Condom Negotiation - Page 3

ponderingturtle · 3rd December 2012, 05:24 AM

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

Just Say No

Prior to the so-called sexual "revolution" of the 60s, which just happened to coincide with the invention of the "Pill" and LBJ"s War on Poverty, out of wedlock births among American women were rare. In 1930, approximately 97 percent of births were within marriage compared to 2008, where 40 percent of births were out of wedlock. From this, it can be reasonably inferred, that when sexual temptations occurred, prior to the "Pill" and the sexual "revolution," most unwed American woman just said "no".

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?...pictureid=7021

US Census and Nat.Bur. of Health Statistics

http://www.heritage.org/research/rep...-child-poverty

Ah so you are not against teen pregnancy but for shotgun weddings.

Alferd_Packer · 3rd December 2012, 05:44 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Ah so you are not against teen pregnancy but for shotgun weddings.

An eager bride can do in six months what takes a normal woman nine.

Alferd_Packer · 3rd December 2012, 05:51 AM

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

Why not 'Just say no?"

Originally Posted by Seismosaurus

Because they don't want to say no.

Unless they are talking to Robert, then it's the only word they know.

Craig4 · 3rd December 2012, 08:30 AM

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db89.pdf

CDC data would not support the conclusion that teen birthrates are higher now than during the sexual revolution.

Dancing David · 3rd December 2012, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

Taxpayers support Condom Negotiation for Teen Girls

"The administration is funding a $100,000 study of pregnant and "at-risk" 14-17-year-old girls on probation in Houston, Texas, to determine ways to help them choose safer lifestyles and avoid pregnancy, including better "condom negotiation" tactics."

http://washingtonexaminer.com/feds-1...3#.ULe12UbCz8B

Why not 'Just say no?"

When did that work?

Robert Prey · 3rd December 2012, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by Craig4

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db89.pdf

CDC data would not support the conclusion that teen birthrates are higher now than during the sexual revolution.

I submit America is still in the midst of your "Do Your Own Thing" Sexual "Revolution." and any stats regarding Teen "birth rates" must take into account Rowe V. Wade and approximately one million of the unborn murdered each and every year -- a rather extreme method of birth control.

Robert Prey · 3rd December 2012, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler

"Born out of wedlock" is not the same thing as unwanted pregnancy. We have no legitimate public interest in preventing "out of wedlock" pregnancies. We do have such an interest in preventing unwanted pregnancies.

Oh, but there is extreme public interest. Out of wedlock pregnancies tend to produce fatherless children, paid for with funds stolen from taxpayers along with the consequences of directionless children, who learn all about living on the public dole plus street crime, especially wanton murder in the inner cities --due primarily to a mental disease called "Liberalism."

Note: 8 more murdered in Chicago this past weekend.

Robert Prey · 3rd December 2012, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler

To your broader point, even the religious right think tanks have been unable to show that abstinence only programs are effective at reducing unwanted pregnancies or preventing the spread of STDs.

That's what you're really promoting as an alternative to any sort of education that includes factual information about contraception and condoms, isn't it?

But I have just shown you a chart that tends to prove abstinence works. The use of condoms and/or the pill only leads to promiscuity, unwanted pregnancy and STDs, not to mention spiritual despair.

remirol · 3rd December 2012, 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

But I have just shown you a chart that tends to prove abstinence works. The use of condoms and/or the pill only leads to promiscuity, unwanted pregnancy and STDs, not to mention spiritual despair.

But we have shown you many other links that prove that abstinence-only fails.

In your heart you know we're right.

Dcdrac · 3rd December 2012, 09:22 AM

That chart you mention is put out by the Heritage Foundation a right wing think tank not known for its balanced approach to reporting reality.

Ladewig · 3rd December 2012, 09:23 AM

Oh, Uncle Robert, tell us the story about how there was almost no homosexuality at all in America until liberal Hollywood made it attractive to impressionable teenagers. That's my favorite story.

Redtail · 3rd December 2012, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

But I have just shown you a chart that tends to prove abstinence works. The use of condoms and/or the pill only leads to promiscuity, unwanted pregnancy and STDs, not to mention spiritual despair.

Yeah, no. To date I've spent 25 sexually active years using condoms and/or the pill & it led to some awesome times, great stories, & a beautiful 9 month old son that we planned for. Thus you are once again wrong.

Upchurch · 3rd December 2012, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

I submit America is still in the midst of your "Do Your Own Thing" Sexual "Revolution."

We've been in a sexual revolution for 50 years? I think that's a little better than two generations.

Your submission is rejected. It may be re-submitted with accompanying supportive data.

Upchurch · 3rd December 2012, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

But I have just shown you a chart that tends to prove abstinence works.

If you are referring to the last chart you posted, it doesn't show that at all, as was pointed out to you.

Craig4 · 3rd December 2012, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

Oh, but there is extreme public interest. Out of wedlock pregnancies tend to produce fatherless children, paid for with funds stolen from taxpayers along with the consequences of directionless children, who learn all about living on the public dole plus street crime, especially wanton murder in the inner cities --due primarily to a mental disease called "Liberalism."

Note: 8 more murdered in Chicago this past weekend.

Were you a virgin when you married or if you never married are you a virgin now?

Craig4 · 3rd December 2012, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

Oh, but there is extreme public interest. Out of wedlock pregnancies tend to produce fatherless children, paid for with funds stolen from taxpayers along with the consequences of directionless children, who learn all about living on the public dole plus street crime, especially wanton murder in the inner cities --due primarily to a mental disease called "Liberalism."

Note: 8 more murdered in Chicago this past weekend.

Well then, it's a good job we're teaching girls to insist on condoms.

RandFan · 3rd December 2012, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

I submit America is still in the midst of your "Do Your Own Thing" Sexual "Revolution." and any stats regarding Teen "birth rates" must take into account Rowe V. Wade and approximately one million of the unborn murdered each and every year -- a rather extreme method of birth control.

Should we be saving sperm? How many unborn are left to die in the porcelain incubator?

Can we stop it with the overblown rhetoric? Sperm is not a human being and neither is a zygote.

iknownothing · 3rd December 2012, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

Just Say No

Prior to the so-called sexual "revolution" of the 60s, which just happened to coincide with the invention of the "Pill" and LBJ"s War on Poverty, out of wedlock births among American women were rare. In 1930, approximately 97 percent of births were within marriage compared to 2008, where 40 percent of births were out of wedlock. From this, it can be reasonably inferred, that when sexual temptations occurred, prior to the "Pill" and the sexual "revolution," most unwed American woman just said "no".

That depends on your definition of "reasonably". All it really means is that people were usually married by the time of birth.

And, I'm afraid to ask but why are you so stuck on whether women were virgins or whether women "just said no"? Doesn't an out-of-wedlock birth involve both a woman and a man who had sex outside of marriage?

JoeTheJuggler · 3rd December 2012, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

But I have just shown you a chart that tends to prove abstinence works.

No it didn't.

And the claim that "abstinence works" as a response to the observation that "abstinence only sex ed programs do not work" is intellectually dishonest.

If you only count people who don't have sex in your outcome measure, you can't possibly fail. That'd be like doing a drug test and only counting the individuals with the results you want and ignoring the rest.

Quote:

The use of condoms and/or the pill only leads to promiscuity, unwanted pregnancy and STDs, not to mention spiritual despair.

This is a false assertion. We can debate that topic, but your position is easily proven wrong. But I don't think it will come to that since you have so little interest in looking at any evidence at all.

kookbreaker · 3rd December 2012, 11:01 AM

I like how Bobby's chart, despite its leanings, has a leveling off in the 90's during the 'we aren't bothering with abstinace crap' Clinton era and then skyrockets during the Bush 'abstinence and only abstinence!!!' era.

Robert Prey · 3rd December 2012, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by RandFan

Should we be saving sperm? How many unborn are left to die in the porcelain incubator?

http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/5...ficultconc.jpg

Can we stop it with the overblown rhetoric? Sperm is not a human being and neither is a zygote.

And what is this?????

remirol · 3rd December 2012, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

And what is this?????

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?...pictureid=7023

A drawing.

Robert Prey · 3rd December 2012, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by Craig4

Well then, it's a good job we're teaching girls to insist on condoms.

News flash: Condoms don't work. Failure rate of 14 to 15 percent.

http://www.americanpregnancy.org/pre...alecondom.html

ANTPogo · 3rd December 2012, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

And what is this?????

The last scene of Kubrick's 2001: A Space Odyssey?

RandFan · 3rd December 2012, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

And what is this?????

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?...pictureid=7023

Looks like the drawing of an 18 week - 23 week fetus. Do you have a point?

Robert Prey · 3rd December 2012, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Dcdrac

That chart you mention is put out by the Heritage Foundation a right wing think tank not known for its balanced approach to reporting reality.

Nonsense. The source of the chart is US Census and Nat.Bur. of Health Statistics

JoeTheJuggler · 3rd December 2012, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

News flash: Condoms don't work. Failure rate of 14 to 15 percent.

That's a misleading statement. From the Wiki article:

Quote:

As a method of birth control, male condoms have the advantage of being inexpensive, easy to use, having few side effects, and offering protection against sexually transmitted diseases. With proper knowledge and application technique—and use at every act of intercourse—women whose partners use male condoms experience a 2% per-year pregnancy rate with perfect use and a 15% per-year pregnancy rate with typical use.[1]

Even the "typical use" figure is pregnancy rate among women who rely on male condoms for a year. It doesn't mean that each condom has a 15% failure rate, as your statement implies.

ETA: And, FWIW, the issue of the difference between the 15% and the 2% rate is at least partly a matter of getting accurate education. Abstinence-only programs actually contribute to the ignorance that can lead to improper use of condoms. As you can see, that failure of compliance (at least some of which is based on ignorance) makes the "failure rate" some 750% greater.

ETA: Pointing out that improper use of condoms is a reason not to give young people accurate information about condoms is a really truly bizarre argument.

Robert Prey · 3rd December 2012, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by RandFan

Looks like the drawing of an 18 week - 23 week fetus. Do you have a point?

Yes. Abortion kills human life.

TheRedWorm · 3rd December 2012, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Craig4

[Robert,] Were you a virgin when you married or if you never married are you a virgin now?

This is a good question. I bet Robert doesn't ever answer this, or even acknowledge that it exists.

RandFan · 3rd December 2012, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

Yes. Abortion kills human life.

Who is aborting 18 - 23 week old fetuses?

Quote:

88-92% of all abortions happen during the first trimester, prior to the 13th week of gestation (AGI/CDC).
In 2009, 7% of all abortions were performed at 14-20 weeks' gestation; 1.3% were performed at ≥21 weeks' gestation (CDC).

remirol · 3rd December 2012, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

Yes. Abortion kills human life.

No. In your heart you know I'm right.

JoeTheJuggler · 3rd December 2012, 11:21 AM

Robert Prey, would you rather young people learn about condoms in the classroom or on the street (or worse--by trial and error)?

You're not so naive as to think that if we don't provide young people with accurate information about condoms they won't know condoms exist?

remirol · 3rd December 2012, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler

Robert Prey, would you rather young people learn about condoms in the classroom or on the street (or worse--by trial and error)?

You're not so naive as to think that if we don't provide young people with accurate information about condoms they won't know condoms exist?

Prediction: he will admit that they will learn, and blame it all on the evil liberal socialist commie media, like FOX News.

Corsair 115 · 3rd December 2012, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

Yes. Abortion kills human life.

So does malnutrition and easily prevented infectious diseases. Indeed, according to the WHO, some 6.9 million children under the age of five died around the world last year, of which at least half were from easily preventable causes. Strangely, those lives lost never seem to get any attention from many of the anti-abortion crowd, young lives that could be saved today with just a little bit of effort. Instead, the complain vociferously about children being killed by abortion, and for all their efforts, how many lives have their anti-abortion efforts actually saved?

(I could also remark how the anti-abortion movement generally seems unconcerned with the 'human life' routinely destroyed by fertility clinics. But I suspect the picture of a freshly fertilized ovum doesn't angry up their blood as much as a picture of a thrity-week-old fetus. Call me cynical if you wish.)

JoeTheJuggler · 3rd December 2012, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by remirol

Prediction: he will admit that they will learn, and blame it all on the evil liberal socialist commie media, like FOX News.

Or maybe he wants us to rely on a private sector solution: let the condom manufacturers be the only sources of information about condoms.

Of course, then you'd need some sort of draconian Nanny-state rules to prevent anyone else from talking about condoms. . . .

Why do you hate freedom, Robert?

EventHorizon · 3rd December 2012, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

But I have just shown you a chart that tends to prove abstinence works. The use of condoms and/or the pill only leads to promiscuity, unwanted pregnancy and STDs, not to mention spiritual despair.

Baloney. I have 40+ medical witnesses that say otherwise. And they all have their original birth certificates. Beat that.

RandFan · 3rd December 2012, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Corsair 115

So does malnutrition and easily prevented infectious diseases. Indeed, according to the WHO, some 6.9 million children under the age of five died around the world last year, of which at least half were from easily preventable causes. Strangely, those lives lost never seem to get any attention from many of the anti-abortion crowd, young lives that could be saved today with just a little bit of effort. Instead, the complain vociferously about children being killed by abortion, and for all their efforts, how many lives have their anti-abortion efforts actually saved?

(I could also remark how the anti-abortion movement generally seems unconcerned with the 'human life' routinely destroyed by fertility clinics. But I suspect the picture of a freshly fertilized ovum doesn't angry up their blood as much as a picture of a thrity-week-old fetus. Call me cynical if you wish.)

As one who was formally against all abortions I just didn't see the forest for the trees. It's sad really. People think they are principled to stand up against abortion but don't otherwise give a **** about human life.

Craig4 · 3rd December 2012, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

Yes. Abortion kills human life.

So, did you ever play a part in this? Say the part where the girl got pregnant?

Corsair 115 · 3rd December 2012, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by RandFan

As one who was formally against all abortions I just didn't see the forest for the trees. It's sad really. People think they are principled to stand up against abortion but don't otherwise give a **** about human life.

I've quipped about that before, paraphrasing a line from the opening narration of the movie Blood Simple: "After birth, you're own your own."

Cleon · 3rd December 2012, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

And what is this?????

A painting.

Originally Posted by Robert Prey

News flash: Condoms don't work. Failure rate of 14 to 15 percent.

So they work 85+% of the time. Your second statement contradicts your first.

3rd December 2012, 05:24 AM	#81
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,434	Originally Posted by Robert Prey Just Say No Prior to the so-called sexual "revolution" of the 60s, which just happened to coincide with the invention of the "Pill" and LBJ"s War on Poverty, out of wedlock births among American women were rare. In 1930, approximately 97 percent of births were within marriage compared to 2008, where 40 percent of births were out of wedlock. From this, it can be reasonably inferred, that when sexual temptations occurred, prior to the "Pill" and the sexual "revolution," most unwed American woman just said "no". http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?...pictureid=7021 US Census and Nat.Bur. of Health Statistics http://www.heritage.org/research/rep...-child-poverty Ah so you are not against teen pregnancy but for shotgun weddings.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

3rd December 2012, 05:44 AM	#82
Alferd_Packer Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 7,222	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Ah so you are not against teen pregnancy but for shotgun weddings. An eager bride can do in six months what takes a normal woman nine.
	__________________ No laws of physics were broken in the writing of this post

3rd December 2012, 05:51 AM	#83
Alferd_Packer Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 7,222	Originally Posted by Robert Prey Why not 'Just say no?" Originally Posted by Seismosaurus Because they don't want to say no. Unless they are talking to Robert, then it's the only word they know.
	__________________ No laws of physics were broken in the writing of this post

3rd December 2012, 08:30 AM	#84
Craig4 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 5,363	http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db89.pdf CDC data would not support the conclusion that teen birthrates are higher now than during the sexual revolution.
Craig4 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 5,363

3rd December 2012, 08:31 AM	#85
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,736	Originally Posted by Robert Prey Taxpayers support Condom Negotiation for Teen Girls "The administration is funding a $100,000 study of pregnant and "at-risk" 14-17-year-old girls on probation in Houston, Texas, to determine ways to help them choose safer lifestyles and avoid pregnancy, including better "condom negotiation" tactics." http://washingtonexaminer.com/feds-1...3#.ULe12UbCz8B Why not 'Just say no?" When did that work?
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

3rd December 2012, 08:47 AM	#86
Robert Prey Suspended Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 6,505	Originally Posted by Craig4 http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db89.pdf CDC data would not support the conclusion that teen birthrates are higher now than during the sexual revolution. I submit America is still in the midst of your "Do Your Own Thing" Sexual "Revolution." and any stats regarding Teen "birth rates" must take into account Rowe V. Wade and approximately one million of the unborn murdered each and every year -- a rather extreme method of birth control.
Robert Prey Suspended Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 6,505

3rd December 2012, 08:54 AM	#87
Robert Prey Suspended Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 6,505	Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler "Born out of wedlock" is not the same thing as unwanted pregnancy. We have no legitimate public interest in preventing "out of wedlock" pregnancies. We do have such an interest in preventing unwanted pregnancies. Oh, but there is extreme public interest. Out of wedlock pregnancies tend to produce fatherless children, paid for with funds stolen from taxpayers along with the consequences of directionless children, who learn all about living on the public dole plus street crime, especially wanton murder in the inner cities --due primarily to a mental disease called "Liberalism." Note: 8 more murdered in Chicago this past weekend.
Robert Prey Suspended Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 6,505

3rd December 2012, 08:58 AM	#88
Robert Prey Suspended Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 6,505	Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler To your broader point, even the religious right think tanks have been unable to show that abstinence only programs are effective at reducing unwanted pregnancies or preventing the spread of STDs. That's what you're really promoting as an alternative to any sort of education that includes factual information about contraception and condoms, isn't it? But I have just shown you a chart that tends to prove abstinence works. The use of condoms and/or the pill only leads to promiscuity, unwanted pregnancy and STDs, not to mention spiritual despair.
Robert Prey Suspended Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 6,505

3rd December 2012, 09:02 AM	#89
remirol Senior Wrangler Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Etlanna, Jawja Posts: 7,560	Originally Posted by Robert Prey But I have just shown you a chart that tends to prove abstinence works. The use of condoms and/or the pill only leads to promiscuity, unwanted pregnancy and STDs, not to mention spiritual despair. But we have shown you many other links that prove that abstinence-only fails. In your heart you know we're right.
	__________________ Roguelike player? Info: http://sporkhack.com -- Public server: telnet://sporkhack.com -- The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I will walk carefully. -- old Russian proverb

3rd December 2012, 09:22 AM	#90
Dcdrac Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,684	That chart you mention is put out by the Heritage Foundation a right wing think tank not known for its balanced approach to reporting reality.
Dcdrac Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,684

3rd December 2012, 09:23 AM	#91
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,827	Oh, Uncle Robert, tell us the story about how there was almost no homosexuality at all in America until liberal Hollywood made it attractive to impressionable teenagers. That's my favorite story.
	__________________ Is the JREF message board training wheels for people who hope to one day troll other message boards? It is not that hard to get us to believe you. We are not the major leagues or even the minor leagues. We are Pee-Wee baseball. If you love striking out 10-year-olds, then you'll love trolling our board.

3rd December 2012, 09:32 AM	#92
Redtail Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9,304	Originally Posted by Robert Prey But I have just shown you a chart that tends to prove abstinence works. The use of condoms and/or the pill only leads to promiscuity, unwanted pregnancy and STDs, not to mention spiritual despair. Yeah, no. To date I've spent 25 sexually active years using condoms and/or the pill & it led to some awesome times, great stories, & a beautiful 9 month old son that we planned for. Thus you are once again wrong.
Redtail Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 9,304	__________________ AVENGERS!!!.. Turn off the dark!

3rd December 2012, 09:46 AM	#93
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 23,428	Originally Posted by Robert Prey I submit America is still in the midst of your "Do Your Own Thing" Sexual "Revolution." We've been in a sexual revolution for 50 years? I think that's a little better than two generations. Your submission is rejected. It may be re-submitted with accompanying supportive data.

3rd December 2012, 09:48 AM	#94
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 23,428	Originally Posted by Robert Prey But I have just shown you a chart that tends to prove abstinence works. If you are referring to the last chart you posted, it doesn't show that at all, as was pointed out to you.

3rd December 2012, 09:58 AM	#95
Craig4 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 5,363	Originally Posted by Robert Prey Oh, but there is extreme public interest. Out of wedlock pregnancies tend to produce fatherless children, paid for with funds stolen from taxpayers along with the consequences of directionless children, who learn all about living on the public dole plus street crime, especially wanton murder in the inner cities --due primarily to a mental disease called "Liberalism." Note: 8 more murdered in Chicago this past weekend. Were you a virgin when you married or if you never married are you a virgin now?
Craig4 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 5,363

3rd December 2012, 10:01 AM	#96
Craig4 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 5,363	Originally Posted by Robert Prey Oh, but there is extreme public interest. Out of wedlock pregnancies tend to produce fatherless children, paid for with funds stolen from taxpayers along with the consequences of directionless children, who learn all about living on the public dole plus street crime, especially wanton murder in the inner cities --due primarily to a mental disease called "Liberalism." Note: 8 more murdered in Chicago this past weekend. Well then, it's a good job we're teaching girls to insist on condoms.
Craig4 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 5,363

3rd December 2012, 10:09 AM	#97
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,417	Originally Posted by Robert Prey I submit America is still in the midst of your "Do Your Own Thing" Sexual "Revolution." and any stats regarding Teen "birth rates" must take into account Rowe V. Wade and approximately one million of the unborn murdered each and every year -- a rather extreme method of birth control. Should we be saving sperm? How many unborn are left to die in the porcelain incubator? Can we stop it with the overblown rhetoric? Sperm is not a human being and neither is a zygote.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

3rd December 2012, 10:15 AM	#98
iknownothing Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 1,162	Originally Posted by Robert Prey Just Say No Prior to the so-called sexual "revolution" of the 60s, which just happened to coincide with the invention of the "Pill" and LBJ"s War on Poverty, out of wedlock births among American women were rare. In 1930, approximately 97 percent of births were within marriage compared to 2008, where 40 percent of births were out of wedlock. From this, it can be reasonably inferred, that when sexual temptations occurred, prior to the "Pill" and the sexual "revolution," most unwed American woman just said "no". That depends on your definition of "reasonably". All it really means is that people were usually married by the time of birth. And, I'm afraid to ask but why are you so stuck on whether women were virgins or whether women "just said no"? Doesn't an out-of-wedlock birth involve both a woman and a man who had sex outside of marriage?
	Last edited by iknownothing; 3rd December 2012 at 10:53 AM.

3rd December 2012, 10:47 AM	#99
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 26,833	Originally Posted by Robert Prey But I have just shown you a chart that tends to prove abstinence works. No it didn't. And the claim that "abstinence works" as a response to the observation that "abstinence only sex ed programs do not work" is intellectually dishonest. If you only count people who don't have sex in your outcome measure, you can't possibly fail. That'd be like doing a drug test and only counting the individuals with the results you want and ignoring the rest. Quote: The use of condoms and/or the pill only leads to promiscuity, unwanted pregnancy and STDs, not to mention spiritual despair. This is a false assertion. We can debate that topic, but your position is easily proven wrong. But I don't think it will come to that since you have so little interest in looking at any evidence at all.
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons

3rd December 2012, 11:01 AM	#100
kookbreaker Evil Fokker Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,177	I like how Bobby's chart, despite its leanings, has a leveling off in the 90's during the 'we aren't bothering with abstinace crap' Clinton era and then skyrockets during the Bush 'abstinence and only abstinence!!!' era.
kookbreaker Evil Fokker Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,177	__________________ Thanks for helping me win Best Children's Gifts and Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011 & 2012! Spectrum Scientifics - My store - Google it people!

3rd December 2012, 11:03 AM	#101
Robert Prey Suspended Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 6,505	Originally Posted by RandFan Should we be saving sperm? How many unborn are left to die in the porcelain incubator? http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/5...ficultconc.jpg Can we stop it with the overblown rhetoric? Sperm is not a human being and neither is a zygote. And what is this?????
Robert Prey Suspended Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 6,505

3rd December 2012, 11:05 AM	#102
remirol Senior Wrangler Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Etlanna, Jawja Posts: 7,560	Originally Posted by Robert Prey And what is this????? http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?...pictureid=7023 A drawing.
	__________________ Roguelike player? Info: http://sporkhack.com -- Public server: telnet://sporkhack.com -- The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I will walk carefully. -- old Russian proverb

3rd December 2012, 11:07 AM	#103
Robert Prey Suspended Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 6,505	Originally Posted by Craig4 Well then, it's a good job we're teaching girls to insist on condoms. News flash: Condoms don't work. Failure rate of 14 to 15 percent. http://www.americanpregnancy.org/pre...alecondom.html
Robert Prey Suspended Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 6,505

3rd December 2012, 11:08 AM	#104
ANTPogo Unique Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 9,466	Originally Posted by Robert Prey And what is this????? The last scene of Kubrick's 2001: A Space Odyssey?
	__________________ "A nation can survive with kufr, but not with zulm." - ʿAlī ibn Abī Ṭālib "No more hurting people" - Martin William Richard Currently Reading: Righteous Victims, by Benny Morris

3rd December 2012, 11:09 AM	#105
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,417	Originally Posted by Robert Prey And what is this????? http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?...pictureid=7023 Looks like the drawing of an 18 week - 23 week fetus. Do you have a point?
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

3rd December 2012, 11:10 AM	#106
Robert Prey Suspended Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 6,505	Originally Posted by Dcdrac That chart you mention is put out by the Heritage Foundation a right wing think tank not known for its balanced approach to reporting reality. Nonsense. The source of the chart is US Census and Nat.Bur. of Health Statistics
Robert Prey Suspended Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 6,505

3rd December 2012, 11:11 AM	#107
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 26,833	Originally Posted by Robert Prey News flash: Condoms don't work. Failure rate of 14 to 15 percent. That's a misleading statement. From the Wiki article: Quote: As a method of birth control, male condoms have the advantage of being inexpensive, easy to use, having few side effects, and offering protection against sexually transmitted diseases. With proper knowledge and application technique—and use at every act of intercourse—women whose partners use male condoms experience a 2% per-year pregnancy rate with perfect use and a 15% per-year pregnancy rate with typical use.[1] Even the "typical use" figure is pregnancy rate among women who rely on male condoms for a year. It doesn't mean that each condom has a 15% failure rate, as your statement implies. ETA: And, FWIW, the issue of the difference between the 15% and the 2% rate is at least partly a matter of getting accurate education. Abstinence-only programs actually contribute to the ignorance that can lead to improper use of condoms. As you can see, that failure of compliance (at least some of which is based on ignorance) makes the "failure rate" some 750% greater. ETA: Pointing out that improper use of condoms is a reason not to give young people accurate information about condoms is a really truly bizarre argument.
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons Last edited by JoeTheJuggler; 3rd December 2012 at 11:18 AM.

3rd December 2012, 11:12 AM	#108
Robert Prey Suspended Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 6,505	Originally Posted by RandFan Looks like the drawing of an 18 week - 23 week fetus. Do you have a point? Yes. Abortion kills human life.
Robert Prey Suspended Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 6,505

3rd December 2012, 11:17 AM	#109
TheRedWorm I AM the Red Worm! Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Body: Michigan, Heart: Chicago Posts: 3,907	Originally Posted by Craig4 [Robert,] Were you a virgin when you married or if you never married are you a virgin now? This is a good question. I bet Robert doesn't ever answer this, or even acknowledge that it exists.
	__________________ See I'm not a monster, I'm just ahead of the curve. -Joker Working them to death is murder. Making them live like pigs and dying from disease is murder. Shooting them next to a ditch is murder. Digging them up and burning them to hide your murder, is extra credit evil. -beachnut

3rd December 2012, 11:19 AM	#110
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,417	Originally Posted by Robert Prey Yes. Abortion kills human life. Who is aborting 18 - 23 week old fetuses? Quote: 88-92% of all abortions happen during the first trimester, prior to the 13th week of gestation (AGI/CDC). In 2009, 7% of all abortions were performed at 14-20 weeks' gestation; 1.3% were performed at ≥21 weeks' gestation (CDC).
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith Last edited by RandFan; 3rd December 2012 at 11:22 AM.

3rd December 2012, 11:21 AM	#111
remirol Senior Wrangler Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Etlanna, Jawja Posts: 7,560	Originally Posted by Robert Prey Yes. Abortion kills human life. No. In your heart you know I'm right.
	__________________ Roguelike player? Info: http://sporkhack.com -- Public server: telnet://sporkhack.com -- The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I will walk carefully. -- old Russian proverb

3rd December 2012, 11:21 AM	#112
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 26,833	Robert Prey, would you rather young people learn about condoms in the classroom or on the street (or worse--by trial and error)? You're not so naive as to think that if we don't provide young people with accurate information about condoms they won't know condoms exist?
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons

3rd December 2012, 11:22 AM	#113
remirol Senior Wrangler Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Etlanna, Jawja Posts: 7,560	Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler Robert Prey, would you rather young people learn about condoms in the classroom or on the street (or worse--by trial and error)? You're not so naive as to think that if we don't provide young people with accurate information about condoms they won't know condoms exist? Prediction: he will admit that they will learn, and blame it all on the evil liberal socialist commie media, like FOX News.
	__________________ Roguelike player? Info: http://sporkhack.com -- Public server: telnet://sporkhack.com -- The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I will walk carefully. -- old Russian proverb

3rd December 2012, 11:24 AM	#114
Corsair 115 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Tranquility Base Posts: 8,589	Originally Posted by Robert Prey Yes. Abortion kills human life. So does malnutrition and easily prevented infectious diseases. Indeed, according to the WHO, some 6.9 million children under the age of five died around the world last year, of which at least half were from easily preventable causes. Strangely, those lives lost never seem to get any attention from many of the anti-abortion crowd, young lives that could be saved today with just a little bit of effort. Instead, the complain vociferously about children being killed by abortion, and for all their efforts, how many lives have their anti-abortion efforts actually saved? (I could also remark how the anti-abortion movement generally seems unconcerned with the 'human life' routinely destroyed by fertility clinics. But I suspect the picture of a freshly fertilized ovum doesn't angry up their blood as much as a picture of a thrity-week-old fetus. Call me cynical if you wish.)
	__________________ "We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win."

3rd December 2012, 11:26 AM	#115
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 26,833	Originally Posted by remirol Prediction: he will admit that they will learn, and blame it all on the evil liberal socialist commie media, like FOX News. Or maybe he wants us to rely on a private sector solution: let the condom manufacturers be the only sources of information about condoms. Of course, then you'd need some sort of draconian Nanny-state rules to prevent anyone else from talking about condoms. . . . Why do you hate freedom, Robert?
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons