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Old 3rd December 2012, 05:24 AM   #81
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
Just Say No


Prior to the so-called sexual "revolution" of the 60s, which just happened to coincide with the invention of the "Pill" and LBJ"s War on Poverty, out of wedlock births among American women were rare. In 1930, approximately 97 percent of births were within marriage compared to 2008, where 40 percent of births were out of wedlock. From this, it can be reasonably inferred, that when sexual temptations occurred, prior to the "Pill" and the sexual "revolution," most unwed American woman just said "no".


http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?...pictureid=7021





US Census and Nat.Bur. of Health Statistics

http://www.heritage.org/research/rep...-child-poverty
Ah so you are not against teen pregnancy but for shotgun weddings.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 05:44 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Ah so you are not against teen pregnancy but for shotgun weddings.
An eager bride can do in six months what takes a normal woman nine.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 05:51 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post

Why not 'Just say no?"
Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
Because they don't want to say no.
Unless they are talking to Robert, then it's the only word they know.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 08:30 AM   #84
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http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db89.pdf

CDC data would not support the conclusion that teen birthrates are higher now than during the sexual revolution.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 08:31 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
Taxpayers support Condom Negotiation for Teen Girls

"The administration is funding a $100,000 study of pregnant and "at-risk" 14-17-year-old girls on probation in Houston, Texas, to determine ways to help them choose safer lifestyles and avoid pregnancy, including better "condom negotiation" tactics."

http://washingtonexaminer.com/feds-1...3#.ULe12UbCz8B

Why not 'Just say no?"
When did that work?
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Old 3rd December 2012, 08:47 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db89.pdf

CDC data would not support the conclusion that teen birthrates are higher now than during the sexual revolution.
I submit America is still in the midst of your "Do Your Own Thing" Sexual "Revolution." and any stats regarding Teen "birth rates" must take into account Rowe V. Wade and approximately one million of the unborn murdered each and every year -- a rather extreme method of birth control.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 08:54 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler View Post
"Born out of wedlock" is not the same thing as unwanted pregnancy. We have no legitimate public interest in preventing "out of wedlock" pregnancies. We do have such an interest in preventing unwanted pregnancies.
Oh, but there is extreme public interest. Out of wedlock pregnancies tend to produce fatherless children, paid for with funds stolen from taxpayers along with the consequences of directionless children, who learn all about living on the public dole plus street crime, especially wanton murder in the inner cities --due primarily to a mental disease called "Liberalism."

Note: 8 more murdered in Chicago this past weekend.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 08:58 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler View Post
To your broader point, even the religious right think tanks have been unable to show that abstinence only programs are effective at reducing unwanted pregnancies or preventing the spread of STDs.

That's what you're really promoting as an alternative to any sort of education that includes factual information about contraception and condoms, isn't it?
But I have just shown you a chart that tends to prove abstinence works. The use of condoms and/or the pill only leads to promiscuity, unwanted pregnancy and STDs, not to mention spiritual despair.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 09:02 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
But I have just shown you a chart that tends to prove abstinence works. The use of condoms and/or the pill only leads to promiscuity, unwanted pregnancy and STDs, not to mention spiritual despair.
But we have shown you many other links that prove that abstinence-only fails.

In your heart you know we're right.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 09:22 AM   #90
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That chart you mention is put out by the Heritage Foundation a right wing think tank not known for its balanced approach to reporting reality.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 09:23 AM   #91
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Oh, Uncle Robert, tell us the story about how there was almost no homosexuality at all in America until liberal Hollywood made it attractive to impressionable teenagers. That's my favorite story.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 09:32 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
But I have just shown you a chart that tends to prove abstinence works. The use of condoms and/or the pill only leads to promiscuity, unwanted pregnancy and STDs, not to mention spiritual despair.
Yeah, no. To date I've spent 25 sexually active years using condoms and/or the pill & it led to some awesome times, great stories, & a beautiful 9 month old son that we planned for. Thus you are once again wrong.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 09:46 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
I submit America is still in the midst of your "Do Your Own Thing" Sexual "Revolution."
We've been in a sexual revolution for 50 years? I think that's a little better than two generations.

Your submission is rejected. It may be re-submitted with accompanying supportive data.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 09:48 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
But I have just shown you a chart that tends to prove abstinence works.
If you are referring to the last chart you posted, it doesn't show that at all, as was pointed out to you.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 09:58 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
Oh, but there is extreme public interest. Out of wedlock pregnancies tend to produce fatherless children, paid for with funds stolen from taxpayers along with the consequences of directionless children, who learn all about living on the public dole plus street crime, especially wanton murder in the inner cities --due primarily to a mental disease called "Liberalism."

Note: 8 more murdered in Chicago this past weekend.
Were you a virgin when you married or if you never married are you a virgin now?
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Old 3rd December 2012, 10:01 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
Oh, but there is extreme public interest. Out of wedlock pregnancies tend to produce fatherless children, paid for with funds stolen from taxpayers along with the consequences of directionless children, who learn all about living on the public dole plus street crime, especially wanton murder in the inner cities --due primarily to a mental disease called "Liberalism."

Note: 8 more murdered in Chicago this past weekend.
Well then, it's a good job we're teaching girls to insist on condoms.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 10:09 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
I submit America is still in the midst of your "Do Your Own Thing" Sexual "Revolution." and any stats regarding Teen "birth rates" must take into account Rowe V. Wade and approximately one million of the unborn murdered each and every year -- a rather extreme method of birth control.
Should we be saving sperm? How many unborn are left to die in the porcelain incubator?



Can we stop it with the overblown rhetoric? Sperm is not a human being and neither is a zygote.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 10:15 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
Just Say No


Prior to the so-called sexual "revolution" of the 60s, which just happened to coincide with the invention of the "Pill" and LBJ"s War on Poverty, out of wedlock births among American women were rare. In 1930, approximately 97 percent of births were within marriage compared to 2008, where 40 percent of births were out of wedlock. From this, it can be reasonably inferred, that when sexual temptations occurred, prior to the "Pill" and the sexual "revolution," most unwed American woman just said "no".
That depends on your definition of "reasonably". All it really means is that people were usually married by the time of birth.

And, I'm afraid to ask but why are you so stuck on whether women were virgins or whether women "just said no"? Doesn't an out-of-wedlock birth involve both a woman and a man who had sex outside of marriage?

Last edited by iknownothing; 3rd December 2012 at 10:53 AM.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 10:47 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
But I have just shown you a chart that tends to prove abstinence works.
No it didn't.

And the claim that "abstinence works" as a response to the observation that "abstinence only sex ed programs do not work" is intellectually dishonest.

If you only count people who don't have sex in your outcome measure, you can't possibly fail. That'd be like doing a drug test and only counting the individuals with the results you want and ignoring the rest.



Quote:
The use of condoms and/or the pill only leads to promiscuity, unwanted pregnancy and STDs, not to mention spiritual despair.
This is a false assertion. We can debate that topic, but your position is easily proven wrong. But I don't think it will come to that since you have so little interest in looking at any evidence at all.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 11:01 AM   #100
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I like how Bobby's chart, despite its leanings, has a leveling off in the 90's during the 'we aren't bothering with abstinace crap' Clinton era and then skyrockets during the Bush 'abstinence and only abstinence!!!' era.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 11:03 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
Should we be saving sperm? How many unborn are left to die in the porcelain incubator?

http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/5...ficultconc.jpg

Can we stop it with the overblown rhetoric? Sperm is not a human being and neither is a zygote.
And what is this?????


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Old 3rd December 2012, 11:05 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
A drawing.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 11:07 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Well then, it's a good job we're teaching girls to insist on condoms.

News flash: Condoms don't work. Failure rate of 14 to 15 percent.

http://www.americanpregnancy.org/pre...alecondom.html
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Old 3rd December 2012, 11:08 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
And what is this?????
The last scene of Kubrick's 2001: A Space Odyssey?
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Old 3rd December 2012, 11:09 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
Looks like the drawing of an 18 week - 23 week fetus. Do you have a point?
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Old 3rd December 2012, 11:10 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Dcdrac View Post
That chart you mention is put out by the Heritage Foundation a right wing think tank not known for its balanced approach to reporting reality.
Nonsense. The source of the chart is US Census and Nat.Bur. of Health Statistics
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Old 3rd December 2012, 11:11 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
News flash: Condoms don't work. Failure rate of 14 to 15 percent.
That's a misleading statement. From the Wiki article:

Quote:
As a method of birth control, male condoms have the advantage of being inexpensive, easy to use, having few side effects, and offering protection against sexually transmitted diseases. With proper knowledge and application technique—and use at every act of intercourse—women whose partners use male condoms experience a 2% per-year pregnancy rate with perfect use and a 15% per-year pregnancy rate with typical use.[1]
Even the "typical use" figure is pregnancy rate among women who rely on male condoms for a year. It doesn't mean that each condom has a 15% failure rate, as your statement implies.

ETA: And, FWIW, the issue of the difference between the 15% and the 2% rate is at least partly a matter of getting accurate education. Abstinence-only programs actually contribute to the ignorance that can lead to improper use of condoms. As you can see, that failure of compliance (at least some of which is based on ignorance) makes the "failure rate" some 750% greater.

ETA: Pointing out that improper use of condoms is a reason not to give young people accurate information about condoms is a really truly bizarre argument.
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Last edited by JoeTheJuggler; 3rd December 2012 at 11:18 AM.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 11:12 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
Looks like the drawing of an 18 week - 23 week fetus. Do you have a point?
Yes. Abortion kills human life.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 11:17 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
[Robert,] Were you a virgin when you married or if you never married are you a virgin now?

This is a good question. I bet Robert doesn't ever answer this, or even acknowledge that it exists.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 11:19 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
Yes. Abortion kills human life.
Who is aborting 18 - 23 week old fetuses?

Quote:
  • 88-92% of all abortions happen during the first trimester, prior to the 13th week of gestation (AGI/CDC).
  • In 2009, 7% of all abortions were performed at 14-20 weeks' gestation; 1.3% were performed at ≥21 weeks' gestation (CDC).
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Last edited by RandFan; 3rd December 2012 at 11:22 AM.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 11:21 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
Yes. Abortion kills human life.
No. In your heart you know I'm right.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 11:21 AM   #112
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Robert Prey, would you rather young people learn about condoms in the classroom or on the street (or worse--by trial and error)?

You're not so naive as to think that if we don't provide young people with accurate information about condoms they won't know condoms exist?
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Old 3rd December 2012, 11:22 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler View Post
Robert Prey, would you rather young people learn about condoms in the classroom or on the street (or worse--by trial and error)?

You're not so naive as to think that if we don't provide young people with accurate information about condoms they won't know condoms exist?
Prediction: he will admit that they will learn, and blame it all on the evil liberal socialist commie media, like FOX News.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 11:24 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
Yes. Abortion kills human life.

So does malnutrition and easily prevented infectious diseases. Indeed, according to the WHO, some 6.9 million children under the age of five died around the world last year, of which at least half were from easily preventable causes. Strangely, those lives lost never seem to get any attention from many of the anti-abortion crowd, young lives that could be saved today with just a little bit of effort. Instead, the complain vociferously about children being killed by abortion, and for all their efforts, how many lives have their anti-abortion efforts actually saved?

(I could also remark how the anti-abortion movement generally seems unconcerned with the 'human life' routinely destroyed by fertility clinics. But I suspect the picture of a freshly fertilized ovum doesn't angry up their blood as much as a picture of a thrity-week-old fetus. Call me cynical if you wish.)
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Old 3rd December 2012, 11:26 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by remirol View Post
Prediction: he will admit that they will learn, and blame it all on the evil liberal socialist commie media, like FOX News.


Or maybe he wants us to rely on a private sector solution: let the condom manufacturers be the only sources of information about condoms.

Of course, then you'd need some sort of draconian Nanny-state rules to prevent anyone else from talking about condoms. . . .

Why do you hate freedom, Robert?
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Old 3rd December 2012, 11:27 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
But I have just shown you a chart that tends to prove abstinence works. The use of condoms and/or the pill only leads to promiscuity, unwanted pregnancy and STDs, not to mention spiritual despair.
Baloney. I have 40+ medical witnesses that say otherwise. And they all have their original birth certificates. Beat that.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 11:28 AM   #117
RandFan
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
So does malnutrition and easily prevented infectious diseases. Indeed, according to the WHO, some 6.9 million children under the age of five died around the world last year, of which at least half were from easily preventable causes. Strangely, those lives lost never seem to get any attention from many of the anti-abortion crowd, young lives that could be saved today with just a little bit of effort. Instead, the complain vociferously about children being killed by abortion, and for all their efforts, how many lives have their anti-abortion efforts actually saved?

(I could also remark how the anti-abortion movement generally seems unconcerned with the 'human life' routinely destroyed by fertility clinics. But I suspect the picture of a freshly fertilized ovum doesn't angry up their blood as much as a picture of a thrity-week-old fetus. Call me cynical if you wish.)
As one who was formally against all abortions I just didn't see the forest for the trees. It's sad really. People think they are principled to stand up against abortion but don't otherwise give a **** about human life.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 11:29 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
Yes. Abortion kills human life.
So, did you ever play a part in this? Say the part where the girl got pregnant?
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Old 3rd December 2012, 11:30 AM   #119
Corsair 115
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
As one who was formally against all abortions I just didn't see the forest for the trees. It's sad really. People think they are principled to stand up against abortion but don't otherwise give a **** about human life.

I've quipped about that before, paraphrasing a line from the opening narration of the movie Blood Simple: "After birth, you're own your own."
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Old 3rd December 2012, 11:40 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
And what is this?????
A painting.

Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
News flash: Condoms don't work. Failure rate of 14 to 15 percent.
So they work 85+% of the time. Your second statement contradicts your first.
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