JREF Homepage Swift Blog Events Calendar $1 Million Paranormal Challenge The Amaz!ng Meeting Useful Links Support Us
James Randi Educational Foundation JREF Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   JREF Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
Click Here To Donate

Notices


Welcome to the JREF Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.

Reply
Old 18th January 2013, 06:28 PM   #41
Doubt
Philosopher
 
Doubt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 5,996
I wonder what definition of funeral is Jonesboy using?

My father had a funeral and was later cremated.

I have been to several funerals that did not involve cremation but the burials were deferred until later.
__________________
Doubt world tour locations:

Santiago, Chile, Aug. 18th to the Sept. 16th. Might get home before that.
Doubt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2013, 07:45 PM   #42
Elizabeth I
Olympic Equestrian Wannabe
 
Elizabeth I's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Defending the Alamo
Posts: 9,915
My stepfather was cremated, at his request. My mother, brother and I accompanied his body into the chamber where it was placed into the crematory. We did not receive the ashes because my mother had asked for burial to take place in the cemetery in her home town, several hundred miles away. The funeral home managed the transport. We had a memorial at home following the cremation.

My husband was cremated, also at his request. There was a delay between his death and his cremation because in the county where we live a cremation cannot take place until the doctor files the death certificate and the doctor, for some reason, didn't do so quickly. Additionally, we donated his corneas and that surgery had to take place first. The ashes were delivered to the cemetery, where we had a memorial ceremony. We couldn't wait for burial because, as a veteran, my husband was buried in a national cemetery and there are literally so many funerals - with the aging of the WWII, Korean War, and Vietnam War generations - that they are scheduled each hour and a half.

There are probably as many reasons for why funerals are conducted the way they are as there are funerals.
__________________

There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man. - Winston Churchill
Never wrestle with a pig - you just get dirty and the pig enjoys it.
My blog: Pardon me, may I ask...
Elizabeth I is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2013, 08:21 PM   #43
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 14,019
Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
I wonder what definition of funeral is Jonesboy using?

My father had a funeral and was later cremated.

I have been to several funerals that did not involve cremation but the burials were deferred until later.
It appears that Jonesboy has freshened up a few definitions and decided that demise is decay and a funeral is an interment.
__________________
Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding. (Samuel Johnson)

I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2013, 09:14 PM   #44
Loss Leader
Opinionated Jerk
Moderator
 
Loss Leader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 15,718
Well, whatever the heck the OP is talking about, it has very little to do with Jewish funerals. Not only do we watch the coffin being lowered into the ground, but one is not supposed to leave until the entire coffin is obscured by dirt. In fact, it's an honor to help shovel. I physically shoveled dirt onto the caskets of both my grandfathers.
__________________
"I recognize the problem ... but I was sort of hoping that no one would consider the issue important enough to bring up." Jabba


Follow me on Twitter! @LossLeader
Loss Leader is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2013, 12:26 AM   #45
Graham2001
Muse
 
Graham2001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 746
Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
That doesn't happen in crematoria here in Belgium. Either the body is cremated on the day before the service and the urn is present during the service, or the coffin and body are cremated straight away and you get the urn with the ashes to take home with you. The latter is what happened when my wife died.
According to my mother after her mother (My grandmother) was cremated she was given a cardboard box containg the ashes inside a paper bag.

She still has not gotten over it.
__________________
"I need hard facts! Bring in the dowsers!"
'America Unearthed' Season 1, Episode 13: Hunt for the Holy Grail

Everybody gets it wrong sometimes...
Graham2001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2013, 03:14 AM   #46
catsmate1
Penultimate Amazing
 
catsmate1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Dublin (the one in Ireland)
Posts: 11,355
Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
I'm leaving my body to Antwerp university for medical students to practice on. It will save my relatives the exorbitant cost of a funeral. Does that count as dumping?
Good for you, I've also opted for this. But how will they dispose of your remains after they've finished with them? Here cremation/incineration is standard.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2013, 03:16 AM   #47
dafydd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: On the Flanders/Nederland border.
Posts: 35,445
Originally Posted by catsmate1 View Post
Good for you, I've also opted for this. But how will they dispose of your remains after they've finished with them? Here cremation/incineration is standard.
Incineration, or sell me to a kebab shop.
dafydd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2013, 04:31 AM   #48
Lukraak_Sisser
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,981
I must admit that I'm still a little confused as to what the actual point of the OP even is.

A funeral service followed by a cremation is not a *real* funeral?
Does it really matter how quickly the body is reduced to CO2 and water and wether this is done via (micro)organisms or fire?
Also, what about the practice of digging up older graves to make room for the newer dead?
Lukraak_Sisser is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2013, 06:53 AM   #49
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 14,019
Back when I was a kid, a friend who had been a pretty prominent doctor in his day left his body to medical science when he discovered he was dying. He said "I've taught at Chicago and Johns Hopkins, and now I'll get to teach at Yale."
__________________
Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding. (Samuel Johnson)

I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2013, 07:42 AM   #50
Pup
Illuminator
 
Pup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 4,586
Interesting to know that watching or participating in filling in the grave is part of graveside services in some cultures/areas/customs. Not something common at all where I'm familiar, though admittedly I rarely attend funerals; my knowledge is more from noticing gravediggers doing their work alone.

Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
According to my mother after her mother (My grandmother) was cremated she was given a cardboard box containg the ashes inside a paper bag.

She still has not gotten over it.
I was given my mother's ashes in a plastic bag inside an opaque plastic box, since we were just going to sprinkle them. Not sure what the problem would be? Urns or fancier containers cost money, so I'd consider it a plus that the funeral home didn't automatically charge for one without getting her approval.
Pup is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2013, 08:31 AM   #51
ehcks
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,735
Even if true, so?

If a relative wants their body cremated and I don't want the ashes, why would I care when it happens? Every crematorium I've ever heard of does it before the service, but if they didn't, why should I care?
__________________
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor
ehcks is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2013, 08:45 AM   #52
Femke
Goddess of the Glowing Sunsets
 
Femke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 617
Originally Posted by catsmate1 View Post
Good for you, I've also opted for this. But how will they dispose of your remains after they've finished with them? Here cremation/incineration is standard.
I've opted for 'remove as many bits as you can reuse, a well-catered party with a closed coffin, and cremation'.
The medical faculty option is a very honourable one.
__________________
Epiphanette (a very small epiphany): that kind of tingly, excited feeling of realizing that you were wrong, and that you have to adjust your world view accordingly. - With thanks to Weak Kitten and Blue Sock Monkey.

I am 100% confident all professional psychics and mediums are frauds. The rest might be sincere but are still deluded.
Femke is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2013, 09:03 AM   #53
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 37,868
Hmmm. When my mother died, we had a church service with the coffin in the church. Because it was quite a long way (including a ferry ride) to the town where she was to be buried (where my father had been buried over 20 years previously), that was deferred till the following day.

The next day we drove to the cemetery and had a service at the graveside. For the first time ever, I "took a cord", that is symbolically lowered the coffin into the grave. In fact the weight of the coffin is taken by undertaker's assistants with webbing straps and the cords are mostly decorative. There is a strict order of who takes the cords, and traditionally only the male relatives participate. I remember sorting out the list for my father's funeral while everyone was waiting to board the ferry. There were eight eligible male relatives, so neither I nor my mother participated.

Twenty years on, the "men only" thing is eroding more and more. It used to be that women didn't even go to the graveside! And we didn't have eight male relatives in attendance anyway. The minister urged me to take the no. 1 cord, and I made out the list for the other seven, including three of my mother's nieces.

Interesting to realise this was all a hallucination!

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2013, 09:33 AM   #54
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 13,961
A somewhat interesting article appeared in the London Review of Books last issue, which reviewed a Victorian book that had long been out-of-print about how to avoid being buried alive called "Premature Burial: How It May Be Prevented". Somewhat surprisingly for the LRB it mostly debunked a lot of the many stories of people being accidentally interred prematurely, saying that while it can happen a lot of the "cases" of bodies having shifted position in the coffin and bloodied fingernails can better be explained by the corpse being rolled around whilst lowered into the grave or rats gnawing at the fingers.

Unfortunately you have to be a subscriber to read the whole thing:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v35/n01/deborah-friedell/in-a-box

And the book itself:

http://www.amazon.com/Premature-Buri.../dp/1843913801

And the debunking book:

http://www.amazon.com/Buried-Alive-T...st+Primal+Fear
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2013, 10:31 AM   #55
Visual Purple
Thinker
 
Visual Purple's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 164
I've been to all sorts of funerals and memorials. Ash spreading is by far the most visceral and physical act in my experience of any that are common at western funerals. There's the surprisingly large bag of ashes. There are obvious little bits of bone---the large ones are removed or ground. The stuff sticks on hands and often gets in eyes. Compare that to an old-style open-casket funeral with a prettified corpse. I don't think that the ash spreading is any kind of avoiding reality.
Visual Purple is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2013, 11:32 AM   #56
fuelair
Cythraul Enfys
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 35,652
Originally Posted by Mister Earl View Post
Truth-by-proclimation again, I see.
Hey, as good in death stuff as he is in science. The important thing is he is on a steady course!!!
__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Wash this space!

We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2013, 04:41 PM   #57
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 14,019
Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Hey, as good in death stuff as he is in science. The important thing is he is on a steady course!!!
All you have to do is make up your definitions as you go along. The communicating advantage is obvious. Unique definitions make all the wisdom the old ones implied wrong, the genius dong the talking knows just what it's about, and everyone else is obviously an idiot for not getting it, thus giving every thread three topics instead of only one. Insofar as it's possible to pat oneself on the back, one could congratulate oneself on the compactness of it all, but unless one has mastered zen the applause will be faint.
__________________
Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding. (Samuel Johnson)

I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2013, 06:35 PM   #58
commandlinegamer
Philosopher
 
commandlinegamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Mazes of Menace
Posts: 7,092
I'm sure there are more pointless threads than this one, but I don't really visit Conspiracy Theories very often.
__________________
He bade me take any rug in the house.
commandlinegamer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2013, 06:47 PM   #59
fuelair
Cythraul Enfys
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 35,652
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
All you have to do is make up your definitions as you go along. The communicating advantage is obvious. Unique definitions make all the wisdom the old ones implied wrong, the genius dong the talking knows just what it's about, and everyone else is obviously an idiot for not getting it, thus giving every thread three topics instead of only one. Insofar as it's possible to pat oneself on the back, one could congratulate oneself on the compactness of it all, but unless one has mastered zen the applause will be faint.
Amazingly, that is also the problem I have with philosopy (and more, certain "philosophers" on the threads). Anytime you get to make up and use your own definitions everything just turns to feces!!!
__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Wash this space!

We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!

Last edited by fuelair; 20th January 2013 at 06:48 PM.
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2013, 08:41 AM   #60
P.J. Denyer
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,347
Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
What are ''refridgeration'' and ''Creamtion''? What is wrong with the method of cremation that you describe? Another pointless thread from you. Would you prefer it if the family had a barbecue over the burning body?

It's the lack of marshmallows that's so insulting.....
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2013, 10:02 AM   #61
dafydd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: On the Flanders/Nederland border.
Posts: 35,445
Thread abandoned by Jonesboy.
dafydd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2013, 11:04 AM   #62
Spindrift
My little friend is back!
 
Spindrift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Right here!
Posts: 12,378
Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Thread abandoned by Jonesboy.
My guess is that he is just striving for a Stundie award and will continue to make up these inane threads until he wins.
__________________
I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau
A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black.
Spindrift is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd January 2013, 04:00 AM   #63
Multivac
Master Poster
 
Multivac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,125
Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Incineration, or sell me to a kebab shop.
Multivac is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd January 2013, 05:44 AM   #64
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Detroit suburbs
Posts: 11,751
I've only attended one funeral for someone who was cremated. The cremation was performed the night before the ceremony.
__________________
Dave

"Mead is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -very similar to something said by Ben Franklin
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd January 2013, 07:55 AM   #65
Mark6
Philosopher
 
Mark6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,076
First, the assertion part of OP is a load of bollocks.

Second, even if it were true, why is it a bad thing?

Or is it a good thing? Jonesboy seems to feel kind of strongly about funerals, but is not at all clear what exactly he approves or disapproves of.

I'd go with Stundie.
__________________
Gamemaster: "A horde of rotting zombies is shambling toward you. The sign over the door says 'Accounting'"
Mark6 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th January 2013, 05:53 PM   #66
GT/CS
Illuminator
 
GT/CS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,264
Actually, the traditional Western funeral IS dying but not in the manner expressed in the OP.

Funerals are now becoming celebrations of life. The company I work for is removing the pews in our chapels and replacing them with tables and chairs for dining and celebrating. We are also installing screens and TVs and other A/V equipment so we can play videos and show pictures of the deceased during the celebration. We are also removing the casket selection rooms and turning them into celebration rooms.

With this new attitude about funerals many people who would have just ordered a cremation then gone home are now also celebrating the person's life with a funeral celebration.

Soon there will be little difference between a funeral and a wedding receptiion so in a way the banned member who created this thread was correct but for the wrong reason.
__________________
SweatyYeti or Bill Munns would be my vote for looking at this - BFSleuth @ BFF
I've got plenty of common sense! I just choose to ignore it. - Calvin; October 15, 1986

Last edited by GT/CS; 30th January 2013 at 05:57 PM.
GT/CS is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

JREF Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:34 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2001-2013, James Randi Educational Foundation. All Rights Reserved.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.