered paranormal for the duration. If, after testing, it is decided that your ability is either scientifically explainable or will be someday, you needn’t worry. If the JREF has agreed to test you, then your claim is paranormal.

Which also answers your second point.

Originally Posted by ohms

Read the FAQ.

Come on, this is Anders. You can't expect him to do that much research.

Anders Lindman · 3rd December 2012, 06:41 AM

Originally Posted by ohms

Read the FAQ.

Oh!

"Within the Challenge, this means that at the time your application is submitted and approved, your claim will be considered paranormal for the duration. If, after testing, it is decided that your ability is either scientifically explainable or will be someday, you needn’t worry. If the JREF has agreed to test you, then your claim is paranormal."

[/end-thread]

elgarak · 3rd December 2012, 07:19 AM

Originally Posted by DallasDad

The thing is, most (all?) people claiming psychic powers either decline to be tested because they know they're faking it, or are tested and show that they don't have the claimed powers.

There's a third possibility: There seem to be people truly believing in their powers. These people and really determined fakers then re-define their powers to vanish/not working under the conditions necessary to win the prize ("There's a non-believer here. This interferes."), and subsequently accuse Randi, the JREF and the skeptical community of closed-mindedness.

ehcks · 3rd December 2012, 07:26 AM

Originally Posted by elgarak

There's a third possibility: There seem to be people truly believing in their powers. These people and really determined fakers then re-define their powers to vanish/not working under the conditions necessary to win the prize ("There's a non-believer here. This interferes."), and subsequently accuse Randi, the JREF and the skeptical community of closed-mindedness.

If not believing in magic makes magic not work, then hurray, I am immune to the supernatural.

elgarak · 3rd December 2012, 07:29 AM

Originally Posted by ehcks

If not believing in magic makes magic not work, then hurray, I am immune to the supernatural.

The funny thing is that this interference only emerges if your status as non-believer is known to the practitioner, say, because you say so, or are well-known within the community.

Hans · 3rd December 2012, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by Anders Lindman

[/end-thread]

Excellent idea

MRC_Hans · 3rd December 2012, 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by Anders Lindman

Oh!

"Within the Challenge, this means that at the time your application is submitted and approved, your claim will be considered paranormal for the duration. If, after testing, it is decided that your ability is either scientifically explainable or will be someday, you needn’t worry. If the JREF has agreed to test you, then your claim is paranormal."

[/end-thread]

Congratulations! You recognized and admitted to a mistake.

This is one of the first steps towards rationality. For this you are currently off my ignore list.

Hans

paiute · 3rd December 2012, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by Anders Lindman

Oh!

"Within the Challenge, this means that at the time your application is submitted and approved, your claim will be considered paranormal for the duration. If, after testing, it is decided that your ability is either scientifically explainable or will be someday, you needn’t worry. If the JREF has agreed to test you, then your claim is paranormal."

[/end-thread]

How the heck do you have close to 8000 posts without knowing this?

MRC_Hans · 3rd December 2012, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by paiute

How the heck do you have close to 8000 posts without knowing this?

Same way as he has 8000 posts without knowing practically anything else.

Hans

Anders Lindman · 3rd December 2012, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by paiute

How the heck do you have close to 8000 posts without knowing this?

I haven't looked much into paranormal stuff. Some things like the research by people like Rupert Sheldrake and Hal Puthoff I'm familiar with, but I haven't posted much about things paranormal.

Tomtomkent · 3rd December 2012, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by Anders Lindman

I haven't looked much into paranormal stuff.

Of course not.

The guy who thinks a conspiracy theory is a useful alternative to science, who thinks said theory is weakened by being supported by evidence, has claimed variously that the Titanic was deliberately bombed, that a marconi set could have its transmissions replaced, etc, all with out a jot of research, would not want to actually look into the paranormal, or the definition of the term in the wording of the challenge, before commenting.

fromdownunder · 5th December 2012, 09:02 PM

Originally Posted by Anders Lindman

I haven't looked much into paranormal stuff.

I think I have discovered your problem.

Norm

3rd December 2012, 05:59 AM	#1
Anders Lindman Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 9,857	The Million Dollar Challenge is crackpot science The description of the James Randi Million Dollar Challenge says: "The JREF will pay US$1,000,000 (One Million US Dollars) ("The Prize") to any person who demonstrates any psychic, supernatural, or paranormal ability under satisfactory observation." -- http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/...plication.html First of all, I couldn't find any definitions of psychic, supernatural or paranormal in the text. Secondly, if something can be objectively verified it's called natural, not supernatural. So the million dollar challenge is impossible to win.

3rd December 2012, 06:11 AM	#4
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Wiltshire, UK Posts: 4,459	Originally Posted by Anders Lindman First of all, I couldn't find any definitions of psychic, supernatural or paranormal in the text. You should have looked harder. http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/...lenge-faq.html Quote: 2.2 What is the definition of “paranormal” in regards to the Challenge? Webster’s Online Dictionary defines “paranormal” as “not scientifically explainable; supernatural.” Within the Challenge, this means that at the time your application is submitted and approved, your claim will be considered paranormal for the duration. If, after testing, it is decided that your ability is either scientifically explainable or will be someday, you needn’t worry. If the JREF has agreed to test you, then your claim is paranormal. Which also answers your second point.
	__________________ "The correct scientific response to anything that is not understood is always to look harder for the explanation, not give up and assume a supernatural cause". David Attenborough.

3rd December 2012, 06:11 AM	#5
ohms Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 452	Read the FAQ.
ohms Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 452	__________________ Long time lurker

3rd December 2012, 06:12 AM	#6
shuttlt Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3,951	Originally Posted by Hellbound Man. Don't you hate it when there's nothing on the forum but reruns? I'm pretty sure this is the first time the prize has been shown to be a fraud. Carrie Poppy must have talked!
shuttlt Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3,951

3rd December 2012, 06:14 AM	#7
SonOfLaertes Muse Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: The Area 51 Motel 6 Room 12 Bed 2 Pillow1 Posts: 790	Originally Posted by Anders Lindman The description of the James Randi Million Dollar Challenge says: "The JREF will pay US$1,000,000 (One Million US Dollars) ("The Prize") to any person who demonstrates any psychic, supernatural, or paranormal ability under satisfactory observation." -- http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/...plication.html First of all, I couldn't find any definitions of psychic, supernatural or paranormal in the text. Secondly, if something can be objectively verified it's called natural, not supernatural. So the million dollar challenge is impossible to win. Hilarious. The statement "if something cannot be objectively verified" is the obvious and assumed definition of "supernatural". And, if something can be objectively verified it's definition changes from supernatural to natural. So the million dollar challenge is winnable by your own definitions.
	__________________ Best concise summary of Intelligent Design's never-changing key argument: “ the improbability of assembly of functional sequence all at once from scratch by brute chance” (Nick Matske, Panda's Thumb).

3rd December 2012, 06:07 AM	#2
Hellbound Abiogenic Spongiform Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: In a handbasket Posts: 9,030	Man. Don't you hate it when there's nothing on the forum but reruns?

3rd December 2012, 06:09 AM	#3
RoboTimbo Hostile Nanobacon Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Prosperity, AZ Posts: 22,055	Originally Posted by Anders Lindman The description of the James Randi Million Dollar Challenge says: "The JREF will pay US$1,000,000 (One Million US Dollars) ("The Prize") to any person who demonstrates any psychic, supernatural, or paranormal ability under satisfactory observation." -- http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/...plication.html First of all, I couldn't find any definitions of psychic, supernatural or paranormal in the text. Secondly, if something can be objectively verified it's called natural, not supernatural. So the million dollar challenge is impossible to win. So your actual question is: Why do people claim to have those abilities when they clearly don't exist?

3rd December 2012, 06:34 AM	#8
DallasDad Muse Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 690	Say you walk into a room. There are three envelopes on the table, sealed, each with a sheet of paper inside with a 10-digit number written on it. Without opening the envelopes, you correctly identify the numbers in each envelope. Absent trickery, fakery, or fraud, you've demonstrated a psychic talent. If you could do it repeatedly on demand (the same way a normally sighted person could read the numbers if they were not hidden), we'd probably call it "natural" rather than "supernatural," but it would still be a psychic ability. Normal people can make the water in a glass disappear by picking up the glass and drinking it. If you could do the same thing using just your mind, you'd have a paranormal ability. When normal people roll fair dice repeatedly, the numbers that come up correspond to the averages predicted by chance. If you could roll those same dice to show sixes every time (and weren't using sleight of hand or other tricks), you'd have an awsome power. Push your hand through a brick wall and waggle your fingers at observers on the other side. Withdraw your hand and show that hand wasn't damaged and the wall didn't have any holes. Do it again, this time pushing a couch through the wall, and pulling back a chair. Start a wad of paper on fire by staring at it. Prove that you talk to dead people by telling me the words my grandmother said on her deathbed. Tell me what tattoo my first girlfriend had just under her left breast. Let me randomly pick a word from a dictionary while you're in the next room. Tell me the word, using telepathy, remote viewing, precognition, or any other unusual method. These are just off the top of my head. There are thousands of similar types of tests you could try. It's a real offer. The thing is, most (all?) people claiming psychic powers either decline to be tested because they know they're faking it, or are tested and show that they don't have the claimed powers.
DallasDad Muse Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 690

3rd December 2012, 06:37 AM	#9
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,489	Originally Posted by Pixel42 You should have looked harder. http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/...lenge-faq.html Quote: 2.2 What is the definition of “paranormal” in regards to the Challenge? Webster’s Online Dictionary defines “paranormal” as “not scientifically explainable; supernatural.” Within the Challenge, this means that at the time your application is submitted and approved, your claim will be considered paranormal for the duration. If, after testing, it is decided that your ability is either scientifically explainable or will be someday, you needn’t worry. If the JREF has agreed to test you, then your claim is paranormal. Which also answers your second point. Originally Posted by ohms Read the FAQ. Come on, this is Anders. You can't expect him to do that much research.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

3rd December 2012, 06:41 AM	#10
Anders Lindman Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 9,857	Originally Posted by ohms Read the FAQ. Oh! "Within the Challenge, this means that at the time your application is submitted and approved, your claim will be considered paranormal for the duration. If, after testing, it is decided that your ability is either scientifically explainable or will be someday, you needn’t worry. If the JREF has agreed to test you, then your claim is paranormal." [/end-thread]

3rd December 2012, 07:19 AM	#11
elgarak Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: No matter where I go, there I am Posts: 1,868	Originally Posted by DallasDad The thing is, most (all?) people claiming psychic powers either decline to be tested because they know they're faking it, or are tested and show that they don't have the claimed powers. There's a third possibility: There seem to be people truly believing in their powers. These people and really determined fakers then re-define their powers to vanish/not working under the conditions necessary to win the prize ("There's a non-believer here. This interferes."), and subsequently accuse Randi, the JREF and the skeptical community of closed-mindedness.

3rd December 2012, 07:26 AM	#12
ehcks Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 1,717	Originally Posted by elgarak There's a third possibility: There seem to be people truly believing in their powers. These people and really determined fakers then re-define their powers to vanish/not working under the conditions necessary to win the prize ("There's a non-believer here. This interferes."), and subsequently accuse Randi, the JREF and the skeptical community of closed-mindedness. If not believing in magic makes magic not work, then hurray, I am immune to the supernatural.
ehcks Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 1,717	__________________ Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor

3rd December 2012, 07:29 AM	#13
elgarak Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: No matter where I go, there I am Posts: 1,868	Originally Posted by ehcks If not believing in magic makes magic not work, then hurray, I am immune to the supernatural. The funny thing is that this interference only emerges if your status as non-believer is known to the practitioner, say, because you say so, or are well-known within the community.

3rd December 2012, 07:42 AM	#14
Hans Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: NW United States Posts: 2,859	Originally Posted by Anders Lindman [/end-thread] Excellent idea

3rd December 2012, 07:45 AM	#15
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Whithin earshot of the North Sea Posts: 16,604	Originally Posted by Anders Lindman Oh! "Within the Challenge, this means that at the time your application is submitted and approved, your claim will be considered paranormal for the duration. If, after testing, it is decided that your ability is either scientifically explainable or will be someday, you needn’t worry. If the JREF has agreed to test you, then your claim is paranormal." [/end-thread] Congratulations! You recognized and admitted to a mistake. This is one of the first steps towards rationality. For this you are currently off my ignore list. Hans
	__________________ Don't. Just don't.

3rd December 2012, 07:52 AM	#16
paiute Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Smack in the middle of a de Broglie wavelength. Posts: 1,147	Originally Posted by Anders Lindman Oh! "Within the Challenge, this means that at the time your application is submitted and approved, your claim will be considered paranormal for the duration. If, after testing, it is decided that your ability is either scientifically explainable or will be someday, you needn’t worry. If the JREF has agreed to test you, then your claim is paranormal." [/end-thread] How the heck do you have close to 8000 posts without knowing this?
	__________________ A Novel and Efficient Synthesis of Cadaverine Organic chemistry, vengeful ghosts, and high explosives. What could possibly go wrong? Now free for download! http://www.scribd.com/doc/36568510/A...-of-Cadaverine

3rd December 2012, 07:55 AM	#17
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Whithin earshot of the North Sea Posts: 16,604	Originally Posted by paiute How the heck do you have close to 8000 posts without knowing this? Same way as he has 8000 posts without knowing practically anything else. Hans
	__________________ Don't. Just don't.

3rd December 2012, 08:26 AM	#18
Anders Lindman Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 9,857	Originally Posted by paiute How the heck do you have close to 8000 posts without knowing this? I haven't looked much into paranormal stuff. Some things like the research by people like Rupert Sheldrake and Hal Puthoff I'm familiar with, but I haven't posted much about things paranormal.

3rd December 2012, 09:48 AM	#19
Tomtomkent Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Kent, United Kingdom Posts: 5,351	Originally Posted by Anders Lindman I haven't looked much into paranormal stuff. Of course not. The guy who thinks a conspiracy theory is a useful alternative to science, who thinks said theory is weakened by being supported by evidence, has claimed variously that the Titanic was deliberately bombed, that a marconi set could have its transmissions replaced, etc, all with out a jot of research, would not want to actually look into the paranormal, or the definition of the term in the wording of the challenge, before commenting.
	__________________ @tomhodden No animals were harmed in the making of this post.

5th December 2012, 09:02 PM	#20
fromdownunder Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 3,118	Originally Posted by Anders Lindman I haven't looked much into paranormal stuff. I think I have discovered your problem. Norm