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Old 3rd February 2013, 12:20 PM   #201
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some greeks support fascists, so Euope is fascist
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Old 3rd February 2013, 12:37 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
If they never come close to power how do you explain Holocaust denial laws, the UK thought crime laws, and Belarus?
For UK thought crime laws, you mean the prosecutions that happened as people went over the top with offensive abuse on social network sites? The same kind of abuse it is illegal to use over the telephone in the UK and the USA?

What about the censorship of nudity? Europe is far more accepting of nudity than the USA, indeed one of the UK daily papers has a topless female model on its page 3 and in at least one of the major Sunday papers it is rare not to have some nudity in it. UK forums seem to fine with nude photos, US run ones are not IME. I got a warning for posting an album cover with naked women on it on a hifi forum run from the USA. It was Electric Ladyland by Jimi Hendrix. I later learned that in the oppressive, highly censored USA the album had a different cover .
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Old 3rd February 2013, 01:19 PM   #203
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In time Europe will become a single polity, more than likely as a response to stategic pressures such as economic stresses mostly and then miltary.

Its clinging to comfort blankets to imagine otherwise.
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Old 3rd February 2013, 01:47 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by Dcdrac View Post
In time Europe will become a single polity, more than likely as a response to stategic pressures such as economic stresses mostly and then miltary.

Its clinging to comfort blankets to imagine otherwise.
In time America will become a single polity, more than likely as a response to stategic pressures such as economic stresses mostly and then miltary.

Its clinging to comfort blankets to imagine otherwise.
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Old 3rd February 2013, 02:52 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Would that they were the only ones to support fascists....
Golden Dawn got around (iirc) 6% of the vote in the last Greek general election.

If you want to characterise this as "Greeks support fascists" then you're right, but on a pretty meaningless technical level.

But by the same token Brits also support the Official Monster Raving Loony PartyWP
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Old 3rd February 2013, 03:19 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Golden Dawn got around (iirc) 6% of the vote in the last Greek general election.

If you want to characterise this as "Greeks support fascists" then you're right, but on a pretty meaningless technical level.

But by the same token Brits also support the Official Monster Raving Loony PartyWP
It was his characterization, not mine. I didn't object to it because I thought the distinction was obvious to everyone here and didn't need to be made explicit. Perhaps you're right that it should be made explicit, but your complaint isn't really with me, it's with him.
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Old 3rd February 2013, 03:23 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by Dcdrac View Post
In time Europe will become a single polity, more than likely as a response to stategic pressures such as economic stresses mostly and then miltary.
Why do you believe that pressures will necessarily lead to unification rather than fractures? I don't see unification as inevitable at all.
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Old 3rd February 2013, 03:24 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I wasn't aware that the fascists had a majority position in Greek politics.
I never said that. So don't pretend that I did.
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Old 3rd February 2013, 04:16 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I never said that. So don't pretend that I did.
No, you heavily implied it, and don't pretend you didn't.

Perhaps you meant to post something different, but you didn't.
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Old 3rd February 2013, 08:21 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
No, you heavily implied it, and don't pretend you didn't.

Perhaps you meant to post something different, but you didn't.
Maybe if you just read one post and ignore it's context you could think that, but a more rational reading doesn't support that at all.
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Old 3rd February 2013, 08:41 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
No, you heavily implied it, and don't pretend you didn't.

Perhaps you meant to post something different, but you didn't.
Let's review. I said, "The outrage is that this [fascism] is what so many Greeks want." The phrase "so many" is admittedly somewhat ambiguous, but though the simplest logical interpretation is that it refers to whatever number actually voted for Golden Dawn, which is not a majority. But in any case, there's no reason to think that I must have meant a majority. In fact, you responded to that post immediately after I made it, and in that response, you did not appear to interpret my statement as meaning a majority of Greeks. In fact, your response did not appear to disagree with anything that I said at all. It seems only now, after other exchanges between us, that you want to go back and find something objectionable in a post that you found perfectly acceptable at the time. That seems to rather undercut your newly expressed objections to my original post. Whatever changed between then and now, it cannot be found in that post.
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Old 3rd February 2013, 11:53 PM   #212
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Never mind.

Last edited by H'ethetheth; 3rd February 2013 at 11:55 PM.
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Old 4th February 2013, 01:35 AM   #213
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I cannot get enough of threads where it degrades to:
- you said
- no, I said
- no, you said that I said
- well, not really but I did say
- no, you really said
- you're biased
- you're blind
- ad hom
- report me
- not worth it
- etc., etc., etc.
- ..................................................
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Old 4th February 2013, 06:36 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
What about the censorship of nudity? Europe is far more accepting of nudity than the USA, indeed one of the UK daily papers has a topless female model on its page 3 and in at least one of the major Sunday papers it is rare not to have some nudity in it. UK forums seem to fine with nude photos, US run ones are not IME. I got a warning for posting an album cover with naked women on it on a hifi forum run from the USA. It was Electric Ladyland by Jimi Hendrix. I later learned that in the oppressive, highly censored USA the album had a different cover .
Case in point: Frontpage news in Portugal [NSFW for some because bare breasts with nipples appear].

It's a newsphoto in a newspiece. That demonstration happened, was documented by a photographer, written by a journalist and published by a newspaper. And as a newsphoto it's amazingly thoughtprovoking being both documentaristic and having multiple layers of symbolic discourse in it (e.g. the classic La liberté [also NSFW because bare breasts]). If one censored the bare breasts the picture would turn into something completely else and loose some of it's power. Do try it mentally and you may see what I mean.

This is a bit of bad taste to me: Model flashes genitals to Serbia's prime minister in reality show prank
A model without underpants interwievs PM and while at it "accidentally" uncrosses her legs revealing her genitals to PM's surprise. I've heard that it caused a tiny scandal in Serbia, and the government has vowed to do a full investigation into it...

...for science of course.


In Vienna you can go and see nudes in nude: Vienna museum to welcome art buffs in the buff
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Old 4th February 2013, 06:40 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Wasn't Berlusconi making noises about running for PM again? If so, he can kiss that idea goodbye.
Not so fast, he just promised a €4bn tax refund:
Silvio Berlusconi accused of 'dangerous propaganda' over Italy tax cut vow
"Threetime PM promises to refund €4bn proceeds from loathed property tax if his rightwing coalition wins wide-open elections"

Why would anyone in their right mind vote him is beyond me, but possible it is.

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Old 4th February 2013, 07:14 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
What about the censorship of nudity?
What about it? With the exception of over-the-air TV (which carries restrictions other avenues of speech don't for reasons already discussed), that is almost entirely an issue of social mores, not government censorship. I don't think there is any law which prohibits nudity in newspapers, but most papers would probably lose readership if they did that.
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Old 4th February 2013, 08:03 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Let's review. I said, "The outrage is that this [fascism] is what so many Greeks want." The phrase "so many" is admittedly somewhat ambiguous, but though the simplest logical interpretation is that it refers to whatever number actually voted for Golden Dawn, which is not a majority. But in any case, there's no reason to think that I must have meant a majority. In fact, you responded to that post immediately after I made it, and in that response, you did not appear to interpret my statement as meaning a majority of Greeks. In fact, your response did not appear to disagree with anything that I said at all. It seems only now, after other exchanges between us, that you want to go back and find something objectionable in a post that you found perfectly acceptable at the time. That seems to rather undercut your newly expressed objections to my original post. Whatever changed between then and now, it cannot be found in that post.
So when you said "Would that they were the only ones to support fascists...." , you didn't actually mean that the Greek people supported fascists, despite saying so?
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Old 4th February 2013, 08:04 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What about it? With the exception of over-the-air TV (which carries restrictions other avenues of speech don't for reasons already discussed), that is almost entirely an issue of social mores, not government censorship. I don't think there is any law which prohibits nudity in newspapers, but most papers would probably lose readership if they did that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Decency_Act

That's not censorship to you?
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Old 4th February 2013, 09:27 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
From your source:
"In 1997, in the landmark cyberlaw case of Reno v. ACLU, the United States Supreme Court struck the anti-indecency provisions of the Act."

If your point is that Congress has tried to overstep its bounds on censorship, you would be right. If your point is that censorship is currently in effect, or that the first amendment doesn't protect us from it, I think you need to find another example.
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Old 4th February 2013, 09:30 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
So when you said "Would that they were the only ones to support fascists...." , you didn't actually mean that the Greek people supported fascists, despite saying so?
Some Greeks do support fascists. I never made any claim that it was a majority. That's entirely your own invention.

Something got under your skin between page 1 and now, and it's made you lose the ability to read in context. That's disappointing, because instead of trying to advance the conversation, you're now just trying to play "gotcha".
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Old 4th February 2013, 10:02 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
From your source:
"In 1997, in the landmark cyberlaw case of Reno v. ACLU, the United States Supreme Court struck the anti-indecency provisions of the Act."

If your point is that Congress has tried to overstep its bounds on censorship, you would be right. If your point is that censorship is currently in effect, or that the first amendment doesn't protect us from it, I think you need to find another example.
Nice quote-mine.

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Old 4th February 2013, 10:04 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Some Greeks do support fascists. I never made any claim that it was a majority. That's entirely your own invention.
Dishonest as always, I see. I asked you if your beef was with the Greek people. You replied that they weren't the only ones supporting fascism. In the English language, this means that you think the Greek people support fascism. It's quite plain and simple, really.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Something got under your skin between page 1 and now, and it's made you lose the ability to read in context. That's disappointing, because instead of trying to advance the conversation, you're now just trying to play "gotcha".
I'm just holding you to what you wrote. You might not have meant what you wrote, but you did write it, and it was stupid. This kind of stupid remarks are quite common from you, and I find it satisfying to rub them in your face.
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Old 4th February 2013, 10:06 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Nice quote-mine.

Do you have nothing left to offer but disdain? Because if all you want to do is attack me, well, I don't think too many people here are going to be interested in sticking around. It's certainly getting less and less interesting for me.

Or was that the goal?
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Old 4th February 2013, 10:13 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Dishonest as always, I see. I asked you if your beef was with the Greek people. You replied that they weren't the only ones supporting fascism. In the English language, this means that you think the Greek people support fascism. It's quite plain and simple, really.
Since you seem to be intent on a semantic argument, I'll oblige. You didn't ask anything. You made a declarative statement.
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
So your beef is with the Greek people. Got it.
Beyond that, well, you seem to be the only one who couldn't figure out that I didn't mean a majority. And if all you actually wanted was that point clarified, well, we've been past that point for quite some time now.

Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I'm just holding you to what you wrote. You might not have meant what you wrote, but you did write it, and it was stupid. This kind of stupid remarks are quite common from you, and I find it satisfying to rub them in your face.
Thanks for confirming that this has indeed become personal for you, and that it really has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. I can't say I understand why you have this personal animosity towards me, but I don't actually care either.
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Old 4th February 2013, 10:14 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Do you have nothing left to offer but disdain? Because if all you want to do is attack me, well, I don't think too many people here are going to be interested in sticking around. It's certainly getting less and less interesting for me.

Or was that the goal?
No. The goal was to point out your dishonesty. Mission accomplished.
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Old 4th February 2013, 10:15 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
For UK thought crime laws, you mean the prosecutions that happened as people went over the top with offensive abuse on social network sites? The same kind of abuse it is illegal to use over the telephone in the UK and the USA?
You really don't see the difference between calling someone's phone and abusing them verbally and someone who has to seek out a web site in order to be "abused"?

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
What about the censorship of nudity
What censorship of nudity?
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Old 4th February 2013, 10:17 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Since you seem to be intent on a semantic argument, I'll oblige. You didn't ask anything. You made a declarative statement.
Sure. To which you replied

Originally Posted by Ziggurat
Would that they were the only ones to support fascists....
As I said, in English, this means you think the Greek people support fascists.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Beyond that, well, you seem to be the only one who couldn't figure out that I didn't mean a majority. And if all you actually wanted was that point clarified, well, we've been past that point for quite some time now.
I'd say I'm not the only one who noticed what you said.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Thanks for confirming that this has indeed become personal for you, and that it really has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. I can't say I understand why you have this personal animosity towards me, but I don't actually care either.
I'm sorry if you feel persecuted. Perhaps you shouldn't post stupid things in the future, and people will stop persecuting you.
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Old 4th February 2013, 10:21 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I'm sorry if you feel persecuted.
You have an inflated sense of the effect your posts have on me.
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Old 4th February 2013, 10:22 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You have an inflated sense of the effect your posts have on me.
It gets further inflated for every post you make whining about my pointing out your stupid remarks.
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Old 4th February 2013, 10:22 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
As I said, in English, this means you think the Greek people support fascists.
Enough Greek people support fascists to send 18 of them to Parliament.

Certainly it wasn't foreigners electing them, was it?
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Old 4th February 2013, 10:24 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
No. The goal was to point out your dishonesty. Mission accomplished.
And yet, you took exception to my page 1 post on page 5 of this thread, even though on page 1 you found nothing objectionable about it at all. Somehow my "dishonesty" escaped your notice at the time, but now it's all you can talk about. What got your panties in a bunch?
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Old 4th February 2013, 10:25 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Enough Greek people support fascists to send 18 of them to Parliament.

Certainly it wasn't foreigners electing them, was it?
18 that sounds like very much. 18/300 not so much anymore
what a huge percentage of greek people voted for them?
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Old 4th February 2013, 10:27 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And yet, you took exception to my page 1 post on page 5 of this thread, even though on page 1 you found nothing objectionable about it at all. Somehow my "dishonesty" escaped your notice at the time, but now it's all you can talk about. What got your panties in a bunch?
What can I say, you aren't dishonest 100% of the time. You're just dishonest enough to "get my panties in a bunch".
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Old 4th February 2013, 10:29 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by DC View Post
18 that sounds like very much. 18/300 not so much anymore
what a huge percentage of greek people voted for them?
6.9% voted for them in the last election. That's up from 0.3% before the Greek economic crisis. It's just a common outcry of public distrust and disgust for the established political parties, and it's being used by dishonest Euro-bashers as some sort of sign that Europe (note: not just Greece) is becoming fascist.
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Old 4th February 2013, 10:35 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
6.9% voted for them in the last election. That's up from 0.3% before the Greek economic crisis. It's just a common outcry of public distrust and disgust for the established political parties, and it's being used by dishonest Euro-bashers as some sort of sign that Europe (note: not just Greece) is becoming fascist.
There's certainly far more fascism in Europe than there is in the USA.

You can stamp your little feet and cry all you want, but facts are facts.
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Old 4th February 2013, 10:47 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
There's certainly far more fascism in Europe than there is in the USA.

You can stamp your little feet and cry all you want, but facts are facts.
what percentage of US citizens support fascism?
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Old 4th February 2013, 10:49 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Beyond that, well, you seem to be the only one who couldn't figure out that I didn't mean a majority.
I figured out in a nanosecond that you didn't mean a majority.

However, your "so many" comment can only indicate that you believed it was a substantial percentage, despite your subsequent semantic wriggling.

It's ~6%, which earns some places in parliaments and councils based on a PR electoral system.

Look at it the other way - had you said: "The outrage is that this is what 6% of Greeks want" I'd be pointing you to obscure and hopeless "ultra-whatever" parties throughout the world who poll figures of that order under similar systems.

Meanwhile the British National PartyWP earns places on local councils and has earned 2 seats in the European Parliament. It has a very similar agenda to Golden Dawn, but I really don't see its existence and activity as a reasonable way to demonise either the UK or Europe.

Last edited by GlennB; 4th February 2013 at 10:52 AM. Reason: fixed factual error
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Old 4th February 2013, 11:07 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Was Bush a Nazi?

And do you really want to bring Australia into this, where the native inhabitants were counted as animals in the census as recently as the 1960s? Even slaves counted as 2/3 of a person when the US had slavery 150 years ago.
This is not a direct comparison.

If you want to compare how Indigenous people fared during European Colonisation, then compare Native North Americans to Aborigines.

They were both quite rubbish, but I suppose if you want to play the game 'who was/is worse' which seems to be the intention of a lot of the posting in this thread, then please continue.

This thread is a bit bonkers, but I think Americans need to realise that as long as they put themselves forth as the police force for the world, they are going to be judged and judged unfairly at times.

I can see why some Americans become defensive and even go on the attack pointing out how bad and wrong other countries are, but it just seems rather silly to me.
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Old 4th February 2013, 12:03 PM   #239
WildCat
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Originally Posted by DC View Post
what percentage of US citizens support fascism?
Not enough to send a single fascist to Congress.
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Old 4th February 2013, 12:08 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
There's certainly far more fascism in Europe than there is in the USA.

You can stamp your little feet and cry all you want, but facts are facts.
If there's facts, provide us with the numbers and tell us how you figured them out.

Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Not enough to send a single fascist to Congress.
Hard to do in a de facto two party state.
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