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Old 19th January 2013, 05:14 PM   #881
AlBell
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Originally Posted by shawmutt View Post
...

may God have mercy on your soul.
But are you going to pray for him?
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Old 19th January 2013, 05:23 PM   #882
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Originally Posted by AlBell View Post
But are you going to pray for him?
Sorry, I might be watching Billy Madison while having a couple drinks (while twirling my assault weapon in the living room)
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Old 19th January 2013, 06:00 PM   #883
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
Sure they do. The phrase you're thinking of is "hard cases make bad laws" which is about using the fringe, edge cases to try and stop something that rarely happens because it's just so terrible, but in doing so you enact laws that cause harm and unintended consequences.

Gun violence is not an edge case. We have 30,000 gun deaths every year, including almost 600 deaths purely from accidental discharge of weapons.

So I reject your attempt at restricting this conversation to spree shootings only. Guns are responsible for deaths, used in crimes, used by weird gun nuts to walk down the street "educating" people, and used by idiots in their backyard to target practice, putting their neighbors in danger.

So like your misuse of the word "premise", you misunderstand "hard cases make bad laws".

It's perfectly reasonable to react to 30,000 American deaths every year with emotion and resolve to do something about it. It's the lack of emotion on the part of gun freaks that strikes me as shocking.
1- you mean like mass shootings? You mean to tell me that mass shootings with rifles are common? This is EXACTLY what you're referring to.

2- our lack of outrage (according to you apparently ) is because we don't want knee jerk laws based strictly on emotions, where you seem to think we should all react to this instance the same way you are.

I'm more than upset. I was furious that this happened. However I don't react illogically like you do.
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Old 19th January 2013, 06:07 PM   #884
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Originally Posted by triforcharity View Post
1- you mean like mass shootings? You mean to tell me that mass shootings with rifles are common? This is EXACTLY what you're referring to.
No I don't mean that and I don't know what you're referring to.

Quote:
2- our lack of outrage (according to you apparently ) is because we don't want knee jerk laws based strictly on emotions, where you seem to think we should all react to this instance the same way you are.
Yeah, **** happens.

Quote:
I'm more than upset. I was furious that this happened. However I don't react illogically like you do.
When we starting this discussion, you had 30 guns. Last time you bragged on your guns, you said you had 35.

Since the murders of 20 1st graders, you went out and bought 5 new guns.

Sorry, but my definition of illogical is vastly different than yours, that's for sure.
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Old 19th January 2013, 06:12 PM   #885
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I know, right? People are upset at Obama for passing executive orders amounting to reminding people what the current law is.
Perhaps you should follow along. You claimed that hunters with hunting licenses should have to go through a background check to buy a new shotgun. Which I answered of course they do. So wanna try again and not change the subject?

Oh, and banning HCM isn't reminding people of the laws.
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Old 19th January 2013, 06:24 PM   #886
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
Here's an amazing statistic. Just unbelievable.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...e-killed-guns/
Citation required proving this. Meaning, numbers with actual links. We'll wait
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Old 19th January 2013, 06:34 PM   #887
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
No I don't mean that and I don't know what you're referring to.



Yeah, **** happens.



When we starting this discussion, you had 30 guns. Last time you bragged on your guns, you said you had 35.

Since the murders of 20 1st graders, you went out and bought 5 new guns.

Sorry, but my definition of illogical is vastly different than yours, that's for sure.
Yes, hard cases are mass spree killings considering they account for less than 1% of the murders in the US. You're welcome to prove me wrong.

Wrt: our supposed under reaction. You're plain *********** wrong. Plain and simple.

Lastly, the 5 recent purchases have been planned for some time. One was not and it was because it's been a gun I've wanted for some time. Not sure what that has to do with the price of tea in China.
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Old 19th January 2013, 06:51 PM   #888
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post

Since the murders of 20 1st graders, you went out and bought 5 new guns.

Sorry, but my definition of illogical is vastly different than yours, that's for sure.
Unless, just speculating here, none of those extra guns will put any 1st graders at risk... in which case it isn't illogical at all.
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Old 19th January 2013, 07:01 PM   #889
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Originally Posted by triforcharity View Post
Citation required proving this. Meaning, numbers with actual links. We'll wait
You mean you doubt the number of people killed from those wars? Or you doubt the number of killed by gunfire? Because I think a link from the Tampa Bay Times (who runs Politifact) counts as an actual link and is already a citation.

Wait if you must, but I think you're being ridiculous.
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Old 19th January 2013, 07:46 PM   #890
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
Wait if you must, but I think you're being ridiculous.
Unaboogie
Premises:
a. Fear of guns means there’s a gun problem in America
b. Bushmaster is the weapon of choice for murder rampages
c. “Sick to death of guns”
d. The “most deadly weapons” need to be removed from society
e. Limits need to be placed on gun shows
f. Home ownership of guns should come with strict responsibilities
g. Move towards the goal of no one having guns
h. Supposedly responsible gun owners use their self-defense right to harm others
i. Gun hobby a huge waste of money
j. Make gun ownership illegal to stop people from enjoying it
k. Gun owners love their guns
l. Ban all guns
m. Proposed AWB is a “good start” (2. #4)
n. Gun enthusiasts are paranoid and crazy (2. #4, #55)
o. Banning guns works elsewhere (2. #45)
p. Gun enthusiasts have an unhealthy emotional attachment to their guns (2. #56)
q. License guns like cars, yearly safety checks, gun tax (2. #92)
r. No one needs large amount (#?) of guns (2. #94)
s. “Collections” = Arsenal (2. #94)
t. Anyone under 18 should not be allowed to shoot (2. #105)
u. Gun owners are ticking time bombs
v. Criminal gun use costs massive amounts of money (2. #115)
w. Guns are nothing but a blight (2. #144)
Misperceptions:
a. Easy for a felon to get his gun rights reinstated
b. Fireman shooter was able to get his firearm rights restored
c. Semi-autos are better at “spray and pray”
d. There is no extra gun tax
e. There are no controls to remove already owned firearms and licenses
f. There are not enough controls
g. There are no consequences for irresponsible gun handling
Firearm experience:
a. “got over my fascination with guns as a teenager”
b. May have shot an AK-47


You've gone beyond ridiculous. That's some ludicrous speed **** right there. I stopped tallying at around #200 on this thread.

Last edited by shawmutt; 19th January 2013 at 07:48 PM.
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Old 19th January 2013, 07:51 PM   #891
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You still don't understand the word "premise".
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Old 19th January 2013, 07:51 PM   #892
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Originally Posted by shawmutt View Post
Unaboogie
Premises:
a. Fear of guns means there’s a gun problem in America
b. Bushmaster is the weapon of choice for murder rampages
c. “Sick to death of guns”
d. The “most deadly weapons” need to be removed from society
e. Limits need to be placed on gun shows
f. Home ownership of guns should come with strict responsibilities
g. Move towards the goal of no one having guns
h. Supposedly responsible gun owners use their self-defense right to harm others
i. Gun hobby a huge waste of money
j. Make gun ownership illegal to stop people from enjoying it
k. Gun owners love their guns
l. Ban all guns
m. Proposed AWB is a “good start” (2. #4)
n. Gun enthusiasts are paranoid and crazy (2. #4, #55)
o. Banning guns works elsewhere (2. #45)
p. Gun enthusiasts have an unhealthy emotional attachment to their guns (2. #56)
q. License guns like cars, yearly safety checks, gun tax (2. #92)
r. No one needs large amount (#?) of guns (2. #94)
s. “Collections” = Arsenal (2. #94)
t. Anyone under 18 should not be allowed to shoot (2. #105)
u. Gun owners are ticking time bombs
v. Criminal gun use costs massive amounts of money (2. #115)
w. Guns are nothing but a blight (2. #144)
Misperceptions:
a. Easy for a felon to get his gun rights reinstated
b. Fireman shooter was able to get his firearm rights restored
c. Semi-autos are better at “spray and pray”
d. There is no extra gun tax
e. There are no controls to remove already owned firearms and licenses
f. There are not enough controls
g. There are no consequences for irresponsible gun handling
Firearm experience:
a. “got over my fascination with guns as a teenager”
b. May have shot an AK-47


You've gone beyond ridiculous. That's some ludicrous speed **** right there. I stopped tallying at around #200 on this thread.
I've been shot at with AK's...

What do I win?
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Old 19th January 2013, 08:34 PM   #893
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Quote:
I've been shot at with AK's...

What do I win?
Bullet-proof vest?
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Old 19th January 2013, 08:50 PM   #894
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
Just out of curiosity, do you have an equally strong stance against alcohol, a substance which is linked to twice as many deaths as guns and whose only purpose is for entertainment?

…the argument being…since we can count 70 or 80 thousand alcohol related deaths each year…it’s quite ok to have half that number from guns.

Or am I missing something?

Is this a thread about alcohol abuse? I look back through the previous 800 odd posts and don’t see a single reference to alcohol abuse. Being a skeptic…you are familiar with the word ‘fallacy’ I’m sure. Your heartfelt concern is noted though. If you’d like to begin a thread to discuss the matter I’m sure no one will object. Otherwise I’ll just have to conclude that you don’t give a damn and are simply trying to deflect attention from the points in my post. Feel free to demonstrate otherwise.

Originally Posted by shawmutt View Post
Seriously, like a 1 trick pony in a 3 ring circus. How many times are you going to need to read the response to this exact question?

"Although most gun owners reportedly keep a firearm in their home for "protection" or "self defense," 83 percent of gun-related deaths in these homes are the result of a suicide, often by someone other than the gun owner."


…that figure from the national center for health statistics for the year 2010.

Is it still necessary to conclude that gun availability had nothing to do with it?

Originally Posted by shawmutt View Post

Actually, according to http://www.suicidology.org/resources...de-fact-sheets, "...about one-half (49.5%) of the individuals who took their own lives in 2010 used [firearms]". Other methods win out by 50.5%, so sorry, but you're wrong.

I'm not sure why it's so hard for you to understand. Suicide rates are much higher in countries with much stricter gun laws. It's not statistical noise, not anomalies, they have significantly higher rates of suicide. It is simply a stupid argument to say banning guns would result in any decrease in suicides. In fact, the argument is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. Nothing in that argument is even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Unless you are going to support this correlation (evidence it’s called) …your argument is hogwash (somehow I don't think I'd be surprised). Suicide rates are higher in SOME countries with stricter gun laws…they are also lower in SOME countries with stricter gun laws. Do we really need to dump ten thousand pages of sociological studies on this thread to convince you that there are a multitude of issues that combine to influence suicide rates on a jurisdictional (cultural) basis.

In case you’ve forgotten…you argued that very position on another thread. That suicide rates are culturally determined. Can’t have it both ways dude. Choose your ground and stay there.

…and as for stupid arguments…I haven’t seen that much hand-waving since I visited the epileptic ward. “ The argument is stupid…because I say it is…over and over and over and over.” Congratulations. Three jelly beans.

20,000 gun related suicides annually and somehow reducing the number of guns wouldn’t change that??? I’m betting that if I did a quick informal survey of suicide counselors / professionals…close to 100% would disagree with you. Want to give it a go?
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Old 19th January 2013, 08:55 PM   #895
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Fire arms, 49.5%. Any other method makes up the rest. That means fire-arms are the preferred method. Also, fire-arms are much more likely to succeed than other methods.

SO 1. Fire-arms are the preferred method.
2. Fire-arms are the most 'reliable' method.
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Old 19th January 2013, 09:09 PM   #896
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Originally Posted by annnnoid View Post
…the argument being…since we can count 70 or 80 thousand alcohol related deaths each year…it’s quite ok to have half that number from guns.

Or am I missing something?

Is this a thread about alcohol abuse? I look back through the previous 800 odd posts and don’t see a single reference to alcohol abuse. Being a skeptic…you are familiar with the word ‘fallacy’ I’m sure. Your heartfelt concern is noted though. If you’d like to begin a thread to discuss the matter I’m sure no one will object. Otherwise I’ll just have to conclude that you don’t give a damn and are simply trying to deflect attention from the points in my post. Feel free to demonstrate otherwise.
Hmmm. The question was pretty straight forward and simple. You seem to have a strong stance against guns. Do you have an equally strong stance against alcohol? I am not suggesting that gun deaths are acceptable by any means. I am just wondering if you have an equally strong stance against something that causes more deaths and whose only purpose is entertainment.
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
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Old 19th January 2013, 09:10 PM   #897
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I dunno, quad. Do you have a strong stance against red-herrings? They have the ability to kill debate.
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Old 19th January 2013, 09:19 PM   #898
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
for some reason, no comment from the gunaphiles here.
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Old 19th January 2013, 09:49 PM   #899
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Originally Posted by RobDegraves View Post
Bullet-proof vest?
Already have, but I'll take another if anyone's giving...
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Old 19th January 2013, 09:52 PM   #900
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I dunno, quad. Do you have a strong stance against red-herrings? They have the ability to kill debate.
Why is it no one from the anti gun crowd can answer a simple question?
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken
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Old 19th January 2013, 09:53 PM   #901
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
You mean you doubt the number of people killed from those wars? Or you doubt the number of killed by gunfire? Because I think a link from the Tampa Bay Times (who runs Politifact) counts as an actual link and is already a citation.

Wait if you must, but I think you're being ridiculous.
Wait, you think that because you made a claim via proxy, and I ask you to back it up, that's ridiculous??

Back up your claim. Post the numbers from all wars. Then the numbers from firearm deaths from the same time frame.

Get to work. You've got some homework of your OWN to do to back up your claim. Linking to someone else claiming it, isn't a citation of evidence.
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Old 19th January 2013, 09:58 PM   #902
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Originally Posted by annnnoid View Post
"Although most gun owners reportedly keep a firearm in their home for "protection" or "self defense," 83 percent of gun-related deaths in these homes are the result of a suicide, often by someone other than the gun owner."[/i]

…that figure from the national center for health statistics for the year 2010.

Is it still necessary to conclude that gun availability had nothing to do with it?
Yes, because you cannot conclusively PROVE that they wouldn't have chosen another method.

To do so would require you to be a psychic.

Originally Posted by annnnoid View Post
20,000 gun related suicides annually and somehow reducing the number of guns wouldn’t change that??? I’m betting that if I did a quick informal survey of suicide counselors / professionals…close to 100% would disagree with you. Want to give it a go?
Sure. Go ahead and survey 1,000, from many different states, put it into a spreadsheet or whatever you'd like, and we'll take a look.

You make the claim, you back it up.
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Old 19th January 2013, 09:58 PM   #903
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
Why is it no one from the anti gun crowd can answer a simple question?
Because it's not relevant to the discussion.
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Old 19th January 2013, 09:59 PM   #904
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
for some reason, no comment from the gunaphiles here.
Because it starts out with a false conclusion, and poisons the well even more from there, relying on hyperbole and idiocy. No wonder you and Una cited it.
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Old 20th January 2013, 03:58 AM   #905
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Data point...

...in GA, it's relatively easy to get a concealed firearms permit. Both Karen and I got ours some time ago.

To get one, you have to get fingerprinted (at the County Jail in our county), pay a small fee and pass a background check. Takes a few weeks and is good for five years.

Only relevant here in that if you present your permit, you do not have to undergo yet another background check when you purchase a firearm. Streamlines the process. Still have to fill out the federal form, but that's about it.

BTW, when the permit expires, there's no renewal. You have to go through the fingerprint and background check again, which seems a bit silly - at least the fingerprint part since they don't normally change. But there you have it.

As an aside, here in southern Appalachia guns are part of the culture and virtually everywhere. Yet somehow, gun crime is pretty rare. Just sayin'.

Last edited by Fast Eddie B; 20th January 2013 at 04:01 AM.
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Old 20th January 2013, 04:09 AM   #906
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
for some reason, no comment from the gunaphiles here.
It's more like "you idiots!" and " happens" than anything else.
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Old 20th January 2013, 04:18 AM   #907
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Re: 2013 Feinstein Assault Weapons Ban

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Data point...

...in GA, it's relatively easy to get a concealed firearms permit. Both Karen and I got ours some time ago.

To get one, you have to get fingerprinted (at the County Jail in our county), pay a small fee and pass a background check. Takes a few weeks and is good for five years.

Only relevant here in that if you present your permit, you do not have to undergo yet another background check when you purchase a firearm. Streamlines the process. Still have to fill out the federal form, but that's about it.

BTW, when the permit expires, there's no renewal. You have to go through the fingerprint and background check again, which seems a bit silly - at least the fingerprint part since they don't normally change. But there you have it.

As an aside, here in southern Appalachia guns are part of the culture and virtually everywhere. Yet somehow, gun crime is pretty rare. Just sayin'.
You're never just saying. (Also, wait, 30k? Only 30k? Lower than expected.)
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Old 20th January 2013, 07:35 AM   #908
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Originally Posted by annnnoid View Post
... [the same *********** argument stated the same *********** way but trying to appear different, because I ignore the data provided]
Is it just willful ignorance on the part of the antis? Suicide is a cultural issue, when have I ever stated otherwise? I have posted many times the stats showing suicide is higher in countries with strict gun laws. As you so helpfully pointed out, suicide is also lower in some countries with stricter gun laws. Maybe, just maybe, it's because there is no correlation between the number of guns and the number of suicides.

http://www.jhsph.edu/news/news-relea...r-suicide.html

In 2008, there was a marked increase in suicide. Firearms, as the method, went down, while poisoning and hanging went up. It is truly a foolish argument to think we will "save" any suicidal folks by banning guns, and I'm not sure why the gun grabbers can't see this. There are many methods to kill yourself http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_methods
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Old 20th January 2013, 07:46 AM   #909
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
for some reason, no comment from the gunaphiles here.
I have linked stories from a subreddit that grows by the day of defensive gun uses. This was dismissed as a silly source by the antis on this board.

Two news articles are posted about accidental discharges and we are expected to answer for the horrible injuries (all treated and released, so we don't know the extent of their injuries--OH THE HUMANITY!!!).

When will you start getting over your double standard?

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Old 20th January 2013, 08:04 AM   #910
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Originally Posted by triforcharity View Post
Wait, you think that because you made a claim via proxy, and I ask you to back it up, that's ridiculous??

Back up your claim. Post the numbers from all wars. Then the numbers from firearm deaths from the same time frame.

Get to work. You've got some homework of your OWN to do to back up your claim. Linking to someone else claiming it, isn't a citation of evidence.
The numbers and how they counted them are in that link. What is your objection to those numbers?

ETA. Now that's I'm on a keyboard I can type more. I'm not sure what you would constitute as good evidence, since we're just talking about numbers here, not even conclusions. I have very little confidence you'd accept anything I provided if you refuse to accept what Politifact did here.

Quote:
We found a comprehensive study of war-related deaths published by the Congressional Research Service on Feb. 26, 2010, and we supplemented that with data for deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan using the website icasualties.org. Where possible, we’ve used the broadest definition of "death" -- that is, all war-related deaths, not just those that occurred in combat.
Great, so there's your baseline for war related deaths, using the broadest definition, which skews towards your side. How much more do you need for that number beyond the CRS and icasualties.org?

Ok, so for gun deaths, you have this:

Quote:
The number of deaths from gunfire is a bit more complicated to total. Two Internet-accessible data sets from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention allow us to pin down the number of deaths from 1981 to 1998 and from 1999 to 2010. We’ve added FBI figures for 2011, and we offer a number for 1968 to 1980 using a conservative estimate of data we found in a graph in this 1994 paper published by the CDC.
Ok, so that seems pretty good, and probably a low figure, since they are not using the "broadest possible definition" on this side of the equation.


Quote:
We should note that these figures refer to all gun-fire related deaths -- not just homicides, but also suicides and accidental deaths. In 2011, about one-quarter of firearm-related deaths were homicides, according to FBI and CDC data. Using total firearm-related deaths makes the case against guns more dramatic than just using homicides alone.
I notice some posters quibble with this because they reject the idea that we use suicides by gun in the figures, but I don't see why we should do that at all. Suicides become easy when you have a gun lying around and accidental deaths are part of the case against guns in the home.

So in the end, you have these numbers:

Quote:
Since Shields’ comparison was otherwise accurate, with about 1.4 million firearm deaths to 1.2 million in war, we rated his claim True.
It's a staggering statistic and I completely understand why you want to pretend it's a lie.

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Old 20th January 2013, 08:12 AM   #911
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I'm a bit jaded about suicide. I've had friends and individuals I've known take that way out, firearms and otherwise, but living with the Golden Gate Bridge and the Southern Pacific RR tracks in close proximity puts the question into a different perspective.

It's a terrible thing to live through when it's your loved one or friend.

I honestly don't have any idea how to stop it other than direct intervention by family, friends or mental health professionals.

The methodology isn't the causation, it's the desperate despondent mental state of the individual in question.
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Old 20th January 2013, 08:51 AM   #912
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Originally Posted by shawmutt View Post
I have linked stories from a subreddit that grows by the day of defensive gun uses. This was dismissed as a silly source by the antis on this board.

Two news articles are posted about accidental discharges and we are expected to answer for the horrible injuries (all treated and released, so we don't know the extent of their injuries--OH THE HUMANITY!!!).

When will you start getting over your double standard?
you think accidental discharges at gun events are irrelevant? these ARE the responsible gun other FFS.
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Old 20th January 2013, 10:09 AM   #913
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
you think accidental discharges at gun events are irrelevant? these ARE the responsible gun other FFS.
Really? Only responsible guns owners go to gun shows? Proof please.
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Old 20th January 2013, 10:17 AM   #914
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
The numbers and how they counted them are in that link. What is your objection to those numbers?

ETA. Now that's I'm on a keyboard I can type more. I'm not sure what you would constitute as good evidence, since we're just talking about numbers here, not even conclusions. I have very little confidence you'd accept anything I provided if you refuse to accept what Politifact did here.



Great, so there's your baseline for war related deaths, using the broadest definition, which skews towards your side. How much more do you need for that number beyond the CRS and icasualties.org?

Ok, so for gun deaths, you have this:



Ok, so that seems pretty good, and probably a low figure, since they are not using the "broadest possible definition" on this side of the equation.




I notice some posters quibble with this because they reject the idea that we use suicides by gun in the figures, but I don't see why we should do that at all. Suicides become easy when you have a gun lying around and accidental deaths are part of the case against guns in the home.

So in the end, you have these numbers:



It's a staggering statistic and I completely understand why you want to pretend it's a lie.
I didn't say it was a lie, did I? I said to back up your claim. Finally, you've semi-backed it up.

I disagree with including suicides. Always have, and always will. Suicide is voluntary, and there is no guarantee that because a gun wasn't around, that another method wouldn't be used.

What I was actually asking for, was where the numbers came from. The Brady group? The FBI? DOJ? Where? I'd like to see the number for total gun deaths. Got it?
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Old 20th January 2013, 10:48 AM   #915
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Originally Posted by triforcharity View Post
I didn't say it was a lie, did I? I said to back up your claim. Finally, you've semi-backed it up.

I disagree with including suicides. Always have, and always will. Suicide is voluntary, and there is no guarantee that because a gun wasn't around, that another method wouldn't be used.

What I was actually asking for, was where the numbers came from. The Brady group? The FBI? DOJ? Where? I'd like to see the number for total gun deaths. Got it?
It's right in the link, and you seem to not be able to see it, even though I keep posting it.

Quote:
The number of deaths from gunfire is a bit more complicated to total. Two Internet-accessible data sets from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention allow us to pin down the number of deaths from 1981 to 1998 and from 1999 to 2010. We’ve added FBI figures for 2011, and we offer a number for 1968 to 1980 using a conservative estimate of data we found in a graph in this 1994 paper published by the CDC.
So, CDC and FBI provided those numbers.
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Old 20th January 2013, 12:55 PM   #916
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
you think accidental discharges at gun events are irrelevant? these ARE the responsible gun other FFS.
Out of the hundreds of thousands of people carrying firearms that day, including multiple gun shows, rallies like

Idaho: http://current.com/community/9402597...ee-weather.htm

Michigan: http://www.wilx.com/news/headlines/S...187553861.html

Oklahoma: http://okoca.org/event/guns-across-a...-voices-heard/

(PA is next week)

Not to mention hundreds of thousands of soldiers, police, and millions of concealed carry holders across the nation--

--and you come up with two stories about minor injuries due to accidental discharges?

You see, it's not about deaths to you. It's about guns. If it was about deaths, you'd be railing to get the 21st amendment repealed. You be moaning about how many people died in hospitals due to preventable infections. You'd be telling people to drive less, and slower. You are simply afraid of guns.
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Old 20th January 2013, 12:57 PM   #917
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Is about guns, yes. We can't stop death, it's a part of life.
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Old 20th January 2013, 01:03 PM   #918
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Originally Posted by Unabogie View Post
I notice some posters quibble with this because they reject the idea that we use suicides by gun in the figures, but I don't see why we should do that at all. Suicides become easy when you have a gun lying around and accidental deaths are part of the case against guns in the home.
It's not a quibble. You need to count the suicides in order to make your point. Countries manage to have suicide rates, without guns, far higher than the US. That is an indisputable fact. There are many methods of suicide besides guns. I don't see why suicide should count as a homicide.
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Old 20th January 2013, 01:05 PM   #919
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And suicide is a completely separate issue from murder in the sense that one is due to mental health problems, while the latter is a criminal justice matter. I mean, as I said before, someone could be stable enough to have a gun, but go through one bad day (divorce, losing job or house, etc.).
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Old 20th January 2013, 01:29 PM   #920
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
And suicide is a completely separate issue from murder in the sense that one is due to mental health problems, while the latter is a criminal justice matter. I mean, as I said before, someone could be stable enough to have a gun, but go through one bad day (divorce, losing job or house, etc.).
****'s sake. Have you been paying attention to the economy lately? The fact we've been sending our young folks to war for the past decade, some for years? People have had plenty of bad days. There is no sudden spate of suicides.

How hard is it to jump off a cliff? Tie a rope around a neck? Jump in front of a train? The way you guys talk sometimes it's like the gun possesses its owner and talks a person into suicide--like it's some kind of magical mystery suicide enabler. I had two buddies commit suicide, both by CO poisoning. Wasn't hard at all, turn on the car and go to sleep.
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