Oh FFS Europe!

NWO Sentryman · 25th January 2013, 04:22 AM

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2013...n-rights-seat/

Why the hell have they allowed these nazis into office? The council of Europe is now a sick joke in my book.

Hercules Rockefeller · 25th January 2013, 04:49 AM

Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2013...n-rights-seat/

Why the hell have they allowed these nazis into office? The council of Europe is now a sick joke in my book.

It's not illegal to be a Nazi. From your link:

Quote:

The legal challenge, meanwhile, was opposed by Jean-Claude Mignon of France’s conservative European People’s Party (EPP,) one of the most dominant in the European Parliament, who said that the pair had been elected following what has been considered democratic elections. “It is not the job of the Assembly to tell the Hungarians or the Greeks ‘You voted correctly,’ or ‘You didn’t vote correctly,” he was quoted as saying.

angrysoba · 25th January 2013, 05:06 AM

Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2013...n-rights-seat/

Why the hell have they allowed these nazis into office? The council of Europe is now a sick joke in my book.

Well, if a US party denounced ***** minority group as sub-human would it be prohibited from taking office?

Darat · 25th January 2013, 05:16 AM

Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2013...n-rights-seat/

Why the hell have they allowed these nazis into office? The council of Europe is now a sick joke in my book.

Did you not read to the end of the article:

Quote:

.. Jean-Claude Mignon of France’s conservative European People’s Party (EPP,) .... “It is not the job of the Assembly to tell the Hungarians or the Greeks ‘You voted correctly,’ or ‘You didn’t vote correctly,” .....

NWO Sentryman · 25th January 2013, 05:39 AM

but why give seats to them in the first place?

angrysoba · 25th January 2013, 05:41 AM

Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman

but why give seats to them in the first place?

You're not making any sense.

What do you mean "Why give seats to them"?

DC · 25th January 2013, 05:44 AM

Quote:

but why give seats to them in the first place?

because it would be confusing if they had to stand there and all otheres sit.

Agatha · 25th January 2013, 06:00 AM

I know! Can you believe that people had the temerity to vote, in democratic elections, for someone with whom you disagree! You should do something about this, like, um, banning elections and installing your own dictatorship..

bjornart · 25th January 2013, 06:43 AM

Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman

but why give seats to them in the first place?

The seats are Greece's. Do you think Greece shouldn't be allowed on the European Council? Greece fills the seats with members of the Greek parliament in a manner left up to them.

Ziggurat · 25th January 2013, 10:37 AM

What is outrageous here is not that the law permits this party to take seats, given the results of the election. The outrage is that this is what so many Greeks want. But I don't see any easy remedy for that fundamental problem. Simply prohibiting the party from taking seats isn't likely to work in the long run.

I will, however, leave you with a quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Wolfe

Fascism is forever descending on America--but it always seems to land in Europe.

uke2se · 27th January 2013, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

The outrage is that this is what so many Greeks want.

It's sadly not unusual for what we in Sweden call "protest parties" to get loads of votes in times of economic hardship. I have a very local example:

In my home town of Gothenburg, a road-tax has been instituted, meaning that if you drive on any of the main roads, you have to pay a nominal fee. This has affected people living on the outskirts of the city much harder than those living in the town center, and several districts are now polling heavily towards Sverige Demokraterna - a formerly neo-Nazi party, all because people are pissed about the road-tax.

spin0 · 27th January 2013, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by uke2se

It's sadly not unusual for what we in Sweden call "protest parties" to get loads of votes in times of economic hardship.

Exactly. Golden Dawn started to gain popularity only when recession began to hit hard in Greece.

OTOH, one could ask why there are not nazis in the parliament of Ireland, Portugal or Spain?

Originally Posted by uke2se

I have a very local example:

In my home town of Gothenburg, a road-tax has been instituted, meaning that if you drive on any of the main roads, you have to pay a nominal fee. This has affected people living on the outskirts of the city much harder than those living in the town center, and several districts are now polling heavily towards Sverige Demokraterna - a formerly neo-Nazi party, all because people are pissed about the road-tax.

Yep, that's how populism works.

I think there's something postmodern there too: it's not ideology (modern thing) but it's the choose-what-you-want-smörgåsboard that gains popularity. It's easy for such parties to gain popularity by representing themselves as opposing something minor but annoying - without representing their core ideology (e.g. fascim/nazism). So without displaying themselves as nazis they can represent themselves as "fighters for freedom" against a minor inconvience, a molehill which will be made into a rhetorical mountain.

Having a core ideology is modern, pick-and-choose is postmodern. Here in Finland our populist "we're not racists, but"-party does not and indeed cannot subscribe to any core ideology (modern thing). It represents itself as a smörgåsboard of ideologies from ultra-libertarism to socialism and from egalitarism to racism yet always denying it's any of these things when asked. Their party agenda is a litany of vague statements (some conflicting) which do not adhere to any single ideology, but is a collection of items representing various ideologies. Therefore I see it as a very postmodern party, though they are opposed of anything postmodern including postmodern art - in their vocabulary postmodern is a curse word, go figure.

Yet the inbuilt über-nationalism common for these parties is not post-modern, but some old-fashioned romantic irreal daydreaming about the way things actually never were.

WildCat · 27th January 2013, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

What is outrageous here is not that the law permits this party to take seats, given the results of the election. The outrage is that this is what so many Greeks want. But I don't see any easy remedy for that fundamental problem. Simply prohibiting the party from taking seats isn't likely to work in the long run.

I will, however, leave you with a quote:

This is why I'm always a bit bewildered when some people here claim that US politics is far to the right of European politics, that US Dems would be a far-right party in Europe.

But then those Europeans crack down on free speech rights and elect actual Nazis to their parliaments.

Mycroft · 27th January 2013, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

This is why I'm always a bit bewildered when some people here claim that US politics is far to the right of European politics, that US Dems would be a far-right party in Europe.

But then those Europeans crack down on free speech rights and elect actual Nazis to their parliaments.

I was thinking something pretty similar the other day when watching something on the anti-Gay rights protests in France. Europeans love to criticize the US, but can't seem to identify the problems in their own governments.

uke2se · 27th January 2013, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

This is why I'm always a bit bewildered when some people here claim that US politics is far to the right of European politics, that US Dems would be a far-right party in Europe.

But then those Europeans crack down on free speech rights and elect actual Nazis to their parliaments.

It's not that strange. Liberalism is a center-right position in many European countries. After all, politics isn't a binary system.

DC · 27th January 2013, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by Mycroft

I was thinking something pretty similar the other day when watching something on the anti-Gay rights protests in France. Europeans love to criticize the US, but can't seem to identify the problems in their own governments.

can you explain that in more detail?

Hercules Rockefeller · 27th January 2013, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

This is why I'm always a bit bewildered when some people here claim that US politics is far to the right of European politics, that US Dems would be a far-right party in Europe.

But then those Europeans crack down on free speech rights and elect actual Nazis to their parliaments.

Yes, Greece = entire Europe just like Alabama = the entire US.

Ryokan · 27th January 2013, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Oh FFS Europe!

Why am I being blamed for this?

carlitos · 27th January 2013, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by Ryokan

Why am I being blamed for this?

Or these guys?

WildCat · 27th January 2013, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller

Yes, Greece = entire Europe just like Alabama = the entire US.

Greece, Hungary, and apparently Sweden have seen a rise in neo-Nazi parties. The UK jailing people for comments made online, Holocaust denial laws in several EU cuntries. Abortion ban in Ireland. Don't even get me started on Russia or Belarus.

And oh yeah, a genocide attempt just 15 years ago.

Not confined to just Greece.

SezMe · 27th January 2013, 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by spin0

Exactly.... <snip>

Is there a prize for using the word "postmodern" eight times in one post?

SezMe · 27th January 2013, 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Greece, Hungary, and apparently Sweden have seen a rise in neo-Nazi parties. The UK jailing people for comments made online, Holocaust denial laws in several EU cuntries. Abortion ban in Ireland. Don't even get me started on Russia or Belarus.

Can I get you started on the US? Something like a four-fold increase in far right militia/hate/dominionismetc. groups in the last few years. Plus more than one state has effectively banned abortion. People, glass houses, etc.

WildCat · 27th January 2013, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by SezMe

Can I get you started on the US? Something like a four-fold increase in far right militia/hate/dominionismetc. groups in the last few years. Plus more than one state has effectively banned abortion. People, glass houses, etc.

Abortion isn't actually banned anywhere in the US. And no neo-nazi parties have been elected anywhere.

No dictators, free speech remains intact, and no one in power talking about "ethnic cleansing".

eta: oh, and let's see you document this "four-fold increase in far right militia/hate/dominionismetc. groups in the last few years".

spin0 · 27th January 2013, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by SezMe

Is there a prize for using the word "postmodern" eight times in one post?

Oh, you counted them. Well Cheers!

spin0 · 27th January 2013, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by Mycroft

I was thinking something pretty similar the other day when watching something on the anti-Gay rights protests in France. Europeans love to criticize the US, but can't seem to identify the problems in their own governments.

anti-Gay rights protests in France -> Europeans can't seem to identify the problems in their own governments

but but ... a protest is not a gummint.

Now I'm confused. Could you please elaborate.

Wanna see a related problem on a parliamentary level within EU?
Poland's lower house of parliament rejected three draft laws on civil partnerships on Friday.

Cinnamon Life · 27th January 2013, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Greece, Hungary, and apparently Sweden have seen a rise in neo-Nazi parties. The UK jailing people for comments made online, Holocaust denial laws in several EU cuntries. Abortion ban in Ireland. Don't even get me started on Russia or Belarus.

And oh yeah, a genocide attempt just 15 years ago.

Not confined to just Greece.

Don't forget the BNP and that other right wing racist movements in the UK, Austria, etc. The funny thing is, these countries are like 90% white! A minuscule minority population has them so frazzled as to elect Nazis and have real hate groups with popular political support. Can you imagine if these countries were 1/3 black and hispanic, and shared a huge border with Mexico that allowed tens of millions of illegals in? Hitler would probably rise again.

Even at sporting events in Western Europe black players can't play a damn game without some Nazis in the stands using racial slurs and harassing them the whole game. Players are pelted with bananas, harassed, even to the point where they walk off the field.

Also don't forget that they still have Kings and Queens as heads of state and state churches/religions.

Hercules Rockefeller · 27th January 2013, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Greece, Hungary, and apparently Sweden have seen a rise in neo-Nazi parties. The UK jailing people for comments made online, Holocaust denial laws in several EU cuntries. Abortion ban in Ireland. Don't even get me started on Russia or Belarus.

And oh yeah, a genocide attempt just 15 years ago.

Not confined to just Greece.

You seem to not understand they are individual countries. You know, like Guatemala isn't the US.

WildCat · 27th January 2013, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller

You seem to not understand they are individual countries. You know, like Guatemala isn't the US.

The claim made often on this board is that even liberal US pols would be considered far right in Europe.

I suppose you're going for a "no true European country" defense?

spin0 · 27th January 2013, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

The claim made often on this board is that even liberal US pols would be considered far right in Europe.

[citation needed] * times multiple for "often"

spin0 · 27th January 2013, 05:36 PM

Some maps on popularity of far right parties in EU.

Germany (ex-eastern): http://www.spiegel.de/international/...68-449405.html

France: http://www.la-croix.com/var/bayard/s...e-fn_large.jpg

UK: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereport...np_uk_blog.gif

Generally popularity correlates with low-income.

Anyone have more related maps?

PhantomWolf · 27th January 2013, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2013...n-rights-seat/

Why the hell have they allowed these nazis into office? The council of Europe is now a sick joke in my book.

Are you suggesting that people with political opinions you dislike should be banned from politics?

SezMe · 27th January 2013, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Abortion isn't actually banned anywhere in the US.

Note I used the word "effectively". Which makes my statement true.

Originally Posted by WildCat

eta: oh, and let's see you document this "four-fold increase in far right militia/hate/dominionismetc. groups in the last few years".

Oops, my bad. Good for your skepticism. I got the number right but the cause wrong:

Quote:

Since Mr Obama took office, the rate of threats against the president has increased 400 per cent from the 3,000 a year or so under President George W. Bush, according to Ronald Kessler, author of In the President's Secret Service.

Which is not to say there hasn't been a notable increase in hate groups:

Quote:

Fueled by belligerent tactics and publicity stunts, the number of hate groups operating in the United States rose from 762 in 2004 to 803 last year, capping an increase of fully 33% over the five years since 2000.

DC · 27th January 2013, 05:44 PM

politics is not a spectrum from left to right, its a spectrum in all possible directions. with different kinds of extreme groups.
neo nazis are not comparabl with the tea party for example. yet in europe we would put them both relatively closely on this nonsensical left right spectrum. but they are very different even if there might be some overlap. but neo nazis also have some overlap with leftwing (or better socialist) extreme positions.
its al much more complicated as it is debated here.

the US and Europe has its problems with extreme groups. In europe the political system is often much diffrent from the US with a sort of 2 party system. So in Europe, extreme groups have a higher chance to get political power even if they are not one of the 2 major parties.

spin0 · 27th January 2013, 05:48 PM

This just in:
Silvio Berlusconi praises Benito Mussolini for backing Hitler, says he ‘did good’ despite anti-Jewish racial laws

Oh Silvio. You're such a trollusconi. Just as charming as intelligent.

"Berlusconi also defended Mussolini for allying himself with Hitler, saying he likely reasoned that it would be better to be on the winning side."

Smart choice right there.

SezMe · 27th January 2013, 08:17 PM

Wasn't Berlusconi making noises about running for PM again? If so, he can kiss that idea goodbye.

KDLarsen · 27th January 2013, 09:34 PM

Been there done that, remember in 1999 when Austria was formally sanctioned for electing Jörg Haider and the FPÖ?

Originally Posted by SezMe

Wasn't Berlusconi making noises about running for PM again? If so, he can kiss that idea goodbye.

Yes. And why? It's not like it's the first gaffe Berlusconi has ever made, yet people continue voting for him. Go look up the Videocracy documentary and you'll see why he's so popular with some people.

The Don · 28th January 2013, 02:20 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

The claim made often on this board is that even liberal US pols would be considered far right in Europe.

I suppose you're going for a "no true European country" defense?

Not necessarily, but the mainstream political parties in most European countries are in favour of policies that would be considered very left wing by most U.S. voters.

I only know about the UK where the Labour, Liberal Democrat and Conservative parties are all to the left of the U.S. Democrat party. Individual Members of Parliament and some party activists may hold more right wing views but party policy is pretty centrist (for all we leftists try to portray them as right-wing monsters).

uke2se · 28th January 2013, 02:45 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

Not necessarily, but the mainstream political parties in most European countries are in favour of policies that would be considered very left wing by most U.S. voters.

I only know about the UK where the Labour, Liberal Democrat and Conservative parties are all to the left of the U.S. Democrat party. Individual Members of Parliament and some party activists may hold more right wing views but party policy is pretty centrist (for all we leftists try to portray them as right-wing monsters).

This. As I said, it's not hard to understand, unless your agenda is to paint Europe out as something it isn't.

angrysoba · 28th January 2013, 05:59 AM

Originally Posted by spin0

"Berlusconi also defended Mussolini for allying himself with Hitler, saying he likely reasoned that it would be better to be on the winning side."

Wow! How much wrong could Silvio put into that comment?

angrysoba · 28th January 2013, 06:02 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

The claim made often on this board is that even liberal US pols would be considered far right in Europe.

I suppose you're going for a "no true European country" defense?

I've certainly heard a lot of people say that both US parties would be on the right of the spectrum. It is sometimes said in Britain that the Republicans are like the Conservative Party and the Democrats are like the Conservative Party. But that wouldn't make either of the parties far right.

I've heard it said that some Americans have also called the Republicans, particularly the Tea Party, far right. I seem to recall George W. Bush being referred to as some kind of fascist dictator by a lot of Americans. Did this not happen?

25th January 2013, 04:22 AM	#1
NWO Sentryman Proud NWO Gatekeeper Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Quantum Gate to the NWO Posts: 3,776	Oh FFS Europe! http://greece.greekreporter.com/2013...n-rights-seat/ Why the hell have they allowed these nazis into office? The council of Europe is now a sick joke in my book.
	__________________ If I now say "dominoes", you won't think "pizza". Will you? - FireGarden on the Middle East

25th January 2013, 04:49 AM	#2
Hercules Rockefeller Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Ponylandistan Posts: 1,390	Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman http://greece.greekreporter.com/2013...n-rights-seat/ Why the hell have they allowed these nazis into office? The council of Europe is now a sick joke in my book. It's not illegal to be a Nazi. From your link: Quote: The legal challenge, meanwhile, was opposed by Jean-Claude Mignon of France’s conservative European People’s Party (EPP,) one of the most dominant in the European Parliament, who said that the pair had been elected following what has been considered democratic elections. “It is not the job of the Assembly to tell the Hungarians or the Greeks ‘You voted correctly,’ or ‘You didn’t vote correctly,” he was quoted as saying.
	__________________ Quantum physics means that anything can happen at anytime and for no reason. Also, eat plenty of oatmeal, and animals never had a war! - Deepak Chopra

25th January 2013, 05:16 AM	#4
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,804	Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman http://greece.greekreporter.com/2013...n-rights-seat/ Why the hell have they allowed these nazis into office? The council of Europe is now a sick joke in my book. Did you not read to the end of the article: Quote: .. Jean-Claude Mignon of France’s conservative European People’s Party (EPP,) .... “It is not the job of the Assembly to tell the Hungarians or the Greeks ‘You voted correctly,’ or ‘You didn’t vote correctly,” .....
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

25th January 2013, 05:39 AM	#5
NWO Sentryman Proud NWO Gatekeeper Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Quantum Gate to the NWO Posts: 3,776	but why give seats to them in the first place?
	__________________ If I now say "dominoes", you won't think "pizza". Will you? - FireGarden on the Middle East

25th January 2013, 05:44 AM	#7
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,675	Quote: but why give seats to them in the first place? because it would be confusing if they had to stand there and all otheres sit.
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

25th January 2013, 05:06 AM	#3
angrysoba Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 8,587	Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman http://greece.greekreporter.com/2013...n-rights-seat/ Why the hell have they allowed these nazis into office? The council of Europe is now a sick joke in my book. Well, if a US party denounced ***** minority group as sub-human would it be prohibited from taking office?

25th January 2013, 05:41 AM	#6
angrysoba Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 8,587	Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman but why give seats to them in the first place? You're not making any sense. What do you mean "Why give seats to them"?

25th January 2013, 06:00 AM	#8
Agatha Winking at the Moon Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: UK Posts: 4,226	I know! Can you believe that people had the temerity to vote, in democratic elections, for someone with whom you disagree! You should do something about this, like, um, banning elections and installing your own dictatorship..
	__________________ People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... timey wimey... stuff.

25th January 2013, 06:43 AM	#9
bjornart Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 2,397	Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman but why give seats to them in the first place? The seats are Greece's. Do you think Greece shouldn't be allowed on the European Council? Greece fills the seats with members of the Greek parliament in a manner left up to them.
bjornart Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 2,397	__________________ Well, I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU LIKE TO BELIEVE, GODDAMMIT! I DEAL IN THE FACTS! -Cecil Adams

25th January 2013, 10:37 AM	#10
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 26,219	What is outrageous here is not that the law permits this party to take seats, given the results of the election. The outrage is that this is what so many Greeks want. But I don't see any easy remedy for that fundamental problem. Simply prohibiting the party from taking seats isn't likely to work in the long run. I will, however, leave you with a quote: Originally Posted by Tom Wolfe Fascism is forever descending on America--but it always seems to land in Europe.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

27th January 2013, 11:38 AM	#11
uke2se Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 5,134	Originally Posted by Ziggurat The outrage is that this is what so many Greeks want. It's sadly not unusual for what we in Sweden call "protest parties" to get loads of votes in times of economic hardship. I have a very local example: In my home town of Gothenburg, a road-tax has been instituted, meaning that if you drive on any of the main roads, you have to pay a nominal fee. This has affected people living on the outskirts of the city much harder than those living in the town center, and several districts are now polling heavily towards Sverige Demokraterna - a formerly neo-Nazi party, all because people are pissed about the road-tax.
uke2se Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 5,134

27th January 2013, 12:35 PM	#12
spin0 Muse Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Finland Posts: 606	Originally Posted by uke2se It's sadly not unusual for what we in Sweden call "protest parties" to get loads of votes in times of economic hardship. Exactly. Golden Dawn started to gain popularity only when recession began to hit hard in Greece. OTOH, one could ask why there are not nazis in the parliament of Ireland, Portugal or Spain? Originally Posted by uke2se I have a very local example: In my home town of Gothenburg, a road-tax has been instituted, meaning that if you drive on any of the main roads, you have to pay a nominal fee. This has affected people living on the outskirts of the city much harder than those living in the town center, and several districts are now polling heavily towards Sverige Demokraterna - a formerly neo-Nazi party, all because people are pissed about the road-tax. Yep, that's how populism works. I think there's something postmodern there too: it's not ideology (modern thing) but it's the choose-what-you-want-smörgåsboard that gains popularity. It's easy for such parties to gain popularity by representing themselves as opposing something minor but annoying - without representing their core ideology (e.g. fascim/nazism). So without displaying themselves as nazis they can represent themselves as "fighters for freedom" against a minor inconvience, a molehill which will be made into a rhetorical mountain. Having a core ideology is modern, pick-and-choose is postmodern. Here in Finland our populist "we're not racists, but"-party does not and indeed cannot subscribe to any core ideology (modern thing). It represents itself as a smörgåsboard of ideologies from ultra-libertarism to socialism and from egalitarism to racism yet always denying it's any of these things when asked. Their party agenda is a litany of vague statements (some conflicting) which do not adhere to any single ideology, but is a collection of items representing various ideologies. Therefore I see it as a very postmodern party, though they are opposed of anything postmodern including postmodern art - in their vocabulary postmodern is a curse word, go figure. Yet the inbuilt über-nationalism common for these parties is not post-modern, but some old-fashioned romantic irreal daydreaming about the way things actually never were.
	Last edited by spin0; 27th January 2013 at 12:54 PM.

27th January 2013, 12:48 PM	#13
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,109	Originally Posted by Ziggurat What is outrageous here is not that the law permits this party to take seats, given the results of the election. The outrage is that this is what so many Greeks want. But I don't see any easy remedy for that fundamental problem. Simply prohibiting the party from taking seats isn't likely to work in the long run. I will, however, leave you with a quote: This is why I'm always a bit bewildered when some people here claim that US politics is far to the right of European politics, that US Dems would be a far-right party in Europe. But then those Europeans crack down on free speech rights and elect actual Nazis to their parliaments.

27th January 2013, 02:45 PM	#14
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 16,106	Originally Posted by WildCat This is why I'm always a bit bewildered when some people here claim that US politics is far to the right of European politics, that US Dems would be a far-right party in Europe. But then those Europeans crack down on free speech rights and elect actual Nazis to their parliaments. I was thinking something pretty similar the other day when watching something on the anti-Gay rights protests in France. Europeans love to criticize the US, but can't seem to identify the problems in their own governments.
	__________________ Surely Israel is the party to blame? -a_unique_person I do have Mycroft on ignore, he is pretty much the Matt Giwer of your side. -a_unique_person Palestinian Refugees

27th January 2013, 02:55 PM	#15
uke2se Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 5,134	Originally Posted by WildCat This is why I'm always a bit bewildered when some people here claim that US politics is far to the right of European politics, that US Dems would be a far-right party in Europe. But then those Europeans crack down on free speech rights and elect actual Nazis to their parliaments. It's not that strange. Liberalism is a center-right position in many European countries. After all, politics isn't a binary system.
uke2se Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 5,134

27th January 2013, 03:02 PM	#16
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,675	Originally Posted by Mycroft I was thinking something pretty similar the other day when watching something on the anti-Gay rights protests in France. Europeans love to criticize the US, but can't seem to identify the problems in their own governments. can you explain that in more detail?
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

27th January 2013, 03:07 PM	#17
Hercules Rockefeller Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Ponylandistan Posts: 1,390	Originally Posted by WildCat This is why I'm always a bit bewildered when some people here claim that US politics is far to the right of European politics, that US Dems would be a far-right party in Europe. But then those Europeans crack down on free speech rights and elect actual Nazis to their parliaments. Yes, Greece = entire Europe just like Alabama = the entire US.
	__________________ Quantum physics means that anything can happen at anytime and for no reason. Also, eat plenty of oatmeal, and animals never had a war! - Deepak Chopra

27th January 2013, 03:09 PM	#18
Ryokan Insert something funny here Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Norway Posts: 8,198	Quote: Oh FFS Europe! Why am I being blamed for this?

27th January 2013, 03:49 PM	#19
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 11,550	Originally Posted by Ryokan Why am I being blamed for this? Or these guys?

27th January 2013, 04:19 PM	#20
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,109	Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller Yes, Greece = entire Europe just like Alabama = the entire US. Greece, Hungary, and apparently Sweden have seen a rise in neo-Nazi parties. The UK jailing people for comments made online, Holocaust denial laws in several EU cuntries. Abortion ban in Ireland. Don't even get me started on Russia or Belarus. And oh yeah, a genocide attempt just 15 years ago. Not confined to just Greece.
	Last edited by WildCat; 27th January 2013 at 04:20 PM.

27th January 2013, 04:25 PM	#21
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 16,367	Originally Posted by spin0 Exactly.... <snip> Is there a prize for using the word "postmodern" eight times in one post?

27th January 2013, 04:28 PM	#22
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 16,367	Originally Posted by WildCat Greece, Hungary, and apparently Sweden have seen a rise in neo-Nazi parties. The UK jailing people for comments made online, Holocaust denial laws in several EU cuntries. Abortion ban in Ireland. Don't even get me started on Russia or Belarus. Can I get you started on the US? Something like a four-fold increase in far right militia/hate/dominionismetc. groups in the last few years. Plus more than one state has effectively banned abortion. People, glass houses, etc.

27th January 2013, 04:34 PM	#23
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,109	Originally Posted by SezMe Can I get you started on the US? Something like a four-fold increase in far right militia/hate/dominionismetc. groups in the last few years. Plus more than one state has effectively banned abortion. People, glass houses, etc. Abortion isn't actually banned anywhere in the US. And no neo-nazi parties have been elected anywhere. No dictators, free speech remains intact, and no one in power talking about "ethnic cleansing". eta: oh, and let's see you document this "four-fold increase in far right militia/hate/dominionismetc. groups in the last few years".

27th January 2013, 04:51 PM	#24
spin0 Muse Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Finland Posts: 606	Originally Posted by SezMe Is there a prize for using the word "postmodern" eight times in one post? Oh, you counted them. Well Cheers!

27th January 2013, 05:05 PM	#25
spin0 Muse Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Finland Posts: 606	Originally Posted by Mycroft I was thinking something pretty similar the other day when watching something on the anti-Gay rights protests in France. Europeans love to criticize the US, but can't seem to identify the problems in their own governments. anti-Gay rights protests in France -> Europeans can't seem to identify the problems in their own governments but but ... a protest is not a gummint. Now I'm confused. Could you please elaborate. Wanna see a related problem on a parliamentary level within EU? Poland's lower house of parliament rejected three draft laws on civil partnerships on Friday.

27th January 2013, 05:07 PM	#26
Cinnamon Life Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Syracuse NY Posts: 277	Originally Posted by WildCat Greece, Hungary, and apparently Sweden have seen a rise in neo-Nazi parties. The UK jailing people for comments made online, Holocaust denial laws in several EU cuntries. Abortion ban in Ireland. Don't even get me started on Russia or Belarus. And oh yeah, a genocide attempt just 15 years ago. Not confined to just Greece. Don't forget the BNP and that other right wing racist movements in the UK, Austria, etc. The funny thing is, these countries are like 90% white! A minuscule minority population has them so frazzled as to elect Nazis and have real hate groups with popular political support. Can you imagine if these countries were 1/3 black and hispanic, and shared a huge border with Mexico that allowed tens of millions of illegals in? Hitler would probably rise again. Even at sporting events in Western Europe black players can't play a damn game without some Nazis in the stands using racial slurs and harassing them the whole game. Players are pelted with bananas, harassed, even to the point where they walk off the field. Also don't forget that they still have Kings and Queens as heads of state and state churches/religions.
	Last edited by Cinnamon Life; 27th January 2013 at 05:13 PM.

27th January 2013, 05:22 PM	#28
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,109	Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller You seem to not understand they are individual countries. You know, like Guatemala isn't the US. The claim made often on this board is that even liberal US pols would be considered far right in Europe. I suppose you're going for a "no true European country" defense?

27th January 2013, 05:28 PM	#29
spin0 Muse Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Finland Posts: 606	Originally Posted by WildCat The claim made often on this board is that even liberal US pols would be considered far right in Europe. [citation needed] * times multiple for "often"

27th January 2013, 05:36 PM	#30
spin0 Muse Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Finland Posts: 606	Some maps on popularity of far right parties in EU. Germany (ex-eastern): http://www.spiegel.de/international/...68-449405.html France: http://www.la-croix.com/var/bayard/s...e-fn_large.jpg UK: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereport...np_uk_blog.gif Generally popularity correlates with low-income. Anyone have more related maps?

27th January 2013, 05:40 PM	#31
PhantomWolf Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Lost Deimos Moon Base Posts: 9,962	Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman http://greece.greekreporter.com/2013...n-rights-seat/ Why the hell have they allowed these nazis into office? The council of Europe is now a sick joke in my book. Are you suggesting that people with political opinions you dislike should be banned from politics?
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) My Apollo Page. 1 on 1 Debating Forum for Skeptics and sceptics.

27th January 2013, 05:42 PM	#32
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 16,367	Originally Posted by WildCat Abortion isn't actually banned anywhere in the US. Note I used the word "effectively". Which makes my statement true. Originally Posted by WildCat eta: oh, and let's see you document this "four-fold increase in far right militia/hate/dominionismetc. groups in the last few years". Oops, my bad. Good for your skepticism. I got the number right but the cause wrong: Quote: Since Mr Obama took office, the rate of threats against the president has increased 400 per cent from the 3,000 a year or so under President George W. Bush, according to Ronald Kessler, author of In the President's Secret Service. Which is not to say there hasn't been a notable increase in hate groups: Quote: Fueled by belligerent tactics and publicity stunts, the number of hate groups operating in the United States rose from 762 in 2004 to 803 last year, capping an increase of fully 33% over the five years since 2000.

27th January 2013, 05:44 PM	#33
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,675	politics is not a spectrum from left to right, its a spectrum in all possible directions. with different kinds of extreme groups. neo nazis are not comparabl with the tea party for example. yet in europe we would put them both relatively closely on this nonsensical left right spectrum. but they are very different even if there might be some overlap. but neo nazis also have some overlap with leftwing (or better socialist) extreme positions. its al much more complicated as it is debated here. the US and Europe has its problems with extreme groups. In europe the political system is often much diffrent from the US with a sort of 2 party system. So in Europe, extreme groups have a higher chance to get political power even if they are not one of the 2 major parties.
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it Last edited by DC; 27th January 2013 at 05:47 PM.

27th January 2013, 05:48 PM	#34
spin0 Muse Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Finland Posts: 606	This just in: Silvio Berlusconi praises Benito Mussolini for backing Hitler, says he ‘did good’ despite anti-Jewish racial laws Oh Silvio. You're such a trollusconi. Just as charming as intelligent. "Berlusconi also defended Mussolini for allying himself with Hitler, saying he likely reasoned that it would be better to be on the winning side." Smart choice right there.
	Last edited by spin0; 27th January 2013 at 06:30 PM.

27th January 2013, 08:17 PM	#35
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 16,367	Wasn't Berlusconi making noises about running for PM again? If so, he can kiss that idea goodbye.

27th January 2013, 09:34 PM	#36
KDLarsen Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Lord's Posts: 1,943	Been there done that, remember in 1999 when Austria was formally sanctioned for electing Jörg Haider and the FPÖ? Originally Posted by SezMe Wasn't Berlusconi making noises about running for PM again? If so, he can kiss that idea goodbye. Yes. And why? It's not like it's the first gaffe Berlusconi has ever made, yet people continue voting for him. Go look up the Videocracy documentary and you'll see why he's so popular with some people.
	Last edited by KDLarsen; 27th January 2013 at 09:37 PM.