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fitzgibbon · 25th January 2013, 06:51 AM

The older I get, the more I think Douglas Adams was on to something with:

"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."

To US JREFers, if some level of government proposed building apartments on part of the site of the Battle of Gettysburg, would you think those politicians should have their heads handed to them on a plate? Because here in Canada in the midst of the bicentennial of a war seminal to the origins of our country, something tantamount to the same is being proposed and I just can't begin to get my head around such myopia.

In Niagara Falls, Ontario a school that was built on the site of the Battle of Lundy's Lane (one of the bloodiest and most-hard-fought battles in the War of 1812 North American edition) closed and the city has acquired the property. The property borders Drummond Hill Cemetery which marks the battle's main focus. Now am I stupid or maybe just dense thinking that this would represent a golden opportunity to preserve a small-but-important piece of Canadian history that's otherwise surrounded by housing developments and tourist traps?

http://bit.ly/Lundys_Lane_lost

Fitz

Newtons Bit · 25th January 2013, 07:02 AM

It does some quite odd. Perhaps a little bit of money slid under the table somewhere?

Hubert Cumberdale · 25th January 2013, 07:16 AM

If it was in the UK, we'd have built a supermarket on it by now

Doubt · 25th January 2013, 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by fitzgibbon

To US JREFers, if some level of government proposed building apartments on part of the site of the Battle of Gettysburg, would you think those politicians should have their heads handed to them on a plate? Because here in Canada in the midst of the bicentennial of a war seminal to the origins of our country, something tantamount to the same is being proposed and I just can't begin to get my head around such myopia.

Disney wanted to build a theme park near Gettysburg. It took quite a bit of effort by people from all parts of the US to get them to drop the plan. They were going to have civil war themed things at the park.

Good luck trying to stop businesses with no respect for history.

geni · 25th January 2013, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by Hubert Cumberdale

If it was in the UK, we'd have built a supermarket on it by now

Perhaps but in fairness if you weren't going to build on battlefields in the UK your options would be limited.

Cainkane1 · 25th January 2013, 08:16 AM

Originally Posted by fitzgibbon

The older I get, the more I think Douglas Adams was on to something with:

"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."

To US JREFers, if some level of government proposed building apartments on part of the site of the Battle of Gettysburg, would you think those politicians should have their heads handed to them on a plate? Because here in Canada in the midst of the bicentennial of a war seminal to the origins of our country, something tantamount to the same is being proposed and I just can't begin to get my head around such myopia.

In Niagara Falls, Ontario a school that was built on the site of the Battle of Lundy's Lane (one of the bloodiest and most-hard-fought battles in the War of 1812 North American edition) closed and the city has acquired the property. The property borders Drummond Hill Cemetery which marks the battle's main focus. Now am I stupid or maybe just dense thinking that this would represent a golden opportunity to preserve a small-but-important piece of Canadian history that's otherwise surrounded by housing developments and tourist traps?

http://bit.ly/Lundys_Lane_lost

Fitz

This happens too a lot of historic areas. If you knew Atlanta Ga like I knew Atlanta in the 40's 50's and 60's and were to se the city as it is today youd see skyscrapers where grand old Victorian homes used to be. The few historic buildings left usually angered the developers who ignore the history and want to build something else there.

There are buildings from the 40's which are abandoned and in such a decrepit state that Vampire and apocalypse moves are made there. They should tear those buildings down and build the skyscrapers alone.

geni · 25th January 2013, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by fitzgibbon

In Niagara Falls, Ontario a school that was built on the site of the Battle of Lundy's Lane (one of the bloodiest and most-hard-fought battles in the War of 1812 North American edition) closed and the city has acquired the property. The property borders Drummond Hill Cemetery which marks the battle's main focus. Now am I stupid or maybe just dense thinking that this would represent a golden opportunity to preserve a small-but-important piece of Canadian history that's otherwise surrounded by housing developments and tourist traps?

The landscape appears to have already been significantly altered so at this point there is little point in worrying about it.

To be honest battlefields are generally only worth preserving if they were preserved from day 1. Heh we lost (and in we weren't sure where it happened) the location of the Battle of Bosworth Field for a fairly long period.

AvalonXQ · 25th January 2013, 08:25 AM

Can someone explain to me why it is important to preserve the physical site of battles? What exactly is lost when the land is used for something else?

Doubt · 25th January 2013, 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Can someone explain to me why it is important to preserve the physical site of battles? What exactly is lost when the land is used for something else?

What you lose is an important resource for studying what happened. History books alone don't convey everything. They are monuments to the past.

Some have been recreated. But that is not always possible and archaeological data can be lost when sites are not preserved.

A better question would be what should be the criteria for which sites are preserved and which to let go? Not every site can be saved and some just are not that important.

One of the better re-created sites I have been to is the Cowpens battlefield. I learned a lot from standing on the hill where Danial Morgan deployed hist troops against the British. Seeing the rise of the slope and looking at relative positions of the opposing sides can be a better educational tool than words printed in a book.

geni · 25th January 2013, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Can someone explain to me why it is important to preserve the physical site of battles? What exactly is lost when the land is used for something else?

Well in some cases archaeological evidence.

However less practically battlefields are closely tied into national identity. By preserving them and building monuments on them people say "what happened here was important".

Gettysburg for example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hi...attlefield.jpg

Leipzig
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Völkerschlachtdenkmal

Waterloo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...tlefield_today

Naseby

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Th...20,04,2007.JPG

One of the reasons that serbia wanted to hold onto Kosovo is that the Battle of Kosovo is closely tied in with serb national identity.

WildCat · 25th January 2013, 08:55 AM

I still can't believe that they allow development on the island of Britain, have they no respect for the lives lost in the Battle of Britain?

Furi · 25th January 2013, 08:58 AM

Europe would be pretty much empty if we didn't develop on them

The Central Scrutinizer · 25th January 2013, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by Doubt

Disney wanted to build a theme park near Gettysburg. It took quite a bit of effort by people from all parts of the US to get them to drop the plan. They were going to have civil war themed things at the park.

Good luck trying to stop businesses with no respect for history.

I was looking forward to the ride where you got to beat the slaves.

Darat · 25th January 2013, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Can someone explain to me why it is important to preserve the physical site of battles? What exactly is lost when the land is used for something else?

Especially when that has already happened!

There was already a school built there - so why on earth is it only a problem now?

SpitfireIX · 25th January 2013, 09:28 AM

From reading the article, it seems that this particular section of the battlefield has already been despoiled by the school, so I question how much worse the apartment complex would be. Also, if I understood the article correctly, the plan is to preserve about half of the land in question. Often preservationists in the US have to accept "half a loaf is better than none" in disputes with would-be developers.

I'm also not certain that Gettysburg is the best analogy in this case; I'd characterize the Plains of Abraham as Canada's Gettysburg. In terms of preserving battlefields in the US, there are two categories: Gettysburg, and all others. Gettysburg was the largest and bloodiest battle ever fought in North America; it was the only significant battle fought in a Free state, and Pickett's charge became one of the foundations of the romanticized myth of the South's Lost Cause. And, of course, Lincoln memorialized the battle for all time with his Gettysburg Address.

Lundy's Lane is more like Antietam, IMO. Both battles were tactical draws with heavy casualties on both sides, which forced the numerically inferior invaders to retreat. Antietam is strongly connected with the Emancipation Proclamation, but few Americans are aware of this.

This is not to say that there is no push-back against encroachment of development on other battlefields, but generally it's mainly from historians and American Civil War buffs. Any threat to Gettysburg is almost certain to provoke a much stronger backlash from the general public.

theprestige · 25th January 2013, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by fitzgibbon

To US JREFers, if some level of government proposed building apartments on part of the site of the Battle of Gettysburg, would you think those politicians should have their heads handed to them on a plate?

Depends which part. The "battle" spanned three days and consisted of several distinct clashes in a number of different places.

What part of the field is significant? Little Round Top? Cemetery Ridge? The unfinished railroad? The peach orchard?

And how significant are they, really? At a certain point, don't the living have a right to get on with their lives and re-purpose the land for something other than further memorializing long-ago violence and bloodshed?

There's already a monument at Gettysburg. How much more do you need, before it becomes an unhealthy fetish?

Quote:

In Niagara Falls, Ontario a school that was built on the site of the Battle of Lundy's Lane (one of the bloodiest and most-hard-fought battles in the War of 1812 North American edition) closed and the city has acquired the property. The property borders Drummond Hill Cemetery which marks the battle's main focus. Now am I stupid or maybe just dense thinking that this would represent a golden opportunity to preserve a small-but-important piece of Canadian history that's otherwise surrounded by housing developments and tourist traps?

Why is it important and worth preserving?

What value is there in the place, besides as a good location to put housing? Surely people in Ontario would like places to live?

I half think that the best thing to be done with old battlefields is to promptly turn them to some purpose other than war.

Seriously, what do you think is the problem, here? Say they put up some apartments, and put a plaque on the facade, so that interested passerby can see that yes, this apartment block was built on the site of part of a bloody battle. Would anybody reading the plaque think, "it sure is a shame that they didn't leave this lot vacant, so that we could come here and stare at the ground in imagine all the horror and violence of that day"?

Cleon · 25th January 2013, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Depends which part. The "battle" spanned three days and consisted of several distinct clashes in a number of different places.

What part of the field is significant? Little Round Top? Cemetery Ridge? The unfinished railroad? The peach orchard?

And how significant are they, really? At a certain point, don't the living have a right to get on with their lives and re-purpose the land for something other than further memorializing long-ago violence and bloodshed?

There's already a monument at Gettysburg. How much more do you need, before it becomes an unhealthy fetish?

Erm...You've never actually been to Gettysburg, have you? The place is littered with monuments. They're all over the place. Every spot where every unit was stationed, both Union and Confederate, whether on public land or private, is marked with a monument. That's not an exaggeration.

And it's far from unhealthy; it's actually quite beautiful. Adams County is better off for it, IMO.

anglolawyer · 25th January 2013, 11:12 AM

I think some are being unfair to the developers. Have you seen Canada? Hardly room to swing a cat. The inference must be this is the only possible place left for this desirable development.

fitzgibbon · 25th January 2013, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Newtons Bit

It does some quite odd. Perhaps a little bit of money slid under the table somewhere?

Given the (comparative) hurry that things seem to be happening, I've heard less supportable suggestions. About the only reason there's much of anything left at all in the general area is because of the actions of a Niagara Falls school teacher (Ruth Redmond) some years ago who patiently acquired battlefield property over the course of years and then donated it to the city of Niagara Falls. This current situation seems to have more in common with the 'pave-it-all' mindset of amnesia as everything east and west of the site is developed with the exception of what she acquired.

Fitz

dudalb · 25th January 2013, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Depends which part. The "battle" spanned three days and consisted of several distinct clashes in a number of different places.

What part of the field is significant? Little Round Top? Cemetery Ridge? The unfinished railroad? The peach orchard?

And how significant are they, really? At a certain point, don't the living have a right to get on with their lives and re-purpose the land for something other than further memorializing long-ago violence and bloodshed?

There's already a monument at Gettysburg. How much more do you need, before it becomes an unhealthy fetish?

Why is it important and worth preserving?

What value is there in the place, besides as a good location to put housing? Surely people in Ontario would like places to live?

I half think that the best thing to be done with old battlefields is to promptly turn them to some purpose other than war.

Seriously, what do you think is the problem, here? Say they put up some apartments, and put a plaque on the facade, so that interested passerby can see that yes, this apartment block was built on the site of part of a bloody battle. Would anybody reading the plaque think, "it sure is a shame that they didn't leave this lot vacant, so that we could come here and stare at the ground in imagine all the horror and violence of that day"?

God, I though conservatives were supposed to be about preserving America's Heritage. Guess I was wrong.

As a CIvil War Buff who contributes yearly to Civil War Battlefield Preservatation Funds,I fully sympathize with Fitzgibbon. Maybe the Lundy's Lane supporters should contact some of the Major Civil War Battlefield Preservation groups for advice. I am betting they would be happy to help.

fitzgibbon · 25th January 2013, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

This happens too a lot of historic areas. If you knew Atlanta Ga like I knew Atlanta in the 40's 50's and 60's and were to se the city as it is today youd see skyscrapers where grand old Victorian homes used to be. The few historic buildings left usually angered the developers who ignore the history and want to build something else there.

There are buildings from the 40's which are abandoned and in such a decrepit state that Vampire and apocalypse moves are made there. They should tear those buildings down and build the skyscrapers alone.

Toronto seemed destined to pursue a similar course and in fact was entertaining the notion of plopping the support structure for the Gardiner Expressway (main lakeshore elevated highway) right through the middle of Fort York. Unfortunately for the pharisees of 'progress', the public didn't see eye-to-eye with their proposal and the new highway would have to take a slightly less straight route. The great unwashed also decided that another proposed expressway carving into the downtown area from the city's northwest through what is now some of the most desired and expensive real estate in the country was a bad idea.

Demolition by avoiding even normal maintenance is also a problem in regards to historically-designated properties in Ontario. About the only way you can get permission to remove them is if you allow them to become such a danger to the general public that tearing them down is the only option. A couple of years ago, an historically-designated hotel a block north of Yonge and Dundas (practically the heart of downtown Toronto) mysteriously caught fire (4-alarm as I recall) and had to be torn down due to being a safety hazard. Ethics and money seem not to belong in the same sentence.

The myopic 'pragmatism' of 'forward-thinking' politicians never ceases to amaze me.

Fitz

p.s. Just as a minor post-script, I'm always astonished how we in North America jones (in general) over the palpable history we encounter when visiting Europe. Yet we seem not to want to learn those old-world lessons imparted by the likes of London or Paris or Florence.

Why is that? Are we really just that stupid?

Polaris · 25th January 2013, 12:31 PM

There's a miniature golf course on Omaha Beach, Charlie Green sector.

fitzgibbon · 25th January 2013, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by geni

The landscape appears to have already been significantly altered so at this point there is little point in worrying about it.

Not so much as to be irretrievably so. Sure outside the boundaries of the school's property, any likely discoveries of note are probably not worth the inconvenience it took to make them. But within the boundaries, my experience (which I'll detail in another post) is that the conventional wisdom in such cases would be unpleasantly upset

Originally Posted by geni

To be honest battlefields are generally only worth preserving if they were preserved from day 1. Heh we lost (and in we weren't sure where it happened) the location of the Battle of Bosworth Field for a fairly long period.

Obviously, recognising and preserving a battlefield is something that only happens a generation or more after the fact when the importance of said battlefield is more generally accepted given the passage of time. If it weren't for the actions of a school teacher, I'm quite sure that there'd be nothing left of the site to preserve and scant remembrance of precisely where things actually happened. However, we have this one person to thank and we Canadians in general are a forgetful lot.

We've shared the 'let's pave it' ethos of our southern neighbour and it's interesting to note the relative paucity of tangible reminders on the US side of the Niagara River (Salt Battery and Fort Niagara [built by those cheese-eating surrender monkeys]) of a war that conclusively demonstrated to them the value of professional soldiers (which they'd up to then gainsaid).

Progress is not inherently bad nor is preservation; unfettered either is though and striking a happy medium is something that calls for cooler heads than are typically found in the active stage of any such situation. I can only hope that the councillors of the city of Niagara Falls will come to see the myopia of casting away a local, provincial, national and internationally important site for the passing few pence that will clink into the municipal coffers.

Fittz

fitzgibbon · 25th January 2013, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Can someone explain to me why it is important to preserve the physical site of battles? What exactly is lost when the land is used for something else?

A tangible connection to an important event in a nation's growth. The Lundy's Lane battlefield is binationally important. The British/Canadians held their own against a numerically superior southern foe; the States' forces proved their mettle toe-to-toe with the world's then-super-power and proved that the Revolutionary War was not as one-off fluke.

Ironically, up until the US Civil War, Lundy's Lane was a popular destination with US proto-tourists as it was the site of what was reasonably considered to be the most important US fighting engagement to that time. Of course, numerous Civil War sites would eclipse it and the battlefield viewing towers of Lundy's Lane would accordingly suffer diminished traffic.

Fitz

fitzgibbon · 25th January 2013, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

Especially when that has already happened!

There was already a school built there - so why on earth is it only a problem now?

Absent the experience with the First Parliament in Toronto, I'd be inclined to agree with you. The First Parliament site (the one burnt by US troops during their occupation of York [Toronto] between April 27th and May 2nd, 1813) serves as an example of what can be discovered on even the most developed site.

U.S. troops fired the parliament of Upper Canada on or around April 30th, 1813. The site was re-used for the second Parliament (which burned down of its own accord, ironically) and then was site of the York Jail, then a site for Consumers Gas followed by a car dealership. Yet for nearly two centuries of re-use, there's still markers and antiquities identifiable to the First Parliament still there.

While not a building in terms of what might be found, as battles go it was the only one during the War of 1812 on this continent where neither side had anything to be ashamed of and could be looked upon with satisfaction by either side. Do we redevelop it anyway because apartments are tangibly useful at present? Or do we hold sacred certain sites because they are ( or should be held) sacred?

As a Canadian, I nominate this site on behalf of the United States of America

Fitz

fitzgibbon · 25th January 2013, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by SpitfireIX

From reading the article, it seems that this particular section of the battlefield has already been despoiled by the school, so I question how much worse the apartment complex would be.

I've just addressed that in my previous response

Originally Posted by SpitfireIX

Also, if I understood the article correctly, the plan is to preserve about half of the land in question. Often preservationists in the US have to accept "half a loaf is better than none" in disputes with would-be developers.

And perhaps a half-loaf may need to be acceptable. However, at this stage of the game it needn't if immediate convenience is the prime mover

Originally Posted by SpitfireIX

I'm also not certain that Gettysburg is the best analogy in this case; I'd characterize the Plains of Abraham as Canada's Gettysburg.

Fair enough. Appreciate that the Plains of Abraham wouldn't necessarily have quite the resonance south of the border, though.

Originally Posted by SpitfireIX

In terms of preserving battlefields in the US, there are two categories: Gettysburg, and all others. Gettysburg was the largest and bloodiest battle ever fought in North America;

Lundy's Lane was the largest, bloodiest battle ever fought during the War of 1812 in North America and its practical lessons provide a direct link that facilitated what would enable Gettysburg

Originally Posted by SpitfireIX

This is not to say that there is no push-back against encroachment of development on other battlefields, but generally it's mainly from historians and American Civil War buffs. Any threat to Gettysburg is almost certain to provoke a much stronger backlash from the general public.

And I suspect any larger populace pushback against infiltration onto Lundy's Lane will happen after-the-fact because we Canucks actively forget our history and experiences until its nearly too late. We pride ourselves generally peaceable though we're mean MFs when pushed to it. I guess I'm on this because I've realised how much Canada has the States to thank for its existence. If the War of 1812 hadn't played out just as it had, Manifest Destiny would've come to pass long before I was around to argue differently

Fitz

fitzgibbon · 25th January 2013, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Why is it important and worth preserving?

It's a talisman to two nations; problem is that the nation where it lies would prefer carnivals and apartment buildings which don't have to be there particularly

Originally Posted by theprestige

What value is there in the place, besides as a good location to put housing? Surely people in Ontario would like places to live?

We people can live anywhere; knowing what we know, why does an apartment complex need to go in that particular spot? Makes not a whit of sense to me

Originally Posted by theprestige

I half think that the best thing to be done with old battlefields is to promptly turn them to some purpose other than war.

Those who don't learn from history.......

Originally Posted by theprestige

Seriously, what do you think is the problem, here? Say they put up some apartments, and put a plaque on the facade, so that interested passerby can see that yes, this apartment block was built on the site of part of a bloody battle. Would anybody reading the plaque think, "it sure is a shame that they didn't leave this lot vacant, so that we could come here and stare at the ground in imagine all the horror and violence of that day"?

Well, there's a cemetery directly to the west and uphill from the school. If I were a senior, about the last thing I'd want to have in my balcony's eyeline is a cemetery. But he; that might just be me. Having been on and around the site, knowing the history I can imagine the tactical thoughts that must've been going through Winfield Scott's mind down at the bottom of the rise where the school building is just now and the thoughts going through Drummonds at the same time. I've been to the States' side of the river with its perfunctory acknowledgement of the War and I recgonise that shortcoming for what it is.

A plaque in such a circumstance is a metal 'get off my back' by those with no historical perspective. It's a passive-aggressive mostly useless encumbrance that will be mostly ignored. One need only prospect the States' side of the Niagara to see that in play.

Fitz

fitzgibbon · 25th January 2013, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by anglolawyer

I think some are being unfair to the developers. Have you seen Canada? Hardly room to swing a cat. The inference must be this is the only possible place left for this desirable development.

Fitz

fitzgibbon · 25th January 2013, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by Polaris

There's a miniature golf course on Omaha Beach, Charlie Green sector.

Bit of a sad comment. Obviously, not every battle of every war can or should be preserved for posterity. Otherwise we'd be worrying about tromping on important corpses all the time. Bit it's not all-or-nothing either. We have to recognise the important engagements and give them their due notice otherwise we run the risk of forgetting what it was that made them notable and important

Fitz

fitzgibbon · 25th January 2013, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

God, I though conservatives were supposed to be about preserving America's Heritage. Guess I was wrong.

As a CIvil War Buff who contributes yearly to Civil War Battlefield Preservatation Funds,I fully sympathize with Fitzgibbon. Maybe the Lundy's Lane supporters should contact some of the Major Civil War Battlefield Preservation groups for advice. I am betting they would be happy to help.

We Canucks are a forgetful lot. We forget just how warlike we can be when pushed. We forget that it's war that pushed us to be. As for the Friends contacting and engaging other groups, I suspect that'd be a nonstarter. I think the local pols in Niagara Falls are more interested in the short term filthy lucre than the long term filthy lucre

Fitz

JeanFromBNA · 26th January 2013, 11:52 AM

According to the story from the link, developers aren't building apartments, the Kiwanis Club is converting the existing school building into 30 apartment units for seniors. The City is also selling some land to an adjacent funeral home, and preserving 2 acres for a park to commemorate the battle.

The City Council and the Kiwanis Club agreed to give a preservation group six months to raise the $400,000 to buy it or even prove that they could raise that amount. In that time, the group raised just $25,000. So it seemed that either the preservation group didn't try very hard, or people didn't care enough, or both.

dudalb · 26th January 2013, 09:29 PM

Gettysburg is fairly safe because so much of it is in the National Park,and the town makes it's living off the Tourist trade. In fact the NPS is actually removing some modern buildings from the park to make it more like it was in 1863,
It's the battlefields that are located on private land and/or close to expanding cities that are in danger. The most endangered is Brandy Station, site of the largest cavalry battle of the war in 1863. It's located near Culpepper which has been changing from a quiet rural community into another Bedroom community for Washington DC.

SpitfireIX · 27th January 2013, 07:30 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Gettysburg is fairly safe because so much of it is in the National Park,and the town makes it's living off the Tourist trade. In fact the NPS is actually removing some modern buildings from the park to make it more like it was in 1863,

Both good points. Several years ago the NPS purchased and demolished a modern observation tower that some entrepreneur had built next to the park (with Union and Confederate reenactors firing cannons at the "target" just as the detonation circuits for the explosives were closed

).

Fort McHenry^WP is actually in the same category as Gettysburg, because of the connection to "The Star-Spangled Banner", but there's no threat of anything happening to it because it's wholly owned by the US government, which is why I didn't mention it.

Originally Posted by dudalb

It's the battlefields that are located on private land and/or close to expanding cities that are in danger. The most endangered is Brandy Station, site of the largest cavalry battle of the war in 1863. It's located near Culpepper which has been changing from a quiet rural community into another Bedroom community for Washington DC.

I've read that the only significant battlefield that isn't threatened somehow or another is Shiloh, because it's in the middle of nowhere, so no one is interested in developing the area.

Hazel · 27th January 2013, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by JeanFromBNA

According to the story from the link, developers aren't building apartments, the Kiwanis Club is converting the existing school building into 30 apartment units for seniors. The City is also selling some land to an adjacent funeral home, and preserving 2 acres for a park to commemorate the battle.

The City Council and the Kiwanis Club agreed to give a preservation group six months to raise the $400,000 to buy it or even prove that they could raise that amount. In that time, the group raised just $25,000. So it seemed that either the preservation group didn't try very hard, or people didn't care enough, or both.

They are putting a senior citizen apartment building near a funeral home? Now, that is ----------- (censored!).

dudalb · 27th January 2013, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by SpitfireIX

Both good points. Several years ago the NPS purchased and demolished a modern observation tower that some entrepreneur had built next to the park (with Union and Confederate reenactors firing cannons at the "target" just as the detonation circuits for the explosives were closed

).

Fort McHenry^WP is actually in the same category as Gettysburg, because of the connection to "The Star-Spangled Banner", but there's no threat of anything happening to it because it's wholly owned by the US government, which is why I didn't mention it.

I've read that the only significant battlefield that isn't threatened somehow or another is Shiloh, because it's in the middle of nowhere, so no one is interested in developing the area.

Which was the case with several of the Northren Virginia battle sites, before the the Washington Suberbs begun their massive growth in the 80's.

commandlinegamer · 27th January 2013, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

I still can't believe that they allow development on the island of Britain, have they no respect for the lives lost in the Battle of Britain?

I'm pretty sure you're being humorous here, but just in case anyone doesn't get it

kookbreaker · 27th January 2013, 08:39 PM

A lot of Revolutionary Battlefields are gone or endangered as well. In fairness a lot of the development was simple growth in the 19th century:

There's little left of Bunker/Breeds Hill. A monument with a small patch of land around it.

Almost all the NY battlefields are developed over.

In NJ, Monmouth is preserved but developers constantly beg to develop right to the edge of the state park. Fort Mercer is a park, but none of the original fort remains. Trenton has the Barracks and nothing else. Princeton preserved a few fields.

In PA, Brandywine is protected but again developers try to build right to the edge. Germantown has the Chew house still standing, the area around it has a few historical houses, but the area was developed as a city might expect over the years. Fort Mifflin remains, but only because it was an active for for many years. Much of its history & construction is not original.

Down south, the Camden battlefield is preserved. I do not know what threats it faces. King's Mountain is a National Park, and may be too far from civilization to be threatened. Yorktown is part of the whole 'Colonial Williamsburg/Yorktown/Jamestown' history for profit region and is probably safe to some degree, although much of Williamburg is rebuilds.

Spindrift · 29th January 2013, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by Hazel

They are putting a senior citizen apartment building near a funeral home? Now, that is ----------- (censored!).

I think the word you are looking for is convenient.

Spindrift · 29th January 2013, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Doubt

Disney wanted to build a theme park near Gettysburg. It took quite a bit of effort by people from all parts of the US to get them to drop the plan. They were going to have civil war themed things at the park.

Good luck trying to stop businesses with no respect for history.

Actually it was northern Virginia Disney was looking at, but it never got past the planning stage.

Originally Posted by JeanFromBNA

According to the story from the link, developers aren't building apartments, the Kiwanis Club is converting the existing school building into 30 apartment units for seniors. The City is also selling some land to an adjacent funeral home, and preserving 2 acres for a park to commemorate the battle.

The City Council and the Kiwanis Club agreed to give a preservation group six months to raise the $400,000 to buy it or even prove that they could raise that amount. In that time, the group raised just $25,000. So it seemed that either the preservation group didn't try very hard, or people didn't care enough, or both.

A common problem with preservation efforts. It is very difficult to raise money unless there is massive public sentiment for the effort. I've served on boards of local historical and preservation societies and in my experience most people are at best apathetic towards such efforts.

bruto · 29th January 2013, 09:19 PM

And as usual in such threads, I find myself reminded of a poem by one of my favorite authors:

REALITY DEMANDS, by Wislawa Szymborska

25th January 2013, 06:51 AM	#1
fitzgibbon Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: Just west of the centre of the universe Posts: 2,553	He! Let's build apartments on an important battlefield! The older I get, the more I think Douglas Adams was on to something with: "Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job." To US JREFers, if some level of government proposed building apartments on part of the site of the Battle of Gettysburg, would you think those politicians should have their heads handed to them on a plate? Because here in Canada in the midst of the bicentennial of a war seminal to the origins of our country, something tantamount to the same is being proposed and I just can't begin to get my head around such myopia. In Niagara Falls, Ontario a school that was built on the site of the Battle of Lundy's Lane (one of the bloodiest and most-hard-fought battles in the War of 1812 North American edition) closed and the city has acquired the property. The property borders Drummond Hill Cemetery which marks the battle's main focus. Now am I stupid or maybe just dense thinking that this would represent a golden opportunity to preserve a small-but-important piece of Canadian history that's otherwise surrounded by housing developments and tourist traps? http://bit.ly/Lundys_Lane_lost Fitz
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25th January 2013, 07:02 AM	#2
Newtons Bit Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 7,051	It does some quite odd. Perhaps a little bit of money slid under the table somewhere?
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25th January 2013, 07:16 AM	#3
Hubert Cumberdale Muse Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 555	If it was in the UK, we'd have built a supermarket on it by now
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25th January 2013, 07:22 AM	#4
Doubt Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 5,488	Originally Posted by fitzgibbon To US JREFers, if some level of government proposed building apartments on part of the site of the Battle of Gettysburg, would you think those politicians should have their heads handed to them on a plate? Because here in Canada in the midst of the bicentennial of a war seminal to the origins of our country, something tantamount to the same is being proposed and I just can't begin to get my head around such myopia. Disney wanted to build a theme park near Gettysburg. It took quite a bit of effort by people from all parts of the US to get them to drop the plan. They were going to have civil war themed things at the park. Good luck trying to stop businesses with no respect for history.
Doubt Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 5,488	__________________ Doubt world tour locations: Mostly home for now. No international travel scheduled other than the Galapagos trip in March. Disclaimer: Not a high energy scientist!

25th January 2013, 08:16 AM	#6
Cainkane1 Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 7,239	Originally Posted by fitzgibbon The older I get, the more I think Douglas Adams was on to something with: "Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job." To US JREFers, if some level of government proposed building apartments on part of the site of the Battle of Gettysburg, would you think those politicians should have their heads handed to them on a plate? Because here in Canada in the midst of the bicentennial of a war seminal to the origins of our country, something tantamount to the same is being proposed and I just can't begin to get my head around such myopia. In Niagara Falls, Ontario a school that was built on the site of the Battle of Lundy's Lane (one of the bloodiest and most-hard-fought battles in the War of 1812 North American edition) closed and the city has acquired the property. The property borders Drummond Hill Cemetery which marks the battle's main focus. Now am I stupid or maybe just dense thinking that this would represent a golden opportunity to preserve a small-but-important piece of Canadian history that's otherwise surrounded by housing developments and tourist traps? http://bit.ly/Lundys_Lane_lost Fitz This happens too a lot of historic areas. If you knew Atlanta Ga like I knew Atlanta in the 40's 50's and 60's and were to se the city as it is today youd see skyscrapers where grand old Victorian homes used to be. The few historic buildings left usually angered the developers who ignore the history and want to build something else there. There are buildings from the 40's which are abandoned and in such a decrepit state that Vampire and apocalypse moves are made there. They should tear those buildings down and build the skyscrapers alone.
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25th January 2013, 08:10 AM	#5
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,642	Originally Posted by Hubert Cumberdale If it was in the UK, we'd have built a supermarket on it by now Perhaps but in fairness if you weren't going to build on battlefields in the UK your options would be limited.

25th January 2013, 08:19 AM	#7
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,642	Originally Posted by fitzgibbon In Niagara Falls, Ontario a school that was built on the site of the Battle of Lundy's Lane (one of the bloodiest and most-hard-fought battles in the War of 1812 North American edition) closed and the city has acquired the property. The property borders Drummond Hill Cemetery which marks the battle's main focus. Now am I stupid or maybe just dense thinking that this would represent a golden opportunity to preserve a small-but-important piece of Canadian history that's otherwise surrounded by housing developments and tourist traps? The landscape appears to have already been significantly altered so at this point there is little point in worrying about it. To be honest battlefields are generally only worth preserving if they were preserved from day 1. Heh we lost (and in we weren't sure where it happened) the location of the Battle of Bosworth Field for a fairly long period.

25th January 2013, 08:25 AM	#8
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Can someone explain to me why it is important to preserve the physical site of battles? What exactly is lost when the land is used for something else?
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25th January 2013, 08:37 AM	#9
Doubt Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 5,488	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Can someone explain to me why it is important to preserve the physical site of battles? What exactly is lost when the land is used for something else? What you lose is an important resource for studying what happened. History books alone don't convey everything. They are monuments to the past. Some have been recreated. But that is not always possible and archaeological data can be lost when sites are not preserved. A better question would be what should be the criteria for which sites are preserved and which to let go? Not every site can be saved and some just are not that important. One of the better re-created sites I have been to is the Cowpens battlefield. I learned a lot from standing on the hill where Danial Morgan deployed hist troops against the British. Seeing the rise of the slope and looking at relative positions of the opposing sides can be a better educational tool than words printed in a book.
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25th January 2013, 08:40 AM	#10
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,642	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Can someone explain to me why it is important to preserve the physical site of battles? What exactly is lost when the land is used for something else? Well in some cases archaeological evidence. However less practically battlefields are closely tied into national identity. By preserving them and building monuments on them people say "what happened here was important". Gettysburg for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hi...attlefield.jpg Leipzig http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Völkerschlachtdenkmal Waterloo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...tlefield_today Naseby http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Th...20,04,2007.JPG One of the reasons that serbia wanted to hold onto Kosovo is that the Battle of Kosovo is closely tied in with serb national identity.

25th January 2013, 08:55 AM	#11
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,475	I still can't believe that they allow development on the island of Britain, have they no respect for the lives lost in the Battle of Britain?

25th January 2013, 08:58 AM	#12
Furi Felix Sapiens Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Living life in the bus lane Posts: 2,006	Europe would be pretty much empty if we didn't develop on them
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25th January 2013, 09:00 AM	#13
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,594	Originally Posted by Doubt Disney wanted to build a theme park near Gettysburg. It took quite a bit of effort by people from all parts of the US to get them to drop the plan. They were going to have civil war themed things at the park. Good luck trying to stop businesses with no respect for history. I was looking forward to the ride where you got to beat the slaves.
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25th January 2013, 09:06 AM	#14
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,990	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Can someone explain to me why it is important to preserve the physical site of battles? What exactly is lost when the land is used for something else? Especially when that has already happened! There was already a school built there - so why on earth is it only a problem now?
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

25th January 2013, 09:28 AM	#15
SpitfireIX Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA Posts: 2,832	From reading the article, it seems that this particular section of the battlefield has already been despoiled by the school, so I question how much worse the apartment complex would be. Also, if I understood the article correctly, the plan is to preserve about half of the land in question. Often preservationists in the US have to accept "half a loaf is better than none" in disputes with would-be developers. I'm also not certain that Gettysburg is the best analogy in this case; I'd characterize the Plains of Abraham as Canada's Gettysburg. In terms of preserving battlefields in the US, there are two categories: Gettysburg, and all others. Gettysburg was the largest and bloodiest battle ever fought in North America; it was the only significant battle fought in a Free state, and Pickett's charge became one of the foundations of the romanticized myth of the South's Lost Cause. And, of course, Lincoln memorialized the battle for all time with his Gettysburg Address. Lundy's Lane is more like Antietam, IMO. Both battles were tactical draws with heavy casualties on both sides, which forced the numerically inferior invaders to retreat. Antietam is strongly connected with the Emancipation Proclamation, but few Americans are aware of this. This is not to say that there is no push-back against encroachment of development on other battlefields, but generally it's mainly from historians and American Civil War buffs. Any threat to Gettysburg is almost certain to provoke a much stronger backlash from the general public.
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25th January 2013, 10:01 AM	#16
theprestige Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 8,905	Originally Posted by fitzgibbon To US JREFers, if some level of government proposed building apartments on part of the site of the Battle of Gettysburg, would you think those politicians should have their heads handed to them on a plate? Depends which part. The "battle" spanned three days and consisted of several distinct clashes in a number of different places. What part of the field is significant? Little Round Top? Cemetery Ridge? The unfinished railroad? The peach orchard? And how significant are they, really? At a certain point, don't the living have a right to get on with their lives and re-purpose the land for something other than further memorializing long-ago violence and bloodshed? There's already a monument at Gettysburg. How much more do you need, before it becomes an unhealthy fetish? Quote: In Niagara Falls, Ontario a school that was built on the site of the Battle of Lundy's Lane (one of the bloodiest and most-hard-fought battles in the War of 1812 North American edition) closed and the city has acquired the property. The property borders Drummond Hill Cemetery which marks the battle's main focus. Now am I stupid or maybe just dense thinking that this would represent a golden opportunity to preserve a small-but-important piece of Canadian history that's otherwise surrounded by housing developments and tourist traps? Why is it important and worth preserving? What value is there in the place, besides as a good location to put housing? Surely people in Ontario would like places to live? I half think that the best thing to be done with old battlefields is to promptly turn them to some purpose other than war. Seriously, what do you think is the problem, here? Say they put up some apartments, and put a plaque on the facade, so that interested passerby can see that yes, this apartment block was built on the site of part of a bloody battle. Would anybody reading the plaque think, "it sure is a shame that they didn't leave this lot vacant, so that we could come here and stare at the ground in imagine all the horror and violence of that day"?
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25th January 2013, 10:25 AM	#17
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,611	Originally Posted by theprestige Depends which part. The "battle" spanned three days and consisted of several distinct clashes in a number of different places. What part of the field is significant? Little Round Top? Cemetery Ridge? The unfinished railroad? The peach orchard? And how significant are they, really? At a certain point, don't the living have a right to get on with their lives and re-purpose the land for something other than further memorializing long-ago violence and bloodshed? There's already a monument at Gettysburg. How much more do you need, before it becomes an unhealthy fetish? Erm...You've never actually been to Gettysburg, have you? The place is littered with monuments. They're all over the place. Every spot where every unit was stationed, both Union and Confederate, whether on public land or private, is marked with a monument. That's not an exaggeration. And it's far from unhealthy; it's actually quite beautiful. Adams County is better off for it, IMO.
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25th January 2013, 11:12 AM	#18
anglolawyer Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: surrey, england Posts: 3,613	I think some are being unfair to the developers. Have you seen Canada? Hardly room to swing a cat. The inference must be this is the only possible place left for this desirable development.

25th January 2013, 12:04 PM	#19
fitzgibbon Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: Just west of the centre of the universe Posts: 2,553	Originally Posted by Newtons Bit It does some quite odd. Perhaps a little bit of money slid under the table somewhere? Given the (comparative) hurry that things seem to be happening, I've heard less supportable suggestions. About the only reason there's much of anything left at all in the general area is because of the actions of a Niagara Falls school teacher (Ruth Redmond) some years ago who patiently acquired battlefield property over the course of years and then donated it to the city of Niagara Falls. This current situation seems to have more in common with the 'pave-it-all' mindset of amnesia as everything east and west of the site is developed with the exception of what she acquired. Fitz
	__________________ "Television is a circus, a carnival, a traveling troupe of acrobats, storytellers, dancers, singers, jugglers, side-show freaks, lion tamers, and football players. We're in the boredom-killing business! So if you want the truth... Go to God!" Howard Beale, "Network"

25th January 2013, 12:05 PM	#20
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 23,023	Originally Posted by theprestige Depends which part. The "battle" spanned three days and consisted of several distinct clashes in a number of different places. What part of the field is significant? Little Round Top? Cemetery Ridge? The unfinished railroad? The peach orchard? And how significant are they, really? At a certain point, don't the living have a right to get on with their lives and re-purpose the land for something other than further memorializing long-ago violence and bloodshed? There's already a monument at Gettysburg. How much more do you need, before it becomes an unhealthy fetish? Why is it important and worth preserving? What value is there in the place, besides as a good location to put housing? Surely people in Ontario would like places to live? I half think that the best thing to be done with old battlefields is to promptly turn them to some purpose other than war. Seriously, what do you think is the problem, here? Say they put up some apartments, and put a plaque on the facade, so that interested passerby can see that yes, this apartment block was built on the site of part of a bloody battle. Would anybody reading the plaque think, "it sure is a shame that they didn't leave this lot vacant, so that we could come here and stare at the ground in imagine all the horror and violence of that day"? God, I though conservatives were supposed to be about preserving America's Heritage. Guess I was wrong. As a CIvil War Buff who contributes yearly to Civil War Battlefield Preservatation Funds,I fully sympathize with Fitzgibbon. Maybe the Lundy's Lane supporters should contact some of the Major Civil War Battlefield Preservation groups for advice. I am betting they would be happy to help.
	Last edited by dudalb; 25th January 2013 at 12:07 PM.

25th January 2013, 12:20 PM	#21
fitzgibbon Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: Just west of the centre of the universe Posts: 2,553	Originally Posted by Cainkane1 This happens too a lot of historic areas. If you knew Atlanta Ga like I knew Atlanta in the 40's 50's and 60's and were to se the city as it is today youd see skyscrapers where grand old Victorian homes used to be. The few historic buildings left usually angered the developers who ignore the history and want to build something else there. There are buildings from the 40's which are abandoned and in such a decrepit state that Vampire and apocalypse moves are made there. They should tear those buildings down and build the skyscrapers alone. Toronto seemed destined to pursue a similar course and in fact was entertaining the notion of plopping the support structure for the Gardiner Expressway (main lakeshore elevated highway) right through the middle of Fort York. Unfortunately for the pharisees of 'progress', the public didn't see eye-to-eye with their proposal and the new highway would have to take a slightly less straight route. The great unwashed also decided that another proposed expressway carving into the downtown area from the city's northwest through what is now some of the most desired and expensive real estate in the country was a bad idea. Demolition by avoiding even normal maintenance is also a problem in regards to historically-designated properties in Ontario. About the only way you can get permission to remove them is if you allow them to become such a danger to the general public that tearing them down is the only option. A couple of years ago, an historically-designated hotel a block north of Yonge and Dundas (practically the heart of downtown Toronto) mysteriously caught fire (4-alarm as I recall) and had to be torn down due to being a safety hazard. Ethics and money seem not to belong in the same sentence. The myopic 'pragmatism' of 'forward-thinking' politicians never ceases to amaze me. Fitz p.s. Just as a minor post-script, I'm always astonished how we in North America jones (in general) over the palpable history we encounter when visiting Europe. Yet we seem not to want to learn those old-world lessons imparted by the likes of London or Paris or Florence. Why is that? Are we really just that stupid?
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25th January 2013, 12:31 PM	#22
Polaris Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,229	There's a miniature golf course on Omaha Beach, Charlie Green sector.
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25th January 2013, 12:35 PM	#23
fitzgibbon Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: Just west of the centre of the universe Posts: 2,553	Originally Posted by geni The landscape appears to have already been significantly altered so at this point there is little point in worrying about it. Not so much as to be irretrievably so. Sure outside the boundaries of the school's property, any likely discoveries of note are probably not worth the inconvenience it took to make them. But within the boundaries, my experience (which I'll detail in another post) is that the conventional wisdom in such cases would be unpleasantly upset Originally Posted by geni To be honest battlefields are generally only worth preserving if they were preserved from day 1. Heh we lost (and in we weren't sure where it happened) the location of the Battle of Bosworth Field for a fairly long period. Obviously, recognising and preserving a battlefield is something that only happens a generation or more after the fact when the importance of said battlefield is more generally accepted given the passage of time. If it weren't for the actions of a school teacher, I'm quite sure that there'd be nothing left of the site to preserve and scant remembrance of precisely where things actually happened. However, we have this one person to thank and we Canadians in general are a forgetful lot. We've shared the 'let's pave it' ethos of our southern neighbour and it's interesting to note the relative paucity of tangible reminders on the US side of the Niagara River (Salt Battery and Fort Niagara [built by those cheese-eating surrender monkeys]) of a war that conclusively demonstrated to them the value of professional soldiers (which they'd up to then gainsaid). Progress is not inherently bad nor is preservation; unfettered either is though and striking a happy medium is something that calls for cooler heads than are typically found in the active stage of any such situation. I can only hope that the councillors of the city of Niagara Falls will come to see the myopia of casting away a local, provincial, national and internationally important site for the passing few pence that will clink into the municipal coffers. Fittz
	__________________ "Television is a circus, a carnival, a traveling troupe of acrobats, storytellers, dancers, singers, jugglers, side-show freaks, lion tamers, and football players. We're in the boredom-killing business! So if you want the truth... Go to God!" Howard Beale, "Network" Last edited by fitzgibbon; 25th January 2013 at 01:35 PM.

25th January 2013, 12:46 PM	#24
fitzgibbon Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: Just west of the centre of the universe Posts: 2,553	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Can someone explain to me why it is important to preserve the physical site of battles? What exactly is lost when the land is used for something else? A tangible connection to an important event in a nation's growth. The Lundy's Lane battlefield is binationally important. The British/Canadians held their own against a numerically superior southern foe; the States' forces proved their mettle toe-to-toe with the world's then-super-power and proved that the Revolutionary War was not as one-off fluke. Ironically, up until the US Civil War, Lundy's Lane was a popular destination with US proto-tourists as it was the site of what was reasonably considered to be the most important US fighting engagement to that time. Of course, numerous Civil War sites would eclipse it and the battlefield viewing towers of Lundy's Lane would accordingly suffer diminished traffic. Fitz
	__________________ "Television is a circus, a carnival, a traveling troupe of acrobats, storytellers, dancers, singers, jugglers, side-show freaks, lion tamers, and football players. We're in the boredom-killing business! So if you want the truth... Go to God!" Howard Beale, "Network"

25th January 2013, 01:13 PM	#25
fitzgibbon Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: Just west of the centre of the universe Posts: 2,553	Originally Posted by Darat Especially when that has already happened! There was already a school built there - so why on earth is it only a problem now? Absent the experience with the First Parliament in Toronto, I'd be inclined to agree with you. The First Parliament site (the one burnt by US troops during their occupation of York [Toronto] between April 27th and May 2nd, 1813) serves as an example of what can be discovered on even the most developed site. U.S. troops fired the parliament of Upper Canada on or around April 30th, 1813. The site was re-used for the second Parliament (which burned down of its own accord, ironically) and then was site of the York Jail, then a site for Consumers Gas followed by a car dealership. Yet for nearly two centuries of re-use, there's still markers and antiquities identifiable to the First Parliament still there. While not a building in terms of what might be found, as battles go it was the only one during the War of 1812 on this continent where neither side had anything to be ashamed of and could be looked upon with satisfaction by either side. Do we redevelop it anyway because apartments are tangibly useful at present? Or do we hold sacred certain sites because they are ( or should be held) sacred? As a Canadian, I nominate this site on behalf of the United States of America Fitz
	__________________ "Television is a circus, a carnival, a traveling troupe of acrobats, storytellers, dancers, singers, jugglers, side-show freaks, lion tamers, and football players. We're in the boredom-killing business! So if you want the truth... Go to God!" Howard Beale, "Network"

25th January 2013, 01:25 PM	#26
fitzgibbon Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: Just west of the centre of the universe Posts: 2,553	Originally Posted by SpitfireIX From reading the article, it seems that this particular section of the battlefield has already been despoiled by the school, so I question how much worse the apartment complex would be. I've just addressed that in my previous response Originally Posted by SpitfireIX Also, if I understood the article correctly, the plan is to preserve about half of the land in question. Often preservationists in the US have to accept "half a loaf is better than none" in disputes with would-be developers. And perhaps a half-loaf may need to be acceptable. However, at this stage of the game it needn't if immediate convenience is the prime mover Originally Posted by SpitfireIX I'm also not certain that Gettysburg is the best analogy in this case; I'd characterize the Plains of Abraham as Canada's Gettysburg. Fair enough. Appreciate that the Plains of Abraham wouldn't necessarily have quite the resonance south of the border, though. Originally Posted by SpitfireIX In terms of preserving battlefields in the US, there are two categories: Gettysburg, and all others. Gettysburg was the largest and bloodiest battle ever fought in North America; Lundy's Lane was the largest, bloodiest battle ever fought during the War of 1812 in North America and its practical lessons provide a direct link that facilitated what would enable Gettysburg Originally Posted by SpitfireIX This is not to say that there is no push-back against encroachment of development on other battlefields, but generally it's mainly from historians and American Civil War buffs. Any threat to Gettysburg is almost certain to provoke a much stronger backlash from the general public. And I suspect any larger populace pushback against infiltration onto Lundy's Lane will happen after-the-fact because we Canucks actively forget our history and experiences until its nearly too late. We pride ourselves generally peaceable though we're mean MFs when pushed to it. I guess I'm on this because I've realised how much Canada has the States to thank for its existence. If the War of 1812 hadn't played out just as it had, Manifest Destiny would've come to pass long before I was around to argue differently Fitz
	__________________ "Television is a circus, a carnival, a traveling troupe of acrobats, storytellers, dancers, singers, jugglers, side-show freaks, lion tamers, and football players. We're in the boredom-killing business! So if you want the truth... Go to God!" Howard Beale, "Network" Last edited by fitzgibbon; 25th January 2013 at 01:33 PM.

25th January 2013, 01:42 PM	#27
fitzgibbon Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: Just west of the centre of the universe Posts: 2,553	Originally Posted by theprestige Why is it important and worth preserving? It's a talisman to two nations; problem is that the nation where it lies would prefer carnivals and apartment buildings which don't have to be there particularly Originally Posted by theprestige What value is there in the place, besides as a good location to put housing? Surely people in Ontario would like places to live? We people can live anywhere; knowing what we know, why does an apartment complex need to go in that particular spot? Makes not a whit of sense to me Originally Posted by theprestige I half think that the best thing to be done with old battlefields is to promptly turn them to some purpose other than war. Those who don't learn from history....... Originally Posted by theprestige Seriously, what do you think is the problem, here? Say they put up some apartments, and put a plaque on the facade, so that interested passerby can see that yes, this apartment block was built on the site of part of a bloody battle. Would anybody reading the plaque think, "it sure is a shame that they didn't leave this lot vacant, so that we could come here and stare at the ground in imagine all the horror and violence of that day"? Well, there's a cemetery directly to the west and uphill from the school. If I were a senior, about the last thing I'd want to have in my balcony's eyeline is a cemetery. But he; that might just be me. Having been on and around the site, knowing the history I can imagine the tactical thoughts that must've been going through Winfield Scott's mind down at the bottom of the rise where the school building is just now and the thoughts going through Drummonds at the same time. I've been to the States' side of the river with its perfunctory acknowledgement of the War and I recgonise that shortcoming for what it is. A plaque in such a circumstance is a metal 'get off my back' by those with no historical perspective. It's a passive-aggressive mostly useless encumbrance that will be mostly ignored. One need only prospect the States' side of the Niagara to see that in play. Fitz
	__________________ "Television is a circus, a carnival, a traveling troupe of acrobats, storytellers, dancers, singers, jugglers, side-show freaks, lion tamers, and football players. We're in the boredom-killing business! So if you want the truth... Go to God!" Howard Beale, "Network"

25th January 2013, 01:43 PM	#28
fitzgibbon Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: Just west of the centre of the universe Posts: 2,553	Originally Posted by anglolawyer I think some are being unfair to the developers. Have you seen Canada? Hardly room to swing a cat. The inference must be this is the only possible place left for this desirable development. Fitz
	__________________ "Television is a circus, a carnival, a traveling troupe of acrobats, storytellers, dancers, singers, jugglers, side-show freaks, lion tamers, and football players. We're in the boredom-killing business! So if you want the truth... Go to God!" Howard Beale, "Network"

25th January 2013, 01:47 PM	#29
fitzgibbon Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: Just west of the centre of the universe Posts: 2,553	Originally Posted by Polaris There's a miniature golf course on Omaha Beach, Charlie Green sector. Bit of a sad comment. Obviously, not every battle of every war can or should be preserved for posterity. Otherwise we'd be worrying about tromping on important corpses all the time. Bit it's not all-or-nothing either. We have to recognise the important engagements and give them their due notice otherwise we run the risk of forgetting what it was that made them notable and important Fitz
	__________________ "Television is a circus, a carnival, a traveling troupe of acrobats, storytellers, dancers, singers, jugglers, side-show freaks, lion tamers, and football players. We're in the boredom-killing business! So if you want the truth... Go to God!" Howard Beale, "Network"

25th January 2013, 01:54 PM	#30
fitzgibbon Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: Just west of the centre of the universe Posts: 2,553	Originally Posted by dudalb God, I though conservatives were supposed to be about preserving America's Heritage. Guess I was wrong. As a CIvil War Buff who contributes yearly to Civil War Battlefield Preservatation Funds,I fully sympathize with Fitzgibbon. Maybe the Lundy's Lane supporters should contact some of the Major Civil War Battlefield Preservation groups for advice. I am betting they would be happy to help. We Canucks are a forgetful lot. We forget just how warlike we can be when pushed. We forget that it's war that pushed us to be. As for the Friends contacting and engaging other groups, I suspect that'd be a nonstarter. I think the local pols in Niagara Falls are more interested in the short term filthy lucre than the long term filthy lucre Fitz
	__________________ "Television is a circus, a carnival, a traveling troupe of acrobats, storytellers, dancers, singers, jugglers, side-show freaks, lion tamers, and football players. We're in the boredom-killing business! So if you want the truth... Go to God!" Howard Beale, "Network"

26th January 2013, 11:52 AM	#31
JeanFromBNA Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 399	According to the story from the link, developers aren't building apartments, the Kiwanis Club is converting the existing school building into 30 apartment units for seniors. The City is also selling some land to an adjacent funeral home, and preserving 2 acres for a park to commemorate the battle. The City Council and the Kiwanis Club agreed to give a preservation group six months to raise the $400,000 to buy it or even prove that they could raise that amount. In that time, the group raised just $25,000. So it seemed that either the preservation group didn't try very hard, or people didn't care enough, or both.

26th January 2013, 09:29 PM	#32
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 23,023	Gettysburg is fairly safe because so much of it is in the National Park,and the town makes it's living off the Tourist trade. In fact the NPS is actually removing some modern buildings from the park to make it more like it was in 1863, It's the battlefields that are located on private land and/or close to expanding cities that are in danger. The most endangered is Brandy Station, site of the largest cavalry battle of the war in 1863. It's located near Culpepper which has been changing from a quiet rural community into another Bedroom community for Washington DC.
	Last edited by dudalb; 26th January 2013 at 09:31 PM.

27th January 2013, 07:30 AM	#33
SpitfireIX Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA Posts: 2,832	Originally Posted by dudalb Gettysburg is fairly safe because so much of it is in the National Park,and the town makes it's living off the Tourist trade. In fact the NPS is actually removing some modern buildings from the park to make it more like it was in 1863, Both good points. Several years ago the NPS purchased and demolished a modern observation tower that some entrepreneur had built next to the park (with Union and Confederate reenactors firing cannons at the "target" just as the detonation circuits for the explosives were closed ). Fort McHenry^WP is actually in the same category as Gettysburg, because of the connection to "The Star-Spangled Banner", but there's no threat of anything happening to it because it's wholly owned by the US government, which is why I didn't mention it. Originally Posted by dudalb It's the battlefields that are located on private land and/or close to expanding cities that are in danger. The most endangered is Brandy Station, site of the largest cavalry battle of the war in 1863. It's located near Culpepper which has been changing from a quiet rural community into another Bedroom community for Washington DC. I've read that the only significant battlefield that isn't threatened somehow or another is Shiloh, because it's in the middle of nowhere, so no one is interested in developing the area.
	__________________ Handy responses to conspiracy theorists' claims: 1) "I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." --Charles Babbage 2) "This isn't right. This isn't even wrong." --Wolfgang Pauli 3) "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." --Inigo Montoya

27th January 2013, 11:35 AM	#34
Hazel Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Just outside of St. Louis also Posts: 1,269	Originally Posted by JeanFromBNA According to the story from the link, developers aren't building apartments, the Kiwanis Club is converting the existing school building into 30 apartment units for seniors. The City is also selling some land to an adjacent funeral home, and preserving 2 acres for a park to commemorate the battle. The City Council and the Kiwanis Club agreed to give a preservation group six months to raise the $400,000 to buy it or even prove that they could raise that amount. In that time, the group raised just $25,000. So it seemed that either the preservation group didn't try very hard, or people didn't care enough, or both. They are putting a senior citizen apartment building near a funeral home? Now, that is ----------- (censored!).
	__________________ Disbelief in magic can force a poor soul into believing in government and business. (Tom Robbins, 1976)

27th January 2013, 12:24 PM	#35
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 23,023	Originally Posted by SpitfireIX Both good points. Several years ago the NPS purchased and demolished a modern observation tower that some entrepreneur had built next to the park (with Union and Confederate reenactors firing cannons at the "target" just as the detonation circuits for the explosives were closed ). Fort McHenry^WP is actually in the same category as Gettysburg, because of the connection to "The Star-Spangled Banner", but there's no threat of anything happening to it because it's wholly owned by the US government, which is why I didn't mention it. I've read that the only significant battlefield that isn't threatened somehow or another is Shiloh, because it's in the middle of nowhere, so no one is interested in developing the area. Which was the case with several of the Northren Virginia battle sites, before the the Washington Suberbs begun their massive growth in the 80's.