"American Sniper" Chris Kyle murdered - Page 2

NoahFence · 3rd February 2013, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by triforcharity

{citation needed}

seycyrus' body of work should do.

Unabogie · 3rd February 2013, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by triforcharity

Strawman, since nobody claims the hilited.

The element of surprise was on the bad guys side. The EOS is always on the attacker's side.

Sad that the death of an American serviceman, highly decorated, and highly respected, is almost celebrated by people. Very sad.

No one is celebrating, but your response is the classic No True Gun Pro excuse. Name a scenario more in favor of the good guys than one in which their guns are already in their hands and loaded?

Checkmite · 3rd February 2013, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Unabogie

No one is celebrating

Pointing out how a particular shooting makes a case against the efficacy of the NRA's goodguy/badguy solution on gun violence, is tantamount to cruelly and heartlessly celebrating the death of the victim. You obviously weren't at The Meeting or you would know this.

Checkmite · 3rd February 2013, 12:16 PM

To be fair though, it's certain that the fact there were many carrying gun owners at the gun range probably kept the shooter from claiming even more victims.

Either that, or the shooter leaving the gun range. One of these two definitely helped prevent more deaths there.

joesixpack · 3rd February 2013, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by triforcharity

Sad that the death of an American serviceman, highly decorated, and highly respected, is almost celebrated by people. Very sad.

Funny. I'm not "almost" celebrating his death either. His death is an absolute tragedy. There is absolutely NOTHING good about this story, on any level.

But I'll take issue with your "highly respected" characterization. He was a good shot and operated well in a morally ambiguous milieu. The accident of his birth put him on the same side to which you hold allegiance. But nothing about his actions make him stand out as a beacon of humanity.

thaiboxerken · 3rd February 2013, 12:43 PM

I don't understand. How does a guy with a gun get shot? I thought guns protected people from other guns.

NoahFence · 3rd February 2013, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

I don't understand. How does a guy with a gun get shot? I thought guns protected people from other guns.

MORE guns! Clearly there weren't enough guns there.

BStrong · 3rd February 2013, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

It seems like a very bad idea to me to take someone suffering from mental illness to a gun range to rehab them... seriously wtf?

One of the new treatment methods for PTSD is to use video footage recreation of specific incidents involving the patient, allowing them to experience the same feelings in a safe environment with a professional there for support.

I've been told it works by guys I know through Swords to Plowshares that have gone through the treatment.

I often ride my motorcycle when I'm in anxiety, going into a focused mindset like that of combat without risk to anyone but myself allows me to burn it out of my mind.

Professional level shooting like what Kyle would be involved with takes the same level of focus, and I understand why someone at his skill level could find relief in focusing solely on the mechanics of shooting.

If the reports are to be believed, Kyle made a lapse in judgement invovling the shooter in the range day program.

BStrong · 3rd February 2013, 01:24 PM

I read through all the responses here now.

I *********** wish I hadn't.

BenBurch · 3rd February 2013, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

I thought stuff like this was never supposed to happen to you if you were armed.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

NWO Sentryman · 3rd February 2013, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by BStrong

I read through all the responses here now.

I *********** wish I hadn't.

Welcome to politics, leave your critical thinking at the door.

Giz · 3rd February 2013, 02:15 PM

a lot of dancing on graves going on

R.Mackey · 3rd February 2013, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by BStrong

I read through all the responses here now.

I *********** wish I hadn't.

You and me both.

Respect for the fallen, please. He did a heck of a dirty job for the people of the USA, and whether we believe in or support the politics that led to it doesn't make a difference. He was engaged with trying to help other veterans when he was murdered. If you can't recognize the greatness of his sacrifice and the sadness of this loss, then kindly take a break.

Not going to single anybody out. Not worth it.

joesixpack · 3rd February 2013, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by Giz

a lot of dancing on graves going on

You should have no trouble quoting those. I frankly haven't seen anyone cheering his murder.

joesixpack · 3rd February 2013, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by R.Mackey

Respect for the fallen, please.

I'm on board with that

Quote:

He did a heck of a dirty job

Yes, quite dirty

Quote:

for the people of the USA,

I'll call BS on that. I'll thank him for the fact that a few more servicemen made it back alive because of his effectiveness as a sniper, but that's about where it ends.

Quote:

and whether we believe in or support the politics that led to it doesn't make a difference.

It makes ALL the difference if you're going to equate opposition to the war in Iraq with dancing on the grave of servicemen.

Quote:

He was engaged with trying to help other veterans when he was murdered. If you can't recognize the greatness of his sacrifice

You're confusing sacrifice with victimization. It's not any different than if he'd been killed in the course of a convenience store hold-up. Don't try to portray his death as something it wasn't. It was a senseless murder plain and simple.

Quote:

and the sadness of this loss

Yes, it's very sad for his family and friends.

Quote:

, then kindly take a break.

Not going to single anybody out. Not worth it.

It would be worth it if you could clear up the confusion I have. Who has been disrespectful?

Ranb · 3rd February 2013, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by Unabogie

No one is celebrating, but your response is the classic No True Gun Pro excuse. Name a scenario more in favor of the good guys than one in which their guns are already in their hands and loaded?

What evidence do you have to support that claim? I didn't see it in the link you posted. What makes you think that the two murder victims were actually armed at the time they were shot?

Ranb

Unabogie · 3rd February 2013, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by Ranb

What evidence do you have to support that claim? I didn't see it in the link you posted. What makes you think that the two murder victims were actually armed at the time they were shot?

Ranb

They were at the gun range shooting? You're right, I made an assumption here, but my question still stands. Name a scenario in which you have more advantage than when you've got your gun in hand, or just nearby and loaded?

Would guns have been more out of reach than at home or at the movies?

Monketey Ghost · 3rd February 2013, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by BStrong

What a loss.

My heart goes out to his family.

I can't believe this hasn't been echoed more. A lot of you make me sick with the issue-flogging-at-any-opportunity.

This man served his country.

LTC8K6 · 3rd February 2013, 05:44 PM

It's normal to hear gunfire at the range, so unless you were in a position to see what was happening, you'd have no idea anyone was being killed. The gunshots wouldn't sound any different, especially with hearing protection being worn.

The way many ranges are set up, it's very possible that the other people wouldn't see the incident, and would have no idea anything was wrong until the killer was gone.

LashL · 3rd February 2013, 06:01 PM

I split a bunch of off-topic posts about the war in Iraq and/or Afghanistan and such to AAH. Most of them would probably be perfectly fine in another thread where the subject matter is U.S. military in Iraq and/or Afghanistan, so if members wish to start such a thread and reproduce the posts there, please feel free. But for this thread, please stick to the subject matter of this thread. Thank you in advance for your anticipated cooperation.

Posted By:LashL

ponderingturtle · 3rd February 2013, 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by R.Mackey

You and me both.

Respect for the fallen, please. He did a heck of a dirty job for the people of the USA, and whether we believe in or support the politics that led to it doesn't make a difference. He was engaged with trying to help other veterans when he was murdered. If you can't recognize the greatness of his sacrifice and the sadness of this loss, then kindly take a break.

Not going to single anybody out. Not worth it.

What is the big deal?

Why is this so different from any other shooting?

I don't see why a veteran is worth so much more than anyone else?

Monketey Ghost · 3rd February 2013, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

What is the big deal?

Why is this so different from any other shooting?

I don't see why a veteran is worth so much more than anyone else?

Who said he was worth more than anyone else?

ponderingturtle · 3rd February 2013, 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost

Who said he was worth more than anyone else?

I don't see how this thread is different from any other thread on shootings, but it disgusts him more than them, so clearly as a veteran his murder bothers many here than other murders of innocent people.

Monketey Ghost · 3rd February 2013, 06:20 PM

I don't know about him, but it bothers me that there were so few expressions of condolence or respect.

BStrong · 3rd February 2013, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

What is the big deal?

Why is this so different from any other shooting?

I don't see why a veteran is worth so much more than anyone else?

I don't think anyone asserted that, but a few posters here wanted to grind their personal axe rather than mourn a loss.

Bad taste at the least, ironic callousness by individuals claiming to be concerned about violence, definitely.

Ranb · 3rd February 2013, 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by Unabogie

They were at the gun range shooting? You're right, I made an assumption here, but my question still stands. Name a scenario in which you have more advantage than when you've got your gun in hand, or just nearby and loaded?

Would guns have been more out of reach than at home or at the movies?

You should quit while you are behind. While I can't think of any such scenario at the moment where I have a greater advantage, this is not what I experience at the local range I shoot at.

The article said they were at a shooting area and were killed, not much more than that at all. I didn't see anything that said they were actually shooting there. How do you know that the two murder victims were armed or even brought guns with them Probably they did, doesn't mean those guns were loaded or within easy reach.

This thread is about a couple of guys that were murdered at a shooting area presumably by some guy they were trying to help in some way. You are trying to make some sort of political statement and inventing facts to support it. Why can't you go to any of the other threads you are so damn sorry to have started and trash these people there?

Shooting areas vary a lot in the USA. Some are just remote areas where people shoot at targets. Other are facilities that cater to people who want more than just pulling the trigger. There are more than a few unarmed people at many shooting areas. I work at the KRRC each weekend. Unless I am actually at a bench and shooting, I am not armed nor do I have a firearm in easy reach. If someone wanted to go nuts and start blowing people away, I would be a sitting duck. But the roads between my house and the range are far more dangerous than the range itself.

Ranb

Ranb · 3rd February 2013, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

What is the big deal?

Why is this so different from any other shooting?

His death is a bit different from most other people for me. He is someone I actually knew of or and read about before he was killed; kind of like John Lennon.

Ranb

R.Mackey · 3rd February 2013, 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

What is the big deal?

Why is this so different from any other shooting?

I don't see why a veteran is worth so much more than anyone else?

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

I don't see how this thread is different from any other thread on shootings, but it disgusts him more than them, so clearly as a veteran his murder bothers many here than other murders of innocent people.

Now you just stop. Right there.

I didn't say he was worth more than anyone else. It doesn't disgust me more than other shootings. Your suggestion that it does is repellent. For instance, I made a similar appeal for candor in the early hours of the Newtown calamity. Your inference is based on nothing other than your own preconceptions. You can keep those.

Unlike the Newtown shooting, however, Kyle did happen to be a veteran. Obviously none of the schoolchildren were veterans. So it happens that the off-color remarks and rhetorical sniping in this thread are of a somewhat different complexion. But the sentiment is similar.

However, I'm not sure what bothers me more -- that so many people are so blinkered as to filter another man's death (any man) solely through their own politics, or that they'll go one step further, and attempt to cast aspersions at other posters based on the most idiotic logic, in this case based on a perception of omission that isn't even true.

Thanks to such ridiculous character attacks as the above, I'm beginning to reevaluate the utility of this Forum.

thaiboxerken · 3rd February 2013, 07:46 PM

Yes, we shouldn't talk about gun control until there is, at least, a week where no one is shot in the USA.

UnrepentantSinner · 3rd February 2013, 08:58 PM

Originally Posted by triforcharity

Sad that the death of an American serviceman, highly decorated, and highly respected, is almost celebrated by people. Very sad.

You might want to check out the comments on Free Republic, The Blaze, etc. before you engage in this sort of disdain. Many of them think this was a hit on a "Constitutional Conservative" by the Musllm/Communist/Gun Grabber government to send a message to patriots and/or to eliminate SEALs who might have inside information on the bogus bin Laden operation.

UnrepentantSinner · 3rd February 2013, 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by NoahFence

And isn't that always the death knell for the "cold, dead fingers" crowd? This is rock-solid proof that no, a good guy with a gun can't stop a bad guy with a gun. (IN GENERAL!!!) Because the bad guy knows what he's doing and the good guy can't see it coming.

I have a gun nut coworker who is big on CHL. So was his former girlfriend. He told me some time back about how she'd hand both her DL and CHL to any law enforcement that pulled her over. Of course, to this day, I wonder why a "law abiding armed and responsible citizen" would get pulled over by the cops, but I don't mention that.

About a year ago her drug addicted brother bludgeoned her to death.

The schadenfreude makes me sick to this day, but I nearly bite my tongue in half when he get's all gun nutty at work and I want to simply say that having her CHL and gun didn't help her on that tragic afternoon.

Checkmite · 3rd February 2013, 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost

This man served his country.

Are you referring to Kyle or his killer? The same is true of both, and I haven't seen anyone bad-mouthing the victims.

UnrepentantSinner · 3rd February 2013, 09:16 PM

Originally Posted by R.Mackey

You and me both.

Respect for the fallen, please. He did a heck of a dirty job for the people of the USA, and whether we believe in or support the politics that led to it doesn't make a difference. He was engaged with trying to help other veterans when he was murdered. If you can't recognize the greatness of his sacrifice and the sadness of this loss, then kindly take a break.

Not going to single anybody out. Not worth it.

Local station KDFW has been running an interview where he talks about taking out targets and how he justified doing so ethically. They were bad guys who were looking to do harm to our guys (and gals) in a combat environment so he had a clear conscience. I concur 100 percent.

quadraginta · 3rd February 2013, 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by Elypsis44

**** happens.

Now, to be fair, the killer could have just as easily used a car, pool or a bottle of 18 year-old scotch.

No way.

Somebody would have noticed if he had been packing a pool.

Puppycow · 3rd February 2013, 10:40 PM

Originally Posted by UnrepentantSinner

http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/rough...189536271.html

He was shot at a firing range being used to rehab troopers with PTSD. The suspect is a former Marine who fled the Erath County crime scene in Kyle's truck and was arrested near Lancaster (south of Dallas).

Is this standard treatment for people with PTSD?

Perhaps therapy should be left to professional therapists.

I'm sure his heart was in the right place, but just because he was an excellent sniper doesn't make him an excellent therapist.

Quote:

“It was just two great guys with Chad and Chris trying to help out a veteran in need and making time out of their day to help him. And to give him a hand. And unfortunately this thing happened,” Cox said.

Bryant seemed to confirm that scenario. The sheriff said Routh’s mother “may have reached out to Mr. Kyle to try to help her son.”

“We kind of have an idea that maybe that’s why they were at the range for some type of therapy that Mr. Kyle assists people with. And I don’t know if it’s called shooting therapy, I don’t have any idea,” Bryant said.

Lt. Cmdr. Rorke Denver, who served with Kyle on SEAL Team 3 in Iraq in 2006, called Kyle a champion of the modern battlefield. Denver wasn’t surprised that Kyle apparently used a shooting range to help someone with PTSD.

“For us, for warriors, that’s a skill set that has become very familiar, very comfortable for us,” said Denver, a lieutenant commander in a reserve SEAL team. His book “Damn Few,” about training SEALs, will be released this month. “So I actually see it as kind of a perfect use of Chris’ unique skill set and expertise of which he has very few peers.”

link

Yes, but is it good for the patient?

Color me skeptical of this sort of "therapy".

OnlyTellsTruths · 3rd February 2013, 11:33 PM

Many of the posts by the anti-gun crowd in this thread are not only sad, but quite telling.

qayak · 4th February 2013, 12:11 AM

Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths

Many of the posts by the anti-gun crowd in this thread are not only sad, but quite telling.

The whining of the pro-gun crowd in this thread is very sad and telling.

manofthesea · 4th February 2013, 12:17 AM

Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths

Many of the posts by the anti-gun crowd in this thread are not only sad, but quite telling.

My condolences to all victims of gun violence.
I own a few handguns, a .38 snub, a couple of .22 mags, all safely locked away.
But I fear gun nutters are just beginning to 'tell their story'.

SezMe · 4th February 2013, 01:29 AM

Originally Posted by R.Mackey

However, I'm not sure what bothers me more -- that so many people are so blinkered as to filter another man's death (any man) solely through their own politics, ...

I have a couple of problems with this. First, the "solely" part. I don't think you know that.

Second, the larger idea that people would "filter" their views through a political lens. Gun laws are a hot political topic now. Strong views are held on all sides. It is hard to see how engaged people would not be influenced by their political biases. Including you, R.Mackey. Including me, too. Including all the other posters in this - and other - gun related threads. Such filtering is an inevitable consequence of our inherent and inescapable confirmation biases. That you would call this "blinkered" is ... well, blinkered.

Halfcentaur · 4th February 2013, 03:36 AM

Funny that how pointing out in situations when innocents are killed that if someone were there with a gun it might not have happened isn't disrespecting the victims, but pointing out that in a situation where innocents were killed that guns in the area did not change much is somehow using the victims and their tragedy in some disrespectful way.

Is suggesting someone present and armed at a public shooting could have prevented the shooting also dancing on the graves of the victims just to pander to your political positions?

I don't recall seeing that accusation applied, rather it seems people are just angry about the issue and are trying to think of a way it could not have happened. I guess something about this is different. Perhaps not approving of armed bystanders is callous and indicative of self interest, while approving of them is just thinking of how to save the victims.

I think it's just more people spinning things to make themselves feel sanctimonious while denigrating those they disagree with as a bonus.

3rd February 2013, 11:23 AM	#41
NoahFence Psycho Kitty Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Patriot Nation Posts: 9,323	Originally Posted by triforcharity {citation needed} seycyrus' body of work should do.
	__________________ Our truest life is when we are in our dreams awake. -Henry David Thoreau

3rd February 2013, 12:13 PM	#43
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Third in line Posts: 14,881	Originally Posted by Unabogie No one is celebrating Pointing out how a particular shooting makes a case against the efficacy of the NRA's goodguy/badguy solution on gun violence, is tantamount to cruelly and heartlessly celebrating the death of the victim. You obviously weren't at The Meeting or you would know this.
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002

3rd February 2013, 12:16 PM	#44
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Third in line Posts: 14,881	To be fair though, it's certain that the fact there were many carrying gun owners at the gun range probably kept the shooter from claiming even more victims. Either that, or the shooter leaving the gun range. One of these two definitely helped prevent more deaths there.
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002

3rd February 2013, 12:40 PM	#45
joesixpack Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Edge of the continent, Pacific county, WA Posts: 3,406	Originally Posted by triforcharity Sad that the death of an American serviceman, highly decorated, and highly respected, is *almost* celebrated by people. Very sad. Funny. I'm not "almost" celebrating his death either. His death is an absolute tragedy. There is absolutely NOTHING good about this story, on any level. But I'll take issue with your "highly respected" characterization. He was a good shot and operated well in a morally ambiguous milieu. The accident of his birth put him on the same side to which you hold allegiance. But nothing about his actions make him stand out as a beacon of humanity.
	__________________ I never got in trouble by bein' ignorant, I always got in trouble 'cause I thought I wasn't.

3rd February 2013, 12:43 PM	#46
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 20,965	I don't understand. How does a guy with a gun get shot? I thought guns protected people from other guns.
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

3rd February 2013, 11:26 AM	#42
Unabogie Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 5,852	Originally Posted by triforcharity Strawman, since nobody claims the hilited. The element of surprise was on the bad guys side. The EOS is always on the attacker's side. Sad that the death of an American serviceman, highly decorated, and highly respected, is almost celebrated by people. Very sad. No one is celebrating, but your response is the classic No True Gun Pro excuse. Name a scenario more in favor of the good guys than one in which their guns are already in their hands and loaded?

3rd February 2013, 12:52 PM	#47
NoahFence Psycho Kitty Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Patriot Nation Posts: 9,323	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken I don't understand. How does a guy with a gun get shot? I thought guns protected people from other guns. MORE guns! Clearly there weren't enough guns there.
	__________________ Our truest life is when we are in our dreams awake. -Henry David Thoreau

3rd February 2013, 01:18 PM	#48
BStrong Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: California Posts: 3,810	Originally Posted by WildCat It seems like a very bad idea to me to take someone suffering from mental illness to a gun range to rehab them... seriously wtf? One of the new treatment methods for PTSD is to use video footage recreation of specific incidents involving the patient, allowing them to experience the same feelings in a safe environment with a professional there for support. I've been told it works by guys I know through Swords to Plowshares that have gone through the treatment. I often ride my motorcycle when I'm in anxiety, going into a focused mindset like that of combat without risk to anyone but myself allows me to burn it out of my mind. Professional level shooting like what Kyle would be involved with takes the same level of focus, and I understand why someone at his skill level could find relief in focusing solely on the mechanics of shooting. If the reports are to be believed, Kyle made a lapse in judgement invovling the shooter in the range day program.

3rd February 2013, 01:24 PM	#49
BStrong Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: California Posts: 3,810	I read through all the responses here now. I *********** wish I hadn't.

3rd February 2013, 01:43 PM	#51
NWO Sentryman Proud NWO Gatekeeper Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Quantum Gate to the NWO Posts: 3,774	Originally Posted by BStrong I read through all the responses here now. I *********** wish I hadn't. Welcome to politics, leave your critical thinking at the door.
	__________________ If I now say "dominoes", you won't think "pizza". Will you? - FireGarden on the Middle East

3rd February 2013, 02:15 PM	#52
Giz Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: UK/US Posts: 3,435	a lot of dancing on graves going on

3rd February 2013, 02:17 PM	#53
R.Mackey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: The armpit of L.A. Posts: 7,857	Originally Posted by BStrong I read through all the responses here now. I *********** wish I hadn't. You and me both. Respect for the fallen, please. He did a heck of a dirty job for the people of the USA, and whether we believe in or support the politics that led to it doesn't make a difference. He was engaged with trying to help other veterans when he was murdered. If you can't recognize the greatness of his sacrifice and the sadness of this loss, then kindly take a break. Not going to single anybody out. Not worth it.
	__________________ "Nothing real can defeat us. Nothing unreal exists." -B. Banzai VT VENIANT OMNES

3rd February 2013, 02:30 PM	#54
joesixpack Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Edge of the continent, Pacific county, WA Posts: 3,406	Originally Posted by Giz a lot of dancing on graves going on You should have no trouble quoting those. I frankly haven't seen anyone cheering his murder.
	__________________ I never got in trouble by bein' ignorant, I always got in trouble 'cause I thought I wasn't.

3rd February 2013, 02:53 PM	#55
joesixpack Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Edge of the continent, Pacific county, WA Posts: 3,406	Originally Posted by R.Mackey Respect for the fallen, please. I'm on board with that Quote: He did a heck of a dirty job Yes, quite dirty Quote: for the people of the USA, I'll call BS on that. I'll thank him for the fact that a few more servicemen made it back alive because of his effectiveness as a sniper, but that's about where it ends. Quote: and whether we believe in or support the politics that led to it doesn't make a difference. It makes ALL the difference if you're going to equate opposition to the war in Iraq with dancing on the grave of servicemen. Quote: He was engaged with trying to help other veterans when he was murdered. If you can't recognize the greatness of his sacrifice You're confusing sacrifice with victimization. It's not any different than if he'd been killed in the course of a convenience store hold-up. Don't try to portray his death as something it wasn't. It was a senseless murder plain and simple. Quote: and the sadness of this loss Yes, it's very sad for his family and friends. Quote: , then kindly take a break. Not going to single anybody out. Not worth it. It would be worth it if you could clear up the confusion I have. Who has been disrespectful?
	__________________ I never got in trouble by bein' ignorant, I always got in trouble 'cause I thought I wasn't.

3rd February 2013, 04:44 PM	#56
Ranb Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: WA USA Posts: 4,108	Originally Posted by Unabogie No one is celebrating, but your response is the classic No True Gun Pro excuse. Name a scenario more in favor of the good guys than one in which their guns are already in their hands and loaded? What evidence do you have to support that claim? I didn't see it in the link you posted. What makes you think that the two murder victims were actually armed at the time they were shot? Ranb

3rd February 2013, 04:56 PM	#57
Unabogie Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 5,852	Originally Posted by Ranb What evidence do you have to support that claim? I didn't see it in the link you posted. What makes you think that the two murder victims were actually armed at the time they were shot? Ranb They were at the gun range shooting? You're right, I made an assumption here, but my question still stands. Name a scenario in which you have more advantage than when you've got your gun in hand, or just nearby and loaded? Would guns have been more out of reach than at home or at the movies?

3rd February 2013, 05:43 PM	#58
Monketey Ghost Body of Work Join Date: May 2003 Location: I'm on your screen! Posts: 14,807	Originally Posted by BStrong What a loss. My heart goes out to his family. I can't believe this hasn't been echoed more. A lot of you make me sick with the issue-flogging-at-any-opportunity. This man served his country.
	__________________ _{The membership of this forum is henceforth to refer to me as potato-headed Bobby} _{SSKCAS, member in long standing}

3rd February 2013, 05:44 PM	#59
LTC8K6 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail Posts: 12,663	It's normal to hear gunfire at the range, so unless you were in a position to see what was happening, you'd have no idea anyone was being killed. The gunshots wouldn't sound any different, especially with hearing protection being worn. The way many ranges are set up, it's very possible that the other people wouldn't see the incident, and would have no idea anything was wrong until the killer was gone.
	__________________ What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?

3rd February 2013, 06:10 PM	#61
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,425	Originally Posted by R.Mackey You and me both. Respect for the fallen, please. He did a heck of a dirty job for the people of the USA, and whether we believe in or support the politics that led to it doesn't make a difference. He was engaged with trying to help other veterans when he was murdered. If you can't recognize the greatness of his sacrifice and the sadness of this loss, then kindly take a break. Not going to single anybody out. Not worth it. What is the big deal? Why is this so different from any other shooting? I don't see why a veteran is worth so much more than anyone else?
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

3rd February 2013, 06:14 PM	#62
Monketey Ghost Body of Work Join Date: May 2003 Location: I'm on your screen! Posts: 14,807	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle What is the big deal? Why is this so different from any other shooting? I don't see why a veteran is worth so much more than anyone else? Who said he was worth more than anyone else?
	__________________ _{The membership of this forum is henceforth to refer to me as potato-headed Bobby} _{SSKCAS, member in long standing}

3rd February 2013, 06:16 PM	#63
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,425	Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost Who said he was worth more than anyone else? I don't see how this thread is different from any other thread on shootings, but it disgusts him more than them, so clearly as a veteran his murder bothers many here than other murders of innocent people.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

3rd February 2013, 06:20 PM	#64
Monketey Ghost Body of Work Join Date: May 2003 Location: I'm on your screen! Posts: 14,807	I don't know about him, but it bothers me that there were so few expressions of condolence or respect.
	__________________ _{The membership of this forum is henceforth to refer to me as potato-headed Bobby} _{SSKCAS, member in long standing}

3rd February 2013, 06:23 PM	#65
BStrong Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: California Posts: 3,810	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle What is the big deal? Why is this so different from any other shooting? I don't see why a veteran is worth so much more than anyone else? I don't think anyone asserted that, but a few posters here wanted to grind their personal axe rather than mourn a loss. Bad taste at the least, ironic callousness by individuals claiming to be concerned about violence, definitely.

3rd February 2013, 06:35 PM	#66
Ranb Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: WA USA Posts: 4,108	Originally Posted by Unabogie They were at the gun range shooting? You're right, I made an assumption here, but my question still stands. Name a scenario in which you have more advantage than when you've got your gun in hand, or just nearby and loaded? Would guns have been more out of reach than at home or at the movies? You should quit while you are behind. While I can't think of any such scenario at the moment where I have a greater advantage, this is not what I experience at the local range I shoot at. The article said they were at a shooting area and were killed, not much more than that at all. I didn't see anything that said they were actually shooting there. How do you know that the two murder victims were armed or even brought guns with them Probably they did, doesn't mean those guns were loaded or within easy reach. This thread is about a couple of guys that were murdered at a shooting area presumably by some guy they were trying to help in some way. You are trying to make some sort of political statement and inventing facts to support it. Why can't you go to any of the other threads you are so damn sorry to have started and trash these people there? Shooting areas vary a lot in the USA. Some are just remote areas where people shoot at targets. Other are facilities that cater to people who want more than just pulling the trigger. There are more than a few unarmed people at many shooting areas. I work at the KRRC each weekend. Unless I am actually at a bench and shooting, I am not armed nor do I have a firearm in easy reach. If someone wanted to go nuts and start blowing people away, I would be a sitting duck. But the roads between my house and the range are far more dangerous than the range itself. Ranb

3rd February 2013, 06:46 PM	#67
Ranb Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: WA USA Posts: 4,108	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle What is the big deal? Why is this so different from any other shooting? His death is a bit different from most other people for me. He is someone I actually knew of or and read about before he was killed; kind of like John Lennon. Ranb

3rd February 2013, 07:43 PM	#68
R.Mackey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: The armpit of L.A. Posts: 7,857	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle What is the big deal? Why is this so different from any other shooting? I don't see why a veteran is worth so much more than anyone else? Originally Posted by ponderingturtle I don't see how this thread is different from any other thread on shootings, but it disgusts him more than them, so clearly as a veteran his murder bothers many here than other murders of innocent people. Now you just stop. Right there. I didn't say he was worth more than anyone else. It doesn't disgust me more than other shootings. Your suggestion that it does is repellent. For instance, I made a similar appeal for candor in the early hours of the Newtown calamity. Your inference is based on nothing other than your own preconceptions. You can keep those. Unlike the Newtown shooting, however, Kyle did happen to be a veteran. Obviously none of the schoolchildren were veterans. So it happens that the off-color remarks and rhetorical sniping in this thread are of a somewhat different complexion. But the sentiment is similar. However, I'm not sure what bothers me more -- that so many people are so blinkered as to filter another man's death (any man) solely through their own politics, or that they'll go one step further, and attempt to cast aspersions at other posters based on the most idiotic logic, in this case based on a perception of omission that isn't even true. Thanks to such ridiculous character attacks as the above, I'm beginning to reevaluate the utility of this Forum.
	__________________ "Nothing real can defeat us. Nothing unreal exists." -B. Banzai VT VENIANT OMNES

3rd February 2013, 07:46 PM	#69
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 20,965	Yes, we shouldn't talk about gun control until there is, at least, a week where no one is shot in the USA.
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

3rd February 2013, 08:58 PM	#70
UnrepentantSinner A post by Alan Smithee Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: USAian is not a word Posts: 26,356	Originally Posted by triforcharity Sad that the death of an American serviceman, highly decorated, and highly respected, is almost celebrated by people. Very sad. You might want to check out the comments on Free Republic, The Blaze, etc. before you engage in this sort of disdain. Many of them think this was a hit on a "Constitutional Conservative" by the Musllm/Communist/Gun Grabber government to send a message to patriots and/or to eliminate SEALs who might have inside information on the bogus bin Laden operation.
	__________________ I am an American citizen who is part of American society and briefly served in the American armed forces. I use American dollars and pay taxes that support the American government. And yes, despite the editorial decison to change American politics to the nonsensical "USA politics" subforum, I follow and comment on American politics.

3rd February 2013, 09:06 PM	#71
UnrepentantSinner A post by Alan Smithee Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: USAian is not a word Posts: 26,356	Originally Posted by NoahFence And isn't that always the death knell for the "cold, dead fingers" crowd? This is rock-solid proof that no, a good guy with a gun can't stop a bad guy with a gun. (IN GENERAL!!!) Because the bad guy knows what he's doing and the good guy can't see it coming. I have a gun nut coworker who is big on CHL. So was his former girlfriend. He told me some time back about how she'd hand both her DL and CHL to any law enforcement that pulled her over. Of course, to this day, I wonder why a "law abiding armed and responsible citizen" would get pulled over by the cops, but I don't mention that. About a year ago her drug addicted brother bludgeoned her to death. The schadenfreude makes me sick to this day, but I nearly bite my tongue in half when he get's all gun nutty at work and I want to simply say that having her CHL and gun didn't help her on that tragic afternoon.
	__________________ I am an American citizen who is part of American society and briefly served in the American armed forces. I use American dollars and pay taxes that support the American government. And yes, despite the editorial decison to change American politics to the nonsensical "USA politics" subforum, I follow and comment on American politics.

3rd February 2013, 09:13 PM	#72
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Third in line Posts: 14,881	"American Sniper" Chris Kyle murdered Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost This man served his country. Are you referring to Kyle or his killer? The same is true of both, and I haven't seen anyone bad-mouthing the victims.
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3rd February 2013, 09:16 PM	#73
UnrepentantSinner A post by Alan Smithee Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: USAian is not a word Posts: 26,356	Originally Posted by R.Mackey You and me both. Respect for the fallen, please. He did a heck of a dirty job for the people of the USA, and whether we believe in or support the politics that led to it doesn't make a difference. He was engaged with trying to help other veterans when he was murdered. If you can't recognize the greatness of his sacrifice and the sadness of this loss, then kindly take a break. Not going to single anybody out. Not worth it. Local station KDFW has been running an interview where he talks about taking out targets and how he justified doing so ethically. They were bad guys who were looking to do harm to our guys (and gals) in a combat environment so he had a clear conscience. I concur 100 percent.
	__________________ I am an American citizen who is part of American society and briefly served in the American armed forces. I use American dollars and pay taxes that support the American government. And yes, despite the editorial decison to change American politics to the nonsensical "USA politics" subforum, I follow and comment on American politics.

3rd February 2013, 09:36 PM	#74
quadraginta What was the question? Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility Posts: 7,910	Originally Posted by Elypsis44 **** happens. Now, to be fair, the killer could have just as easily used a car, pool or a bottle of 18 year-old scotch. No way. Somebody would have noticed if he had been packing a pool.
	__________________ "It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."

3rd February 2013, 10:40 PM	#75
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 15,761	Originally Posted by UnrepentantSinner http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/rough...189536271.html He was shot at a firing range being used to rehab troopers with PTSD. The suspect is a former Marine who fled the Erath County crime scene in Kyle's truck and was arrested near Lancaster (south of Dallas). Is this standard treatment for people with PTSD? Perhaps therapy should be left to professional therapists. I'm sure his heart was in the right place, but just because he was an excellent sniper doesn't make him an excellent therapist. Quote: “It was just two great guys with Chad and Chris trying to help out a veteran in need and making time out of their day to help him. And to give him a hand. And unfortunately this thing happened,” Cox said. Bryant seemed to confirm that scenario. The sheriff said Routh’s mother “may have reached out to Mr. Kyle to try to help her son.” “We kind of have an idea that maybe that’s why they were at the range for some type of therapy that Mr. Kyle assists people with. And I don’t know if it’s called shooting therapy, I don’t have any idea,” Bryant said. Lt. Cmdr. Rorke Denver, who served with Kyle on SEAL Team 3 in Iraq in 2006, called Kyle a champion of the modern battlefield. Denver wasn’t surprised that Kyle apparently used a shooting range to help someone with PTSD. “For us, for warriors, that’s a skill set that has become very familiar, very comfortable for us,” said Denver, a lieutenant commander in a reserve SEAL team. His book “Damn Few,” about training SEALs, will be released this month. “So I actually see it as kind of a perfect use of Chris’ unique skill set and expertise of which he has very few peers.” link Yes, but is it good for the patient? Color me skeptical of this sort of "therapy".
	__________________ “Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them. With Major Major it had been all three.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

3rd February 2013, 11:33 PM	#76
OnlyTellsTruths Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 5,790	Many of the posts by the anti-gun crowd in this thread are not only sad, but quite telling.
OnlyTellsTruths Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 5,790	__________________ ________________________

4th February 2013, 12:11 AM	#77
qayak Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8,713	Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths Many of the posts by the anti-gun crowd in this thread are not only sad, but quite telling. The whining of the pro-gun crowd in this thread is very sad and telling.
qayak Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8,713	__________________ "The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who can't read them." (Mark Twain)