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Old 25th January 2013, 07:51 AM   #1
fitzgibbon
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He! Let's build apartments on an important battlefield!

The older I get, the more I think Douglas Adams was on to something with:

"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."

To US JREFers, if some level of government proposed building apartments on part of the site of the Battle of Gettysburg, would you think those politicians should have their heads handed to them on a plate? Because here in Canada in the midst of the bicentennial of a war seminal to the origins of our country, something tantamount to the same is being proposed and I just can't begin to get my head around such myopia.

In Niagara Falls, Ontario a school that was built on the site of the Battle of Lundy's Lane (one of the bloodiest and most-hard-fought battles in the War of 1812 North American edition) closed and the city has acquired the property. The property borders Drummond Hill Cemetery which marks the battle's main focus. Now am I stupid or maybe just dense thinking that this would represent a golden opportunity to preserve a small-but-important piece of Canadian history that's otherwise surrounded by housing developments and tourist traps?

http://bit.ly/Lundys_Lane_lost

Fitz
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Old 25th January 2013, 08:02 AM   #2
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It does some quite odd. Perhaps a little bit of money slid under the table somewhere?
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Old 25th January 2013, 08:16 AM   #3
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If it was in the UK, we'd have built a supermarket on it by now
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Old 25th January 2013, 08:22 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by fitzgibbon View Post

To US JREFers, if some level of government proposed building apartments on part of the site of the Battle of Gettysburg, would you think those politicians should have their heads handed to them on a plate? Because here in Canada in the midst of the bicentennial of a war seminal to the origins of our country, something tantamount to the same is being proposed and I just can't begin to get my head around such myopia.
Disney wanted to build a theme park near Gettysburg. It took quite a bit of effort by people from all parts of the US to get them to drop the plan. They were going to have civil war themed things at the park.

Good luck trying to stop businesses with no respect for history.
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Old 25th January 2013, 09:10 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Hubert Cumberdale View Post
If it was in the UK, we'd have built a supermarket on it by now
Perhaps but in fairness if you weren't going to build on battlefields in the UK your options would be limited.
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Old 25th January 2013, 09:16 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by fitzgibbon View Post
The older I get, the more I think Douglas Adams was on to something with:

"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."

To US JREFers, if some level of government proposed building apartments on part of the site of the Battle of Gettysburg, would you think those politicians should have their heads handed to them on a plate? Because here in Canada in the midst of the bicentennial of a war seminal to the origins of our country, something tantamount to the same is being proposed and I just can't begin to get my head around such myopia.

In Niagara Falls, Ontario a school that was built on the site of the Battle of Lundy's Lane (one of the bloodiest and most-hard-fought battles in the War of 1812 North American edition) closed and the city has acquired the property. The property borders Drummond Hill Cemetery which marks the battle's main focus. Now am I stupid or maybe just dense thinking that this would represent a golden opportunity to preserve a small-but-important piece of Canadian history that's otherwise surrounded by housing developments and tourist traps?

http://bit.ly/Lundys_Lane_lost

Fitz
This happens too a lot of historic areas. If you knew Atlanta Ga like I knew Atlanta in the 40's 50's and 60's and were to se the city as it is today youd see skyscrapers where grand old Victorian homes used to be. The few historic buildings left usually angered the developers who ignore the history and want to build something else there.

There are buildings from the 40's which are abandoned and in such a decrepit state that Vampire and apocalypse moves are made there. They should tear those buildings down and build the skyscrapers alone.
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Old 25th January 2013, 09:19 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by fitzgibbon View Post
In Niagara Falls, Ontario a school that was built on the site of the Battle of Lundy's Lane (one of the bloodiest and most-hard-fought battles in the War of 1812 North American edition) closed and the city has acquired the property. The property borders Drummond Hill Cemetery which marks the battle's main focus. Now am I stupid or maybe just dense thinking that this would represent a golden opportunity to preserve a small-but-important piece of Canadian history that's otherwise surrounded by housing developments and tourist traps?
The landscape appears to have already been significantly altered so at this point there is little point in worrying about it.

To be honest battlefields are generally only worth preserving if they were preserved from day 1. Heh we lost (and in we weren't sure where it happened) the location of the Battle of Bosworth Field for a fairly long period.
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Old 25th January 2013, 09:25 AM   #8
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Can someone explain to me why it is important to preserve the physical site of battles? What exactly is lost when the land is used for something else?
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Old 25th January 2013, 09:37 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by AvalonXQ View Post
Can someone explain to me why it is important to preserve the physical site of battles? What exactly is lost when the land is used for something else?
What you lose is an important resource for studying what happened. History books alone don't convey everything. They are monuments to the past.

Some have been recreated. But that is not always possible and archaeological data can be lost when sites are not preserved.

A better question would be what should be the criteria for which sites are preserved and which to let go? Not every site can be saved and some just are not that important.

One of the better re-created sites I have been to is the Cowpens battlefield. I learned a lot from standing on the hill where Danial Morgan deployed hist troops against the British. Seeing the rise of the slope and looking at relative positions of the opposing sides can be a better educational tool than words printed in a book.
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Old 25th January 2013, 09:40 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by AvalonXQ View Post
Can someone explain to me why it is important to preserve the physical site of battles? What exactly is lost when the land is used for something else?
Well in some cases archaeological evidence.

However less practically battlefields are closely tied into national identity. By preserving them and building monuments on them people say "what happened here was important".

Gettysburg for example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hi...attlefield.jpg

Leipzig
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Völkerschlachtdenkmal

Waterloo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...tlefield_today

Naseby

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Th...20,04,2007.JPG

One of the reasons that serbia wanted to hold onto Kosovo is that the Battle of Kosovo is closely tied in with serb national identity.
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Old 25th January 2013, 09:55 AM   #11
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I still can't believe that they allow development on the island of Britain, have they no respect for the lives lost in the Battle of Britain?
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Old 25th January 2013, 09:58 AM   #12
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Europe would be pretty much empty if we didn't develop on them
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Old 25th January 2013, 10:00 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
Disney wanted to build a theme park near Gettysburg. It took quite a bit of effort by people from all parts of the US to get them to drop the plan. They were going to have civil war themed things at the park.

Good luck trying to stop businesses with no respect for history.
I was looking forward to the ride where you got to beat the slaves.
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Old 25th January 2013, 10:06 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by AvalonXQ View Post
Can someone explain to me why it is important to preserve the physical site of battles? What exactly is lost when the land is used for something else?
Especially when that has already happened!


There was already a school built there - so why on earth is it only a problem now?
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Old 25th January 2013, 10:28 AM   #15
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From reading the article, it seems that this particular section of the battlefield has already been despoiled by the school, so I question how much worse the apartment complex would be. Also, if I understood the article correctly, the plan is to preserve about half of the land in question. Often preservationists in the US have to accept "half a loaf is better than none" in disputes with would-be developers.

I'm also not certain that Gettysburg is the best analogy in this case; I'd characterize the Plains of Abraham as Canada's Gettysburg. In terms of preserving battlefields in the US, there are two categories: Gettysburg, and all others. Gettysburg was the largest and bloodiest battle ever fought in North America; it was the only significant battle fought in a Free state, and Pickett's charge became one of the foundations of the romanticized myth of the South's Lost Cause. And, of course, Lincoln memorialized the battle for all time with his Gettysburg Address.

Lundy's Lane is more like Antietam, IMO. Both battles were tactical draws with heavy casualties on both sides, which forced the numerically inferior invaders to retreat. Antietam is strongly connected with the Emancipation Proclamation, but few Americans are aware of this.

This is not to say that there is no push-back against encroachment of development on other battlefields, but generally it's mainly from historians and American Civil War buffs. Any threat to Gettysburg is almost certain to provoke a much stronger backlash from the general public.
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Old 25th January 2013, 11:01 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by fitzgibbon View Post
To US JREFers, if some level of government proposed building apartments on part of the site of the Battle of Gettysburg, would you think those politicians should have their heads handed to them on a plate?
Depends which part. The "battle" spanned three days and consisted of several distinct clashes in a number of different places.

What part of the field is significant? Little Round Top? Cemetery Ridge? The unfinished railroad? The peach orchard?

And how significant are they, really? At a certain point, don't the living have a right to get on with their lives and re-purpose the land for something other than further memorializing long-ago violence and bloodshed?

There's already a monument at Gettysburg. How much more do you need, before it becomes an unhealthy fetish?

Quote:
In Niagara Falls, Ontario a school that was built on the site of the Battle of Lundy's Lane (one of the bloodiest and most-hard-fought battles in the War of 1812 North American edition) closed and the city has acquired the property. The property borders Drummond Hill Cemetery which marks the battle's main focus. Now am I stupid or maybe just dense thinking that this would represent a golden opportunity to preserve a small-but-important piece of Canadian history that's otherwise surrounded by housing developments and tourist traps?
Why is it important and worth preserving?

What value is there in the place, besides as a good location to put housing? Surely people in Ontario would like places to live?

I half think that the best thing to be done with old battlefields is to promptly turn them to some purpose other than war.

Seriously, what do you think is the problem, here? Say they put up some apartments, and put a plaque on the facade, so that interested passerby can see that yes, this apartment block was built on the site of part of a bloody battle. Would anybody reading the plaque think, "it sure is a shame that they didn't leave this lot vacant, so that we could come here and stare at the ground in imagine all the horror and violence of that day"?
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Old 25th January 2013, 11:25 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Depends which part. The "battle" spanned three days and consisted of several distinct clashes in a number of different places.

What part of the field is significant? Little Round Top? Cemetery Ridge? The unfinished railroad? The peach orchard?

And how significant are they, really? At a certain point, don't the living have a right to get on with their lives and re-purpose the land for something other than further memorializing long-ago violence and bloodshed?

There's already a monument at Gettysburg. How much more do you need, before it becomes an unhealthy fetish?
Erm...You've never actually been to Gettysburg, have you? The place is littered with monuments. They're all over the place. Every spot where every unit was stationed, both Union and Confederate, whether on public land or private, is marked with a monument. That's not an exaggeration.

And it's far from unhealthy; it's actually quite beautiful. Adams County is better off for it, IMO.
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Old 25th January 2013, 12:12 PM   #18
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I think some are being unfair to the developers. Have you seen Canada? Hardly room to swing a cat. The inference must be this is the only possible place left for this desirable development.
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Old 25th January 2013, 01:04 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
It does some quite odd. Perhaps a little bit of money slid under the table somewhere?
Given the (comparative) hurry that things seem to be happening, I've heard less supportable suggestions. About the only reason there's much of anything left at all in the general area is because of the actions of a Niagara Falls school teacher (Ruth Redmond) some years ago who patiently acquired battlefield property over the course of years and then donated it to the city of Niagara Falls. This current situation seems to have more in common with the 'pave-it-all' mindset of amnesia as everything east and west of the site is developed with the exception of what she acquired.

Fitz
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Old 25th January 2013, 01:05 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Depends which part. The "battle" spanned three days and consisted of several distinct clashes in a number of different places.

What part of the field is significant? Little Round Top? Cemetery Ridge? The unfinished railroad? The peach orchard?

And how significant are they, really? At a certain point, don't the living have a right to get on with their lives and re-purpose the land for something other than further memorializing long-ago violence and bloodshed?

There's already a monument at Gettysburg. How much more do you need, before it becomes an unhealthy fetish?


Why is it important and worth preserving?

What value is there in the place, besides as a good location to put housing? Surely people in Ontario would like places to live?

I half think that the best thing to be done with old battlefields is to promptly turn them to some purpose other than war.

Seriously, what do you think is the problem, here? Say they put up some apartments, and put a plaque on the facade, so that interested passerby can see that yes, this apartment block was built on the site of part of a bloody battle. Would anybody reading the plaque think, "it sure is a shame that they didn't leave this lot vacant, so that we could come here and stare at the ground in imagine all the horror and violence of that day"?
God, I though conservatives were supposed to be about preserving America's Heritage. Guess I was wrong.

As a CIvil War Buff who contributes yearly to Civil War Battlefield Preservatation Funds,I fully sympathize with Fitzgibbon. Maybe the Lundy's Lane supporters should contact some of the Major Civil War Battlefield Preservation groups for advice. I am betting they would be happy to help.

Last edited by dudalb; 25th January 2013 at 01:07 PM.
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Old 25th January 2013, 01:20 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
This happens too a lot of historic areas. If you knew Atlanta Ga like I knew Atlanta in the 40's 50's and 60's and were to se the city as it is today youd see skyscrapers where grand old Victorian homes used to be. The few historic buildings left usually angered the developers who ignore the history and want to build something else there.

There are buildings from the 40's which are abandoned and in such a decrepit state that Vampire and apocalypse moves are made there. They should tear those buildings down and build the skyscrapers alone.
Toronto seemed destined to pursue a similar course and in fact was entertaining the notion of plopping the support structure for the Gardiner Expressway (main lakeshore elevated highway) right through the middle of Fort York. Unfortunately for the pharisees of 'progress', the public didn't see eye-to-eye with their proposal and the new highway would have to take a slightly less straight route. The great unwashed also decided that another proposed expressway carving into the downtown area from the city's northwest through what is now some of the most desired and expensive real estate in the country was a bad idea.

Demolition by avoiding even normal maintenance is also a problem in regards to historically-designated properties in Ontario. About the only way you can get permission to remove them is if you allow them to become such a danger to the general public that tearing them down is the only option. A couple of years ago, an historically-designated hotel a block north of Yonge and Dundas (practically the heart of downtown Toronto) mysteriously caught fire (4-alarm as I recall) and had to be torn down due to being a safety hazard. Ethics and money seem not to belong in the same sentence.

The myopic 'pragmatism' of 'forward-thinking' politicians never ceases to amaze me.

Fitz

p.s. Just as a minor post-script, I'm always astonished how we in North America jones (in general) over the palpable history we encounter when visiting Europe. Yet we seem not to want to learn those old-world lessons imparted by the likes of London or Paris or Florence.

Why is that? Are we really just that stupid?
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Old 25th January 2013, 01:31 PM   #22
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Old 25th January 2013, 01:35 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by geni View Post
The landscape appears to have already been significantly altered so at this point there is little point in worrying about it.
Not so much as to be irretrievably so. Sure outside the boundaries of the school's property, any likely discoveries of note are probably not worth the inconvenience it took to make them. But within the boundaries, my experience (which I'll detail in another post) is that the conventional wisdom in such cases would be unpleasantly upset

Originally Posted by geni View Post
To be honest battlefields are generally only worth preserving if they were preserved from day 1. Heh we lost (and in we weren't sure where it happened) the location of the Battle of Bosworth Field for a fairly long period.
Obviously, recognising and preserving a battlefield is something that only happens a generation or more after the fact when the importance of said battlefield is more generally accepted given the passage of time. If it weren't for the actions of a school teacher, I'm quite sure that there'd be nothing left of the site to preserve and scant remembrance of precisely where things actually happened. However, we have this one person to thank and we Canadians in general are a forgetful lot.

We've shared the 'let's pave it' ethos of our southern neighbour and it's interesting to note the relative paucity of tangible reminders on the US side of the Niagara River (Salt Battery and Fort Niagara [built by those cheese-eating surrender monkeys]) of a war that conclusively demonstrated to them the value of professional soldiers (which they'd up to then gainsaid).

Progress is not inherently bad nor is preservation; unfettered either is though and striking a happy medium is something that calls for cooler heads than are typically found in the active stage of any such situation. I can only hope that the councillors of the city of Niagara Falls will come to see the myopia of casting away a local, provincial, national and internationally important site for the passing few pence that will clink into the municipal coffers.

Fittz
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Old 25th January 2013, 01:46 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by AvalonXQ View Post
Can someone explain to me why it is important to preserve the physical site of battles? What exactly is lost when the land is used for something else?
A tangible connection to an important event in a nation's growth. The Lundy's Lane battlefield is binationally important. The British/Canadians held their own against a numerically superior southern foe; the States' forces proved their mettle toe-to-toe with the world's then-super-power and proved that the Revolutionary War was not as one-off fluke.

Ironically, up until the US Civil War, Lundy's Lane was a popular destination with US proto-tourists as it was the site of what was reasonably considered to be the most important US fighting engagement to that time. Of course, numerous Civil War sites would eclipse it and the battlefield viewing towers of Lundy's Lane would accordingly suffer diminished traffic.

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Old 25th January 2013, 02:13 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Especially when that has already happened!

There was already a school built there - so why on earth is it only a problem now?
Absent the experience with the First Parliament in Toronto, I'd be inclined to agree with you. The First Parliament site (the one burnt by US troops during their occupation of York [Toronto] between April 27th and May 2nd, 1813) serves as an example of what can be discovered on even the most developed site.

U.S. troops fired the parliament of Upper Canada on or around April 30th, 1813. The site was re-used for the second Parliament (which burned down of its own accord, ironically) and then was site of the York Jail, then a site for Consumers Gas followed by a car dealership. Yet for nearly two centuries of re-use, there's still markers and antiquities identifiable to the First Parliament still there.

While not a building in terms of what might be found, as battles go it was the only one during the War of 1812 on this continent where neither side had anything to be ashamed of and could be looked upon with satisfaction by either side. Do we redevelop it anyway because apartments are tangibly useful at present? Or do we hold sacred certain sites because they are ( or should be held) sacred?

As a Canadian, I nominate this site on behalf of the United States of America

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Old 25th January 2013, 02:25 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
From reading the article, it seems that this particular section of the battlefield has already been despoiled by the school, so I question how much worse the apartment complex would be.
I've just addressed that in my previous response

Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
Also, if I understood the article correctly, the plan is to preserve about half of the land in question. Often preservationists in the US have to accept "half a loaf is better than none" in disputes with would-be developers.
And perhaps a half-loaf may need to be acceptable. However, at this stage of the game it needn't if immediate convenience is the prime mover

Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
I'm also not certain that Gettysburg is the best analogy in this case; I'd characterize the Plains of Abraham as Canada's Gettysburg.
Fair enough. Appreciate that the Plains of Abraham wouldn't necessarily have quite the resonance south of the border, though.

Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
In terms of preserving battlefields in the US, there are two categories: Gettysburg, and all others. Gettysburg was the largest and bloodiest battle ever fought in North America;
Lundy's Lane was the largest, bloodiest battle ever fought during the War of 1812 in North America and its practical lessons provide a direct link that facilitated what would enable Gettysburg

Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
This is not to say that there is no push-back against encroachment of development on other battlefields, but generally it's mainly from historians and American Civil War buffs. Any threat to Gettysburg is almost certain to provoke a much stronger backlash from the general public.
And I suspect any larger populace pushback against infiltration onto Lundy's Lane will happen after-the-fact because we Canucks actively forget our history and experiences until its nearly too late. We pride ourselves generally peaceable though we're mean MFs when pushed to it. I guess I'm on this because I've realised how much Canada has the States to thank for its existence. If the War of 1812 hadn't played out just as it had, Manifest Destiny would've come to pass long before I was around to argue differently

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Old 25th January 2013, 02:42 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Why is it important and worth preserving?
It's a talisman to two nations; problem is that the nation where it lies would prefer carnivals and apartment buildings which don't have to be there particularly

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What value is there in the place, besides as a good location to put housing? Surely people in Ontario would like places to live?
We people can live anywhere; knowing what we know, why does an apartment complex need to go in that particular spot? Makes not a whit of sense to me

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I half think that the best thing to be done with old battlefields is to promptly turn them to some purpose other than war.
Those who don't learn from history.......

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Seriously, what do you think is the problem, here? Say they put up some apartments, and put a plaque on the facade, so that interested passerby can see that yes, this apartment block was built on the site of part of a bloody battle. Would anybody reading the plaque think, "it sure is a shame that they didn't leave this lot vacant, so that we could come here and stare at the ground in imagine all the horror and violence of that day"?
Well, there's a cemetery directly to the west and uphill from the school. If I were a senior, about the last thing I'd want to have in my balcony's eyeline is a cemetery. But he; that might just be me. Having been on and around the site, knowing the history I can imagine the tactical thoughts that must've been going through Winfield Scott's mind down at the bottom of the rise where the school building is just now and the thoughts going through Drummonds at the same time. I've been to the States' side of the river with its perfunctory acknowledgement of the War and I recgonise that shortcoming for what it is.

A plaque in such a circumstance is a metal 'get off my back' by those with no historical perspective. It's a passive-aggressive mostly useless encumbrance that will be mostly ignored. One need only prospect the States' side of the Niagara to see that in play.

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Old 25th January 2013, 02:43 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
I think some are being unfair to the developers. Have you seen Canada? Hardly room to swing a cat. The inference must be this is the only possible place left for this desirable development.


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Old 25th January 2013, 02:47 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
There's a miniature golf course on Omaha Beach, Charlie Green sector.
Bit of a sad comment. Obviously, not every battle of every war can or should be preserved for posterity. Otherwise we'd be worrying about tromping on important corpses all the time. Bit it's not all-or-nothing either. We have to recognise the important engagements and give them their due notice otherwise we run the risk of forgetting what it was that made them notable and important

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Old 25th January 2013, 02:54 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
God, I though conservatives were supposed to be about preserving America's Heritage. Guess I was wrong.

As a CIvil War Buff who contributes yearly to Civil War Battlefield Preservatation Funds,I fully sympathize with Fitzgibbon. Maybe the Lundy's Lane supporters should contact some of the Major Civil War Battlefield Preservation groups for advice. I am betting they would be happy to help.
We Canucks are a forgetful lot. We forget just how warlike we can be when pushed. We forget that it's war that pushed us to be. As for the Friends contacting and engaging other groups, I suspect that'd be a nonstarter. I think the local pols in Niagara Falls are more interested in the short term filthy lucre than the long term filthy lucre

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Old 26th January 2013, 12:52 PM   #31
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According to the story from the link, developers aren't building apartments, the Kiwanis Club is converting the existing school building into 30 apartment units for seniors. The City is also selling some land to an adjacent funeral home, and preserving 2 acres for a park to commemorate the battle.

The City Council and the Kiwanis Club agreed to give a preservation group six months to raise the $400,000 to buy it or even prove that they could raise that amount. In that time, the group raised just $25,000. So it seemed that either the preservation group didn't try very hard, or people didn't care enough, or both.
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Old 26th January 2013, 10:29 PM   #32
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Gettysburg is fairly safe because so much of it is in the National Park,and the town makes it's living off the Tourist trade. In fact the NPS is actually removing some modern buildings from the park to make it more like it was in 1863,
It's the battlefields that are located on private land and/or close to expanding cities that are in danger. The most endangered is Brandy Station, site of the largest cavalry battle of the war in 1863. It's located near Culpepper which has been changing from a quiet rural community into another Bedroom community for Washington DC.

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Old 27th January 2013, 08:30 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Gettysburg is fairly safe because so much of it is in the National Park,and the town makes it's living off the Tourist trade. In fact the NPS is actually removing some modern buildings from the park to make it more like it was in 1863,

Both good points. Several years ago the NPS purchased and demolished a modern observation tower that some entrepreneur had built next to the park (with Union and Confederate reenactors firing cannons at the "target" just as the detonation circuits for the explosives were closed ).

Fort McHenryWP is actually in the same category as Gettysburg, because of the connection to "The Star-Spangled Banner", but there's no threat of anything happening to it because it's wholly owned by the US government, which is why I didn't mention it.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
It's the battlefields that are located on private land and/or close to expanding cities that are in danger. The most endangered is Brandy Station, site of the largest cavalry battle of the war in 1863. It's located near Culpepper which has been changing from a quiet rural community into another Bedroom community for Washington DC.

I've read that the only significant battlefield that isn't threatened somehow or another is Shiloh, because it's in the middle of nowhere, so no one is interested in developing the area.
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Old 27th January 2013, 12:35 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by JeanFromBNA View Post
According to the story from the link, developers aren't building apartments, the Kiwanis Club is converting the existing school building into 30 apartment units for seniors. The City is also selling some land to an adjacent funeral home, and preserving 2 acres for a park to commemorate the battle.

The City Council and the Kiwanis Club agreed to give a preservation group six months to raise the $400,000 to buy it or even prove that they could raise that amount. In that time, the group raised just $25,000. So it seemed that either the preservation group didn't try very hard, or people didn't care enough, or both.
They are putting a senior citizen apartment building near a funeral home? Now, that is ----------- (censored!).
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Old 27th January 2013, 01:24 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
Both good points. Several years ago the NPS purchased and demolished a modern observation tower that some entrepreneur had built next to the park (with Union and Confederate reenactors firing cannons at the "target" just as the detonation circuits for the explosives were closed ).

Fort McHenryWP is actually in the same category as Gettysburg, because of the connection to "The Star-Spangled Banner", but there's no threat of anything happening to it because it's wholly owned by the US government, which is why I didn't mention it.




I've read that the only significant battlefield that isn't threatened somehow or another is Shiloh, because it's in the middle of nowhere, so no one is interested in developing the area.

Which was the case with several of the Northren Virginia battle sites, before the the Washington Suberbs begun their massive growth in the 80's.
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Old 27th January 2013, 04:48 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
I still can't believe that they allow development on the island of Britain, have they no respect for the lives lost in the Battle of Britain?
I'm pretty sure you're being humorous here, but just in case anyone doesn't get it

The Battle of Britain was actually fought in the air (Summer/Autumn 1940). Not to be confused with the Blitz.
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Old 27th January 2013, 09:39 PM   #37
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A lot of Revolutionary Battlefields are gone or endangered as well. In fairness a lot of the development was simple growth in the 19th century:

There's little left of Bunker/Breeds Hill. A monument with a small patch of land around it.

Almost all the NY battlefields are developed over.

In NJ, Monmouth is preserved but developers constantly beg to develop right to the edge of the state park. Fort Mercer is a park, but none of the original fort remains. Trenton has the Barracks and nothing else. Princeton preserved a few fields.

In PA, Brandywine is protected but again developers try to build right to the edge. Germantown has the Chew house still standing, the area around it has a few historical houses, but the area was developed as a city might expect over the years. Fort Mifflin remains, but only because it was an active for for many years. Much of its history & construction is not original.

Down south, the Camden battlefield is preserved. I do not know what threats it faces. King's Mountain is a National Park, and may be too far from civilization to be threatened. Yorktown is part of the whole 'Colonial Williamsburg/Yorktown/Jamestown' history for profit region and is probably safe to some degree, although much of Williamburg is rebuilds.
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Old 29th January 2013, 12:14 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Hazel View Post
They are putting a senior citizen apartment building near a funeral home? Now, that is ----------- (censored!).
I think the word you are looking for is convenient.
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Old 29th January 2013, 12:28 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
Disney wanted to build a theme park near Gettysburg. It took quite a bit of effort by people from all parts of the US to get them to drop the plan. They were going to have civil war themed things at the park.

Good luck trying to stop businesses with no respect for history.
Actually it was northern Virginia Disney was looking at, but it never got past the planning stage.


Originally Posted by JeanFromBNA View Post
According to the story from the link, developers aren't building apartments, the Kiwanis Club is converting the existing school building into 30 apartment units for seniors. The City is also selling some land to an adjacent funeral home, and preserving 2 acres for a park to commemorate the battle.

The City Council and the Kiwanis Club agreed to give a preservation group six months to raise the $400,000 to buy it or even prove that they could raise that amount. In that time, the group raised just $25,000. So it seemed that either the preservation group didn't try very hard, or people didn't care enough, or both.
A common problem with preservation efforts. It is very difficult to raise money unless there is massive public sentiment for the effort. I've served on boards of local historical and preservation societies and in my experience most people are at best apathetic towards such efforts.
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Old 29th January 2013, 10:19 PM   #40
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And as usual in such threads, I find myself reminded of a poem by one of my favorite authors:

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