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Old 26th January 2013, 06:03 PM   #2961
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Originally Posted by showmevegas View Post
Where would one ask to see a seer stone?
Hogwarts?
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Old 26th January 2013, 06:05 PM   #2962
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Originally Posted by Pup View Post
The difference between American slang and Australian slang produces an unusual mental image in that sentence.


Oops.

While that is kind of funny, I hope I haven't offended anyone and of course I intended spook to mean ghost.

I imagine that second link of yours would present all kinds of problems for Janadele. I wonder if a non-preachy response will be forthcoming.

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Old 26th January 2013, 06:17 PM   #2963
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Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
Oops.

While that is kind of funny, I hope I haven't offended anyone and of course I intended spook to mean ghost.

Fear not. It was clear from context which meaning you meant for spook (although it was a delightfully amusing word choice).
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Old 26th January 2013, 06:22 PM   #2964
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Originally Posted by showmevegas View Post
Where would one ask to see a seer stone?
Where would a seer see a seer's stone if a seer's stone could be seen? At the seer's scene.
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Old 26th January 2013, 06:36 PM   #2965
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Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
While that is kind of funny, I hope I haven't offended anyone and of course I intended spook to mean ghost.
It also does means ghost in the U.S., and I figure most folks obviously realized it was an unintended example of how the colonies have diverged over the years.
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Old 26th January 2013, 06:54 PM   #2966
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
That's absurd, A.) We are told that the plates and urim and thummim were taken to heaven by an angel. B.) I don't know for a fact that the Church doesn't have some effects in their vault to prove the church true but that doesn't change the FACT that the Mormon Church, if it had them, does not show them so you STILL have to take it on faith just as you would the guy on the corner.
So, the truth comes out. In Post 2928 you post a quote by showmevegas in which he/she asks if the church has "any [emphasis added] physical items related [emphasis added] to Joseph Smiths interpreting the golden tablets--hat, sheet, seer stones, tablets or portions thereof."

You answered NO, with no qualification whatsoever. I asked you to prove it. . .to name a source. Obviously, you cannot, which is yet another instance in which you pass off your biased opinion as fact. Here (above) you find yourself eating crow; i.e., "I don't know for a fact that the Church doesn't have some effects in their vault to prove the church is true. . . ."

Revealing, to say the least.

Quote:
: skyrider, while I have your attention, you will admit that blacks were not allowed the priesthood until 1979, right?
I assume you weren't born yesterday.
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Old 26th January 2013, 06:57 PM   #2967
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semantic nonsense

if you have evidence for the existence of these artifacts, present it. Or else admit that they don't exist. the null hypothesis is that they do not exist. You claim they do, burden of proof lies with you.
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Old 26th January 2013, 07:11 PM   #2968
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
You are using yourself as a source? Sorry but that simply will not due.
Amusing. A while back you were defending your "right" to use yourself as a source--a practice you continue to this day. Uh, that simply will not do.
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Old 26th January 2013, 07:12 PM   #2969
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Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post
So, the truth comes out....

Give it a rest. You style of debate by irrelevant quibble is tiresome and not helping build your case at all.

How about we return to an open topic: Were Brigham Young's racist comments while LDS Prophet the holy scripture for a while? Did the Church ever admit Young's racist remarks were wrong?
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Old 26th January 2013, 07:17 PM   #2970
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Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
semantic nonsense

if you have evidence for the existence of these artifacts, present it. Or else admit that they don't exist. the null hypothesis is that they do not exist. You claim they do, burden of proof lies with you.
You have it backwards, StankApe. The burden of proof lies with he who made the claim. Because he could not provide that proof, he had to admit that he had, ah, er, uh misspoken.
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Old 26th January 2013, 07:22 PM   #2971
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He can't prove a negative. He can't prove no artifacts exist. It's an impossible task.


The null hypothesis is there are no artifacts that prove Joseph Smith's story. I would love to see any evidence to the contrary.
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Old 26th January 2013, 07:24 PM   #2972
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Originally Posted by jsfisher View Post
Give it a rest. You style of debate by irrelevant quibble is tiresome and not helping build your case at all.

How about we return to an open topic: Were Brigham Young's racist comments while LDS Prophet the holy scripture for a while? Did the Church ever admit Young's racist remarks were wrong?
Not at all happy, are you, with the fact that one of your chief spokespersons got caught trying to pass off his opinion as fact? (It's a habit with him.) There is nothing irrelevant about misrepresenting information in debate.
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Old 26th January 2013, 07:29 PM   #2973
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I thought people caught up in the spirit of Jesus were all happy and jolly
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Old 26th January 2013, 07:29 PM   #2974
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Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
He can't prove a negative. He can't prove no artifacts exist. It's an impossible task.
Then perhaps he should have chosen his response more carefully.

Spin it as you will, he tried to posit his opinion as fact.
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Old 26th January 2013, 07:31 PM   #2975
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He doesn't have to prove a NO, you have to prove a YES.

That's how this works, how it has always worked.

don't like it? give up your silly religion or don't post on this forum.
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Old 26th January 2013, 07:31 PM   #2976
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Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post
Not at all happy, are you, with the fact that one of your chief spokespersons got caught trying to pass off his opinion as fact? (It's a habit with him.) There is nothing irrelevant about misrepresenting information in debate.
So, you continue with irrelevance. My happiness, which you completely misjudge -- oh, wait! that was an unqualified opinion of yours, wasn't it? Double standard much? -- is not at all important to the question of Brigham Young's racist statements.

Care to stay on that topic, or will you continue to evade?
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Old 26th January 2013, 07:31 PM   #2977
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Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post
You have it backwards, StankApe. The burden of proof lies with he who made the claim. Because he could not provide that proof, he had to admit that he had, ah, er, uh misspoken.
Okay; let's assume RandFan mispoke.

Now. What are those artifacts? Where are they? How can we see them? Have any of them been declared authentic by professionals outside the church? Do they still function today?
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Old 26th January 2013, 07:40 PM   #2978
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Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post
So, the truth comes out. In Post 2928 you post a quote by showmevegas in which he/she asks if the church has "any [emphasis added] physical items related [emphasis added] to Joseph Smiths interpreting the golden tablets--hat, sheet, seer stones, tablets or portions thereof."

You answered NO, with no qualification whatsoever. I asked you to prove it. . .to name a source. Obviously, you cannot, which is yet another instance in which you pass off your biased opinion as fact. Here (above) you find yourself eating crow; i.e., "I don't know for a fact that the Church doesn't have some effects in their vault to prove the church is true. . . ."

Revealing, to say the least.
It was an assumption. A reasonable one. You called me on it and I honestly admitted that I could not prove that there were no artifacts. That's called honesty.

Quote:
I assume you weren't born yesterday.
I'm going to take that as a yes, Janadele says that blacks could hold the priesthood prior to 1978. According to her it was only "Negros" that were denied the priesthood. So, we have Cat and you that says "yes" and Janadele that says no. Do you think Janadele is lying?
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Old 26th January 2013, 07:42 PM   #2979
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Originally Posted by Pup View Post
It also does means ghost in the U.S., and I figure most folks obviously realized it was an unintended example of how the colonies have diverged over the years.
I'd forgotten about the racist connotation for "spook". It wasn't one of the more popular racial epithets where I grew up. Other than ghosts, I generally associate the word with slang for a CIA agent or other spy.
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Old 26th January 2013, 07:45 PM   #2980
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Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
He can't prove a negative. He can't prove no artifacts exist. It's an impossible task.


The null hypothesis is there are no artifacts that prove Joseph Smith's story. I would love to see any evidence to the contrary.
There's a '67 Dodge Dart orbiting a star in M31. Your inability to prove that it isn't there adds weight to my claim.
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Old 26th January 2013, 07:46 PM   #2981
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Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post
Amusing. A while back you were defending your "right" to use yourself as a source--a practice you continue to this day. Uh, that simply will not do.
When it comes to my opinion I am my own source. Janadele is making an empirical claim about what is Mormon doctrine and not simply stating an opinion.
  • Empirical claims need sources.
  • Opinions do not need sources.
Are we clear?
  • Janadele made an emperial claim.
  • The posts you are talking about where I expressed an opinion I was expressing an opinion.
Do you see the difference yet? Empirical vs Opinion?
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Old 26th January 2013, 07:49 PM   #2982
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
Janadele says that blacks could hold the priesthood prior to 1978. According to her it was only "Negros" that were denied the priesthood. So, we have Cat and you that says "yes" and Janadele that says no. Do you think Janadele is lying?

Just to avoid a technical quibble, I believe before Brigham Young's reign of racism the Church admitted at least a few blacks (and Negros) into the priesthood. So, it is only from then until 1978 that should be under consideration.
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Old 26th January 2013, 07:49 PM   #2983
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Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post
You have it backwards, StankApe. The burden of proof lies with he who made the claim. Because he could not provide that proof, he had to admit that he had, ah, er, uh misspoken.
It's called honesty. Look into it. The claim was reasonable but I'm happy to admit that I do not know.

How much do you want to milk this out?
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Old 26th January 2013, 07:49 PM   #2984
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Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post
Not at all happy, are you, with the fact that one of your chief spokespersons got caught trying to pass off his opinion as fact? (It's a habit with him.) [...].

You do it too. Remember your remarks about science as a god?


Nice try, though.
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Old 26th January 2013, 07:51 PM   #2985
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Originally Posted by jsfisher View Post
Just to avoid a technical quibble, I believe before Brigham Young's reign of racism the Church admitted at least a few blacks (and Negros) into the priesthood. So, it is only from then until 1978 that should be under consideration.
Good catch. You are correct.
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I think I'll reroute my trip
I wonder if they'd think I'd flipped.
If I went to LA, via Omaha.
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Old 26th January 2013, 07:54 PM   #2986
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
It's called honesty. Look into it. The claim was reasonable but I'm happy to admit that I do not know.

How much do you want to milk this out?
I have yet to see skyrider44 admit that faith plays no part in the practice of the scientific method.
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Old 26th January 2013, 07:56 PM   #2987
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
Good catch. You are correct.
This article is interesting.

And it's important to remember that even many abolitionists did not regard Africans as being intellectually or morally equal to Europeans. Many were outraged by the cruelty of slavery, but still balked at the notion of a "black" man marrying a "white" woman.
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Last edited by Foster Zygote; 26th January 2013 at 07:59 PM.
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Old 26th January 2013, 07:58 PM   #2988
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Originally Posted by skyrider44 View Post
Then perhaps he should have chosen his response more carefully.

Spin it as you will, he tried to posit his opinion as fact.
It was not my intent to mislead. When confronted with it I corrected it. Now about those artifacts? BTW: Don't forget to call Janadele out for her dishonesty in claiming that blacks could always hold the priesthood, it was only Negros that couldn't. She has been given many opportunities to correct the record but she refuses.
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I wonder if they'd think I'd flipped.
If I went to LA, via Omaha.
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Old 26th January 2013, 08:02 PM   #2989
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I know a few black folks who would be very interested to hear what the difference is between a black person and a negro.

Is negro a subset of being black?
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Old 26th January 2013, 08:02 PM   #2990
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
I have yet to see skyrider44 admit that faith plays no part in the practice of the scientific method.
What's odd is that this is a bizarre ad hominem. As if attacking me will make Mormonism true.
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I wonder if they'd think I'd flipped.
If I went to LA, via Omaha.
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Old 26th January 2013, 08:05 PM   #2991
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Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
I know a few black folks who would be very interested to hear what the difference is between a black person and a negro.

Is negro a subset of being black?

Janadele won't tell us.
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Old 26th January 2013, 08:06 PM   #2992
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
What's odd is that this is a bizarre ad hominem. As if attacking me will make Mormonism true.
Isn't this always the way with the logic challenged?
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Old 26th January 2013, 08:13 PM   #2993
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Well, I'm completely puzzled. Skyrider44 seems to be stalling at providing any evidence of existing artifacts, yet all he would need to do is point out that Jomante already provided a nice link in post #2959.

Jomante's link:

http://mormonthink.com/transbomweb.htm

The link below goes more directly to the relevant part:
http://mormonthink.com/transbomweb.htm#whereisthe

it has all kinds of good information, including:
Quote:
This seer stone is now kept in the First Presidency's private vault (SOURCES: Roberts 1930, 6:231n; J. F. Smith 1954a, 3:225; McConkie 1966, 818; Joseph Anderson 1971).
I googled a bit more on the illustration of the stone at the top of the page, and it seems to be another seer stone that passed down through Philo Dibble (what a name that poor fellow had to live with). There's more about it, and another stone here:

http://seerstone.blogspot.com/2006/0...er-stones.html

I can't vouch for the accuracy of any of that information; haven't done more than just googled around for links. But it certainly gives a lot of provenances, names, sources, etc. to dig into and look through (pun intended ), if one wants.
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Old 26th January 2013, 08:14 PM   #2994
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Isn't this always the way with the logic challenged?
The subject at hand was whether or not heavenly mother was Mormon doctrine. So the ad hominem would normally be to attack my position on that proposition, the proposition at hand. But he has not staked out a position on that.
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I think I'll reroute my trip
I wonder if they'd think I'd flipped.
If I went to LA, via Omaha.
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Old 26th January 2013, 08:20 PM   #2995
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Originally Posted by Pup View Post
Well, I'm completely puzzled. Skyrider44 seems to be stalling at providing any evidence of existing artifacts, yet all he would need to do is point out that Jomante already provided a nice link in post #2959.

Jomante's link:

http://mormonthink.com/transbomweb.htm

The link below goes more directly to the relevant part:
http://mormonthink.com/transbomweb.htm#whereisthe

it has all kinds of good information, including:


I googled a bit more on the illustration of the stone at the top of the page, and it seems to be another seer stone that passed down through Philo Dibble (what a name that poor fellow had to live with). There's more about it, and another stone here:

http://seerstone.blogspot.com/2006/0...er-stones.html

I can't vouch for the accuracy of any of that information; haven't done more than just googled around for links. But it certainly gives a lot of provenances, names, sources, etc. to dig into and look through (pun intended ), if one wants.
But the seer stone predates the first vision. The Urim and Thummim were taken by the angel with the plates, IIRC. There was nothing particularly special about that stone. It wasn't handed down from god and, AFAIK, it has never been shown to have any magical properties.
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I think I'll reroute my trip
I wonder if they'd think I'd flipped.
If I went to LA, via Omaha.
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Old 26th January 2013, 08:23 PM   #2996
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Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
I know a few black folks who would be very interested to hear what the difference is between a black person and a negro.

Is negro a subset of being black?
All we know so far is that negroes are from Africa, but not all Africans are negroes. Also, negroes apparently know that they are negroes.
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Old 26th January 2013, 08:28 PM   #2997
StankApe
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So, if the world was Django Unchained, would Django just be of African descent, but Stephen was a negro? or do I have this backwards?

are the mandingo fighters negros?


this is very confusing
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Old 26th January 2013, 08:30 PM   #2998
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
All we know so far is that negroes are from Africa, but not all Africans are negroes. Also, negroes apparently know that they are negroes.
Also, Mormon leaders have the magical power to figure out who has even a drop of black blood.
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If I went to LA, via Omaha.
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Old 26th January 2013, 08:33 PM   #2999
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
But the seer stone predates the first vision. The Urim and Thummim were taken by the angel with the plates, IIRC. There was nothing particularly special about that stone. It wasn't handed down from god and, AFAIK, it has never been shown to have any magical properties.
Not sure it's that clear-cut (well, except for the last sentence; I think that's true of just about anything ).

From a FAIR wiki post a couple of clicks off of Jomante's link:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smit...on_translation

The article title kinda sums it up: "Why did Joseph use the same stone for translating the Book of Mormon that he used for 'money digging'?"

Edited to add: I haven't read all the stuff in enough detail to figure out if any of the seer stones that survive are supposed to have been the same ones used at the time Smith was translating the Book of Mormon, but it does address the "vault" discussion from a few posts back and I suspect it's the kind of stuff that Skyrider was coyly hinting at.

Last edited by Pup; 26th January 2013 at 08:38 PM.
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Old 26th January 2013, 08:42 PM   #3000
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Originally Posted by Pup View Post
Not sure it's that clear-cut (well, except for the last sentence; I think that's true of just about anything ).

From a FAIR wiki post a couple of clicks off of Jomante's link:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smit...on_translation

The article title kinda sums it up: "Why did Joseph use the same stone for translating the Book of Mormon that he used for 'money digging'?"

Edited to add: I haven't read all the stuff in enough detail to figure out if any of the seer stones that survive are supposed to have been the same ones used at the time Smith was translating the Book of Mormon, but it does address the "vault" discussion from a few posts back and I suspect it's the kind of stuff that Skyrider was coyly hinting at.
Thanks.
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Ego, ain't it a bitch?

I think I'll reroute my trip
I wonder if they'd think I'd flipped.
If I went to LA, via Omaha.
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