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Old 30th December 2012, 05:24 PM   #41
Axxman300
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Hitler was an a-hole.

His religious views varied depending on whom he was speaking to.

Hitler was a vegetarian, artist, decorated war veteran who loved children and dogs. These facts alone would make him electable today in a number of countries even toady.

None of them are relevant.

Himmler, the head of the S.S., had a plan to replace all religion with a state created religion based on his warped vision of a Teutonic faith with the S.S. serving as high priests. He never got there due to the whole Germany losing the war-thing.

The National Socialist German Workers Party (Nazi) was elected into power by a population reeling from the depression, and their treatment as a nation after WWI. Germany had been at war with somebody for 300 years, and they were just a very angry people.




The basic truth of 1930s Germany is that it could have been an athiest paradise, and Hitler still would have been elected by their people.

The Third Reich is the most written-about, well documented subject in the library. I suggest you read more, and post less. You are not serving your atheist crusade well.
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Old 30th December 2012, 05:31 PM   #42
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The argument is usually this:

Hitler did bad things, so he couldn't be a Christian.
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Old 30th December 2012, 05:45 PM   #43
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I'm pretty he mention god a lot in that book he write.
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Old 30th December 2012, 06:18 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
The argument is usually this:

Hitler did bad things, so he couldn't be a Christian.
The question isn't about Hitlers religious ideology. The question is how could a 90% Christan population allow the monsters, that were the upper echelon of the Nazi party, to come to power?
The argument that many Christians today make, is that removing God from our schools, government, etc is the cause of all the evil in the world, falls flat when you look at Germany in the 1930's. Even allowing for bad economic times these right-thinking Christians should have seen The Nazis for what they were.

Just spouting religious ideology doesn't give any special moral insight.
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Old 30th December 2012, 06:43 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
His religious views varied depending on whom he was speaking to.
Sounds like any other religious person.
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Old 30th December 2012, 06:45 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by MontagK505 View Post
The question isn't about Hitlers religious ideology. The question is how could a 90% Christan population allow the monsters, that were the upper echelon of the Nazi party, to come to power?
The argument that many Christians today make, is that removing God from our schools, government, etc is the cause of all the evil in the world, falls flat when you look at Germany in the 1930's. Even allowing for bad economic times these right-thinking Christians should have seen The Nazis for what they were.

Just spouting religious ideology doesn't give any special moral insight.
The answer to the question is that having religion doesn't give the person the moral high ground. People will be people regardless of their religious leaning. The problem is religion gives people permission to be idiots.
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Old 30th December 2012, 06:47 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by MontagK505 View Post
"Gott mit uns"
True, but didn't that belt-buckle pre-date the Nazis?
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Old 30th December 2012, 07:05 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by fishbob View Post
... the heads of the southern baptists and the scientologits, and all the televangelists.
Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
These facts alone would make him electable today in a number of countries even toady
I can't decide which typo I like better.
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Old 30th December 2012, 07:15 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
True, but didn't that belt-buckle pre-date the Nazis?
Used in WWI.
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Old 30th December 2012, 07:50 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
True, but didn't that belt-buckle pre-date the Nazis?
The WW2 version had a Swastika and Eagle with the motto on a wreath .
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Old 30th December 2012, 09:05 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by thrombus29 View Post
That site must be pretty weak if Randi.org can slashdot it.
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Old 31st December 2012, 03:30 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I remember not long ago quoting from a Richard Evans book on the Third Reich supposedly giving Hitler's views on Christianity. They were very negative. However, someone else on this forum, maybe ddt, said that the quotes were fabrications that had been inserted into "Hitler's Table Talk" that was edited, I think, by Hugh Very-Ropey.
link to previous discussion. The link I gave there was a paper by Carrier.
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Old 31st December 2012, 05:15 AM   #53
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the problem is that when it comes to what one believes, that we have to take his word for it. as he claimed to believe in some kind of creator/god and also seemed to claim to believe in Jesus, we must accept that he was not an Atheist.

but whats the point of debatng it? want to make a group feel bad about Hitler being part of that group?
well i got news for ya.
Hitler was a Human.


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Old 31st December 2012, 06:00 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by DC View Post
the problem is that when it comes to what one believes, that we have to take his word for it. as he claimed to believe in some kind of creator/god and also seemed to claim to believe in Jesus, we must accept that he was not an Atheist.
All beliefs are evidenced solely by personal statement. If we're to believe that Hitler wasn't an believer based on the fact that the only evidence is his own statement then we'd have to apply that to all believers.

Which may just be the case, when you think about it.
Quote:
but whats the point of debatng it? want to make a group feel bad about Hitler being part of that group?
well i got news for ya.
Hitler was a Human.


How's this. I hereby give you permission to give yourself permission to not discuss the issue.
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Old 31st December 2012, 07:04 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Ts4EVER View Post
What a rood picture! ;-)
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Old 31st December 2012, 07:17 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
What a rood picture! ;-)
I like how the cross is floating over his head.

"That's a sign that God is with him, I just know it!"
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Old 31st December 2012, 08:00 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
I like how the cross is floating over his head.

"That's a sign that God is with him, I just know it!"
I think that that's the clincher...

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Old 31st December 2012, 08:24 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by DevilMayhem666 View Post
I'm pretty he mention god a lot in that book he write.
And in speeches and personal conversation, but to what extent did he actually believe and in what.
Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
Sounds like any other religious person.
Or politician.
Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
The answer to the question is that having religion doesn't give the person the moral high ground. People will be people regardless of their religious leaning. The problem is religion gives people permission to be idiots.
Hence the claims by the god botherers that Hitler must have been a godless atheist.

Originally Posted by DC View Post
the problem is that when it comes to what one believes, that we have to take his word for it. as he claimed to believe in some kind of creator/god and also seemed to claim to believe in Jesus, we must accept that he was not an Atheist.
That Hitler believes in something I think is certain, exactly what xianity-derived nonsense is more difficult to say. What interests me is how much xianity influenced his beliefs.
Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
What a rood picture! ;-)
Burn the punster.
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Old 31st December 2012, 10:11 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by catsmate1 View Post
Hence the claims by the god botherers that Hitler must have been a godless atheist.
You lost me there.
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Old 31st December 2012, 10:56 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
All beliefs are evidenced solely by personal statement. If we're to believe that Hitler wasn't an believer based on the fact that the only evidence is his own statement then we'd have to apply that to all believers.

Which may just be the case, when you think about it.

How's this. I hereby give you permission to give yourself permission to not discuss the issue.
that's what we do, we take someone's word for it when they say, i believe in this god.
how would anyone be in a position to know if its actually true or not?
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Old 31st December 2012, 11:01 AM   #61
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So what if he was an atheist? What difference would that make?
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Old 31st December 2012, 11:27 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
So what if he was an atheist? What difference would that make?
It "proves" that atheists are evil and immoral. Only Christians can be moral.[/fundie]
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Old 31st December 2012, 11:35 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I think you'll find he was no true believer, and hence an athiest.
Yes indeed he was a true scottman.

For the thread : I think it is assumed that at least partially he believed some of the idea in private, though whatever was said in public to mass can pretty much often be seen in the view of manipulating the mass.
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Old 31st December 2012, 01:46 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
You lost me there.
Sorry, Firefox has developed the habit of crashing on me and most of my answer disappeared into the ether.

The point I wanted to make was that while there's no link between religious belief and moral behaviour the god botherers think there is, for whatever reasons. Hence when they see someone whose actions were clearly immoral they have difficulty accepting that that person could also have been a believer, like them. It undercuts what they believe is the foundation for their morality.
Thus to the believer Hitler can't also have been a believer and must have been an atheist.

This is part of the problem I have with religion; it causes people to abnegate their responsibility to think for themselves and act responsibly, in favour of an external source of morality that doesn't stand stand up to scrutiny and can easily be modified to suit existing prejudices.
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Old 31st December 2012, 02:15 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by DC View Post
that's what we do, we take someone's word for it when they say, i believe in this god.
how would anyone be in a position to know if its actually true or not?
Proof of any god or gods would be a start. Without that I don't believe anyone's god is real, nor do I believe they actually believe in this being or beings. No need to grant "True Believer" status to someone who can't provide evidence.
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Old 31st December 2012, 02:16 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by catsmate1 View Post
Sorry, Firefox has developed the habit of crashing on me and most of my answer disappeared into the ether.

The point I wanted to make was that while there's no link between religious belief and moral behaviour the god botherers think there is, for whatever reasons. Hence when they see someone whose actions were clearly immoral they have difficulty accepting that that person could also have been a believer, like them. It undercuts what they believe is the foundation for their morality.
Thus to the believer Hitler can't also have been a believer and must have been an atheist.

This is part of the problem I have with religion; it causes people to abnegate their responsibility to think for themselves and act responsibly, in favour of an external source of morality that doesn't stand stand up to scrutiny and can easily be modified to suit existing prejudices.
If they think there's a link, why don't they act like it?
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Old 31st December 2012, 02:17 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
So what if he was an atheist? What difference would that make?
To me, none. But he's a post child for "Evil Atheist" in the fundy camp. That's why I'm here.
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Old 31st December 2012, 02:51 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Himmler, the head of the S.S., had a plan to replace all religion with a state created religion based on his warped vision of a Teutonic faith with the S.S. serving as high priests. He never got there due to the whole Germany losing the war-thing.
Yep, and Mein Kampf was supposed to be the new Bible.

It was a rambling hate-screed, but it at least had the advantage of having a single author.
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Old 31st December 2012, 02:54 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
So what if he was an atheist? What difference would that make?
Well, it's a good thing he didn't win, since the victors get to define the nature of reality.
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Old 31st December 2012, 04:16 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
Proof of any god or gods would be a start. Without that I don't believe anyone's god is real, nor do I believe they actually believe in this being or beings. No need to grant "True Believer" status to someone who can't provide evidence.
well it does not matter one bit if the god he beliefs in is real or not. the question is, does he belief in him or not.
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Old 31st December 2012, 05:08 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by DC View Post
well it does not matter one bit if the god he beliefs in is real or not. the question is, does he belief in him or not.
Sorry, but New Years Eve is getting between comprehension and response. I'll be back tomorrow.
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Old 31st December 2012, 09:23 PM   #72
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The whole idea that either Christians or atheists are getting upset about what Hitler might have believed seems utterly ridiculous to me. What next? Yeah, he believed some things and didn't believe some others. He ate some things and didn't eat others, and he probably preferred some brands of shoes and underwear. You don't have to look up what those were and then avoid them out of fear you might be too Hitlerish. Vlad the Impaler was a Christian and Stalin was an atheist, but it's been months and months since either Janadele or I slaughtered a peasant.

It reminds me a bit of people getting bent out of shape when some anthropologist suggests our distant cave ancestors may have been cannibals. Oh horrors. What an insult to my character.
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Old 1st January 2013, 04:18 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
The whole idea that either Christians or atheists are getting upset about what Hitler might have believed seems utterly ridiculous to me. What next? Yeah, he believed some things and didn't believe some others. He ate some things and didn't eat others, and he probably preferred some brands of shoes and underwear. You don't have to look up what those were and then avoid them out of fear you might be too Hitlerish. Vlad the Impaler was a Christian and Stalin was an atheist, but it's been months and months since either Janadele or I slaughtered a peasant.

It reminds me a bit of people getting bent out of shape when some anthropologist suggests our distant cave ancestors may have been cannibals. Oh horrors. What an insult to my character.
If it's not an issue to you, what did you even bother posting?
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Old 1st January 2013, 04:19 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by aggle-rithm View Post
Yep, and Mein Kampf was supposed to be the new Bible.

It was a rambling hate-screed, but it at least had the advantage of having a single author.
Alfred Rosenberg also was a very vocal opponent of christianity. In his book "The myth of the 20th century" he claims that the "indo-aryan interpretation" of Christianity was more valid than the "Judaistic" one and that there should be a new wave of "positive Christianity" to lead into a new blood based religious order. As you can imagine, a lot of bollocks. It was never adopted as official party line out of fear of offending Christians.
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Old 1st January 2013, 07:59 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
If it's not an issue to you, what did you even bother posting?
Yeah, in a thread about how Christians are trying to disavow Hitler, why on earth would anyone think an opinion on the stupidity of the effort is germane?
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Old 2nd January 2013, 03:59 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by catsmate1 View Post
Firstly:

Many of Hitlers views, such as his anti-semitism, undoubtedly derive from xian tradition; one could say that xianity helped to create and mould Hitler.
I doubt Hitlerís anti-Semitism had anything to do with Christianity. You donít see him celebrating the life or doctrines of Martin Luther for example.
Hitler saw the Jews as an alien race (from his experience in Vienna) and the founders of Bolshevik Russia (Hitler being influenced by Alfred Rosenberg and Dietrich Eckart).
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Old 2nd January 2013, 04:05 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
I gave the high and the low I've seen in studies. The truth is we won't ever know for sure. It's also true that the European invasion was a disaster for nearly every native group in the Americas.
How many Indians in the New World in 1492?
You Holocausters are really amazing.
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Old 2nd January 2013, 04:10 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
The answer to the question is that having religion doesn't give the person the moral high ground. People will be people regardless of their religious leaning. The problem is religion gives people permission to be idiots.
How does the Jewish Bolsheviks fit into you theory? The founders of the Soviet state were largely atheist Jews.
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Old 2nd January 2013, 04:26 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by MaGZ View Post
I doubt Hitlerís anti-Semitism had anything to do with Christianity. You donít see him celebrating the life or doctrines of Martin Luther for example.
Hitler saw the Jews as an alien race (from his experience in Vienna) and the founders of Bolshevik Russia (Hitler being influenced by Alfred Rosenberg and Dietrich Eckart).
At the risk of actually validating some of your anti-semetic crap one doesn't have to embrace the tenets of a religion to be influenced by a religious upbringing.

Originally Posted by MaGZ View Post
How does the Jewish Bolsheviks fit into you theory? The founders of the Soviet state were largely atheist Jews.
Well there goes any pretense of rational discussion; you've had it explained to you previously that this crap simply isn't true.
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Old 2nd January 2013, 04:29 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by MaGZ View Post
How many Indians in the New World in 1492?
You Holocausters are really amazing.
So, you tell me how far off those studies are, please?
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