Ban long kitchen knives?

[Mudcat]

Originally Posted by Bikewer

I imagine my 8" Henckles carving knife would be a pretty efficient weapon... It's straight, so it'd be a dagger rather than a slasher, but still...
A surprising number of criminals use kitchen knives because they are readily accessible or can be picked up for next to nothing at any thrift store. Also stolen steak-house knives and ratty old "hunting" knives...
In fact, in my 40+ years as a police officer, I've never seen anything like a quality "tactical" knife in the hands of a bad guy.
Why would they pop 150 or 200 bucks for a top-grade knife only to toss it down a storm drain if that pesky squad car stops?
The weapons of homicide include a very wide variety of tools and implements....Lug wrenches are popular, as are hatchets, hammers, pieces of pipe, screwdrivers... You name it, it's probably been used to kill somebody.

The problem is that most of those tools have more practical uses for which they are designed for rather than to kill someone.

Guns, on the other hand...

[W.D.Clinger]

I've read the journal article:

Emma Hern, Will Glazebrook, Mike Beckett. Reducing knife crime: We need to ban the sale of long pointed kitchen knives. Editorial, BMJ volume 330, 28 May 2005, pages 1221-1222.

That isn't a research article. It's an editorial, barely one page long.

It isn't even a good editorial. Several members of the JREF Forum have made stronger arguments, even in the gun control threads. Yes, it's that bad.

Some of the highlights and lowlights:

Originally Posted by Hern, Glazebrook, Beckett

Unfortunately, no data seem to have been collected to indicate how often kitchen knives are used in stabbings, but our own experience and that of police officers and pathologists we have spoken to indicates that they are used in at least half of all cases.

That seems to be true for the US as well: no solid data, but the available data suggests kitchen knives are used in about half of all knife homicides.

Originally Posted by Hern, Glazebrook, Beckett

Also, with repeated sharpening of a flat blade, a pointed tip invariably develops.

Untrue. On the other hand, repeated sharpening does tend to blunt the tip of a pointed blade.

Originally Posted by Hern, Glazebrook, Beckett

However, now domestic blades do not need sharpening,

Untrue. Even the best steel blades will dull eventually, and few of the kitchen knives sold today use premium steel. I've had to resharpen all of mine.

Originally Posted by Hern, Glazebrook, Beckett

We contacted 10 chefs in the UK....None gave a reason why the long pointed knife was essential.

"Some commented that a point is useful", but it is apparently the opinion of the editorial's authors that the reasons given by the chefs do not imply the point is essential. The editorial's authors also contacted one manufacturer, which in the opinion of the editorial's authors "could give no functional reason why long pointed knives are needed."

Originally Posted by Hern, Glazebrook, Beckett

Government action to ban the sale of such knives....would make it harder to justify carrying such knives and prosecution easier.

Carrying long kitchen knives (without good reason) is already forbidden by the UK government. Absent special circumstances, the UK forbids the carrying of knives with a cutting edge longer than three inches.

In summary, that 2005 editorial is yet another example of proposing a legislative solution that would have no measurable effect on the problem it pretends to address.

I looked, and it turns out that all of my kitchen knives are pointed. (I used to have a couple of non-pointy long knives, but gave them away.)



That big chef's knife would be just as useful to me without its point. To that extent, I agree with the authors.

I use that carving knife only on ceremonial occasions (e.g. Thanksgiving). Its point is useful when dissecting a cooked turkey. I guess I could set down the carving knife and use a smaller knife for the tricky parts, but that would detract from the ceremony.

I've used the point of that carbon steel utility knife so much that it's gotten a little rounded at the tip. I'd like to think the authors weren't proposing to ban the sale of pointy knives with blades as short as that one (five inches), but they never actually say what they consider to be a long knife.

After all, the point of this editorial (pardon the pun) was to make its authors feel good about themselves, and to pad their vitas.

It wasn't about making the world any safer.

[Toontown]

Unnecessary. Simply give each Briton a thorough psychological examination - a measure which is long overdue in any case.

All those found prone to violent impulses should receive violence-suppressing brain implants.

Those who complain about the draconian nature of the measure can be reminded that they have only themselves to blame for their violent stabbing urges, and in fact should be grateful that the violent impulses are being suppressed. They would not like the concentration camps.

[Autolite]

Originally Posted by Mudcat

The problem is that most of those tools have more practical uses for which they are designed for rather than to kill someone.

Guns, on the other hand...

Myself and others that I personally know who own firearms have never killed nor attempted to kill anyone. Do you think that maybe we've been doing something wrong???

[fuelair]

Originally Posted by Bikewer

I imagine my 8" Henckles carving knife would be a pretty efficient weapon... It's straight, so it'd be a dagger rather than a slasher, but still...
A surprising number of criminals use kitchen knives because they are readily accessible or can be picked up for next to nothing at any thrift store. Also stolen steak-house knives and ratty old "hunting" knives...
In fact, in my 40+ years as a police officer, I've never seen anything like a quality "tactical" knife in the hands of a bad guy.
Why would they pop 150 or 200 bucks for a top-grade knife only to toss it down a storm drain if that pesky squad car stops?
The weapons of homicide include a very wide variety of tools and implements....Lug wrenches are popular, as are hatchets, hammers, pieces of pipe, screwdrivers... You name it, it's probably been used to kill somebody.

Because it won't break on them in the middle of use for some emergency (up to and including trying to induce a naughty person to leave you alone). I occasionally sell knives at SF conventions - but I carry nothing that is poorly made but looks nasty.

[Mudcat]

Originally Posted by Autolite

Myself and others that I personally know who own firearms have never killed nor attempted to kill anyone. Do you think that maybe we've been doing something wrong???

Oh? And what are their practical purposes outside inflicting harm? Shooting clay pigeons?

My, what a useful device it is.

[Myriad]

Originally Posted by Bikewer

You name it, it's probably been used to kill somebody.

That's it! We have to ban naming things.

I'll send a thingamajig to you-know-who in that place where they pass those things that say what you're not allowed to do.

If even one whatchamacallit is saved, it'll be worth it.

[P.J. Denyer]

Originally Posted by W.D.Clinger

Carrying long kitchen knives (without good reason) is already forbidden by the UK government. Absent special circumstances, the UK forbids the carrying of knives with a cutting edge longer than three inches.

Strictly speaking carrying any knife of any length without a valid and immediate reason is illegal, the only exceptions are folding knives with a blade of less than three inches which cannot be locked in position and knives carried for reasons of religion or national dress. Anyone the Police catch walking down the street with a kitchen knife easily to hand (of any length) is going to have to give a pretty good excuse to not find themselves in trouble.

[DrDave]

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer

Strictly speaking carrying any knife of any length without a valid and immediate reason is illegal, the only exceptions are folding knives with a blade of less than three inches which cannot be locked in position and knives carried for reasons of religion or national dress. Anyone the Police catch walking down the street with a kitchen knife easily to hand (of any length) is going to have to give a pretty good excuse to not find themselves in trouble.

That's why I always carry a watermelon with me as well as my stabbing knife

[Tolls]

Originally Posted by Nessie

The law already exists in Scotland, so wee pen knives are OK

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1995/39/section/49

"Subject to subsection (3) below, this section applies to any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed.
(3)This section does not apply to a folding pocket knife if the cutting edge of its blade does not exceed three inches (7.62 centimetres)."

"Offence of having in public place article with blade or point."

The article in the OP is talking about banning long pointy knives from sale.

[P.J. Denyer]

Originally Posted by DrDave

That's why I always carry a watermelon with me as well as my stabbing knife

And spitting out the pips gives you an effective projectile weapon!

[P.J. Denyer]

Originally Posted by Tolls

"Offence of having in public place article with blade or point."

The article in the OP is talking about banning long pointy knives from sale.

Yeah, but the article has been shown to be old and based on nothing more than a single opinion piece not an actual ban or attempt to introduce one.

[DC]

lucky nobody brought up the laws in my country. some knives are banned because they have a symetric blade while the same knive with asymetric blades are not banned.
butterfly knifes are banned and count as a weappon. But a samurai sword is not a weappon according to our laws.

http://www.ejpd.admin.ch/content/dam...oschuere-d.pdf

[P.J. Denyer]

Originally Posted by DC

lucky nobody brought up the laws in my country. some knives are banned because they have a symetric blade while the same knive with asymetric blades are not banned.
butterfly knifes are banned and count as a weappon. But a samurai sword is not a weappon according to our laws.

http://www.ejpd.admin.ch/content/dam...oschuere-d.pdf

But on the other hand your most famous military knife is even legal here in the UK. I bought one recently since my nice Gerber Multitool is illegal to carry (locking blade). My swiss army knife is on my belt right now and used for all sorts of legal, non-stabby bits and pieces every day. Indeed not an hour ago a college came over to borrow it to screw a new HDD into a caddy.

[Bikewer]

I imagine that millions of sportsmen, Olympic athletes, target shooters, and others would not agree with Mudcat's view that firearms have no purpose other than killing. A rather quaint attitude.
Sometimes, regrettably, killing is practical.

But further, regarding knives..... If I were a civilian, and took my 8" Henckels butcher knife and made a sheath for it (often cardboard and tape suffices for the criminal element) and stuck it in my belt and went to Walmart... I would be guilty of "carrying a concealed weapon" under Missouri (and most other states) statutes.
If I were to employ this knife against another human being, I would be guilty of whatever went down; homicide, aggravated assault, felonious wounding... Whatever.

This would pretty much seem to cover what legal steps need be taken; make the criminal use of the weapon punishable appropriately rather than try to eliminate useful kitchen tools.

However, there has historically been a problem with added-on charges for the use of a weapon in a crime.
We have such laws here in Missouri. What tends to happen is that the charge tends to be a bargaining chip by prosecutors. "OK, plea to the robbery, and we'll drop the weapons charge."
Everybody happy...A conviction for the prosecution, no expensive trial, and a lighter sentence for the bad guy.
The victim is only rarely consulted.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by Autolite

Murder with knives, swords, machetes and the like are not at all uncommon here in Canada. Perhaps a ban is long overdue.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/video/man-k...192100904.html

We could use President Obama's rationale that "if it just saves one life" then it is worth a try.

Which is why I keep saying that we should ban cars, planes and civilization in general. Stairs, particularily.

[Tolls]

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer

Yeah, but the article has been shown to be old and based on nothing more than a single opinion piece not an actual ban or attempt to introduce one.

Had I misread?
I thought Nessie was saying Scotland already had laws banning long, pointy knives?
That's why I pointed out that law linked to was for carrying in public.

The stuff in the OP link is, of course, ancient and was barely news at the time.

[Rat]

Originally Posted by Tolls

Had I misread?
I thought Nessie was saying Scotland already had laws banning long, pointy knives?
That's why I pointed out that law linked to was for carrying in public.

The stuff in the OP link is, of course, ancient and was barely news at the time.

Banning you from carrying them in the street, not from owning or buying them.

[Horatius]

Originally Posted by DC

butterfly knifes are banned and count as a weappon. But a samurai sword is not a weappon according to our laws.

http://www.ejpd.admin.ch/content/dam...oschuere-d.pdf

Banning knives while not banning swords is fairly common from what I understand. The issue is one of concealability. You can stick a folding knife in your pocket and no one will know it's there until you pull it out and use it. That makes them easier to use for surprise attacks. Unless you're the Highlander, concealing a katana is a wee bit more difficult.

[Kid Eager]

I've had more trouble with the edge of the knife than the point. In the past 3 months I've sliced the tip off my thumb, cut open the side of my thumb, and stabbed myself in the thumb.

I have never incurred an injury from the point of a kitchen knife.

Of course, if they were serious about those knives being on the street, we all know that the only thing that's going to stop a bad guy with a kitchen knife is a good guy with a kitchen knife.

I don't care though. Next time I'm on the street, there'll be a pair of scissors in each hand.

AND THEN I START RUNNING WITH THEM.

[Delvo]

It'll happen only after the news media start reporting stories about people being "knifed down" and referring to the culprits as "knifemen".

[W.D.Clinger]

Originally Posted by Kid Eager

I don't care though. Next time I'm on the street, there'll be a pair of scissors in each hand.

AND THEN I START RUNNING WITH THEM.

Badass.

Originally Posted by Delvo

It'll happen only after the news media start reporting stories about people being "knifed down" and referring to the culprits as "knifemen".

People are being scissored down by scissorwomen, too.

If banning scissors saves only one life, it will be worth it.

[P.J. Denyer]

Kid Eager-LOL, but the surest defence against a bad guy running with scissors is a good guy running with pinking shears!

[DC]

Originally Posted by Horatius

Banning knives while not banning swords is fairly common from what I understand. The issue is one of concealability. You can stick a folding knife in your pocket and no one will know it's there until you pull it out and use it. That makes them easier to use for surprise attacks. Unless you're the Highlander, concealing a katana is a wee bit more difficult.

ah ok, that makes sense.

[Eddie Dane]

Originally Posted by DC

lucky nobody brought up the laws in my country. some knives are banned because they have a symetric blade while the same knive with asymetric blades are not banned.
butterfly knifes are banned and count as a weappon. But a samurai sword is not a weappon according to our laws.

http://www.ejpd.admin.ch/content/dam...oschuere-d.pdf

Switchblades and butterfly knives are the "assault rifles" of the knife world.

No more or less deadly than other knives, but they look cool in Kung Fu movies.
On that perception, they got banned.

I've often heard that kitchen knives are the most used murder weapon in the world.
Doesn't surprise me at all.
Next time you have a chef's knife in your hand, think about what it would do as a weapon.
Pretty scary.

I imagine they get used in drunken arguments where people totally underestimate how deadly these things can be.

As a knife nut, I'm a bit saddened by all the knife bans.
I was thinking about getting one of the over-sized Cold Steel folders mentioned above.
It would make an excellent portable kitchen knife.

But it was pointed out to me a in a previous knife thread that the UK ban on locking folding knives has actually reduced knife crime.
If that's true, the bans may be worth it.

[richardm]

It's not clear to me that it really is the case, or if it's just one of those cyclical things:

[~kaRN]

..

[dudalb]

Wow, I hope these people never see my closet,since as Society For Creative Anrachronism members my wife and I have quite a collection of sharp implements, rangings from a replica of a renassiance dagger to a Hand and A Half Sword, aka a Bastard Sword.

[Autolite]

Originally Posted by Mudcat

Oh? And what are their practical purposes outside inflicting harm? Shooting clay pigeons?

My, what a useful device it is.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/white-house...173057681.html


President Obama doesn't seem to have a problem with recreational shooting sports and Joe Biden says that a double barreled shotgun is just the thing to keep the nasty criminal types out of one's face.

Do you think perhaps the NRA has been putting something in the White House water coolers???

2013-02-02T184536Z_2_CBRE9111FUH00_RTROPTP_2_OBAMA-GUNS.jpg

[Soapy Sam]

Originally Posted by Nikewer

The weapons of homicide include a very wide variety of tools and implements....Lug wrenches are popular, as are hatchets, hammers, pieces of pipe, screwdrivers... You name it, it's probably been used to kill somebody.

A banana.



Monty Python reference in 3...2...