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Old 21st December 2012, 02:05 PM   #481
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
And seems not to realise that there are many countries with healthcare systems that mean that there would be no point in doctors acting like the second one other than to make more work for themselves.

A lot of healthcare-related conspiracy theories (including the cancer ones) only seem to apply to the US healthcare model.
Indeed, as I understand it when I go to a doctor and he sends me for say, blood tests, he gets nothing from the fact that I have had blood tests. He is not a partner or shareholder in the lab company, he gets no commission from the lab, he gets no extra payment from the gov't for sending me to have a test. I make a second appointment to discuss the tests and he gets paid for the second visit sure. However, if I had been sent home to see if whatever drove me to see him in the first place would resolve on its own, and had continuing symptoms, then I would still be making a second appointment and then getting tested and then making a third appointment.

Canadian doctors do not hand out medications, they give prescriptions that get filled at a local pharmacy. They get no commission from the pharmacy nor from the drug company.

Doctors in my town at least have no problem filling their day with people wanting to see them and in fact because of the small size of the community every doctor who wants hospital privilages must also do shifts at the emergency room as there is no emergency resident.

Deliberately making more work for themselves would be both counter intuitive and counter productive. Only in the USA where doctors may get a commission from a lab or a drug company would this make any sense at all.

So if the evil doctor of Mendelsohn's writings exists, they would seem to have to be a mainly American phenomena.

That is not to say that there have been cases of fraudulent charges to OHIP. In one case a doctor stopped by a patient's house and inquired conversationally 'how are you doing.?" This was not an arranged house call nor were her health problems discussed. He billed OHIP for a house call. He was fined for this and several other such frauds and had his ability to bill OHIP revoked, essentially putting him out of business as a G.P. with private practice.

One wonders though, if the Ontario (the "O" in OHIP) gov't has a unit that looks for fraudulent charges and investigates doctors, who does that for American doctors in private practice and who are billing patients who self pay (no insurance=no insurance company fraud watchers)?

The more Robert Prey posts, it seems, the more and more I like my Ontario Health Insurance Plan. Obviously that is not the thread topic nor Robert's intention here, and I only mention it for the irony, not to start a discussion concerning universal health care.

Last edited by jaydeehess; 21st December 2012 at 02:15 PM.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 04:40 AM   #482
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post

The more Robert Prey posts, it seems, the more and more I like my Ontario Health Insurance Plan. Obviously that is not the thread topic nor Robert's intention here, and I only mention it for the irony, not to start a discussion concerning universal health care.
Oh, it's a wonderful healthcare system. Until you need to use it.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 04:47 AM   #483
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Physical Exam???Think Twice

The Dangers of Preventative Medicine
By Robert S. Mendelsohn, M.D.

"The Yale University Health Plan advises its subscribers to think twice before having an annual physical examination. The discovery of large tonsils, heart murmurs, unilateral undescended testes, lumps in the breast, and slight elevation of blood pressure causes uncounted iatrogenic (physician-induced) illnesses through unnecessary and dangerous medications and operations."

" A routine physical examination can cost in excess of $100.00, and opens the door for return visits that often include treatment and/or medication to "prevent" suspected disorders. The truth of the matter is that preventive medicine has become a threat to the health of all our people. This is the message all of us dedicated to consumer education must carry to the public."


http://www.rethinkingcancer.org/reso...e-medicine.php
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Old 22nd December 2012, 05:32 AM   #484
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
... Same old, same old
So some random blog posts part of the book you already cited from the author who has been dead 25 years, and you think it adds to the discussion?
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Old 22nd December 2012, 05:39 AM   #485
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The thing is that there are genuine issues in the way screening is used which are at risk of being obscured by the paranoid ramblings of conspiracy theorists. If you want a good book on this, try Margaret McCartney's The Patient Paradox.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 08:28 AM   #486
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
Oh, it's...
Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
The Dangers ...
Non-answers that fail to address anything said to you in the past two days. Just spinning the thread...

You've been asked to stay on topic. You refuse.
You've been asked to state your point. You refuse.

Please tell us why you think you're not a troll.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 11:23 AM   #487
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
Oh, it's a wonderful healthcare system. Until you need to use it.
wow, you really have not been paying attention to my posts in this thread or you would have noticed that I have needed it, been treated in a timely manner , with respect, and effectively.
otoh you have presented horror stories from three American doctors who variously describe disrespectful, ineffective, fraudelent, and even dangerous(bordering on evil) medical treatment which combined makes me thankful to be living here rather than there.

Odd thing is that JU describes his and his family's medical experience is closer to mine rather than what Newman, Welch, or Mendelsohn consider the norm in the USA
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Old 22nd December 2012, 11:34 AM   #488
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
The Dangers of Preventative Medicine
By Robert S. Mendelsohn, M.D.

"The Yale University Health Plan advises its subscribers to think twice before having an annual physical examination. The discovery of large tonsils, heart murmurs, unilateral undescended testes, lumps in the b(physician-induced) illnesses through unnecessary and dangerous medications and operations."<snip>


http://www.rethinkingcancer.org/reso...e-medicine.php
I had no idea things were so bad in the 1980s. Perhaps I was somewhat oblivious to such things in my late twenties and early thirties. That or once again Canada was ahead of the curve in such matters.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 01:07 PM   #489
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
Odd thing is that JU describes his and his family's medical experience is closer to mine rather than what Newman, Welch, or Mendelsohn consider the norm in the USA

The really odd thing is that Robert is complaining about alleged behaviour of doctors that could be prevented (or at least made pointless) by moving to a universal healthcare system along the lines of the UK NHS.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 01:24 PM   #490
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
The really odd thing is that Robert is complaining about alleged behaviour of doctors that could be prevented (or at least made pointless) by moving to a universal healthcare system along the lines of the UK NHS.
Or the Belgian system.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 01:42 PM   #491
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Or the Belgian system.
Canada
France, Germany, all of Scandinavia,.......
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Old 22nd December 2012, 01:46 PM   #492
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
Canada
France, Germany, all of Scandinavia,.......
This worldwide conspiracy by doctors hell bent on curing illness must be stopped.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 03:41 PM   #493
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so Mr Prey this universal cure for cancer where is it and how does it operate?
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Old 22nd December 2012, 04:44 PM   #494
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Originally Posted by Dcdrac View Post
so Mr Prey this universal cure for cancer where is it and how does it operate?
The universal cure for cancer is to think twice and avoid answering questions.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 05:12 PM   #495
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Originally Posted by BenjaminTR View Post
The universal cure for cancer is to think twice and avoid answering questions.
Yes Robert way of 'debate' is avoiding queries with a short nonsensical comment that dismisses or denies the question

Right Robert? <wink>
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Old 22nd December 2012, 05:36 PM   #496
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Originally Posted by Dcdrac View Post
so Mr Prey this universal cure for cancer where is it and how does it operate?
There is no universal cure for cancer, but the Nothing Pill holds as much promise as anything Modern Medicine has come up with.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 05:39 PM   #497
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
wow, you really have not been paying attention to my posts in this thread or you would have noticed that I have needed it, been treated in a timely manner , with respect, and effectively.
otoh you have presented horror stories from three American doctors who variously describe disrespectful, ineffective, fraudelent, and even dangerous(bordering on evil) medical treatment which combined makes me thankful to be living here rather than there.

Odd thing is that JU describes his and his family's medical experience is closer to mine rather than what Newman, Welch, or Mendelsohn consider the norm in the USA
Unfortunately, many possible witnesses with contrary experiences are no longer with us.
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Old 22nd December 2012, 06:29 PM   #498
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Rob, in your own words, what is cancer?
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Old 22nd December 2012, 10:25 PM   #499
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Originally Posted by TheRedWorm View Post
Rob, in your own words, what is cancer?
Let's see Robert, hmmmmm......I would guess he'd say........some sorta non-evolutionary supernatural illness caused by sin, satan and communists.......that can be cured by not seeing a doctor and eating comfort food rustled up by cooks who read the constitution each morning?
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Old 22nd December 2012, 11:26 PM   #500
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
Let's see Robert, hmmmmm......I would guess he'd say........some sorta non-evolutionary supernatural illness caused by sin, satan and communists.......that can be cured by not seeing a doctor and eating comfort food rustled up by cooks who read the constitution each morning?
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Old 23rd December 2012, 12:05 AM   #501
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
There is no universal cure for cancer, but the Nothing Pill holds as much promise as anything Modern Medicine has come up with.
For shame, RP.
Why be so flippant?
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Old 23rd December 2012, 02:04 AM   #502
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
There is no universal cure for cancer, but the Nothing Pill holds as much promise as anything Modern Medicine has come up with.

Demonstrably false, as the increasing survival rates show.
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Old 23rd December 2012, 02:48 AM   #503
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Chemotherapy appears to work, Radiotherapy appears to work more people are surviving cancer than ever before....modern medicine seems to be effective.....
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Old 23rd December 2012, 05:15 AM   #504
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Originally Posted by Dcdrac View Post
Chemotherapy appears to work, Radiotherapy appears to work more people are surviving cancer than ever before....modern medicine seems to be effective.....
How do you know that?
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Old 23rd December 2012, 05:24 AM   #505
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On a personal level members of my family are now currently alive and well because of Chemo and Radio therapy.

And on a studied scientific level:

http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/canc...common-cancers
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Old 23rd December 2012, 06:11 AM   #506
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
How do you know that?
How do you not know it?
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Old 23rd December 2012, 07:44 AM   #507
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
How do you not know it?

Oh, he does. He just ignores that for the purposes of this particular troll.
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Old 23rd December 2012, 08:23 AM   #508
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Originally Posted by TheRedWorm View Post
Oh, he does. He just ignores that for the purposes of this particular troll.
Everybody needs a hobby.
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Old 23rd December 2012, 08:26 AM   #509
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Everybody needs a hobby.

This is true. And as far as killing a few hours online, you can do a hell of a lot worse than here.
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As usual, he doesn't understand the relevant sciences, can't Google for the right thing, and appears to rely on the notion that a word salad liberally sprinkled with Google Croutons will make his argument seem coherent. -JayUtah
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Old 23rd December 2012, 08:54 AM   #510
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
How do you know that?
Because your source (Newman) said so.
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Old 23rd December 2012, 09:03 AM   #511
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Originally Posted by Dcdrac View Post
On a personal level members of my family are now currently alive and well because of Chemo and Radio therapy.

And on a studied scientific level:

http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/canc...common-cancers
One has to presume that the cured cancer really was a cancer and not a pseudo-cancer or harmless non-spreading cancer and that the cure really was due to the therapy, and not due to nature, nor due to the Placebo effect. All that presumed, the 5 year number is increased the earlier the diagnosis, but if death occurs one day after 5 years, it's still considered and counted as a "cured" cancer. Maybe so. Maybe valid. But all that is a whole lot of presummin' since the diagnosis of many suspected cancers is often a guessing game for the doctors, pathologists and radiologists. Dr. H. Gilbert Welch points out there are three types of cancer, the fast growing deadly kind, the slow growing or not growing at all kind, and in the middle, a whole bunch that could be either.
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Old 23rd December 2012, 09:09 AM   #512
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
One has to presume...
That's not what your source said.
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Old 23rd December 2012, 09:25 AM   #513
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So Robert in your world the evil doctors allow themselves and their famlies to suffer under their own conspiracy?

Care to explain or will you just ignore that or you come up with a short bit of nonsense - and by doing so concede that you are wrong?

LOL
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Old 23rd December 2012, 09:34 AM   #514
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
So Robert in your world the evil doctors allow themselves and their famlies to suffer under their own conspiracy?
The way I read it, in Robert's world there is no cure of any kind for cancer. In that sense he's arguing the opposite conspiracy theory of the one this thread is about. If there appears to be any cure from mainstream medicine, it is dismissed as an outcome that would have occurred naturally without intervention, or it wasn't a "real" cancer in the first place. Ergo all alleged cancer treatments/cures are bogus. (i.e., the No True Scotsman fallacy [ad hoc revision]) He says he also doubts cure claims from alternative medicine too. But the summary appears to be "Mainstream Medicine = Bad," no matter what the topic is.
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Old 23rd December 2012, 01:23 PM   #515
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
Unfortunately, many possible witnesses with contrary experiences are no longer with us.
Let's see, my mother is still with us, she needed the system about 15 years ago, my father is still with us, he needed the system last year, 4 co-workers who needed the system for various reasons last year are still with us, a former co-worker and friend of mine who has needed the system a couple of times in the last decade is still with us.
All of the above had serious ailments, were treated in a timely manner, with respect from various medical workers, in various locations within a few hours drive of this town, and have recovered well from those ailments.

A list of the problems the above persons were treated for:
Blown out knee cartilage
hip replacement
3 cancers (colon, skin, bladder)
gynecological problems
Blastomycosis(a life threatening fungal infection)

I can get into see my doctor in his office in about a week, sooner if its more urgent, and of course if its urgent there is the emergency dept at the hospital. Yes, if I have a less urgent reason at emergency then triage may well have me waiting hours. This occured last summer when I got a paint chip in my eye. Unfortunately a person with a broken leg and a couple of others who were in a car accident plus a few tourists with a case of picnic fever (food poisoning) and a few others who's ailments I do not recall, went ahead of me since they were more urgent.


So how much do you know about the Ontario Health Insurance Plan(OHIP)? Very little it seems.
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Old 23rd December 2012, 01:25 PM   #516
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
How do you know that?
Once again indicating that you have a short memory Robert? I am alive today because of cancer treatments I received in 2001.
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Old 23rd December 2012, 01:42 PM   #517
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
and in the middle, a whole bunch that could be either.
You've lost me with that hi falutin' medical jargon.
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Old 23rd December 2012, 11:56 PM   #518
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
One has to presume that the cured cancer really was a cancer and not a pseudo-cancer or harmless non-spreading cancer and that the cure really was due to the therapy, and not due to nature, nor due to the Placebo effect. All that presumed, the 5 year number is increased the earlier the diagnosis, but if death occurs one day after 5 years, it's still considered and counted as a "cured" cancer. Maybe so. Maybe valid. But all that is a whole lot of presummin' since the diagnosis of many suspected cancers is often a guessing game for the doctors, pathologists and radiologists. Dr. H. Gilbert Welch points out there are three types of cancer, the fast growing deadly kind, the slow growing or not growing at all kind, and in the middle, a whole bunch that could be either.
RP, are you saying there's no way of knowing what cured a given type of cancer?
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Old 24th December 2012, 03:56 AM   #519
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
The way I read it, in Robert's world there is no cure of any kind for cancer. In that sense he's arguing the opposite conspiracy theory of the one this thread is about. If there appears to be any cure from mainstream medicine, it is dismissed as an outcome that would have occurred naturally without intervention, or it wasn't a "real" cancer in the first place. Ergo all alleged cancer treatments/cures are bogus. (i.e., the No True Scotsman fallacy [ad hoc revision]) He says he also doubts cure claims from alternative medicine too. But the summary appears to be "Mainstream Medicine = Bad," no matter what the topic is.
A gross misrepresentation. Typical Jay Utah hyperbole.
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Old 24th December 2012, 04:31 AM   #520
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Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
Let's see, my mother is still with us, she needed the system about 15 years ago, my father is still with us, he needed the system last year, 4 co-workers who needed the system for various reasons last year are still with us, a former co-worker and friend of mine who has needed the system a couple of times in the last decade is still with us.
Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.
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