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Tags Amanda Knox , Meredith Kercher , murder cases , Raffaele Sollecito

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Old 17th December 2012, 08:40 AM   #4921
Chris_Halkides
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Bruce Budowle

Bruce Budowle, who IIRC used to head the FBI's division dealing with DNA and who now teaches forensic genetics, believes that low template number DNA profiling should be used for things like identification of human remains, but he does not trust it for forensics.
ETA
It is worth stressing that low template DNA work does not mean the same thing as low copy number (LCN) work, at least not to all people.
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Old 17th December 2012, 08:43 AM   #4922
anglolawyer
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Originally Posted by Grinder View Post
Anglo I believe you're mixing up scenarios. Since I don't believe the knife DNA work was done properly, how the knife got there to an otiose argument or discussion.

The scenario I thought we were discussing was real DNA on the knife maybe even positive for blood.

As for secondary or tertiary transfer, it could happen just about as easily at Raf's as at the cottage unless Meredith handled it, which the narrative of her leaving that afternoon would seem to allow for.

I thought Raf and Amanda had lunch at the cottage that Raf prepared.

But we can drop it and just have her or him putting it in a paper bag to bring it for the famous PGP prank theory.
We (or it might only be me) are trying to understand Hellman's critique of Massei's handling of the facts and assuming all the findings were correct (since there is no case at all if Hellman's findings are and his critique of Massei is independent of his findings). So, we are assuming the finding about the knife is true. However, the tests did not reveal blood, just a sample of something containing Meredith's DNA. Taking it from there, we are forced to get the knife to the cottage and back again unless we allow transfer across the intervening distance (in which case it ceases to be evidence of anything).

What I'm saying is any scenario which has them lugging the darn thing around town makes no sense, suggesting it did not happen. I am not worried about how they got it back - run it under the tap in the kitchen, dry it and stick back in Amanda's bag or up her jumper (er ... 'sweater') or something.

And they had pasta btw. You may make pasta with large kitchen knives in Seattle but in Italy they use a saucepan. Maybe they brought their own saucepan and that will eventually turn out to be the murder weapon when the case goes back to the Appeal court for the 8th time in around 2037.
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Old 17th December 2012, 09:11 AM   #4923
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Confirmation Bias

As ever I have a different point of view.

Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
inevitably the result of a multitude of inappropriate actions by a number of people, and solutions are usually rooted in the attitudes, practices and culture of the various participants who exercise authority in the criminal justice system.
For me the above screams Guede, he is described as an immigrant from the Ivory Coast (strange as he had lived longer in Italy than his home country) he was allegedly known to the police and as such it would have been the easiest course of action based on the quote above rather than as you and many others believe pick on two students one from Bari, Italy and the other from America.

Indeed, if 3 mugs shots of Sollecito, Knox and Guede were shown to a number of people and they were asked “which one of these people do you believe would sexually assault and murder a women” because of deep rooted, cultural attitudes Guede would be the obvious choice, racial tunnel vision?, confirmation bias?, in other countries religion is the separator, you accuse others of tunnel vision, confirmation bias but really are any us really immune?

Last edited by CoulsdonUK; 17th December 2012 at 09:13 AM.
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Old 17th December 2012, 09:17 AM   #4924
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Originally Posted by CoulsdonUK View Post
As ever I have a different point of view.



For me the above screams Guede, he is described as an immigrant from the Ivory Coast (strange as he had lived longer in Italy than his home country) he was allegedly known to the police and as such it would have been the easiest course of action based on the quote above rather than as you and many others believe pick on two students one from Bari, Italy and the other from America.

Indeed, if 3 mugs shots of Sollecito, Knox and Guede were shown to a number of people and they were asked “which one of these people do you believe would sexually assault and murder a women” because of deep rooted, cultural attitudes Guede would be the obvious choice, racial tunnel vision?, confirmation bias?, in other countries religion is the separator, you accuse others of tunnel vision, confirmation bias but really are any us really immune?
My view is that initially that description initially screamed Lumumba. You should read up on the specifics of whythis investigation went horribly wrong.

But you've already admitted that you're not here for that. Good for you.

However, since your only purpose here is to make sure the victim is remembered (her name is Meredith, by the way), what do these speculations have to do with anything?

For my money, you are more passionate about all this than you admit. You really do think that the two students are guilty. You'll talk all around it, but won't type the words. Good for you.

Last edited by Bill Williams; 17th December 2012 at 09:20 AM.
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Old 17th December 2012, 09:29 AM   #4925
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
But I simply don't think that a conscious framing job happened - I think the reality was a far more subtle process, mixing extreme incompetence with an improper desire to bolster a flawed prior theory.
Something like that. It's impossible to know what they were thinking, but the course they followed is similar to many other criminal investigations that resulted in a wrongful conviction.

People who dismiss Amanda and Raffaele's supporters as conspiracy theorists may think they are viewing the case with a savvy and skeptical eye. In fact, they are uninformed.

Someone on JREF posted this link, or a link that led me to this article:

http://www.texasmonthly.com/2012-11-01/feature2.php

It is an excellent, two-part article about the case of Michael Morton, who spent 25 years in prison for a crime he did not commit.

The woman who wrote it is also wrote about the Anthony Graves case, another travesty of justice that is featured in this episode of CBS 48 Hours:

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7402567n

Once someone looks at some of these cases, it becomes much easier to understand what happened in Perugia.
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Old 17th December 2012, 09:37 AM   #4926
CoulsdonUK
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
My view is that initially that description initially screamed Lumumba. You should read up on the specifics of whythis investigation went horribly wrong.

But you've already admitted that you're not here for that. Good for you.

However, since your only purpose here is to make sure the victim is remembered (her name is Meredith, by the way), what do these speculations have to do with anything?

For my money, you are more passionate about all this than you admit. You really do think that the two students are guilty. You'll talk all around it, but won't type the words. Good for you.
Oh dear I thought my post was rather thoughtful, any danger of you actually addressing it? If you believe I am passionate then I must be, if you believe that my opinion is that Raffaele and Amanda are guilty, then it must be so. Tell me, is that confirmation bias, or tunnel vision?
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Old 17th December 2012, 10:01 AM   #4927
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The key question is when

Originally Posted by CoulsdonUK View Post
For me the above screams Guede, he is described as an immigrant from the Ivory Coast (strange as he had lived longer in Italy than his home country) he was allegedly known to the police and as such it would have been the easiest course of action based on the quote above rather than as you and many others believe pick on two students one from Bari, Italy and the other from America.
Bari is in southern Italy, and from what I gather, there is some north/south prejudice in Italy. As for Guede, a great deal stands or falls with when the police obtained actual evidence of his involvement. If it were after the interrogations, then the problem of tunnel vision is still going to be severe IMO.
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Old 17th December 2012, 10:09 AM   #4928
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Originally Posted by halides1 View Post
Bari is in southern Italy, and from what I gather, there is some north/south prejudice in Italy. As for Guede, a great deal stands or falls with when the police obtained actual evidence of his involvement. If it were after the interrogations, then the problem of tunnel vision is still going to be severe IMO.
Yes I am aware of the north south rivalry but continuing with theme of deep rooted cultural attitudes, I would still argue that an immigrant would fit into such attitudes more than an indigenous Italian and American student.
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Old 17th December 2012, 10:24 AM   #4929
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Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes View Post
I had an opportunity to examine this data, and I know how to use a raw disk editor. I ultimately decided I was too uncomfortable with it. Any information I could glean might tell me a lot about Meredith, but nothing about the murder. It could be that someone at the police station felt the same way.

The only thing I can think of that would be relavent on Meredith's laptop would be if the were any timestamp information from that night, perhaps timing from when the laptop was unplugged and the existence of any photos from the 31'st onward.


I was unable to reproduce any log file entries resulting from unplugging a MacBook. Though I may not have the same configuration. Timing for when the laptop was unplugged may have been derivable from the battery state when the laptop was discovered. There may also have been a record if the laptop Was opened that night. As I recall, thee laptop was partially open when initially discovered the next day.

For Halloween night photos, I would expect Meredith to have produced a record of her costume and makup that night. I would be most interested in the lighting conditions for any such photo.
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A text message was found to have been sent at 8:35PM of November 1st by KNOX's number to that of her co-defendant Patrick, in which she wrote "Ci vediamo dopo" ["See you later" or lit: "We'll see each other after"] thus confirming that in the following hours KNOX would find herself with Patrick in the apartment where the victim was. -- Prosecutor Giuliano Mignini (Order for arrests)
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Old 17th December 2012, 10:30 AM   #4930
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Originally Posted by CoulsdonUK View Post
As ever I have a different point of view.

For me the above screams Guede, he is described as an immigrant from the Ivory Coast (strange as he had lived longer in Italy than his home country) he was allegedly known to the police and as such it would have been the easiest course of action based on the quote above rather than as you and many others believe pick on two students one from Bari, Italy and the other from America.

Indeed, if 3 mugs shots of Sollecito, Knox and Guede were shown to a number of people and they were asked “which one of these people do you believe would sexually assault and murder a women” because of deep rooted, cultural attitudes Guede would be the obvious choice, racial tunnel vision?, confirmation bias?, in other countries religion is the separator, you accuse others of tunnel vision, confirmation bias but really are any us really immune?
I agree with the above. This is another example of PR from the Seattle camp. They pushed the anti-American, anti-pretty girl and anti-quirky Seattle hippy angle from very early.

I do question Mignini in general on his approach to the crime. I do believe that some PR counter was needed for the british tabs. As I don't read Italian I can't speak to their tabs.

Many here didn't get a chance to hear the drone of the FOA camp from early on.

Here's an Anne Bremner TV segment that doesn't prove anything as it is late in the process but many may find it interesting. Note the capture of the FOA page early.

I'll look further to see if I can show you all early FOA talking points.
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Old 17th December 2012, 11:17 AM   #4931
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Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes View Post
Something like that. It's impossible to know what they were thinking, but the course they followed is similar to many other criminal investigations that resulted in a wrongful conviction.

People who dismiss Amanda and Raffaele's supporters as conspiracy theorists may think they are viewing the case with a savvy and skeptical eye. In fact, they are uninformed.

Someone on JREF posted this link, or a link that led me to this article:

http://www.texasmonthly.com/2012-11-01/feature2.php

It is an excellent, two-part article about the case of Michael Morton, who spent 25 years in prison for a crime he did not commit.

The woman who wrote it is also wrote about the Anthony Graves case, another travesty of justice that is featured in this episode of CBS 48 Hours:

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7402567n

Once someone looks at some of these cases, it becomes much easier to understand what happened in Perugia.
Not only another supposedly staged burglary but also the same release date as Amanda and Raffaele. And a screwed up TOD. And a conspiracy.
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Old 17th December 2012, 11:20 AM   #4932
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Originally Posted by CoulsdonUK View Post
Oh dear I thought my post was rather thoughtful, any danger of you actually addressing it? If you believe I am passionate then I must be, if you believe that my opinion is that Raffaele and Amanda are guilty, then it must be so. Tell me, is that confirmation bias, or tunnel vision?
I did address it. You do not seem to mind not knowing the timeline of this. And I was, in effect, agreeing with you. That's the weird part.

They needed something on Sollecito to get to Knox. They needed something on Knox to get to Lumumba, because they were (initially) going to get Lumumba for all the reasons you quote from the Vancouver study. When Guede was substituted for Lumumba, they then needed to implicate the two students fully in the murder to explain their earlier mistakes.

But you do it from the starting point of what this is really about in your theory - that Knox, Sollecito and Guede did this together. You have not explicitly said this, but you have implied it many times.

All in the guise of your stated purpose for being here. Remembering Meredith.

What have I missed? Or are you going to bob and weave some more, because you simply refuse to either confirm or deny something that is patently obvious? Yes, I am assuming that you entertain all this dialogue about the two students' guilt because I am assuming you are of the mind that absolving the two students is disrespectful to the Kerchers.

You have a right to believe this. That you are balking at admitting it, and throwing it back as if it's some big secret or invasion of your privacy - when you are posting about it on a public forum is very, very strange.

If you find this offensive.... I then marvel that me, a dumb poster, can invoke these sorts of responses! Wow.
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Old 17th December 2012, 11:26 AM   #4933
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Anybody believe she was interrogated 14 hours on Nov.5-6? Anne in a later clip says it's nine hours but in the linked interview it was 14.

Anne says so at the end after Paxton here
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Old 17th December 2012, 11:27 AM   #4934
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Originally Posted by CoulsdonUK View Post
As ever I have a different point of view.

For me the above screams Guede, he is described as an immigrant from the Ivory Coast (strange as he had lived longer in Italy than his home country) he was allegedly known to the police and as such it would have been the easiest course of action based on the quote above rather than as you and many others believe pick on two students one from Bari, Italy and the other from America.

Indeed, if 3 mugs shots of Sollecito, Knox and Guede were shown to a number of people and they were asked “which one of these people do you believe would sexually assault and murder a women” because of deep rooted, cultural attitudes Guede would be the obvious choice, racial tunnel vision?, confirmation bias?, in other countries religion is the separator, you accuse others of tunnel vision, confirmation bias but really are any us really immune?
This is ENTIRELY TRUE and if Rudy was identified as the killer by highly suspect means such as a lineup as you suggest with Raff and Amanda, there would be something to this point.

BUT the difference was that RUDY was identified as being involved AFTER the interrogations and more importantly after some of the physical evidence was actually processed. This is NOT CONFIRMATION BIAS but the result of the physical evidence....namely Rudy's fingerprint in Meredith's blood. TALK ABOUT THE PROVERBIAL SMOKING GUN!!!

My definition of the term "confirmation bias" is someone seeking rational to support a previous held or declared position. Such as the seeking, filtering and use of only evidence that supports one's position and ignoring or discarding evidence that refutes it.

The police had gone out on a "Public limb" BEFORE any physical evidence was actually processed DECLARING in a press conference that the CASE was CLOSED and that Amanda and Raffaele and Patrick Lumumba committed this crime as a result of a "sex game" gone wrong. It was the talk of the town, the country and even the world.

What is telling from a perspective of confirmation bias regarding Rudy is the fact that they continued down the line of their previous theory substituting Rudy for Patrick Lumumba. That is the only real confirmation bias involving Rudy.
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Old 17th December 2012, 11:49 AM   #4935
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Originally Posted by CoulsdonUK View Post
Oh dear I thought my post was rather thoughtful, any danger of you actually addressing it? If you believe I am passionate then I must be, if you believe that my opinion is that Raffaele and Amanda are guilty, then it must be so. Tell me, is that confirmation bias, or tunnel vision?
I'd say you were quite clear. No matter how many examples of cases in Texas or Liverpool or wherever, this case needs it's own logically conclusions. The police did seem to show prejudice against blacks - read Patrick's original description of his arrest and questioning - "dirty black, etc." - draw your own conclusion. It is possible some of the women ILE involved had a jealousy for Amanda as I've observed older than younger women often have.

I believe most of the problems are associated with incompetence and as even Raf admits with the kids' behavior. No their behavior didn't make them guilty but drew attention.

Btw, I thought Raf said he didn't pull the alibi until after Amanda had given her statement so the idea they needed Raf to get Amanda seems to be a specious argument.
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Old 17th December 2012, 11:57 AM   #4936
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
This is ENTIRELY TRUE and if Rudy was identified as the killer by highly suspect means such as a lineup as you suggest with Raff and Amanda, there would be something to this point.

BUT the difference was that RUDY was identified as being involved AFTER the interrogations and more importantly after some of the physical evidence was actually processed. This is NOT CONFIRMATION BIAS but the result of the physical evidence....namely Rudy's fingerprint in Meredith's blood. TALK ABOUT THE PROVERBIAL SMOKING GUN!!!

My definition of the term "confirmation bias" is someone seeking rational to support a previous held or declared position. Such as the seeking, filtering and use of only evidence that supports one's position and ignoring or discarding evidence that refutes it.

The police had gone out on a "Public limb" BEFORE any physical evidence was actually processed DECLARING in a press conference that the CASE was CLOSED and that Amanda and Raffaele and Patrick Lumumba committed this crime as a result of a "sex game" gone wrong. It was the talk of the town, the country and even the world.

What is telling from a perspective of confirmation bias regarding Rudy is the fact that they continued down the line of their previous theory substituting Rudy for Patrick Lumumba. That is the only real confirmation bias involving Rudy.
The above covers an interesting element that hasn't been discussed much at all. They didn't find his fingerprint IIRC but rather his palm print on the sheet. It would seem very difficult to ID him from that. His prints were on file as an immigrant and one might wonder how they store those prints.

They had his friend Skype him quite early in the process and it has been reported that the friend went to the police saying maybe Rudi was involved, which, given what we've observed of the ILE, would be a more likely method of discovery.
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Old 17th December 2012, 01:19 PM   #4937
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palm prints difficult to ID?

Originally Posted by Grinder View Post
The above covers an interesting element that hasn't been discussed much at all. They didn't find his fingerprint IIRC but rather his palm print on the sheet. It would seem very difficult to ID him from that. His prints were on file as an immigrant and one might wonder how they store those prints.

They had his friend Skype him quite early in the process and it has been reported that the friend went to the police saying maybe Rudi was involved, which, given what we've observed of the ILE, would be a more likely method of discovery.
His prints were in the database as a result of being an immigrant? I was under the impression that Rudy's prints were in the database as a result of his arrest in the nursery.

Now, I am not an expert in finger or palm prints and the level of difficulty in identification through palm prints vs fingerprints. If Rudy was not identified as a suspect via his print, then may I ask how he came the police's attention?

My impression is the Skype conversation came after Rudy being identified via his print. Feel free to point out how the police identified Rudy if not via his prints.
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Old 17th December 2012, 01:29 PM   #4938
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
His prints were in the database as a result of being an immigrant? I was under the impression that Rudy's prints were in the database as a result of his arrest in the nursery.

Now, I am not an expert in finger or palm prints and the level of difficulty in identification through palm prints vs fingerprints. If Rudy was not identified as a suspect via his print, then may I ask how he came the police's attention?

My impression is the Skype conversation came after Rudy being identified via his print. Feel free to point out how the police identified Rudy if not via his prints.
I don't feel like finding the cites and don't have files for all this.

I'm sure that it was reported that his prints were on file because he had to be registered as an alien as he was not a citizen of Italy. The PGP have made it clear that he was never convicted of a crime therefore he should be referred to as a burglar for example.

The print was on the sheet IIRC and not a clear finger print in blood.

The police and the general story has been that he was identified through some print but it has also been said that his friend came to the police with concerns. The police then set up the Skype. The papers began to talk of a 4th suspect before PL was released and most likely because some of the evidence didn't match any of the three - maybe some DNA or the palm print.
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Old 17th December 2012, 02:37 PM   #4939
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the case of the missing palm print

Actually, photos of the pillowcase (where the palm print is said to be), show nothing of the sort. This is one of the unresolved issues of this case, and thanks to RoseMontague for bringing this to our attention.
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Old 17th December 2012, 02:39 PM   #4940
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How was Rudy Identified as a suspect.

Originally Posted by Grinder View Post
I don't feel like finding the cites and don't have files for all this.

I'm sure that it was reported that his prints were on file because he had to be registered as an alien as he was not a citizen of Italy. The PGP have made it clear that he was never convicted of a crime therefore he should be referred to as a burglar for example.

The print was on the sheet IIRC and not a clear finger print in blood.

The police and the general story has been that he was identified through some print but it has also been said that his friend came to the police with concerns. The police then set up the Skype. The papers began to talk of a 4th suspect before PL was released and most likely because some of the evidence didn't match any of the three - maybe some DNA or the palm print.
I'm not saying that Rudy wasn't identified as a possible suspect via another methodology other than the print, he very well could have.

And I agree that the police were seeking a 4th suspect as the result of their physical evidence that was initially available to them. Certainly this bloody print that didn't match the three suspects in custody forced the police to seek out who it belongs to.

The question at hand is how the police identified whose print that was. I believe that you are saying that Rudy was not identified via computer records but a manual search of random prints on file, tediously looking at each print on a piece of paper? Yes, if in fact if that is how they identified him and does seem like a very difficult task.

Let's examine your scenario, that Rudy's friend became suspicious and given that the police were seeking the owner of that print, this seems reasonable. And then they matched his palm print with records that were available through immigration or police records. This DOES not seem too difficult.
Do you think this is TOO DIFFICULT?

I do agree with the PGP that Rudy had yet to be convicted. But Rudy was arrested and if police procedures in Italy is anything like it is in the United States, you are printed when you are arrested and the circumstances of your arrest are known. For example, Rudy would have been booked here in Seattle for B&E and possibly burglary for the Nursery arrest. It matters little that he had yet to be tried for his crime in Milan, he now was a known burglary suspect.

Is my thinking wrong on this?
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Old 17th December 2012, 02:39 PM   #4941
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Originally Posted by Grinder View Post
I'd say you were quite clear. No matter how many examples of cases in Texas or Liverpool or wherever, this case needs it's own logically conclusions. The police did seem to show prejudice against blacks - read Patrick's original description of his arrest and questioning - "dirty black, etc." - draw your own conclusion. It is possible some of the women ILE involved had a jealousy for Amanda as I've observed older than younger women often have.

I believe most of the problems are associated with incompetence and as even Raf admits with the kids' behavior. No their behavior didn't make them guilty but drew attention.

Btw, I thought Raf said he didn't pull the alibi until after Amanda had given her statement so the idea they needed Raf to get Amanda seems to be a specious argument.
This mini-thread began with CoulsdonUK (rightly) observing that part of the "grand conspiracy" which leads to wrongful convictions is the tunnel vision which can happen to investigators based on....

Quote:
inevitably the result of a multitude of inappropriate actions by a number of people, and solutions are usually rooted in the attitudes, practices and culture of the various participants who exercise authority in the criminal justice system.
For him/her he/she says it "screams Guede". For me it screams "Lumumba".

I also agree with Grinder that some of the female-investigators' attitudes to Knox was part of what threw them off into wrongful suspicion. I also agree with Raffaele that the behaviour between Nov 2nd and 5th perhaps drew attention to them, but what wasn't going to draw attention to them? The key is..... er, the key! Knox was a keyholder, and if the cops (putting aside their other blunders) thought that the break-in was faked then of course you'd watch ALL the keyholders.

You'd even watch Filomena, even if just to ask.... "Did you lose you key in the days before Nov 1?" All investigative lines should have been kept open - and yes, that includes Knox - because she could have reported that her key disappeared or something like that.

In a sense the cops would have been incompetent NOT to focus on Knox - but not for the behaviour.

Raffaele, though, is very clear in his book (pp. 53-54) that they were hounding him about what happened on Oct 31/Nov 1, and that he eventually confused the two dates, under extreme pressure, up to and including Napoleoni shouting at him, "You don't know what that cow, that whore, got up to!"

Rather than it being Raffaele "pulling the alibi" at all, the best he said he could do with all this pressure was to say, "If it was a Thursday, then she probably went to work."

That's it in a nutshell. At this time, acc. to Raffaele's book, Amanda is still doing homework (and yoga) out in the hall, and had perhaps just hung up after conversing with Filomena about living arrangements-to-come.

Me, I am leaning towards incompetence on the part of the cops, an incopetence they got locked into for all the reasons cited in the Vancouver report for how known wrongful convictions are constructed.

I am also taken with what the Vancouver report on wrongful convictions says about the handling of "alibi witnesses", which, in my mind, was what Raffaele was for Amanda. In talking about the handling of such witnesses it speaks of how essential it is to videotape or at the very least transcribe all interviews which are either giving (or presumably withdrawing) alibis from a second party:

Quote:
Because alibi defences are relatively rare, special treatment of their investigation would not unduly tax the resources of the police department. The Commissioner (who investigated the Milgaard wrongful conviction) made recommendations in connection with alibi witnesses and their investigation by police as follows:
5. The alibi witnesses should not be subjected to cross-examination or
suggestions by the police that they are mistaken. The alibi witnesses
should be treated with respect and courtesy. They should not be
threatened or intimidated or influenced to change their position.
However, I agree that it is appropriate for the police to instruct the
witnesses that it is essential that they tell the truth and that a statement
can be used as proof of its contents. The witnesses should be advised that
they should be careful to tell the truth and of the consequences of a
failure to do so.
7. It is essential that any further interviews of Crown witnesses following
the disclosure of the alibi evidence should as well be videotaped or, if
that is impossible, audiotaped. Every portion of the interview should be
transcribed. Any statement alleged to have been made by the witness and
which does not appear on the tape recording should be deemed to be
inadmissible.
This is exactly what did not happen with Raffaele, acc. to his account.

Further - the Milgaard Inquiry also talked about the dilemma for someone who knows they are innocent, in the decision to testify at trial or not.

I'll leave that for interested people to read.

But at base, it is stark how many of the points in the Vancouver study paper apply to Perugia, and how that wrongful conviction transpired.
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Old 17th December 2012, 02:46 PM   #4942
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MISSING PALM PRINT Mystery

Originally Posted by halides1 View Post
Actually, photos of the pillowcase (where the palm print is said to be), show nothing of the sort. This is one of the unresolved issues of this case, and thanks to RoseMontague for bringing this to our attention.
OK, Its official, how did Rudy come to be identified as a suspect is total bloody mystery.

1. Was it because Rudy's friend suspected him and he came forward?
or
2. The result of some kind of print on file and he was identified through computer records
or
3. Mignini and his associates consulted a psychic or used a OUIJA board?

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Old 17th December 2012, 02:59 PM   #4943
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best guess; comment on tunnel vision

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
OK, Its official, how did Rudy come to be identified as a suspect is total bloody mystery.
It is my working hypothesis that Rudi did leave a bloody palm print, but he left it on the wall, not on the pillowcase.

Most of us who are pro-innocence sooner or later have to ask, "Were they knaves, or were they fools?" I found an analogy to be helpful. Substances exist in three phases: solid, liquid, and gas, and one uses a phase diagram to display this information. Oe sees that different combinations of temperature and pressure cause a substance to be in one phase or another, and the lines represent places where two phases are in equilibrium. However, at temperatures and pressures beyond the critical point (a particular temperature and pressure), liquids and gases no longer exist in discrete phases, but become a fluid. In other words beyond the critical point, one cannot distinguish a liquid from a gas. I like to think of pressure as something coming from one's superiors and temperature as something coming from the media.
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Old 17th December 2012, 03:06 PM   #4944
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The question at hand is how the police identified whose print that was. I believe that you are saying that Rudy was not identified via computer records but a manual search of random prints on file, tediously looking at each print on a piece of paper? Yes, if in fact if that is how they identified him and does seem like a very difficult task.
I don't know if they had the aliens' print on a computer system or not. It wouldn't surprise me either way. What I was mainly saying is that to my knowledge I didn't think they had a clear fingerprint, but wiki does say it was a finger not a palm print - it's been a confusing point.

{quote]Let's examine your scenario, that Rudy's friend became suspicious and given that the police were seeking the owner of that print, this seems reasonable. And then they matched his palm print with records that were available through immigration or police records. This DOES not seem too difficult.
Do you think this is TOO DIFFICULT?[/quote]

No. But way easier if the friend came to them and they looked at the print records with Rudi in mind.

Quote:
I do agree with the PGP that Rudy had yet to be convicted. But Rudy was arrested and if police procedures in Italy is anything like it is in the United States, you are printed when you are arrested and the circumstances of your arrest are known. For example, Rudy would have been booked here in Seattle for B&E and possibly burglary for the Nursery arrest. It matters little that he had yet to be tried for his crime in Milan, he now was a known burglary suspect.

Is my thinking wrong on this?
No. As one that has incite into Seattle policies you are generally correct. However, the way it seemed to go in Milan it wasn't clear that he was actually arrested or just given a citation. I'm not arguing with you, I just don't know. The reports throughout this case have never referred to his arrest records or police prints. Remember, Mignini said they couldn't afford to tape Amanda
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Old 17th December 2012, 03:19 PM   #4945
Grinder
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
OK, Its official, how did Rudy come to be identified as a suspect is total bloody mystery.

1. Was it because Rudy's friend suspected him and he came forward?
or
2. The result of some kind of print on file and he was identified through computer records
or
3. Mignini and his associates consulted a psychic or used a OUIJA board?
The information on this wasn't direct - the police seem to say they found the print but as an alternating current it could have been the friend and then confirmed by the print. They wanted the full voltage of credit and finding through the print wouldn't promote as much resistance from the press as the Skype friend. After the short-circuit from the Patrick arrest they would have wanted to avoid further shocks by insulating themselves from any more crossed wires and verifying Rudi's presence through another direction. So they checked Rudi's alien status prints.

Later they had the DNA.
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Old 17th December 2012, 03:55 PM   #4946
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Originally Posted by Grinder View Post
Remember, Mignini said they couldn't afford to tape Amanda
Is there anyone out there who doesn't view this as perhaps the most blatant, egregious, wilful and transparent lie in this whole saga? This from the same interview (I know I'll be corrected if wrong!) where Mignini quotes the very law to the first set of cops to have at Knox... Ficarra et. al.
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Old 17th December 2012, 04:07 PM   #4947
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
Is there anyone out there who doesn't view this as perhaps the most blatant, egregious, wilful and transparent lie in this whole saga? This from the same interview (I know I'll be corrected if wrong!) where Mignini quotes the very law to the first set of cops to have at Knox... Ficarra et. al.
Hard to tell I mean it's the most ridiculous especially after they spent over 100,000 Euro on their video.

Now a pet peeve not worthy of this forum, but it's et al. not et. al. although I'm sure it will soon be common usage.
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Old 17th December 2012, 04:33 PM   #4948
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Originally Posted by Grinder View Post
Anybody believe she was interrogated 14 hours on Nov.5-6? Anne in a later clip says it's nine hours but in the linked interview it was 14.

Anne says so at the end after Paxton here
I believe it was more than 14 in total.
Where does she say this? Does she mean overall or just the night of arrest?
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Old 17th December 2012, 04:41 PM   #4949
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Originally Posted by Grinder View Post
Hard to tell I mean it's the most ridiculous especially after they spent over 100,000 Euro on their video.

Now a pet peeve not worthy of this forum, but it's et al. not et. al. although I'm sure it will soon be common usage.
Second one first - now there's a correction I will heartily accept.

First one second - I wanted to put this beside the other things regarded as lies, unfortunate exaggerations, misunderstandings, or foggy memory... like the 14 hours for interrogation, which when I started this was a 50 hour interrogation.

Whatever one thinks of the motivation for exaggerating, or perhaps outright lying about the length of the interrogation for Ms. Knox.....

Even the most vile interpretation of someone's motives for not getting it right, wilfully or otherwise......

Does not hold a candle to this whopper told by Mignini. If he'd been 7 years old in an age of corporal punishment, he'd have had his pants spanked for this one.

Is there ANYONE out there who doesn't regard this as an outright, baldfaced, wilful wash-your-mouth-out-with-soap dissimulation, a deceitful verbalized fraud, untruthful prevarication, fallacious fake of falsity.....

...... in other words, a deliberate distortion of truth, a.k.a. dishonest hogwash?
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Old 17th December 2012, 05:23 PM   #4950
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Originally Posted by Katody Matrass View Post
I believe it was more than 14 in total.
Where does she say this? Does she mean overall or just the night of arrest?
This one has Anne saying 9 hours overnight at about 2:10

2-16-11-JVM-ParentsofKnox.mp4

In this one Curt says at 7:10 14 hour all-night interrogation

Amanda Knox 2009-12-05 CNN Larry King Live - Part.2/4

Curt claims 40 hours over the 90 hours after the murder.
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Old 17th December 2012, 05:49 PM   #4951
Katody Matrass
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Originally Posted by Grinder View Post
This one has Anne saying 9 hours overnight at about 2:10

2-16-11-JVM-ParentsofKnox.mp4

In this one Curt says at 7:10 14 hour all-night interrogation

Amanda Knox 2009-12-05 CNN Larry King Live - Part.2/4

Curt claims 40 hours over the 90 hours after the murder.
Anne got it precise enough.

I think Curt is quite right, too. I remember it was summarized in the appeal brief at 40 or 50 hours. I think 14 hours reflects quite well the time she spent non stop at the police station on the night and day of her arrest.

Don't see any problem here, to be honest.

I have nothing but utmost respect and admiration for Amanda's family and friends (Madison is awesome). They did great in those horrible circumstances.
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Old 17th December 2012, 06:06 PM   #4952
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liar, liar, pants on fire

In the main I agree with Bill Williams and Katody Matrass. However, for me the pants-on-fire award should not be awarded for anything that was actually said. Instead it should go to the person who released the pink bathroom photo.
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Old 17th December 2012, 06:08 PM   #4953
Grinder
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Originally Posted by Katody Matrass View Post
Anne got it precise enough.

I think Curt is quite right, too. I remember it was summarized in the appeal brief at 40 or 50 hours. I think 14 hours reflects quite well the time she spent non stop at the police station on the night and day of her arrest.

Don't see any problem here, to be honest.

I have nothing but utmost respect and admiration for Amanda's family and friends (Madison is awesome). They did great in those horrible circumstances.
Your choice. She was clearly in police custody for many hours. The issue at hand is whether FOA exaggerated the number of consecutive hours of interrogation, which I think they did.

To me not admitting that FOA exaggerated and had talking points for the PIP is the same as the PGP not admitting that the ILE screwed up big time.

PGP can't admit that ILE should have recorded the interrogation using arcane arguments about being suspects versus witnesses. They can't see or at least admit that the DNA work was shoddy, specifically a piece of evidence lying around for 6 weeks and found in a heap.

She wasn't interrogated for 9 straight hours or 14 or 52. FOA put this out as a counter to the british tabs and in my opinion hurt Amanda's cause. They said she didn't know Rudi and no matter how people wish to spin what know means (it depends on what is, is) they were misstating the facts.

May I ask if you were watching US TV and if you were paying attention to local Seattle media? Clearly you need not reply but I'm curious what people experienced on this case.
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Old 17th December 2012, 06:17 PM   #4954
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Shocked

Originally Posted by halides1 View Post
In the main I agree with Bill Williams and Katody Matrass. However, for me the pants-on-fire award should not be awarded for anything that was actually said. Instead it should go to the person who released the pink bathroom photo.
No. I'm shocked, I tell you I'm shocked.

I do think the bathroom photo was terrible and also blame the british tabs for running it. The tabs never ending use of "Foxy Knoxy" in total ranks up there as well.

And how about Mignini using the tab bs story about the noise ticket in court?

For those that never saw it here it is.

Here's the text of the actual police report

If you haven't seen the above take the time.
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Old 17th December 2012, 06:20 PM   #4955
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disingenuous

Originally Posted by Grinder View Post
PGP can't admit that ILE should have recorded the interrogation using arcane arguments about being suspects versus witnesses. They can't see or at least admit that the DNA work was shoddy, specifically a piece of evidence lying around for 6 weeks and found in a heap.
Those arguments are worse than arcane; they are somewhere between being disingenuous and being bald-faced lies. Several commenters have now documented that the police thought of them as suspects and intended to make arrests at least on the day of 5 November. Therefore, they should have been given lawyers, and the proceeding should have been recorded.

I also was surprised at how quickly Raffaele's putative shoe prints became Rudi's shoe prints. As I said in a previous comment, that was very economical of the police. Nor does "shoddy" fully convey how bad the DNA work was, not that Italy is the only country with this problem. It was a lesson on how not to do one's forensics. MOO.
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Old 17th December 2012, 06:21 PM   #4956
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Originally Posted by halides1 View Post
In the main I agree with Bill Williams and Katody Matrass. However, for me the pants-on-fire award should not be awarded for anything that was actually said. Instead it should go to the person who released the pink bathroom photo.
I dunno. The kiss between Raffaele and Amanda outside the cottage on Nov 2nd is also up there somewhere.

When I first heard about it, taking a tour of the TJMK website 14 months ago (I'm a late developer!) I kept looking for the tonsil hockey. I went past that pic of the peck on the lips a couple of times before realizing that THIS was what the fuss was about.

Since then there are pics of that scene taken both just prior to and just after the kiss. When viewed as a collage it is clear that both are devastated. Yet a 1/800 second freeze frame defined a debate.....

At best that is dishonest. At worst it is a lie.

Looking back, I think it was all these sorts of fabrications to make a case for guilt, that actually drove me to have the views I now hold. "Is THAT what they have to prove guilt? Jesus, Mary and Joseph!!!!" Then again, the PGP will always have the private jet. At least that one was true.

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Old 17th December 2012, 06:29 PM   #4957
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Originally Posted by halides1 View Post
Those arguments are worse than arcane; they are somewhere between being disingenuous and being bald-faced lies. Several commenters have now documented that the police thought of them as suspects and intended to make arrests at least on the day of 5 November. Therefore, they should have been given lawyers, and the proceeding should have been recorded.

I also was surprised at how quickly Raffaele's putative shoe prints became Rudi's shoe prints. As I said in a previous comment, that was very economical of the police. Nor does "shoddy" fully convey how bad the DNA work was, not that Italy is the only country with this problem. It was a lesson on how not to do one's forensics. MOO.
Look, Anglo used otiose I'm only trying to keep up. But I think mysterious is apt for describing most of their points of view.
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Old 17th December 2012, 07:08 PM   #4958
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Originally Posted by Grinder View Post
Your choice. She was clearly in police custody for many hours. The issue at hand is whether FOA exaggerated the number of consecutive hours of interrogation, which I think they did.
I think you have no reliable data to know this.

Quote:
To me not admitting that FOA exaggerated and had talking points for the PIP is the same as the PGP not admitting that the ILE screwed up big time.
Obviously when you're dealing with the media you're expected to give them 'talking points'. They want a 10 second summary, not a long winded explanation.

Quote:
She wasn't interrogated for 9 straight hours or 14 or 52. FOA put this out as a counter to the british tabs and in my opinion hurt Amanda's cause.
1) You can't know how long was she interrogated because you have no data. No, I have no reason to trust what the cops say or what Follain writes about it.

2) Hurt? I don't think so. "Day and night", "obsessive length of the interrogations" - that's what the court said about it, basically confirming what the family had been saying.

Quote:
They said she didn't know Rudi and no matter how people wish to spin what know means (it depends on what is, is) they were misstating the facts.
Nonsense. It was 100% correct that she didn't know him. She didn't even know his name. Explaining that yes, she saw him once at a party etc. doesn't fit the media format and adds nothing to the understanding of the case when you have few seconds on TV to make your point. Again, the court vindicates them fully on this issue.


Originally Posted by Grinder View Post
May I ask if you were watching US TV and if you were paying attention to local Seattle media? Clearly you need not reply but I'm curious what people experienced on this case.
I've read and watched what was available on the internet.

I think the family was right to scream to all the world the facts that there was no relationship between Guede and the innocents and that the police's treatment of Amanda was highly irregular. You haven't given any convincing argument that they were misstating anything and on both counts the court vindicated them.
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Old 17th December 2012, 08:33 PM   #4959
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This is interesting:

http://mindhuntersinc.com/meredith-k...-of-injustice/

I sent John Douglas all of the crime scene photos and videos and other important forensic evidence a couple of years ago. I remember he said something like, "I am not making any promises as to what my conclusion will be. If I think Amanda and Raffaele are guilty, I will say so."

I assured him that I was not the least concerned. I know he is an expert at analyzing crimes and crime scenes.
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Old 17th December 2012, 10:19 PM   #4960
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Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes View Post
This is interesting:

http://mindhuntersinc.com/meredith-k...-of-injustice/

I sent John Douglas all of the crime scene photos and videos and other important forensic evidence a couple of years ago. I remember he said something like, "I am not making any promises as to what my conclusion will be. If I think Amanda and Raffaele are guilty, I will say so."

I assured him that I was not the least concerned. I know he is an expert at analyzing crimes and crime scenes.
Aught-owe. John Douglas and Mark Olshaker are about to have their page bombarded by Dr. Mull and The Machine/Harry Rag with a recounting of the prosecutor's case, which PROVES the guilt of two innocents.

Dr. Mull will write their professional organizations and someone will leaflet their places of business.

And the victimization of Meredith Kercher will continue, all by those who claim to be honouring her memory. And the Kercher's themselves will have a few more months of being devastated... when will this ever end?

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