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Reality Check · 16th December 2012, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Let me edit that to less than 2 days.

Thimerosal in Vaccines
The children died in less than 2 days.
The Royal Commission said that they died of infection.
Thus the children died of infection in less than 2 days. Duh

!

r-j · 17th December 2012, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by Estellea

Actually, this has been done as a result of MMR withdrawal in Japan and autism rates actually increased after MMR was no longer given.

Tough luck Clay.

I read the entire study, and was shocked to find out why they stopped giving the MMR vaccine.

r-j · 17th December 2012, 09:17 AM

Also, I did not realize the MMR vaccine was all live virus. So no mercury as as an antispetic agent. Why is MMR associated with mercury in this case?

Chris Haynes · 17th December 2012, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by r-j

... Why is MMR associated with mercury in this case?

It is only by those who are ignorant about the issues. Almost ten years ago I was on a listserv for my son's disability. Someone asked a question about the MMR vaccine, and another person replied with a warning on thimerosal. I then replied saying: "For clarification, the MMR vaccine has never contained thimerosal."

Then the person who had posted a warning on thimerosal emailed the moderator telling her to ban me from the listserv for not being up on the science. I replied that all she had to do was provide the evidence the MMR contained thimerosal, while providing CDC links explaining why it never contained it. They backed down.

Then on any online discussion I would note that you can tell the level of knowledge someone had on vaccines was in the basement when they said this phrase: "the thimerosal in the MMR vaccine." It is somewhere up there with "vaccines being directly injected in the bloodstream."

Estellea · 17th December 2012, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by r-j

I read the entire study, and was shocked to find out why they stopped giving the MMR vaccine.

Why? The Urabe mumps vaccine strain was associated with an increased risk of asceptic meningitis. Unfortunately, the Japanese government is too stubborn and nationalistic to import MMR-II and will not implement a vaccine programme to provide adequate measles, mumps and rubella coverage.

Originally Posted by r-j

Also, I did not realize the MMR vaccine was all live virus. So no mercury as as an antispetic agent. Why is MMR associated with mercury in this case?

Clay stated that MMR and MMR-V contained "heavy metals" and as Chris explained is the hallmark of ignorant anti-vaxx rhetoric. Clay refuses to either provide substantiation or admit he made a mistake.

Este

Clayton Moore · 17th December 2012, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Estellea

No Clay, there is no evidence of "hundreds of thousands" of parents claiming that. There were only a handful in the UK GSK suit and 5K in the US NVICP OAP. And if you would bother to read the OAP transcripts (which I know you won't do) it is obvious the tenuous grasp on reality that the parents and the "experts" actually had. I'm still waiting for you to tell me how "heavy metals" are in MMR and MMR-V. Can't you answer this Clay?

I've pointed out your offence before and I will do it just one more time. Autists aren't as good as dead; autism isn't a death sentence. There are quite a few autists on this board and your statements are very offensive and wrong. Having worked with adult autists and having child autists in my life, you are clearly ignorant on the subject so just stop trying to characterise autism.

Este

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnxAsrAK2hw

Really? Take the time to view this.

We as humans have no way to process Mercury.
See 15 minutes into the video.

Lukraak_Sisser · 17th December 2012, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnxAsrAK2hw

Really? Take the time to view this.

We as humans have no way to process Mercury.
See 15 minutes into the video.

But we do have a way to excrete it from the body. You do it daily (at least, most people do)
Thiomersal halflife in a mammal is well studied.

dafydd · 17th December 2012, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnxAsrAK2hw

Really? Take the time to view this.

We as humans have no way to process Mercury.
See 15 minutes into the video.

What about some real evidence instead of YooToob?

frenat · 17th December 2012, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by dafydd

What about some real evidence instead of YooToob?

There's evidence outside of Youtube? What, you mean like yahoo video, vimeo, or metacafe?

dafydd · 17th December 2012, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by frenat

There's evidence outside of Youtube? What, you mean like yahoo video, vimeo, or metacafe?

I was thinking along the lines of real studies carried out by people who actually know what they are talking about.

Clayton Moore · 17th December 2012, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by dafydd

I was thinking along the lines of real studies carried out by people who actually know what they are talking about.

I'm sure the parent's whose two of three triplets became autistic after mmr vaccinations know what they are talking about..

Lukraak_Sisser · 17th December 2012, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

I'm sure the parent's whose two of three triplets became autistic after mmr vaccinations know what they are talking about..

Because they have a degree in medicine/biochemistry/genetics and did an extensive study with controls, double blinds and everything else required to actually rise above and beyond mere conjecture?
I'd love to see their papers with data.

LSSBB · 17th December 2012, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

I'm sure the parent's whose two of three triplets became autistic after mmr vaccinations know what they are talking about..

Individual data points can show up all over the map. What do the aggregates show, Clayton?

By the way, why aren't you answering Bram Kaandorp regarding your little "Death Sentence" dramatic tootsie roll you left on the carpet? Left speechless? Are you afraid to touch it?

dafydd · 17th December 2012, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

I'm sure the parent's whose two of three triplets became autistic after mmr vaccinations know what they are talking about..

After they ruled out all other causes? My youngest brother has four daughters, one of whom is severely autistic. They were all vaccinated with MMR, and he doesn't blame the vaccines.

jdc324 · 17th December 2012, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser

But we do have a way to excrete it from the body. You do it daily (at least, most people do)
Thiomersal halflife in a mammal is well studied.

I pointed out to Clayton (several pages ago, with references) that we excrete ethylmercury (I even told him how we did so).

He seems to have completely ignored that. No doubt he will do so again.

Reality Check · 17th December 2012, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

I'm sure the parent's whose two of three triplets became autistic after mmr vaccinations know what they are talking about..

I'm sure that the parents of the millions of children who did not became autistic after MMR vaccinations know what they are talking about too.
So what?

jdc324 · 17th December 2012, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by Estellea

Actually, this has been done as a result of MMR withdrawal in Japan and autism rates actually increased after MMR was no longer given.

Tough luck Clay.

ETA: Eventually the monovalent vaccines were used and mumps and rubella incidence has gone up steadily since the withdrawal of MMR due to changes in vaccine recommendations.

Este

There's also the studies discussed here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2908388/ which address both rates of autism and age of onset.

"...investigators did not observe a clustering of autism diagnoses relative to the time that children received MMR vaccine, nor did they observe a difference in age at autism diagnosis between those vaccinated and not vaccinated or between those vaccinated before or after 18 months of age"

"...an increase in autism diagnoses despite stable MMR vaccination rates"

"...the increase in the number of autism diagnoses did not correlate with MMR vaccination rates"

"Autism rates increased coincident with a decrease in MMR vaccination rates."

"Of 309 children hospitalized for autistic disorders, no clustering occurred relative to the time of MMR vaccination."

"The authors observed no differences in the relative risk of autism between those who did and those who did not receive MMR vaccine. Among autistic children, no relationship between date of vaccination and development of autism was observed."

"The authors observed no differences in age at vaccination between autistic and nonautistic children, which suggests that early age of MMR vaccine exposure was not a risk factor for autism."

Clayton doesn't seem to understand the the questions he's seeking answers to have already been asked and answered by researchers. If he bothered to actually look at the evidence which is constantly spoon-fed to him on this thread he'd be well-aware of the research that has already been conducted: research that renders his proposed study redundant. He probably won't read what I'm about to post, either.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...rse-of-autism/

Quote:

Prior studies using home movies have shown that signs of autism can be detected between 8-12 months. A study looking at head circumference found statistical differences prior to 12 months. And one study looking at movements found differences between 4-6 months. So it seems the consensus of current evidence is that objective and detectable signs of autism emerge between 6-12 months. This study does not support detection prior to 6 months, but other studies do suggest this might be possible.

I do wonder what Clayton might make of the claim that "the consensus of current evidence is that objective and detectable signs of autism emerge between 6-12 months" in light of the US vaccination schedule. I won't expect him to click on any links I provide, but I will point out that MMR, according to the schedule, should be given at 12-15 months. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/...-iz-babies.pdf

Estellea · 17th December 2012, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnxAsrAK2hw

Really? Take the time to view this.

We as humans have no way to process Mercury.
See 15 minutes into the video.

No Clayton; I don't watch YooToob videos to obtain scientific data. I've read the OAP transcripts; I've read a good deal of Wakefield's GMC FTP transcripts and you simply do not have any data to support your claim that MMR causes autism nor that hundreds of thousands of parents claim so nor that heavy metals are in MMR. Come up with studies Clayton; I'm not interested in silly videos.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

I'm sure the parent's whose two of three triplets became autistic after mmr vaccinations know what they are talking about..

Actually they don't. A well known "autism mum" has three daughters who are autistic; the first two were vaccinated; the third was not. Mum still blames vaccines. Better than blaming their own genes in their minds.

Este

Clayton Moore · 17th December 2012, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by Estellea

Actually they don't. A well known "autism mum" has three daughters who are autistic; the first two were vaccinated; the third was not. Mum still blames vaccines. Better than blaming their own genes in their minds.

Este

Link?

jdc324 · 17th December 2012, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Link?

While you're killing time waiting for that link, there are some in #3085 for you to take a look at.

Bram Kaandorp · 17th December 2012, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by LSSBB

By the way, why aren't you answering Bram Kaandorp regarding your little "Death Sentence" dramatic tootsie roll you left on the carpet? Left speechless? Are you afraid to touch it?

Thank you. Someone notices.

Got an answer, Clayton?

abaddon · 17th December 2012, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by Bram Kaandorp

Thank you. Someone notices.

Got an answer, Clayton?

More than one. I await CM's response with interest.

Giordano · 17th December 2012, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

I'm sure the parent's whose two of three triplets became autistic after mmr vaccinations know what they are talking about..

There are many parents in the world who are convinced their children became ill due to witchcraft. Do they know what they are talking about?

Honestly Clayton, you've returned to this argument over and over again: some tiny percent of parents believe vaccines caused autism in their children. Why would their anedoctal opinion have any validity, given their lack of knowledge of medicine, disease, and statistics, compared to the conclusions of doctors and scientists who have actually done detailed, large studies?? Having that pointed out to you over and over again, how on earth can you believe this is such a convincing point that you bother to repeat it?

Giordano · 17th December 2012, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnxAsrAK2hw

Really? Take the time to view this.

We as humans have no way to process Mercury.
See 15 minutes into the video.

Wrong- we process and excrete mercury in many different ways that help remove it from the body. See the past hundred years of scientific study. Here's one summary:

http://enhs.umn.edu/current/5103_spr.../mercdose.html

You would easily have found this information if you bothered to actually research the question rather than wasting your time watching a biased YouTube video.

As I've warned you before, the websites you cite are lying to you.
Remember the old saying, "Fool me once shame on you...?"

Estellea · 17th December 2012, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Link?

http://kimstagliano.blogspot.com/200...07-versus.html
And Ms. Stagliano did not have a flu jab when she was pregnant; she was speaking in general. She is blaming her childhood vaccines on the unvaccinated child's autism. Anti-vaxx ignorance knows no depths.

Este

Estellea · 17th December 2012, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by Bram Kaandorp

Thank you. Someone notices.

Got an answer, Clayton?

Don't hold your breath. Clayton doesn't correct his errors nor apologise for insulting an entire population of people and their families.

Este

dafydd · 17th December 2012, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by Estellea

Don't hold your breath. Clayton doesn't correct his errors nor apologise for insulting an entire population of people and their families.

Este

Maybe Clayton thinks that my brother should just strangle his daughter?

Clayton Moore · 19th December 2012, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by Estellea

http://kimstagliano.blogspot.com/200...07-versus.html
And Ms. Stagliano did not have a flu jab when she was pregnant; she was speaking in general. She is blaming her childhood vaccines on the unvaccinated child's autism. Anti-vaxx ignorance knows no depths.

Este

Quote:

OK, I'll let you think about this. Below is the recommended vaccination schedule for babies born in 2007 versus babies born in 1983. Each vaccine is tested individually for safety. The vaccines are not tested as a sum introduction to developing immune systems over a period of mere months. Too much water will screw up your system. You'd never take a Tylenol with a Motrin and an aspirin, although on their own, each pill works well.

How about too many vaccines? Autism rates are now at 1 in 150 from 1 in 10,000 a few decades ago. And don't forget peanut allergies, asthma, ADHD, severe mental illness like 5 year olds with bi-polar have risen dramatically too.

Thanks for the stupid, not, link.

Clayton Moore · 19th December 2012, 11:17 AM

Check out page 56 of the December 2012 issue of Scientific American. Is Drug Research Trustworthy?

I'm sure Vaccine Research is also behaving just as badly or worse.

Mister Earl · 19th December 2012, 11:20 AM

Do you think an argument made from incredulity is reason enough to put children and infants at risk of serious harm or death acceptable, Clayton? If so, why?

jdc324 · 19th December 2012, 11:58 AM

Clayton, why aren't you responding to polite, relevant posts that have been addressed to you? Don't you want to engage in honest debate? You might find the evidence you've been pointed to and the questions you've been asked inconvenient but I think it's rather rude to ignore them - and it makes it harder to have a proper discussion if people pick and choose which posts to respond to and which to ignore. (Particularly when those posts being ignored contain important evidence that is relevant to one or more strands of the discussion, or questions that would, if answered, make a viewpoint clear.)

pakeha · 19th December 2012, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Check out page 56 of the December 2012 issue of Scientific American. Is Drug Research Trustworthy?

I'm sure Vaccine Research is also behaving just as badly or worse.

Why?

jdc324 · 19th December 2012, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by pakeha

Why?

I think what Clayton is doing is referring to the problems with drug company-funded research (the kind of thing documented in Ben Goldacre's Bad Pharma) and insinuating that because there are issues with research sponsored by Big Pharma there must be issues with the research people cite in this thread on vaccination. Which, as far as I can tell, tends to be work conducted by independent researchers (e.g. the research on MMR and autism that we keep posting and Clayton keeps ignoring).

I think there was some fairly detailed discussion of this earlier in the thread, where the nature of the research demonstrating that there was no link between MMR and autism was covered. Of course, that won't stop Clayton repeating canards that have already been debunked. There appears to be nothing that will.

pakeha · 19th December 2012, 12:36 PM

Thanks, jdc324.
At the end of the day, CM's arguments seem based more on rumour and innuendo than anything else, don't they?

Hellbound · 19th December 2012, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by pakeha

Thanks, jdc324.
At the end of the day, CM's arguments seem based more on rumour and innuendo than anything else, don't they?

Well, to be fair, what else could they be based on?

It's not like there's any evidence supporting his position.

shuttlt · 19th December 2012, 01:53 PM

Surely the only way to progress this is to find out why it is that Clayton believes vaccines cause autism? The arguments in favor of a link appear to me to be justifications after the fact using any anecdotes and quotes that can be found. I take it this isn't Clayton's only fringe belief?

dafydd · 19th December 2012, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by shuttlt

Surely the only way to progress this is to find out why it is that Clayton believes vaccines cause autism? The arguments in favor of a link appear to me to be justifications after the fact using any anecdotes and quotes that can be found. I take it this isn't Clayton's only fringe belief?

Correct. Holocaust denial too.

shuttlt · 19th December 2012, 02:19 PM

That's atypical. Normally anti-vaxers are coiming from a more new-age/homeopathy/electric fields kind of place. Holocaust denial is a new one on me. Presumably the link is the victim/conspiracy angle.

If you ask me, which you haven't, lots of the fringe posters enjoy dramatizing their lives with some narrative involving secret knowledge, magic, and conspiracies etc. Does Clayton actually want to be convinced by something less exciting?

dafydd · 19th December 2012, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by shuttlt

That's atypical. Normally anti-vaxers are coiming from a more new-age/homeopathy/electric fields kind of place. Holocaust denial is a new one on me. Presumably the link is the victim/conspiracy angle.

If you ask me, which you haven't, lots of the fringe posters enjoy dramatizing their lives with some narrative involving secret knowledge, magic, and conspiracies etc. Does Clayton actually want to be convinced by something less exciting?

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...33904&page=141

CORed · 19th December 2012, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by dafydd

Correct. Holocaust denial too.

Also 9/11 truther.

16th December 2012, 06:00 PM	#3121
Reality Check Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: New Zealand Posts: 10,978	Originally Posted by Clayton Moore Let me edit that to less than 2 days. Thimerosal in Vaccines The children died in less than 2 days. The Royal Commission said that they died of infection. Thus the children died of infection in less than 2 days. Duh !
	__________________ Real Science: NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter (another observation) (and Abell 520) "Our Undiscovered Universe" by Terence Witt: Review 1; Review 2

17th December 2012, 09:16 AM	#3122
r-j Often found wandering in a fog of confusion Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: the warm and sunny south Posts: 1,494	Originally Posted by Estellea Actually, this has been done as a result of MMR withdrawal in Japan and autism rates actually increased after MMR was no longer given. Tough luck Clay. I read the entire study, and was shocked to find out why they stopped giving the MMR vaccine.
	__________________ ab initio

17th December 2012, 09:17 AM	#3123
r-j Often found wandering in a fog of confusion Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: the warm and sunny south Posts: 1,494	Also, I did not realize the MMR vaccine was all live virus. So no mercury as as an antispetic agent. Why is MMR associated with mercury in this case?
	__________________ ab initio

17th December 2012, 10:28 AM	#3124
Chris Haynes Perfectly Poisonous Person Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Wacky Washington Way Out West Posts: 4,214	Originally Posted by r-j ... Why is MMR associated with mercury in this case? It is only by those who are ignorant about the issues. Almost ten years ago I was on a listserv for my son's disability. Someone asked a question about the MMR vaccine, and another person replied with a warning on thimerosal. I then replied saying: "For clarification, the MMR vaccine has never contained thimerosal." Then the person who had posted a warning on thimerosal emailed the moderator telling her to ban me from the listserv for not being up on the science. I replied that all she had to do was provide the evidence the MMR contained thimerosal, while providing CDC links explaining why it never contained it. They backed down. Then on any online discussion I would note that you can tell the level of knowledge someone had on vaccines was in the basement when they said this phrase: "the thimerosal in the MMR vaccine." It is somewhere up there with "vaccines being directly injected in the bloodstream."
	__________________ I used to be intelligent... but then I had kids "HCN, I hate you!" ( so sayeth Deetee at http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1077344 )... What I get for linking to http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/

17th December 2012, 11:04 AM	#3126
Clayton Moore Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 6,354	Originally Posted by Estellea No Clay, there is no evidence of "hundreds of thousands" of parents claiming that. There were only a handful in the UK GSK suit and 5K in the US NVICP OAP. And if you would bother to read the OAP transcripts (which I know you won't do) it is obvious the tenuous grasp on reality that the parents and the "experts" actually had. I'm still waiting for you to tell me how "heavy metals" are in MMR and MMR-V. Can't you answer this Clay? I've pointed out your offence before and I will do it just one more time. Autists aren't as good as dead; autism isn't a death sentence. There are quite a few autists on this board and your statements are very offensive and wrong. Having worked with adult autists and having child autists in my life, you are clearly ignorant on the subject so just stop trying to characterise autism. Este https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnxAsrAK2hw Really? Take the time to view this. We as humans have no way to process Mercury. See 15 minutes into the video.
	__________________ Shitat Matzliach is why the Holohoax works. The same neoconservative scum who engineered 9/11 and got the US into two wars want American troops to sacrifice their lives in Syria and Iran. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhc7M...Mc4eb2TClVRQws http://rememberbuilding7.org/10/#aevideo http://www2.ae911truth.org/actionale...rBuilding7.php

17th December 2012, 10:45 AM	#3125
Estellea Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,132	Originally Posted by r-j I read the entire study, and was shocked to find out why they stopped giving the MMR vaccine. Why? The Urabe mumps vaccine strain was associated with an increased risk of asceptic meningitis. Unfortunately, the Japanese government is too stubborn and nationalistic to import MMR-II and will not implement a vaccine programme to provide adequate measles, mumps and rubella coverage. Originally Posted by r-j Also, I did not realize the MMR vaccine was all live virus. So no mercury as as an antispetic agent. Why is MMR associated with mercury in this case? Clay stated that MMR and MMR-V contained "heavy metals" and as Chris explained is the hallmark of ignorant anti-vaxx rhetoric. Clay refuses to either provide substantiation or admit he made a mistake. Este

17th December 2012, 11:15 AM	#3127
Lukraak_Sisser Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 1,637	Originally Posted by Clayton Moore https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnxAsrAK2hw Really? Take the time to view this. We as humans have no way to process Mercury. See 15 minutes into the video. But we do have a way to excrete it from the body. You do it daily (at least, most people do) Thiomersal halflife in a mammal is well studied.

17th December 2012, 11:57 AM	#3128
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,680	Originally Posted by Clayton Moore https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnxAsrAK2hw Really? Take the time to view this. We as humans have no way to process Mercury. See 15 minutes into the video. What about some real evidence instead of YooToob?
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

17th December 2012, 12:08 PM	#3129
frenat Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 267	Originally Posted by dafydd What about some real evidence instead of YooToob? There's evidence outside of Youtube? What, you mean like yahoo video, vimeo, or metacafe?
frenat Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 267	__________________ -Reality is not determined by your lack of comprehension. -Never let facts stand in the way of a good conspiracy theory. -There are no bad ideas, just great ideas that go horribly wrong.

17th December 2012, 12:29 PM	#3130
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,680	Originally Posted by frenat There's evidence outside of Youtube? What, you mean like yahoo video, vimeo, or metacafe? I was thinking along the lines of real studies carried out by people who actually know what they are talking about.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

17th December 2012, 12:36 PM	#3131
Clayton Moore Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 6,354	Originally Posted by dafydd I was thinking along the lines of real studies carried out by people who actually know what they are talking about. I'm sure the parent's whose two of three triplets became autistic after mmr vaccinations know what they are talking about..
	__________________ Shitat Matzliach is why the Holohoax works. The same neoconservative scum who engineered 9/11 and got the US into two wars want American troops to sacrifice their lives in Syria and Iran. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhc7M...Mc4eb2TClVRQws http://rememberbuilding7.org/10/#aevideo http://www2.ae911truth.org/actionale...rBuilding7.php

17th December 2012, 12:44 PM	#3132
Lukraak_Sisser Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 1,637	Originally Posted by Clayton Moore I'm sure the parent's whose two of three triplets became autistic after mmr vaccinations know what they are talking about.. Because they have a degree in medicine/biochemistry/genetics and did an extensive study with controls, double blinds and everything else required to actually rise above and beyond mere conjecture? I'd love to see their papers with data.

17th December 2012, 12:55 PM	#3133
LSSBB Devilish Dictionarian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: An elusive house at Bachelor's Grove Cemetery Posts: 4,739	Originally Posted by Clayton Moore I'm sure the parent's whose two of three triplets became autistic after mmr vaccinations know what they are talking about.. Individual data points can show up all over the map. What do the aggregates show, Clayton? By the way, why aren't you answering Bram Kaandorp regarding your little "Death Sentence" dramatic tootsie roll you left on the carpet? Left speechless? Are you afraid to touch it?
	__________________ "Things that never happened before happen all the time." (Scott Sagan, 1993) "Put down the Wite-Out and step away from the dictionary." (000063, 2012) "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof." (John Kenneth Galbraith, 1971)

17th December 2012, 12:55 PM	#3134
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,680	Originally Posted by Clayton Moore I'm sure the parent's whose two of three triplets became autistic after mmr vaccinations know what they are talking about.. After they ruled out all other causes? My youngest brother has four daughters, one of whom is severely autistic. They were all vaccinated with MMR, and he doesn't blame the vaccines.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

17th December 2012, 12:58 PM	#3135
jdc324 Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 491	Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser But we do have a way to excrete it from the body. You do it daily (at least, most people do) Thiomersal halflife in a mammal is well studied. I pointed out to Clayton (several pages ago, with references) that we excrete ethylmercury (I even told him how we did so). He seems to have completely ignored that. No doubt he will do so again.
jdc324 Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 491	__________________ Bumbling charlatan

17th December 2012, 01:21 PM	#3136
Reality Check Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: New Zealand Posts: 10,978	Originally Posted by Clayton Moore I'm sure the parent's whose two of three triplets became autistic after mmr vaccinations know what they are talking about.. I'm sure that the parents of the millions of children who did not became autistic after MMR vaccinations know what they are talking about too. So what?
	__________________ Real Science: NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter (another observation) (and Abell 520) "Our Undiscovered Universe" by Terence Witt: Review 1; Review 2

17th December 2012, 01:23 PM	#3137
jdc324 Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 491	Originally Posted by Estellea Actually, this has been done as a result of MMR withdrawal in Japan and autism rates actually increased after MMR was no longer given. Tough luck Clay. ETA: Eventually the monovalent vaccines were used and mumps and rubella incidence has gone up steadily since the withdrawal of MMR due to changes in vaccine recommendations. Este There's also the studies discussed here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2908388/ which address both rates of autism and age of onset. "...investigators did not observe a clustering of autism diagnoses relative to the time that children received MMR vaccine, nor did they observe a difference in age at autism diagnosis between those vaccinated and not vaccinated or between those vaccinated before or after 18 months of age" "...an increase in autism diagnoses despite stable MMR vaccination rates" "...the increase in the number of autism diagnoses did not correlate with MMR vaccination rates" "Autism rates increased coincident with a decrease in MMR vaccination rates." "Of 309 children hospitalized for autistic disorders, no clustering occurred relative to the time of MMR vaccination." "The authors observed no differences in the relative risk of autism between those who did and those who did not receive MMR vaccine. Among autistic children, no relationship between date of vaccination and development of autism was observed." "The authors observed no differences in age at vaccination between autistic and nonautistic children, which suggests that early age of MMR vaccine exposure was not a risk factor for autism." Clayton doesn't seem to understand the the questions he's seeking answers to have already been asked and answered by researchers. If he bothered to actually look at the evidence which is constantly spoon-fed to him on this thread he'd be well-aware of the research that has already been conducted: research that renders his proposed study redundant. He probably won't read what I'm about to post, either. http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...rse-of-autism/ Quote: Prior studies using home movies have shown that signs of autism can be detected between 8-12 months. A study looking at head circumference found statistical differences prior to 12 months. And one study looking at movements found differences between 4-6 months. So it seems the consensus of current evidence is that objective and detectable signs of autism emerge between 6-12 months. This study does not support detection prior to 6 months, but other studies do suggest this might be possible. I do wonder what Clayton might make of the claim that "the consensus of current evidence is that objective and detectable signs of autism emerge between 6-12 months" in light of the US vaccination schedule. I won't expect him to click on any links I provide, but I will point out that MMR, according to the schedule, should be given at 12-15 months. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/...-iz-babies.pdf
jdc324 Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 491	__________________ Bumbling charlatan

17th December 2012, 01:46 PM	#3138
Estellea Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,132	Originally Posted by Clayton Moore https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnxAsrAK2hw Really? Take the time to view this. We as humans have no way to process Mercury. See 15 minutes into the video. No Clayton; I don't watch YooToob videos to obtain scientific data. I've read the OAP transcripts; I've read a good deal of Wakefield's GMC FTP transcripts and you simply do not have any data to support your claim that MMR causes autism nor that hundreds of thousands of parents claim so nor that heavy metals are in MMR. Come up with studies Clayton; I'm not interested in silly videos. Originally Posted by Clayton Moore I'm sure the parent's whose two of three triplets became autistic after mmr vaccinations know what they are talking about.. Actually they don't. A well known "autism mum" has three daughters who are autistic; the first two were vaccinated; the third was not. Mum still blames vaccines. Better than blaming their own genes in their minds. Este

17th December 2012, 02:00 PM	#3139
Clayton Moore Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 6,354	Originally Posted by Estellea Actually they don't. A well known "autism mum" has three daughters who are autistic; the first two were vaccinated; the third was not. Mum still blames vaccines. Better than blaming their own genes in their minds. Este Link?
	__________________ Shitat Matzliach is why the Holohoax works. The same neoconservative scum who engineered 9/11 and got the US into two wars want American troops to sacrifice their lives in Syria and Iran. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhc7M...Mc4eb2TClVRQws http://rememberbuilding7.org/10/#aevideo http://www2.ae911truth.org/actionale...rBuilding7.php

17th December 2012, 02:04 PM	#3140
jdc324 Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 491	Originally Posted by Clayton Moore Link? While you're killing time waiting for that link, there are some in #3085 for you to take a look at.
jdc324 Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 491	__________________ Bumbling charlatan

17th December 2012, 02:08 PM	#3141
Bram Kaandorp Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Netherlands Posts: 2,264	Originally Posted by LSSBB By the way, why aren't you answering Bram Kaandorp regarding your little "Death Sentence" dramatic tootsie roll you left on the carpet? Left speechless? Are you afraid to touch it? Thank you. Someone notices. Got an answer, Clayton?
	__________________ If autism is a "living death", does that make me a zombie? If so, that'd be great. Just don't get your brain in my general vicinity.

17th December 2012, 02:41 PM	#3142
abaddon Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 3,783	Originally Posted by Bram Kaandorp Thank you. Someone notices. Got an answer, Clayton? More than one. I await CM's response with interest.
abaddon Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 3,783	__________________ Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?

17th December 2012, 02:49 PM	#3143
Giordano Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 1,393	Originally Posted by Clayton Moore I'm sure the parent's whose two of three triplets became autistic after mmr vaccinations know what they are talking about.. There are many parents in the world who are convinced their children became ill due to witchcraft. Do they know what they are talking about? Honestly Clayton, you've returned to this argument over and over again: some tiny percent of parents believe vaccines caused autism in their children. Why would their anedoctal opinion have any validity, given their lack of knowledge of medicine, disease, and statistics, compared to the conclusions of doctors and scientists who have actually done detailed, large studies?? Having that pointed out to you over and over again, how on earth can you believe this is such a convincing point that you bother to repeat it?

17th December 2012, 03:03 PM	#3144
Giordano Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 1,393	Originally Posted by Clayton Moore https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnxAsrAK2hw Really? Take the time to view this. We as humans have no way to process Mercury. See 15 minutes into the video. Wrong- we process and excrete mercury in many different ways that help remove it from the body. See the past hundred years of scientific study. Here's one summary: http://enhs.umn.edu/current/5103_spr.../mercdose.html You would easily have found this information if you bothered to actually research the question rather than wasting your time watching a biased YouTube video. As I've warned you before, the websites you cite are lying to you. Remember the old saying, "Fool me once shame on you...?"

17th December 2012, 04:17 PM	#3145
Estellea Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,132	Originally Posted by Clayton Moore Link? http://kimstagliano.blogspot.com/200...07-versus.html And Ms. Stagliano did not have a flu jab when she was pregnant; she was speaking in general. She is blaming her childhood vaccines on the unvaccinated child's autism. Anti-vaxx ignorance knows no depths. Este

17th December 2012, 04:20 PM	#3146
Estellea Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,132	Originally Posted by Bram Kaandorp Thank you. Someone notices. Got an answer, Clayton? Don't hold your breath. Clayton doesn't correct his errors nor apologise for insulting an entire population of people and their families. Este

17th December 2012, 04:31 PM	#3147
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,680	Originally Posted by Estellea Don't hold your breath. Clayton doesn't correct his errors nor apologise for insulting an entire population of people and their families. Este Maybe Clayton thinks that my brother should just strangle his daughter?
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

19th December 2012, 11:11 AM	#3148
Clayton Moore Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 6,354	Originally Posted by Estellea http://kimstagliano.blogspot.com/200...07-versus.html And Ms. Stagliano did not have a flu jab when she was pregnant; she was speaking in general. She is blaming her childhood vaccines on the unvaccinated child's autism. Anti-vaxx ignorance knows no depths. Este Quote: OK, I'll let you think about this. Below is the recommended vaccination schedule for babies born in 2007 versus babies born in 1983. Each vaccine is tested individually for safety. The vaccines are not tested as a sum introduction to developing immune systems over a period of mere months. Too much water will screw up your system. You'd never take a Tylenol with a Motrin and an aspirin, although on their own, each pill works well. How about too many vaccines? Autism rates are now at 1 in 150 from 1 in 10,000 a few decades ago. And don't forget peanut allergies, asthma, ADHD, severe mental illness like 5 year olds with bi-polar have risen dramatically too. Thanks for the stupid, not, link.
	__________________ Shitat Matzliach is why the Holohoax works. The same neoconservative scum who engineered 9/11 and got the US into two wars want American troops to sacrifice their lives in Syria and Iran. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhc7M...Mc4eb2TClVRQws http://rememberbuilding7.org/10/#aevideo http://www2.ae911truth.org/actionale...rBuilding7.php

19th December 2012, 11:17 AM	#3149
Clayton Moore Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 6,354	Check out page 56 of the December 2012 issue of Scientific American. Is Drug Research Trustworthy? I'm sure Vaccine Research is also behaving just as badly or worse.
	__________________ Shitat Matzliach is why the Holohoax works. The same neoconservative scum who engineered 9/11 and got the US into two wars want American troops to sacrifice their lives in Syria and Iran. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhc7M...Mc4eb2TClVRQws http://rememberbuilding7.org/10/#aevideo http://www2.ae911truth.org/actionale...rBuilding7.php

19th December 2012, 11:20 AM	#3150
Mister Earl Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 2,256	Do you think an argument made from incredulity is reason enough to put children and infants at risk of serious harm or death acceptable, Clayton? If so, why?

19th December 2012, 11:58 AM	#3151
jdc324 Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 491	Clayton, why aren't you responding to polite, relevant posts that have been addressed to you? Don't you want to engage in honest debate? You might find the evidence you've been pointed to and the questions you've been asked inconvenient but I think it's rather rude to ignore them - and it makes it harder to have a proper discussion if people pick and choose which posts to respond to and which to ignore. (Particularly when those posts being ignored contain important evidence that is relevant to one or more strands of the discussion, or questions that would, if answered, make a viewpoint clear.)
jdc324 Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 491	__________________ Bumbling charlatan

19th December 2012, 12:15 PM	#3152
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 8,239	Originally Posted by Clayton Moore Check out page 56 of the December 2012 issue of Scientific American. Is Drug Research Trustworthy? I'm sure Vaccine Research is also behaving just as badly or worse. Why?
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 8,239

19th December 2012, 12:27 PM	#3153
jdc324 Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 491	Originally Posted by pakeha Why? I think what Clayton is doing is referring to the problems with drug company-funded research (the kind of thing documented in Ben Goldacre's Bad Pharma) and insinuating that because there are issues with research sponsored by Big Pharma there must be issues with the research people cite in this thread on vaccination. Which, as far as I can tell, tends to be work conducted by independent researchers (e.g. the research on MMR and autism that we keep posting and Clayton keeps ignoring). I think there was some fairly detailed discussion of this earlier in the thread, where the nature of the research demonstrating that there was no link between MMR and autism was covered. Of course, that won't stop Clayton repeating canards that have already been debunked. There appears to be nothing that will.
jdc324 Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 491	__________________ Bumbling charlatan

19th December 2012, 12:36 PM	#3154
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 8,239	Thanks, jdc324. At the end of the day, CM's arguments seem based more on rumour and innuendo than anything else, don't they?
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 8,239

19th December 2012, 12:38 PM	#3155
Hellbound Abiogenic Spongiform Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: In a handbasket Posts: 9,030	Originally Posted by pakeha Thanks, jdc324. At the end of the day, CM's arguments seem based more on rumour and innuendo than anything else, don't they? Well, to be fair, what else could they be based on? It's not like there's any evidence supporting his position.