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Old 5th January 2013, 02:34 PM   #1
CplFerro
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Is parental shielding of children from violent media products just?

Dear All,

If violence-depicting media products like certain films, comic books, and music do not induce violent behaviour in children, youth, or adults, why are there film ratings? Why are children and to a lesser extent youth shielded by parents from mediated violence? What does it matter if 6 year old Betsy perceives the Evil Dead remake, for example?

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Old 5th January 2013, 02:39 PM   #2
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Are you saying the ratings exist because of a proven causal link?
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Old 5th January 2013, 02:40 PM   #3
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There are film ratings because of a perceived consumer demand and a rather bizarre industry's history.

As for parents, they are shirking their responsibilities by delegating them to industries, corporations, and marketers when they allow/disallow their children to do/watch/participate in X, Y, and Z based on what the people selling X, Y, and Z say about it instead of checking it out for themselves.
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Old 5th January 2013, 02:49 PM   #4
CplFerro
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Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost View Post
Are you saying the ratings exist because of a proven causal link?
Dear Ghost,

I have no idea why the ratings exist. What are your thoughts on my titular question?

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Old 5th January 2013, 03:15 PM   #5
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Question seems insincere.

But, yes I do. As a parent, I filtered depictions of violence (Transformers was okay because it depicts violence against machines)
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Old 5th January 2013, 03:19 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost View Post
Question seems insincere.

But, yes I do. As a parent, I filtered depictions of violence (Transformers was okay because it depicts violence against machines)
Why are you racist against robots?
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Old 5th January 2013, 03:20 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
As for parents, they are shirking their responsibilities by delegating them to industries, corporations, and marketers when they allow/disallow their children to do/watch/participate in X, Y, and Z based on what the people selling X, Y, and Z say about it instead of checking it out for themselves.
Film ratings are not given to movies by the studios that made them or are selling them, but by a third party that doesn't make any money per film sold.
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Old 5th January 2013, 03:22 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Alareth View Post
Why are you racist against robots?
I take it you haven't seen the Terminator series of documentaries, so you can be excused for ignorance. They tell the story of how machines are the worst thing ever invented even though they're so cool and awesome.
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Old 5th January 2013, 03:28 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Film ratings are not given to movies by the studios that made them or are selling them, but by a third party that doesn't make any money per film sold.
Since the studios tweak the films to get the rating they want so they can maximize sales, and the body giving the ratings is an insane special interest group composed of out-of-touch maniacs, I think that's even worse than straight-up self-interest. It's an ethical and artistic abomination.

Parents who are genuinely worried about what they children see will see the movie themselves first. Why substitute the judgment of total strangers for one's own?
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Old 5th January 2013, 03:30 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Since the studios tweak the films to get the rating they want so they can maximize sales, and the body giving the ratings is an insane special interest group composed of out-of-touch maniacs, I think that's even worse than straight-up self-interest. It's an ethical and artistic abomination.

Parents who are genuinely worried about what they children see will see the movie themselves first. Why substitute the judgment of total strangers for one's own?
AFAIK, you don't have kids, but you should be a parent because you make sense.
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Old 5th January 2013, 03:33 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost View Post
AFAIK, you don't have kids, but you should be a parent because you make sense.
God forbid on both!

I do plan on being a wacky uncle someday. That I can do. "The noisiest toy in the store? Of course, my boy! We'll get two, for when your mommy 'accidentally' breaks the first one!"
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Old 5th January 2013, 03:56 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost View Post
Question seems insincere.
That's because it is insincere. In fact, his entire shtick seems to be to ask a leading question (can video games ever in any way have the slightest influence in violence ever). Then when people refuse to fall for it he dishonestly reports that they said no rather than the truth that they largely answered yes but saw through his "trick" and made sure to answer in a way that derailed his little equivocation game.
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Old 5th January 2013, 04:16 PM   #13
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The OP has no point. Just implies right(correct) or legal. Parental rules - as long as they do not involve beatings or other physical or mental harm - have no requirements to be just or legal, they should simply be what the parents believe is right (and not harmful) for their child. And, if they misinterpret what causes harm they should be gently, or by armed forced, moved from it.

As a child who was prevented from having comic books and other materials, I became very interested in what and why and got interested in violence, pornography and horror stuff. This never has abated so I just note this to curious parents when the subject comes up.

For those not quite catching the point: what you prevent your children from today does not preclude them seeking it out due to the fuss over it. At the time or later!!
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Old 5th January 2013, 04:28 PM   #14
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Yeah, I greatly disliked the ratings system. My mother bought into it at one time and decided to take away my "M" rated game Zone of the Enders. Which is particularly moronic because 1) the protagonist is a devoted pacifist, and 2) you are fighting giant robots, and when you are fighting people in giant robots the protag specifically lets them live, even when they don't have name-tags!

This Film Is Not Yet Rated is a great look at all the insanity that goes into the movie rating business.

Anyway, the reason might not only be because of "causing them to be murderers", but just generally disturbing them. Heck, even today I depend on internetfolk to help prevent me from making a mistake and watching Ai no Kusabi and crying my eyes out the next few days. But I would add other things in there, like the incredibly dubious lessons of Twilight.

True story about my sister: We were looking at fan-art for a certain slash pairing in an anime:
Sis: Yeah, I think Natsume is the feminine one.
Me: (I could give a lecture about the seme/uke dynamic, but no)
Sis: You know, how in gay couples one of them is always femine.
Me: I don't think it works that way, even in anime...
Sis: But it does in real life too.
Me: ORLY?
Sis: Yeah, like Kurt and Blain on Glee.

But anyway, I know kids who got freaked out by Voldemort in the first Harry Potter movie, and that was nothing! I always wonder if violence tolerance is something developed over experience or something that requires neurological development.
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Old 5th January 2013, 04:29 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
God forbid on both!

I do plan on being a wacky uncle someday. That I can do. "The noisiest toy in the store? Of course, my boy! We'll get two, for when your mommy 'accidentally' breaks the first one!"
"Why doesn't Uncle Monkey come by any more? Well honey, he's a troublemaker. No, you don't need more than one drum kit even if he did buy you two. ...Because you can't have it, that's why. ...go live with him then, and tell him I sent you!"
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Old 5th January 2013, 04:36 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
The OP has no point. Just implies right(correct) or legal. Parental rules - as long as they do not involve beatings or other physical or mental harm - have no requirements to be just or legal, they should simply be what the parents believe is right (and not harmful) for their child. And, if they misinterpret what causes harm they should be gently, or by armed forced, moved from it.

As a child who was prevented from having comic books and other materials, I became very interested in what and why and got interested in violence, pornography and horror stuff. This never has abated so I just note this to curious parents when the subject comes up.

For those not quite catching the point: what you prevent your children from today does not preclude them seeking it out due to the fuss over it. At the time or later!!
My Catholic mother prevented me from listening to heavy metal and watching MTV.

I mean, she tried, and I complied briefly, stopped complying, then she gave up.
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Old 5th January 2013, 04:52 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost View Post
But, yes I do. As a parent, I filtered depictions of violence (Transformers was okay because it depicts violence against machines)
Dear Ghost,

Why did you filter depictions of violence?

Cpl Ferro
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Old 5th January 2013, 04:53 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
The OP has no point. Just implies right(correct) or legal. Parental rules - as long as they do not involve beatings or other physical or mental harm - have no requirements to be just or legal, they should simply be what the parents believe is right (and not harmful) for their child. And, if they misinterpret what causes harm they should be gently, or by armed forced, moved from it.

As a child who was prevented from having comic books and other materials, I became very interested in what and why and got interested in violence, pornography and horror stuff. This never has abated so I just note this to curious parents when the subject comes up.

For those not quite catching the point: what you prevent your children from today does not preclude them seeking it out due to the fuss over it. At the time or later!!
Preclude? It virtually guarantees it..

Your post is best response this thread will get ..
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Old 5th January 2013, 04:57 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
The OP has no point. Just implies right(correct) or legal. Parental rules - as long as they do not involve beatings or other physical or mental harm - have no requirements to be just or legal, they should simply be what the parents believe is right (and not harmful) for their child. And, if they misinterpret what causes harm they should be gently, or by armed forced, moved from it.

As a child who was prevented from having comic books and other materials, I became very interested in what and why and got interested in violence, pornography and horror stuff. This never has abated so I just note this to curious parents when the subject comes up.

For those not quite catching the point: what you prevent your children from today does not preclude them seeking it out due to the fuss over it. At the time or later!!
Dear fuelair,

I didn 't ask about legalities. I asked what is right.

So, you're saying horror movies never cause mental harm to children, because it is always just to let children watch them?

Cpl Ferro
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Old 5th January 2013, 05:07 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by CplFerro View Post
Dear Ghost,

Why did you filter depictions of violence?

Cpl Ferro
Cut to the chase. Zis converzation iss becoming tirezome
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Old 5th January 2013, 05:13 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by CplFerro View Post
Dear fuelair,

I didn 't ask about legalities. I asked what is right.

So, you're saying horror movies never cause mental harm to children, because it is always just to let children watch them?

Cpl Ferro
No, fuelair clearly said nothing of the sort.

Why do you find it necessary to transparently lie about what other people say?

Do you honestly believe these lies won't be noticed when their words are there for us to read?
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Old 5th January 2013, 05:22 PM   #22
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I find this quite interesting. I am a very conservative (politically) but very liberal (socially) person. Before I had a child I would have been in the 'don't let kids see bad stuff' camp. Since I had one though, my view has changed.

My son, who is only 9, plays Grand Theft Auto. He never repeats the language, shows any sign of being oriented towards violence or whatever. He only wants to complete the missions, which he sees as tactical puzzles to be solved. When he first started playing, he used to stop at red lights (doesn't do that now since it impedes the mission).

Net result - I am fine with him playing GTA. There are many things that I would not be fine with him seeing but that video game doesn't have any adverse affect on him. I believe that I can make a call on what he should be able to see and do and that in his case, GTA is ok at his age. I don't welcome anyone else / government deciding such for me though...
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Old 5th January 2013, 05:22 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost View Post
Cut to the chase. Zis converzation iss becoming tirezome
It's like watching a junior high school debate team try to lure philosophy professors into a Socrates-style "gotcha". Everyone sees it coming miles away, it's never going to happen, but the persistence, er, persists.
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Old 5th January 2013, 05:37 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost View Post
Cut to the chase. Zis converzation iss becoming tirezome
Dear Ghost,

If you're too tired to answer the questions go to sleep. I was going to say "put yourself to sleep" but that sounded wrong.

Cpl Ferro

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Old 5th January 2013, 05:39 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Irony View Post
No, fuelair clearly said nothing of the sort.

Why do you find it necessary to transparently lie about what other people say?

Do you honestly believe these lies won't be noticed when their words are there for us to read?
Dear Irony,

Do horror movies or other violence-depicting media products never cause mental harm to children?

Cpl Ferro
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Old 5th January 2013, 05:41 PM   #26
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It kinda seems like a trolljob. Just make your point.
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Old 5th January 2013, 05:42 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost View Post
It kinda seems like a trolljob. Just make your point.
Dear Ghost,

My point is the line of questioning I started with. Do violence-depicting media products ever cause harm to children?

Cpl Ferro

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Old 5th January 2013, 05:43 PM   #28
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When did you stop beating your partner/spouse?
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Old 5th January 2013, 05:45 PM   #29
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IMO, if a parent decides that they think Ninja Turtles cartoons are too violent, yet let them watch Titanic, turn around and ban Transformers movies, but OK Star Wars.... who am I to judge?

At least they are showing an interest in their children and care enough to moderate the content they watch (even I personally might fin their decisions silly and/or arcane)
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Old 5th January 2013, 05:45 PM   #30
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I do have to admit to getting a giggle from a film executive that was commenting on a movie (I believe it was Leathal Weapon 2) and stated that violence on the screen doesn't influence anyone, but then added shortly after that they were actually doing a public service because one scene (about 6 seconds long) would encourage people to wear their seatbelts.
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Old 5th January 2013, 05:51 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by CplFerro View Post
Dear Irony,

Do horror movies or other violence-depicting media products never cause mental harm to children?

Cpl Ferro
Dear Cpl Ferro,

You're tactics are obvious to everyone here, you use words like "ever" and "never" to force an answer, and, should anyone not catch on and give you that answer, you will then proceed to drop the "ever" or "never" and continue as though they have stated that they cause harm overall.

The answer the the more honest question, "is there evidence that horror movies and other violent media causes significant harm to children" is no, perhaps due to their natural resilience or perhaps do the the control we already exercise there is little cause to believe in this "harm" on any sort of societal level.

Now, the second game you play is to lie about what you've been told. To this effect you will now act as though I said no (or yes, hard to say which is the negative answer because of the negative structure of your question) to your original, vague and dishonestly presented question when I clearly did not. I object to your question on the grounds that it is so vague that you could literally replace "horror movies and violent media" with "fluffy pillows" and it would not change the answer. Yes, fluffy pillows may very well have at some point contributed to the mental harm of a child.
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Old 5th January 2013, 05:54 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by hodgy View Post
I find this quite interesting. I am a very conservative (politically) but very liberal (socially) person. Before I had a child I would have been in the 'don't let kids see bad stuff' camp. Since I had one though, my view has changed.

My son, who is only 9, plays Grand Theft Auto. He never repeats the language, shows any sign of being oriented towards violence or whatever. He only wants to complete the missions, which he sees as tactical puzzles to be solved. When he first started playing, he used to stop at red lights (doesn't do that now since it impedes the mission).

Net result - I am fine with him playing GTA. There are many things that I would not be fine with him seeing but that video game doesn't have any adverse affect on him. I believe that I can make a call on what he should be able to see and do and that in his case, GTA is ok at his age. I don't welcome anyone else / government deciding such for me though...
Dear hodgy,

Is there any depiction of violence you would censor for your son, and if so, what and why?

Cpl Ferro
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Old 5th January 2013, 06:01 PM   #33
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FYI public service announcement: opening your posts with "Dear" and signing them all with your user name tends to make you look kind of eccentric. To put it politely. Everybody knows who you are, it's in big type with a picture just to the left. A word to the wise, eh?
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Old 5th January 2013, 06:09 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by CplFerro View Post
Dear hodgy,

Is there any depiction of violence you would censor for your son, and if so, what and why?

Cpl Ferro
Good question.

Realistic bloody violence I would not want him to see. Why? Just because its not nice to see realistic bloody violence and he does not want to see it.


GTA is not much worse than Lord of the Rings or other books I read when young, violence-wise.
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Old 5th January 2013, 06:12 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
FYI public service announcement: opening your posts with "Dear" and signing them all with your user name tends to make you look kind of eccentric. To put it politely. Everybody knows who you are, it's in big type with a picture just to the left. A word to the wise, eh?
Good call Mr (presumably) T Monkey.
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Old 5th January 2013, 06:16 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Irony View Post
The answer the the more honest question, "is there evidence that horror movies and other violent media causes significant harm to children" is no, perhaps due to their natural resilience or perhaps do the the control we already exercise there is little cause to believe in this "harm" on any sort of societal level.
Dear Irony,

I'm not going to have a conversation about a conversation.

My question is, is parental shielding of children from violent media products just? If your answer to your (quoted) alternate question is "no" then must not the answer to my question also be "no"?

Cpl Ferro
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Old 5th January 2013, 06:22 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
FYI public service announcement: opening your posts with "Dear" and signing them all with your user name tends to make you look kind of eccentric. To put it politely. Everybody knows who you are, it's in big type with a picture just to the left. A word to the wise, eh?
Dear Monkey, Do horror movies or other violence-depicting media products never cause mental harm to children?

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Old 5th January 2013, 06:26 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by CplFerro View Post
Dear Irony,

I'm not going to have a conversation about a conversation.

My question is, is parental shielding of children from violent media products just? If your answer to your (quoted) alternate question is "no" then must not the answer to my question also be "no"?

Cpl Ferro
Dear person who's forum name I forget (you should type it out more often),

No, it does not imply that. For an explanation, read the part of my post which you deliberately removed from that quote.

Again, what do you hope to gain by using such a transparent tactic of misrepresentation?
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Old 5th January 2013, 06:30 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost View Post
Dear Monkey, Do horror movies or other violence-depicting media products never cause mental harm to children?

Monketey Ghost
Dear Ms. Ghost,

A unpleasant emotion temporarily experienced doesn't necessarily constitute "mental harm".

Yours in the Heart of Christ,
Sister Mary Margaret Mary Monkey Mary Mary Maria Margarent Bernadette
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Old 5th January 2013, 06:34 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Since the studios tweak the films to get the rating they want so they can maximize sales, and the body giving the ratings is an insane special interest group composed of out-of-touch maniacs, I think that's even worse than straight-up self-interest. It's an ethical and artistic abomination.

Parents who are genuinely worried about what they children see will see the movie themselves first. Why substitute the judgment of total strangers for one's own?
Time and convenience? Most parents don't have the time to prewatch a movie before their kids do, or before they watch it with them. They rely in part on some general guidelines, though I would hope that's not all they rely on. Since one is free to ignore them, it seems moderately useful. If anything, I think it would be useful to have more information. A PG 13 can mean anything from a couple of risque words to hours of violence and mayhem.

It's not all always about "mental harm." Sometimes it's just a matter of taste and cultural preference, perhaps also of what you want to watch together with your kids, and occasionally of what the kids themselves would prefer. After all, if what your kids really want to see is butt kicking ninjas or magic spells, then an R for explicit sex scenes, which may not harm them a bit, is a useful way they can tell it's not what they're looking for.
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