Hitler was an atheist. - Page 2

Axxman300 · 30th December 2012, 04:24 PM

Hitler was an a-hole.

His religious views varied depending on whom he was speaking to.

Hitler was a vegetarian, artist, decorated war veteran who loved children and dogs. These facts alone would make him electable today in a number of countries even toady.

None of them are relevant.

Himmler, the head of the S.S., had a plan to replace all religion with a state created religion based on his warped vision of a Teutonic faith with the S.S. serving as high priests. He never got there due to the whole Germany losing the war-thing.

The National Socialist German Workers Party (Nazi) was elected into power by a population reeling from the depression, and their treatment as a nation after WWI. Germany had been at war with somebody for 300 years, and they were just a very angry people.

The basic truth of 1930s Germany is that it could have been an athiest paradise, and Hitler still would have been elected by their people.

The Third Reich is the most written-about, well documented subject in the library. I suggest you read more, and post less. You are not serving your atheist crusade well.

thaiboxerken · 30th December 2012, 04:31 PM

The argument is usually this:

Hitler did bad things, so he couldn't be a Christian.

DevilMayhem666 · 30th December 2012, 04:45 PM

I'm pretty he mention god a lot in that book he write.

MontagK505 · 30th December 2012, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

The argument is usually this:

Hitler did bad things, so he couldn't be a Christian.

The question isn't about Hitlers religious ideology. The question is how could a 90% Christan population allow the monsters, that were the upper echelon of the Nazi party, to come to power?
The argument that many Christians today make, is that removing God from our schools, government, etc is the cause of all the evil in the world, falls flat when you look at Germany in the 1930's. Even allowing for bad economic times these right-thinking Christians should have seen The Nazis for what they were.

Just spouting religious ideology doesn't give any special moral insight.

Gawdzilla · 30th December 2012, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by Axxman300

His religious views varied depending on whom he was speaking to.

Sounds like any other religious person.

Gawdzilla · 30th December 2012, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by MontagK505

The question isn't about Hitlers religious ideology. The question is how could a 90% Christan population allow the monsters, that were the upper echelon of the Nazi party, to come to power?
The argument that many Christians today make, is that removing God from our schools, government, etc is the cause of all the evil in the world, falls flat when you look at Germany in the 1930's. Even allowing for bad economic times these right-thinking Christians should have seen The Nazis for what they were.

Just spouting religious ideology doesn't give any special moral insight.

The answer to the question is that having religion doesn't give the person the moral high ground. People will be people regardless of their religious leaning. The problem is religion gives people permission to be idiots.

angrysoba · 30th December 2012, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by MontagK505

"Gott mit uns"

True, but didn't that belt-buckle pre-date the Nazis?

SezMe · 30th December 2012, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by fishbob

... the heads of the southern baptists and the scientologits, and all the televangelists.

Originally Posted by Axxman300

These facts alone would make him electable today in a number of countries even toady

I can't decide which typo I like better.

Gawdzilla · 30th December 2012, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

True, but didn't that belt-buckle pre-date the Nazis?

Used in WWI.

MontagK505 · 30th December 2012, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

True, but didn't that belt-buckle pre-date the Nazis?

The WW2 version had a Swastika and Eagle with the motto on a wreath .

Beerina · 30th December 2012, 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by thrombus29

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1250307.The_Spear

Herbert isn't too hacky.

That site must be pretty weak if Randi.org can slashdot it.

ddt · 31st December 2012, 02:30 AM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

I remember not long ago quoting from a Richard Evans book on the Third Reich supposedly giving Hitler's views on Christianity. They were very negative. However, someone else on this forum, maybe ddt, said that the quotes were fabrications that had been inserted into "Hitler's Table Talk" that was edited, I think, by Hugh Very-Ropey.

link to previous discussion.

The link I gave there was a paper by Carrier.

DC · 31st December 2012, 04:15 AM

the problem is that when it comes to what one believes, that we have to take his word for it. as he claimed to believe in some kind of creator/god and also seemed to claim to believe in Jesus, we must accept that he was not an Atheist.

but whats the point of debatng it? want to make a group feel bad about Hitler being part of that group?
well i got news for ya.
Hitler was a Human.

Gawdzilla · 31st December 2012, 05:00 AM

Originally Posted by DC

the problem is that when it comes to what one believes, that we have to take his word for it. as he claimed to believe in some kind of creator/god and also seemed to claim to believe in Jesus, we must accept that he was not an Atheist.

All beliefs are evidenced solely by personal statement. If we're to believe that Hitler wasn't an believer based on the fact that the only evidence is his own statement then we'd have to apply that to all believers.

Which may just be the case, when you think about it.

Quote:

but whats the point of debatng it? want to make a group feel bad about Hitler being part of that group?
well i got news for ya.
Hitler was a Human.

How's this. I hereby give you permission to give yourself permission to not discuss the issue.

BenBurch · 31st December 2012, 06:04 AM

Originally Posted by Ts4EVER

http://feuerbringer.files.wordpress.....jpg%3Fw%3D645

What a rood picture! ;-)

Gawdzilla · 31st December 2012, 06:17 AM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

What a rood picture! ;-)

I like how the cross is floating over his head.

"That's a sign that God is with him, I just know it!"

Rincewind · 31st December 2012, 07:00 AM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

I like how the cross is floating over his head.

"That's a sign that God is with him, I just know it!"

I think that that's the clincher...

catsmate1 · 31st December 2012, 07:24 AM

Originally Posted by DevilMayhem666

I'm pretty he mention god a lot in that book he write.

And in speeches and personal conversation, but to what extent did he actually believe and in what.

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

Sounds like any other religious person.

Or politician.

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

The answer to the question is that having religion doesn't give the person the moral high ground. People will be people regardless of their religious leaning. The problem is religion gives people permission to be idiots.

Hence the claims by the god botherers that Hitler must have been a godless atheist.

Originally Posted by DC

the problem is that when it comes to what one believes, that we have to take his word for it. as he claimed to believe in some kind of creator/god and also seemed to claim to believe in Jesus, we must accept that he was not an Atheist.

That Hitler believes in something I think is certain, exactly what xianity-derived nonsense is more difficult to say. What interests me is how much xianity influenced his beliefs.

Originally Posted by BenBurch

What a rood picture! ;-)

Burn the punster.

Gawdzilla · 31st December 2012, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by catsmate1

Hence the claims by the god botherers that Hitler must have been a godless atheist.

You lost me there.

DC · 31st December 2012, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

All beliefs are evidenced solely by personal statement. If we're to believe that Hitler wasn't an believer based on the fact that the only evidence is his own statement then we'd have to apply that to all believers.

Which may just be the case, when you think about it.

How's this. I hereby give you permission to give yourself permission to not discuss the issue.

that's what we do, we take someone's word for it when they say, i believe in this god.
how would anyone be in a position to know if its actually true or not?

Ron_Tomkins · 31st December 2012, 10:01 AM

So what if he was an atheist? What difference would that make?

thaiboxerken · 31st December 2012, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins

So what if he was an atheist? What difference would that make?

It "proves" that atheists are evil and immoral. Only Christians can be moral.[/fundie]

Aepervius · 31st December 2012, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by shuttlt

I think you'll find he was no true believer, and hence an athiest.

Yes indeed he was a true scottman.

For the thread : I think it is assumed that at least partially he believed some of the idea in private, though whatever was said in public to mass can pretty much often be seen in the view of manipulating the mass.

catsmate1 · 31st December 2012, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

You lost me there.

Sorry, Firefox has developed the habit of crashing on me and most of my answer disappeared into the ether.

The point I wanted to make was that while there's no link between religious belief and moral behaviour the god botherers think there is, for whatever reasons. Hence when they see someone whose actions were clearly immoral they have difficulty accepting that that person could also have been a believer, like them. It undercuts what they believe is the foundation for their morality.
Thus to the believer Hitler can't also have been a believer and must have been an atheist.

This is part of the problem I have with religion; it causes people to abnegate their responsibility to think for themselves and act responsibly, in favour of an external source of morality that doesn't stand stand up to scrutiny and can easily be modified to suit existing prejudices.

Gawdzilla · 31st December 2012, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by DC

that's what we do, we take someone's word for it when they say, i believe in this god.
how would anyone be in a position to know if its actually true or not?

Proof of any god or gods would be a start. Without that I don't believe anyone's god is real, nor do I believe they actually believe in this being or beings. No need to grant "True Believer" status to someone who can't provide evidence.

Gawdzilla · 31st December 2012, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by catsmate1

Sorry, Firefox has developed the habit of crashing on me and most of my answer disappeared into the ether.

The point I wanted to make was that while there's no link between religious belief and moral behaviour the god botherers think there is, for whatever reasons. Hence when they see someone whose actions were clearly immoral they have difficulty accepting that that person could also have been a believer, like them. It undercuts what they believe is the foundation for their morality.
Thus to the believer Hitler can't also have been a believer and must have been an atheist.

This is part of the problem I have with religion; it causes people to abnegate their responsibility to think for themselves and act responsibly, in favour of an external source of morality that doesn't stand stand up to scrutiny and can easily be modified to suit existing prejudices.

If they think there's a link, why don't they act like it?

Gawdzilla · 31st December 2012, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins

So what if he was an atheist? What difference would that make?

To me, none. But he's a post child for "Evil Atheist" in the fundy camp. That's why I'm here.

aggle-rithm · 31st December 2012, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by Axxman300

Himmler, the head of the S.S., had a plan to replace all religion with a state created religion based on his warped vision of a Teutonic faith with the S.S. serving as high priests. He never got there due to the whole Germany losing the war-thing.

Yep, and Mein Kampf was supposed to be the new Bible.

It was a rambling hate-screed, but it at least had the advantage of having a single author.

aggle-rithm · 31st December 2012, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins

So what if he was an atheist? What difference would that make?

Well, it's a good thing he didn't win, since the victors get to define the nature of reality.

DC · 31st December 2012, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

Proof of any god or gods would be a start. Without that I don't believe anyone's god is real, nor do I believe they actually believe in this being or beings. No need to grant "True Believer" status to someone who can't provide evidence.

well it does not matter one bit if the god he beliefs in is real or not. the question is, does he belief in him or not.

Gawdzilla · 31st December 2012, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by DC

well it does not matter one bit if the god he beliefs in is real or not. the question is, does he belief in him or not.

Sorry, but New Years Eve is getting between comprehension and response. I'll be back tomorrow.

bruto · 31st December 2012, 08:23 PM

The whole idea that either Christians or atheists are getting upset about what Hitler might have believed seems utterly ridiculous to me. What next? Yeah, he believed some things and didn't believe some others. He ate some things and didn't eat others, and he probably preferred some brands of shoes and underwear. You don't have to look up what those were and then avoid them out of fear you might be too Hitlerish. Vlad the Impaler was a Christian and Stalin was an atheist, but it's been months and months since either Janadele or I slaughtered a peasant.

It reminds me a bit of people getting bent out of shape when some anthropologist suggests our distant cave ancestors may have been cannibals. Oh horrors. What an insult to my character.

Gawdzilla · 1st January 2013, 03:18 AM

Originally Posted by bruto

The whole idea that either Christians or atheists are getting upset about what Hitler might have believed seems utterly ridiculous to me. What next? Yeah, he believed some things and didn't believe some others. He ate some things and didn't eat others, and he probably preferred some brands of shoes and underwear. You don't have to look up what those were and then avoid them out of fear you might be too Hitlerish. Vlad the Impaler was a Christian and Stalin was an atheist, but it's been months and months since either Janadele or I slaughtered a peasant.

It reminds me a bit of people getting bent out of shape when some anthropologist suggests our distant cave ancestors may have been cannibals. Oh horrors. What an insult to my character.

If it's not an issue to you, what did you even bother posting?

Ts4EVER · 1st January 2013, 03:19 AM

Originally Posted by aggle-rithm

Yep, and Mein Kampf was supposed to be the new Bible.

It was a rambling hate-screed, but it at least had the advantage of having a single author.

Alfred Rosenberg also was a very vocal opponent of christianity. In his book "The myth of the 20th century" he claims that the "indo-aryan interpretation" of Christianity was more valid than the "Judaistic" one and that there should be a new wave of "positive Christianity" to lead into a new blood based religious order. As you can imagine, a lot of bollocks. It was never adopted as official party line out of fear of offending Christians.

bruto · 1st January 2013, 06:59 AM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

If it's not an issue to you, what did you even bother posting?

Yeah, in a thread about how Christians are trying to disavow Hitler, why on earth would anyone think an opinion on the stupidity of the effort is germane?

MaGZ · 2nd January 2013, 02:59 AM

Originally Posted by catsmate1

Firstly:

Many of Hitlers views, such as his anti-semitism, undoubtedly derive from xian tradition; one could say that xianity helped to create and mould Hitler.

I doubt Hitler’s anti-Semitism had anything to do with Christianity. You don’t see him celebrating the life or doctrines of Martin Luther for example.
Hitler saw the Jews as an alien race (from his experience in Vienna) and the founders of Bolshevik Russia (Hitler being influenced by Alfred Rosenberg and Dietrich Eckart).

MaGZ · 2nd January 2013, 03:05 AM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

I gave the high and the low I've seen in studies. The truth is we won't ever know for sure. It's also true that the European invasion was a disaster for nearly every native group in the Americas.

How many Indians in the New World in 1492?
You Holocausters are really amazing.

MaGZ · 2nd January 2013, 03:10 AM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

The answer to the question is that having religion doesn't give the person the moral high ground. People will be people regardless of their religious leaning. The problem is religion gives people permission to be idiots.

How does the Jewish Bolsheviks fit into you theory? The founders of the Soviet state were largely atheist Jews.

catsmate1 · 2nd January 2013, 03:26 AM

Originally Posted by MaGZ

I doubt Hitler’s anti-Semitism had anything to do with Christianity. You don’t see him celebrating the life or doctrines of Martin Luther for example.
Hitler saw the Jews as an alien race (from his experience in Vienna) and the founders of Bolshevik Russia (Hitler being influenced by Alfred Rosenberg and Dietrich Eckart).

At the risk of actually validating some of your anti-semetic crap one doesn't have to embrace the tenets of a religion to be influenced by a religious upbringing.

Originally Posted by MaGZ

How does the Jewish Bolsheviks fit into you theory? The founders of the Soviet state were largely atheist Jews.

Well there goes any pretense of rational discussion; you've had it explained to you previously that this crap simply isn't true.

Gawdzilla · 2nd January 2013, 03:29 AM

Originally Posted by MaGZ

How many Indians in the New World in 1492?
You Holocausters are really amazing.

So, you tell me how far off those studies are, please?

30th December 2012, 04:24 PM	#41
Axxman300 Scholar Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 109	Hitler was an a-hole. His religious views varied depending on whom he was speaking to. Hitler was a vegetarian, artist, decorated war veteran who loved children and dogs. These facts alone would make him electable today in a number of countries even toady. None of them are relevant. Himmler, the head of the S.S., had a plan to replace all religion with a state created religion based on his warped vision of a Teutonic faith with the S.S. serving as high priests. He never got there due to the whole Germany losing the war-thing. The National Socialist German Workers Party (Nazi) was elected into power by a population reeling from the depression, and their treatment as a nation after WWI. Germany had been at war with somebody for 300 years, and they were just a very angry people. The basic truth of 1930s Germany is that it could have been an athiest paradise, and Hitler still would have been elected by their people. The Third Reich is the most written-about, well documented subject in the library. I suggest you read more, and post less. You are not serving your atheist crusade well.
Axxman300 Scholar Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 109

30th December 2012, 04:31 PM	#42
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 20,947	The argument is usually this: Hitler did bad things, so he couldn't be a Christian.
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

30th December 2012, 04:45 PM	#43
DevilMayhem666 New Blood Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 22	I'm pretty he mention god a lot in that book he write.
DevilMayhem666 New Blood Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 22

30th December 2012, 05:18 PM	#44
MontagK505 Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Peoples Republick of Kalifornia Posts: 1,800	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken The argument is usually this: Hitler did bad things, so he couldn't be a Christian. The question isn't about Hitlers religious ideology. The question is how could a 90% Christan population allow the monsters, that were the upper echelon of the Nazi party, to come to power? The argument that many Christians today make, is that removing God from our schools, government, etc is the cause of all the evil in the world, falls flat when you look at Germany in the 1930's. Even allowing for bad economic times these right-thinking Christians should have seen The Nazis for what they were. Just spouting religious ideology doesn't give any special moral insight.
	__________________ Self deception is the root of all evil. Political correctness is linguistic Fascism. - P.D. James

30th December 2012, 05:43 PM	#45
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,350	Originally Posted by Axxman300 His religious views varied depending on whom he was speaking to. Sounds like any other religious person.
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

30th December 2012, 05:45 PM	#46
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,350	Originally Posted by MontagK505 The question isn't about Hitlers religious ideology. The question is how could a 90% Christan population allow the monsters, that were the upper echelon of the Nazi party, to come to power? The argument that many Christians today make, is that removing God from our schools, government, etc is the cause of all the evil in the world, falls flat when you look at Germany in the 1930's. Even allowing for bad economic times these right-thinking Christians should have seen The Nazis for what they were. Just spouting religious ideology doesn't give any special moral insight. The answer to the question is that having religion doesn't give the person the moral high ground. People will be people regardless of their religious leaning. The problem is religion gives people permission to be idiots.
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

30th December 2012, 05:47 PM	#47
angrysoba Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 8,503	Originally Posted by MontagK505 "Gott mit uns" True, but didn't that belt-buckle pre-date the Nazis?

30th December 2012, 06:05 PM	#48
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 16,366	Originally Posted by fishbob ... the heads of the southern baptists and the scientologits, and all the televangelists. Originally Posted by Axxman300 These facts alone would make him electable today in a number of countries even toady I can't decide which typo I like better.

30th December 2012, 06:15 PM	#49
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,350	Originally Posted by angrysoba True, but didn't that belt-buckle pre-date the Nazis? Used in WWI.
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

30th December 2012, 06:50 PM	#50
MontagK505 Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Peoples Republick of Kalifornia Posts: 1,800	Originally Posted by angrysoba True, but didn't that belt-buckle pre-date the Nazis? The WW2 version had a Swastika and Eagle with the motto on a wreath .
	__________________ Self deception is the root of all evil. Political correctness is linguistic Fascism. - P.D. James

30th December 2012, 08:05 PM	#51
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Originally Posted by thrombus29 http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1250307.The_Spear Herbert isn't too hacky. That site must be pretty weak if Randi.org can slashdot it.
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31st December 2012, 02:30 AM	#52
ddt Mafia Penguin Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 10,314	Originally Posted by angrysoba I remember not long ago quoting from a Richard Evans book on the Third Reich supposedly giving Hitler's views on Christianity. They were very negative. However, someone else on this forum, maybe ddt, said that the quotes were fabrications that had been inserted into "Hitler's Table Talk" that was edited, I think, by Hugh Very-Ropey. link to previous discussion. The link I gave there was a paper by Carrier.
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31st December 2012, 04:15 AM	#53
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,639	the problem is that when it comes to what one believes, that we have to take his word for it. as he claimed to believe in some kind of creator/god and also seemed to claim to believe in Jesus, we must accept that he was not an Atheist. but whats the point of debatng it? want to make a group feel bad about Hitler being part of that group? well i got news for ya. Hitler was a Human.
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31st December 2012, 05:00 AM	#54
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,350	Originally Posted by DC the problem is that when it comes to what one believes, that we have to take his word for it. as he claimed to believe in some kind of creator/god and also seemed to claim to believe in Jesus, we must accept that he was not an Atheist. All beliefs are evidenced solely by personal statement. If we're to believe that Hitler wasn't an believer based on the fact that the only evidence is his own statement then we'd have to apply that to all believers. Which may just be the case, when you think about it. Quote: but whats the point of debatng it? want to make a group feel bad about Hitler being part of that group? well i got news for ya. Hitler was a Human. How's this. I hereby give you permission to give yourself permission to not discuss the issue.
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

31st December 2012, 06:04 AM	#55
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,084	Originally Posted by Ts4EVER http://feuerbringer.files.wordpress.....jpg%3Fw%3D645 What a rood picture! ;-)
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31st December 2012, 06:17 AM	#56
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,350	Originally Posted by BenBurch What a rood picture! ;-) I like how the cross is floating over his head. "That's a sign that God is with him, I just know it!"
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

31st December 2012, 07:00 AM	#57
Rincewind Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,160	Originally Posted by Gawdzilla I like how the cross is floating over his head. "That's a sign that God is with him, I just know it!" I think that that's the clincher...

31st December 2012, 07:24 AM	#58
catsmate1 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Dublin (the one in Ireland) Posts: 7,095	Originally Posted by DevilMayhem666 I'm pretty he mention god a lot in that book he write. And in speeches and personal conversation, but to what extent did he actually believe and in what. Originally Posted by Gawdzilla Sounds like any other religious person. Or politician. Originally Posted by Gawdzilla The answer to the question is that having religion doesn't give the person the moral high ground. People will be people regardless of their religious leaning. The problem is religion gives people permission to be idiots. Hence the claims by the god botherers that Hitler must have been a godless atheist. Originally Posted by DC the problem is that when it comes to what one believes, that we have to take his word for it. as he claimed to believe in some kind of creator/god and also seemed to claim to believe in Jesus, we must accept that he was not an Atheist. That Hitler believes in something I think is certain, exactly what xianity-derived nonsense is more difficult to say. What interests me is how much xianity influenced his beliefs. Originally Posted by BenBurch What a rood picture! ;-) Burn the punster.
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31st December 2012, 09:11 AM	#59
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,350	Originally Posted by catsmate1 Hence the claims by the god botherers that Hitler must have been a godless atheist. You lost me there.
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

31st December 2012, 09:56 AM	#60
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,639	Originally Posted by Gawdzilla All beliefs are evidenced solely by personal statement. If we're to believe that Hitler wasn't an believer based on the fact that the only evidence is his own statement then we'd have to apply that to all believers. Which may just be the case, when you think about it. How's this. I hereby give you permission to give yourself permission to not discuss the issue. that's what we do, we take someone's word for it when they say, i believe in this god. how would anyone be in a position to know if its actually true or not?
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

31st December 2012, 10:01 AM	#61
Ron_Tomkins Satan's Helper Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: NYC Posts: 31,990	So what if he was an atheist? What difference would that make?
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31st December 2012, 10:27 AM	#62
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 20,947	Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins So what if he was an atheist? What difference would that make? It "proves" that atheists are evil and immoral. Only Christians can be moral.[/fundie]
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

31st December 2012, 10:35 AM	#63
Aepervius Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bierland. I mean , germany. Posts: 7,730	Originally Posted by shuttlt I think you'll find he was no true believer, and hence an athiest. Yes indeed he was a true scottman. For the thread : I think it is assumed that at least partially he believed some of the idea in private, though whatever was said in public to mass can pretty much often be seen in the view of manipulating the mass.
	__________________ Omnes Blessant Ultima necat "I want, and this is my last and most dear wish, I want that the last of the king be strangled with the guts of the last priest" (Jean Meslier / 1664-1729 / Testament) A very early french atheist, a catholic priest in life.

31st December 2012, 12:46 PM	#64
catsmate1 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Dublin (the one in Ireland) Posts: 7,095	Originally Posted by Gawdzilla You lost me there. Sorry, Firefox has developed the habit of crashing on me and most of my answer disappeared into the ether. The point I wanted to make was that while there's no link between religious belief and moral behaviour the god botherers think there is, for whatever reasons. Hence when they see someone whose actions were clearly immoral they have difficulty accepting that that person could also have been a believer, like them. It undercuts what they believe is the foundation for their morality. Thus to the believer Hitler can't also have been a believer and must have been an atheist. This is part of the problem I have with religion; it causes people to abnegate their responsibility to think for themselves and act responsibly, in favour of an external source of morality that doesn't stand stand up to scrutiny and can easily be modified to suit existing prejudices.
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31st December 2012, 01:15 PM	#65
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,350	Originally Posted by DC that's what we do, we take someone's word for it when they say, i believe in this god. how would anyone be in a position to know if its actually true or not? Proof of any god or gods would be a start. Without that I don't believe anyone's god is real, nor do I believe they actually believe in this being or beings. No need to grant "True Believer" status to someone who can't provide evidence.
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

31st December 2012, 01:16 PM	#66
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,350	Originally Posted by catsmate1 Sorry, Firefox has developed the habit of crashing on me and most of my answer disappeared into the ether. The point I wanted to make was that while there's no link between religious belief and moral behaviour the god botherers think there is, for whatever reasons. Hence when they see someone whose actions were clearly immoral they have difficulty accepting that that person could also have been a believer, like them. It undercuts what they believe is the foundation for their morality. Thus to the believer Hitler can't also have been a believer and must have been an atheist. This is part of the problem I have with religion; it causes people to abnegate their responsibility to think for themselves and act responsibly, in favour of an external source of morality that doesn't stand stand up to scrutiny and can easily be modified to suit existing prejudices. If they think there's a link, why don't they act like it?
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

31st December 2012, 01:17 PM	#67
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,350	Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins So what if he was an atheist? What difference would that make? To me, none. But he's a post child for "Evil Atheist" in the fundy camp. That's why I'm here.
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

31st December 2012, 01:51 PM	#68
aggle-rithm Ardent Formulist Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 14,149	Originally Posted by Axxman300 Himmler, the head of the S.S., had a plan to replace all religion with a state created religion based on his warped vision of a Teutonic faith with the S.S. serving as high priests. He never got there due to the whole Germany losing the war-thing. Yep, and Mein Kampf was supposed to be the new Bible. It was a rambling hate-screed, but it at least had the advantage of having a single author.
	__________________ To understand recursion, you must first understand recursion. Woo's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by aliens.

31st December 2012, 01:54 PM	#69
aggle-rithm Ardent Formulist Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 14,149	Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins So what if he was an atheist? What difference would that make? Well, it's a good thing he didn't win, since the victors get to define the nature of reality.
	__________________ To understand recursion, you must first understand recursion. Woo's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by aliens.

31st December 2012, 03:16 PM	#70
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,639	Originally Posted by Gawdzilla Proof of any god or gods would be a start. Without that I don't believe anyone's god is real, nor do I believe they actually believe in this being or beings. No need to grant "True Believer" status to someone who can't provide evidence. well it does not matter one bit if the god he beliefs in is real or not. the question is, does he belief in him or not.
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31st December 2012, 04:08 PM	#71
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,350	Originally Posted by DC well it does not matter one bit if the god he beliefs in is real or not. the question is, does he belief in him or not. Sorry, but New Years Eve is getting between comprehension and response. I'll be back tomorrow.
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

31st December 2012, 08:23 PM	#72
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 11,180	The whole idea that either Christians or atheists are getting upset about what Hitler might have believed seems utterly ridiculous to me. What next? Yeah, he believed some things and didn't believe some others. He ate some things and didn't eat others, and he probably preferred some brands of shoes and underwear. You don't have to look up what those were and then avoid them out of fear you might be too Hitlerish. Vlad the Impaler was a Christian and Stalin was an atheist, but it's been months and months since either Janadele or I slaughtered a peasant. It reminds me a bit of people getting bent out of shape when some anthropologist suggests our distant cave ancestors may have been cannibals. Oh horrors. What an insult to my character.
	__________________ "Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding.(Samuel Johnson) The gods are less for their love of praise....(Wendell Berry)

1st January 2013, 03:18 AM	#73
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,350	Originally Posted by bruto The whole idea that either Christians or atheists are getting upset about what Hitler might have believed seems utterly ridiculous to me. What next? Yeah, he believed some things and didn't believe some others. He ate some things and didn't eat others, and he probably preferred some brands of shoes and underwear. You don't have to look up what those were and then avoid them out of fear you might be too Hitlerish. Vlad the Impaler was a Christian and Stalin was an atheist, but it's been months and months since either Janadele or I slaughtered a peasant. It reminds me a bit of people getting bent out of shape when some anthropologist suggests our distant cave ancestors may have been cannibals. Oh horrors. What an insult to my character. If it's not an issue to you, what did you even bother posting?
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

1st January 2013, 03:19 AM	#74
Ts4EVER Scholar Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 68	Originally Posted by aggle-rithm Yep, and Mein Kampf was supposed to be the new Bible. It was a rambling hate-screed, but it at least had the advantage of having a single author. Alfred Rosenberg also was a very vocal opponent of christianity. In his book "The myth of the 20th century" he claims that the "indo-aryan interpretation" of Christianity was more valid than the "Judaistic" one and that there should be a new wave of "positive Christianity" to lead into a new blood based religious order. As you can imagine, a lot of bollocks. It was never adopted as official party line out of fear of offending Christians.
Ts4EVER Scholar Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 68

1st January 2013, 06:59 AM	#75
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 11,180	Originally Posted by Gawdzilla If it's not an issue to you, what did you even bother posting? Yeah, in a thread about how Christians are trying to disavow Hitler, why on earth would anyone think an opinion on the stupidity of the effort is germane?
	__________________ "Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding.(Samuel Johnson) The gods are less for their love of praise....(Wendell Berry)