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Old 5th February 2013, 02:46 PM   #361
Mister Earl
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Upgraded to 8 myself on the last day of January to save myself some money. Didn't get 8 for any specific purpose other than wanting a familiarity with the UI for troubleshooting purposes. But I have to say... I think I'm going to keep it. For a number of reasons:

1.) Very fast boot time. It really reminds me of Ubuntu in how quick I get to "desktop". Quite speedy.

2.) Better performance. I do quite a bit of gaming, online and not, and I'm usually in two to five beta tests all at once. I've noticed an immediate FPS increase I can't attribute to anything else. In example, playing "Blockscape", I went from 45fps at max settings to over 120fps. This is almost certainly an outlier, of course, but I'd say my guesstimation of overall fps increase in every game is averaging around 20fps. Still quite solid.

3.) Dead simple whack and reload. I did the over-the-internet update to 8, so I have no disc. After a day or so I decided I might as well redo it and clean (hard drives full of miscellaneous junk), and it appeared I could reinstall even without a disc. I was skeptical, but went ahead anyway because I still had a Win7 disc handy. Formatted both drives... and installed. Not sure how it did that trick... kept an open internet connection? Hidden temporary partition? Not sure.

4.) Metro. Yeah, there's a lot of hate on the metro UI, but I quite like it. It's a windows-key tap away from the desktop, and I can load various apps on it and treat it like a status update page. Once you learn how to put anything and everything on there and move stuff around and do grouping, it's really quite handy.

I definitely have the impression that the majority of the people who hate on 8 are doing so more out of historically justified suspicion and "safe betting" than from actual use. Just my humble opinion.

I think it's a keeper.
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Old 5th February 2013, 03:29 PM   #362
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I've been using Windows 8 for about a week now.

Overall, I'm satisfied with the desktop OS. It's similar to Windows 7, and it runs the software I use.

BUT, it is layered under the Android-wannabe, beta-quality mobile UI, which some may like but I don't. If there was an option to get rid of that, I think Windows 8 would be a good OS.
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Old 5th February 2013, 03:46 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by Mister Earl View Post
...I can load various apps on it and treat it like a status update page. Once you learn how to put anything and everything on there and move stuff around and do grouping...
Care to share your technique? Let's say you have a command-line window that scrolls stuff continuously, or a temperature monitoring app that normally runs on the desktop in a very small (but not minimized) state, or a status bar icon that changes colors to indicate problems?

So far in my playing, I've only gotten things that were written for tiles to display on tiles. Regular apps are restricted to the regular desktop or system tray.
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Old 5th February 2013, 05:23 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by DallasDad View Post
Care to share your technique? Let's say you have a command-line window that scrolls stuff continuously, or a temperature monitoring app that normally runs on the desktop in a very small (but not minimized) state, or a status bar icon that changes colors to indicate problems?

So far in my playing, I've only gotten things that were written for tiles to display on tiles. Regular apps are restricted to the regular desktop or system tray.
I'm not that far yet! Still just using the win8 apps. Might be a way... I'll have to look into it when I have time. But I'm fairly confident there will be tons of third party apps soon.
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Old 5th February 2013, 07:27 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by Mister Earl View Post
1.) Very fast boot time. It really reminds me of Ubuntu in how quick I get to "desktop". Quite speedy.

2.) Better performance. I do quite a bit of gaming, online and not, and I'm usually in two to five beta tests all at once. I've noticed an immediate FPS increase I can't attribute to anything else. In example, playing "Blockscape", I went from 45fps at max settings to over 120fps. This is almost certainly an outlier, of course, but I'd say my guesstimation of overall fps increase in every game is averaging around 20fps. Still quite solid.
I will admit: Windows 8 has better performance than its two most recent predecessors! No problem there!


Originally Posted by Mister Earl View Post
I definitely have the impression that the majority of the people who hate on 8 are doing so more out of historically justified suspicion and "safe betting" than from actual use. Just my humble opinion.
I dunno. A lot of items on my "reasons to dislike" list are genuinely bad ideas:

Having a Search Results screen that tells you there are "no results" even though there are some. (You have to click a different spot to see them.)

Lack of persistent on-screen items: Clock, volume control, status message area, etc.

Splitting Modern UI and Desktop apps into their own world, even giving each one its own separate task list, on different parts of the screen.

Etc.

These are items that ONLY GET WORSE with more use, for many people. Even after someone "gets used to it", they still might find some of the convenient aspects of Windows 7's UI to be rather refreshing.


Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes View Post
If there was an option to get rid of that, I think Windows 8 would be a good OS.
There is, if you install a Start Button replacement utility. The best one seems to be Start8, at $5.00. There are also some free alternatives, if you would rather not pay anything.
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Old 6th February 2013, 02:27 AM   #366
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All in all, I'm satisfied by 7 and see no compelling need to switch. It's a bit faster, which is good, but 7 is very fast on the new laptop anyway.
(There was the option of either 7, 8 or no OS. I went with 7).
I find it really odd that a company as big as Microsoft is so bad at advertising the strengths of its products. In fact, now I think about it, that seems to be a feature of the entire software industry. First you have to buy it, then you get to find out if it does what you want.

I have nothing against 8, but the days when I got excited about an OS release are long over.
Very 19th century.

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Old 6th February 2013, 03:07 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
There is, if you install a Start Button replacement utility. The best one seems to be Start8, at $5.00. There are also some free alternatives, if you would rather not pay anything.
I haven't tried it myself but here's a relatively simple free method:

http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/win...e-desktop/6976
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Old 6th February 2013, 04:54 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by ohms View Post
Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
There is, if you install a Start Button replacement utility. The best one seems to be Start8, at $5.00. There are also some free alternatives, if you would rather not pay anything.
I haven't tried it myself but here's a relatively simple free method:

http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/win...e-desktop/6976

Good stuff, ohms. Thanks for the link.

That article offered some other links. This one more closely mirrors my experience with the whole Start Screen debacle.

You don’t really need a Start Menu in Windows 8

IOW, I still don't understand what the fuss is all about. The tip in your link is interesting, and provides a good walk-through for using the task scheduler, but it seems like the long way 'round.

About the only time I even see the new start screen is when I log on anyway, unless I make a point of bringing it up.

I rarely need to.

When I log on, in addition to a convenient factory-installed icon labeled "Desktop", I also have several of my most used applications (browser, mail, etc.) all clustered together in the lower right of the screen. Any of which starts up in the standard Windows screen, which promptly gives me the same access as the 'fix' in your link does.

From there everything else I might normally want is waiting for me on the Task Bar, which I have on "auto-hide" so it doesn't use up any screen real-estate until I need it.

This provides almost exactly the same access as I was accustomed to in XP, and in some ways more, since all my running apps are waiting for me on the left side of the screen ... also hidden 'til I need them.

I never spent enough time going to the "traditional" Start Menu to miss it all that much. Sure I used it from time to time, but I'd go the the Desktop as much or more often, where I had more of my most commonly needed resources as shortcuts.

I used Stardock's "Fences" to keep them all sorted out by whatever relationships I found most convenient. It probably ought to be noted that this sorting ability is one of the "new" features of the Win8 start screen. I'm a little bit surprised that MS hasn't been raked over the coal by the ravening pack for 'stealing' the idea, but I guess that might make it harder to criticize other stuff as being too difficult.

I haven't really started using it yet to customize, but I can see it coming.

So after my first six weeks or so of jumping into Win8 cold ... on a non-touchscreen machine (although the touchpad does recognize gestures) ... I'm not even a little bit homesick for "those old, familiar places" as the song goes.

From everything I have read, here and elsewhere, combined with my own personal experience so far, I am forced to conclude that the entire Start Menu agony is largely manufactured to provide the Pundit aristocracy with something to criticize.

It's just not that big of a deal.
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Old 6th February 2013, 08:30 AM   #369
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I don't use the start menu either, and I don't miss it. I created a shortcut to a shutdown command, decorated it with an icon, and put it in my taskbar, and that's all the functionality I need.

My complaint is more a matter of principle. MS is shoving this new UI in my face instead of letting me decide when and if I might want to use it. And by taking this heavy-handed approach, they mar what is otherwise a refined and attractive desktop environment.

MS is so desperate to be in on what's "hot" that they are losing sight of their market. If I wanted a stripped-down UI tweaked for passive content, I'd have bought an Android stick instead of a laptop.
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Old 6th February 2013, 10:39 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Well, yeah, you don't really NEED a Start Menu....

...I mean, unless you like having a one-stop-shop for all of the applications, settings, and documents you use; all in one convenient place... that you don't even need to spend much time customizing!


If you think the argument in the article is valid, here are a few others you might enjoy:

You really don't need a clock in the OS, either. You could just put one on your desk.

You don't need volume controls or shut down icons! Those are baby toys! Use the buttons and knobs built into your hardware!

Does anyone really need application shortcut icons, at all? Why can't we all learn to navigate to the folders where applications are, to run them, just like we did in the DOS era! Everyone was able to run applications in DOS!
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Old 6th February 2013, 02:57 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
Well, yeah, you don't really NEED a Start Menu....

...I mean, unless you like having a one-stop-shop for all of the applications, settings, and documents you use; all in one convenient place... that you don't even need to spend much time customizing!


If you think the argument in the article is valid, here are a few others you might enjoy:

You really don't need a clock in the OS, either. You could just put one on your desk.

Or I could use the one over on the right end of the task bar line, just past the minimized icon tray.

Same place it was in XP.

Or I could use the great big one on the left that comes up whenever I float my cursor down the Charms bar.

Or, if I find myself trapped in the Dreaded Metro UI Start Screen Wasteland™, I could use the one embedded in the Calender widget.

Failing all of those I suppose I could use the one on my desk, but that's in another room, probably the farthest away of all the other hardware clocks around the house. Like my watch. Or phone. Or DVR display. Or the clock on the mantle. Microwave. Stove. Coffee maker. Toothbrush. Or damn near anywhere else I look. It's hard to avoid a time display of some sort in a modern household.

Or in Windows 8, either.

Quote:
You don't need volume controls or shut down icons! Those are baby toys! Use the buttons and knobs built into your hardware!

Yup, I could.

Or I could use the volume control over on the right end of the task bar line, just past the minimized icon tray, next to the time and date.

Same as XP.

I'm not sure which icons you're having trouble shutting down, or why that's a terrible problem to begin with. I haven't run into any bothersome icons that I can't make go away. The ones I can't get rid of I apparently don't want to yet. Gimme some time, though. Mebbe something will turn up.

Quote:
Does anyone really need application shortcut icons, at all? Why can't we all learn to navigate to the folders where applications are, to run them, just like we did in the DOS era! Everyone was able to run applications in DOS!

I don't know. Why should they do that?

I still have application shortcuts all over my desktop. Am I doing it wrong?

If anything I feel like my search and navigation tools have been expanded, not reduced.

Sometimes I'm not sure we're discussing the same OS, since I don't seem to have been blindsided by all these fatal flaws you keep bringing up.

Sure, there are things that are different, and some of them may not be perfectly intuitive to those of us who are sufficiently set in their ways, but if there's something I expect the OS to be able to do, I've generally been able to find it. In the process of looking I often learn lots of other stuff that comes in handy, too. That's not time wasted in my view.

Yeah, it might take a bit of looking, but that's not unreasonable. I spent a lot more time trying to figure out how to do things I thought should be straightforward switching from command line UNIX and DOS to GUI Windows.

So far this transition has been a piece of cake by comparison. It isn't showing signs of getting worse, either. Quite the contrary.
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Old 6th February 2013, 06:59 PM   #372
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I've been running Windows 8 since Jan 31 and I'm quite happy with it. I don't understand all the animosity. Took all of about 10 minutes to adjust to the new UI.

So far, I don't miss the Start menu. If I decide I want it back, I'll just install Classic Shell (free), or Start8 (inexpensive). Stardock even offers a 30 day free trial for Start8.

I use pin to taskbar, taskbar toolbars, and notification area icons, for everything I want fast access to. Just like I did in Windows 7.

If I could just find a driver to enable Windows 8 gestures on my touchpad, I'd have no complaints.

Last edited by WWBDD; 6th February 2013 at 07:00 PM.
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Old 6th February 2013, 08:22 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by WWBDD View Post
So far, I don't miss the Start menu. If I decide I want it back, I'll just install Classic Shell (free), or Start8 (inexpensive). Stardock even offers a 30 day free trial for Start8.

I've just been skimming this thread every once in awhile and I have a question.

In Windows XP and 7 there is freeware that does pretty much everything you could want.

What exactly is Stardock doing with Start8 that is so complicated that there is not an exactly the same freeware version yet by a competitor??

It's been months.

Or are we only talking about that version of Windows 8 where you have to buy things from the app store?
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Old 6th February 2013, 08:56 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths View Post
What exactly is Stardock doing with Start8 that is so complicated that there is not an exactly the same freeware version yet by a competitor??
Nothing, as far as I know. Classic Shell is freeware that apparently does everything Start8 can, and more. I haven't looked into either very much yet. I just like the thought that I could try both for free.

Last edited by WWBDD; 6th February 2013 at 08:57 PM. Reason: Broken quote.
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Old 6th February 2013, 09:29 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by WWBDD View Post
Nothing, as far as I know. Classic Shell is freeware that apparently does everything Start8 can, and more. I haven't looked into either very much yet. I just like the thought that I could try both for free.

OK.

It's just odd that it has been months and people are still suggesting something that costs $5.

I merely assumed that must be because it is doing something complicated or proprietary.

So you are sure that it isn't?

For instance, if someone started a thread asking how to convert .wav to .mp3 or .bmp to .jpg, no one would suggest they get anything except freeware.

Could this be a form of buyers remorse (or, more specifically, some kind of early adapter remorse).

IOW, Start8 was the first one available. So they charged $5. People that bought it then are still suggesting it because they had to pay, even though there are presumably countless freeware versions in the works or already available.
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Old 6th February 2013, 11:08 PM   #376
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Yes, there are free plug-ins to replace the Start Menu. I just happen to like Start8 the most, even though it costs $5.00 to keep it longer than the trial period.

Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Or I could use the one over on the right end of the task bar line, just past the minimized icon tray.
Just to clarify: I know the 3 examples of other things "we don't need" that I listed are in Windows 8.

I was making a point that an operating system can still be usable without a ton of stuff that typically comes with it. If, for some reason, Microsoft decided to completely remove all clocks from the OS, as well as all power buttons and volume controls, and (for an encore) completely removes the concept of shortcut icons... The OS can still be used! Technically, we don't NEED any of those things.

I could list others: Search functions (for years the OS never had them built in), web browsers (install one yourself!), help files, any and all of the built-in accessory apps, etc. Perhaps even the whole idea of a Start menu/screen.

But, for some reason, they make life on the computer easier, so we keep them around. (Even if some of them are now stuck in places that are a bit more odd than usual.)

My point is this:

The argument that "we don't need a start button" is, technically, true. That doesn't mean we should ditch it.

You don't need to have climate control in your car, either. It took decades before they became standard features. But, good luck selling one without it, today!
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Old 9th February 2013, 10:18 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Sometimes I'm not sure we're discussing the same OS, since I don't seem to have been blindsided by all these fatal flaws you keep bringing up.
Some pages back I tried to get wowbagger to tell us how much he had actually used the OS, he avoided answering.

So he's talking about the OS that the anti-MS fanboys want us to believe it is, rather than what it actually is

It seems more and more people are actually using it and coming to the same conclusion I did, rather than believing the tech press.
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Old 9th February 2013, 11:42 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Some pages back I tried to get wowbagger to tell us how much he had actually used the OS, he avoided answering.
You've gone from someone with merely a different viewpoint to someone who is either dishonest, or has a poor memory:

Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
The final release version: I used it for a few hours, every few days, since the last weekend.

But, I have played with pre-release versions in the same way, before that, hoping they would get better.
Since I wrote that, I have used Window 8 a bit more. The performance improvements got to become more noticable. But, the built-in UI is still just as crappy... for a KVM system.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
So he's talking about the OS that the anti-MS fanboys want us to believe it is, rather than what it actually is
I think I already mentioned most of this, but I guess it bares emphasis:

I am NOT an "anti-MS fanboy". I still develop software primarily with their tools and platforms (.NET), and that is probably not going to change any time soon.

I use Windows operating systems as the primary OS for all of my computers*, though none of them have Win8 except as a VM inside a host, right now.

(*Except the Mac, but even that has Windows 7 in a VM. And, my smartphone runs with Android, but even that has bits of Windows emulator stuff on it.)

My next computer, probably an Ultrabook, will likely be Windows 8-based. But, I will have to spend time configuring the UI, since I won't always use it as a touch device. (Software development tasks rarely benefit from the touch interface.)

Also, for the record, I own some stock in the Microsoft Corporation.

I WANT Windows 8 to succeed! But, I can not honestly say Windows 8 was "well designed" in the UI department. My objective measures of such things indicate that the decisions Microsoft made for how the UI works in Windows 8 were mostly lousy ones.


For example: There is no technical reason why Modern UI apps and standard Desktop can't share the same taskbar area.

Even VMs allow you to do that! I can run Windows XP applications in Windows 7, using "WinXP Mode", right on the same taskbar as those running natively in Win7!
On the Mac, I can run Windows 7 applications on The Dock, along-side Mac-native applications, using Parallels software.

Those are objective facts. Not opinions. And, they would not change if I happened to be "anti-Microsoft" or not.

Forcing the Modern UI and Desktop apps into different task lists is a step in the wrong direction for usability, simplicity, and productivity.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
It seems more and more people are actually using it and coming to the same conclusion I did, rather than believing the tech press.
We've been through this before: Just because people are "getting used to it" doesn't mean it's a good design. Stockholm syndrome is a real thing. Why can't "Charms Syndrome" also be just as real?

I am sure there are more "hidden" struggles with Windows 8, than there were with all previous versions since Windows 95.
One way we could test for this is to see how many Windows 8 users feel "more relieved" when moving back to Window 7 or any other version (from 95 on up). I do not know of any such studies, yet. But, I am willing to bet the outcome will not favor Windows 8 very much. Especially for KVM users.

Another thing we can check on is just how popular Start button replacement software downloads are.
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Old 9th February 2013, 02:33 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
One way we could test for this is to see how many Windows 8 users feel "more relieved" when moving back to Window 7 or any other version (from 95 on up). I do not know of any such studies, yet. But, I am willing to bet the outcome will not favor Windows 8 very much. Especially for KVM users.

Another thing we can check on is just how popular Start button replacement software downloads are.
I wouldn't go back, because I can tell they have tweaked the code and made some improvements under the hood.

I just click through the Modern UI. When it pops up because I brush the touchpad in a certain way, I know how to swat it away, and I'm learning how to avoid such intrusions.

The Modern UI is not a problem for users as much as it is a reflection of the problem MS faces. They are trying to leverage their desktop franchise to get into the touch screen market, but it won't work because nobody has a stable franchise in that market. Money flows to whoever releases the most appealing products, and that will never be MS.
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Old 9th February 2013, 03:05 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
For example: There is no technical reason why Modern UI apps and standard Desktop can't share the same taskbar area.
Gee, I guess you disagree with all those reviews complaining about the usability of the taskbar in desktop mode on Surface RT while using it in tablet mode then ....

Ridiculous reviews of course, since you're not supposed to be using the desktop mode when the hardware is in tablet configuration.
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Old 9th February 2013, 03:16 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
Another thing we can check on is just how popular Start button replacement software downloads are.
Classic shell has been downloaded from their website about 130,000 times, so assuming no duplicate downloads (a big assumption), that covers 0.2% of windows 8 licences sold ....

Start 8 claims to have had 3 million downloads, so again, assuming no duplicates as it new release came out (hahaha), that means a whopping 5% of Windows 8 licences have downloaded it to at least try.
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Old 9th February 2013, 03:41 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes View Post
I wouldn't go back, because I can tell they have tweaked the code and made some improvements under the hood.
Yes, I agree that that they improved a few things under the hood.

If Windows 8 were a car, it'd have a Ferarri engine... and steering wheel that, for some reason, is in the backseat, and you have to fold it out of a container, first.

Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes View Post
They are trying to leverage their desktop franchise to get into the touch screen market,
Apple faced a similar problem.

Granted, their iOS solution is not for power users. But, at least the UI is better designed.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Gee, I guess you disagree with all those reviews complaining about the usability of the taskbar in desktop mode on Surface RT while using it in tablet mode then ....
Wait, what?!

Those reviews you are referring, I think, to are complaining about the dual interface: One thing for Modern UI, another for the Desktop...

THE SAME THING I WAS POINTING OUT!

See:
PART of the problem with having dual interfaces, is that you now have 2 task lists: One for Modern UI, the other for Desktop.

There are other issues as well. But, that is one of the reasons those reviews complained about the usability.


Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Ridiculous reviews of course, since you're not supposed to be using the desktop mode when the hardware is in tablet configuration.
Then why, on Earth, would they put it in tablets?!
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Old 9th February 2013, 04:01 PM   #383
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It's really difficult to find them discussed , or even highlighted, because of the obvious IU issues we've al been talking about, but once you get onto the desktop , can anyone list some of the other obvious improvements in Win 8 apart from faster boot up?
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Old 9th February 2013, 04:22 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
Then why, on Earth, would they put it in tablets?!
Is that a serious question? Really?

Because it's not just a tablet.

Once they improve the battery life, Surface Pro is my ideal device. Sit it on my desk, plug it in to my large screen, and I have a full PC with extended display.

Leave my desk, I can pick up the Surface screen and have a tablet for use around the house or business presentations or whatever.

Take it on a trip with the typecover and I have a fully functioning laptop for use in hotels/cafes etc, and a fully functioning tablet while on the train/plane whatever.

Why have two devices and need to synchronize everything when I can have one device that does all I need?
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Old 9th February 2013, 04:24 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by Rrose Selavy View Post
It's really difficult to find them discussed , or even highlighted, because of the obvious IU issues we've al been talking about, but once you get onto the desktop , can anyone list some of the other obvious improvements in Win 8 apart from faster boot up?
I've found the ability to have separate taskbars on multiple screens to be very useful. The Quick Access menu is very handy too.

Task Manager is also significantly updated.
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Old 9th February 2013, 05:07 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Because it's not just a tablet.
Well, maybe if it had a better designed UI, this would not even be an issue.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Once they improve the battery life, Surface Pro is my ideal device. Sit it on my desk, plug it in to my large screen, and I have a full PC with extended display.
The Surface Pro is appealing, to a certain degree. But, yes, it does need better battery life and also storage space. (And, of course, a better UI.)

It officially launched, today. But, I won't be able to look at one in person until Monday.

I hear some people don't like the kickstand approach. They prefer the hinge-like screen of standard laptops. But, I don't even recall that being an issue with the first Surface, for some reason. Perhaps more people intend to use the Pro as a laptop replacement.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
I've found the ability to have separate taskbars on multiple screens to be very useful.
It is interesting that the taskbar works better on multiple screens, but the new stuff: The Modern UI and its related full-screen screens, are hard to use on multiple monitors. It's like one team worked on improving multi-monitor support, but they forgot to consult with the other team.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
The Quick Access menu is very handy too.
Oh, you mean... the Start-Menu-like thing?! Yes, that is handy. I think more people would probably use it, if there was... I dunno... some sort of on-screen button for it, or something...

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Task Manager is also significantly updated.
This is true!

And, as I stated before, I do like how the ribbon works in the Windows File Explorer. That is the one significant exception to the otherwise lousy UI.
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Old 9th February 2013, 05:56 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
Well, maybe if it had a better designed UI, this would not even be an issue.

The Surface Pro is appealing, to a certain degree. But, yes, it does need better battery life and also storage space. (And, of course, a better UI.)
More FUD. The Surface Pro 128 has more space available for user use than the Mac Air, for which most people didn't spend an inordinate amount of time focusing on the space.

Quote:
I hear some people don't like the kickstand approach.
I think they'll need to look at a solution for multiple angles.

Quote:
It is interesting that the taskbar works better on multiple screens, but the new stuff: The Modern UI and its related full-screen screens, are hard to use on multiple monitors.
I only use a handful of the MUI apps but have no problem with them all on multiple monitors. Extremely easy to use in fact.

Quote:
Oh, you mean... the Start-Menu-like thing?! Yes, that is handy. I think more people would probably use it, if there was... I dunno... some sort of on-screen button for it, or something...
Isn't great how they don't clog up the screen with unnecessary stuff? I think so. BTW, if you're still using Windows 7, there's a hidden function you probably haven't found - you can't right click in LOTS of places and get a very functional menu.

I'm guessing you didn't know about that, since there was no onscreen cues ...
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Old 9th February 2013, 07:43 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
More FUD. The Surface Pro 128 has more space available for user use than the Mac Air, for which most people didn't spend an inordinate amount of time focusing on the space.
I like to put lots of things on my machines.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Isn't great how they don't clog up the screen with unnecessary stuff?
Isn't it awful how such necessary and useful components aren't even advertised as being there, at least for those who are new to the system?

Isn't it great how they decided to put a Start button on the screen, in Windows 95, so people could easily figure out where to go for stuff?

And, if YOU don't like the button, if you think it's too much clutter, then YOU could hide it or remove it.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
I think so. BTW, if you're still using Windows 7, there's a hidden function you probably haven't found - you can't right click in LOTS of places and get a very functional menu.
Right click menus are meant to be used as auxiliary menus, not for main functionality. (Sometimes they contain secondary shortcuts to doing certain tasks, but the principal way to get at those tasks is still available in other locations, often also on screen.)

Not all mice have right menu buttons. Some mouse users can't click the right button, even if one exists. A well designed OS would account for that.





At least Windows 8 has a better install program than Fedora 18. Aaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrgh!
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Old 9th February 2013, 08:06 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by Rrose Selavy View Post
It's really difficult to find them discussed , or even highlighted, because of the obvious IU issues we've al been talking about, but once you get onto the desktop , can anyone list some of the other obvious improvements in Win 8 apart from faster boot up?
I got a new laptop because I live off the grid, with a home power system, and I want something to edit video that doesn't take as much power as the desktop machine I put together when I was mostly living on the mainland.

So, the focus of my testing has been on video software. My new computer doesn't render video as fast as my Windows 7 desktop, because the hardware isn't as powerful, but video editing is smooth, even though I'm loading both application and data from a single, 5400 rpm hdd versus the 7,200 rpm secondary hdd for data on my desktop box. It's better than I expected from a 32-bit NLE on a budget laptop that is marketed for "everyday computing."

Avidemux, which I use to scan through key frames and sometimes for transcoding and simple editing, works more smoothly with big files.

Applications open faster. Gimp opens much faster... I don't know if you have used Gimp, but it takes longer to load than anything else I use.

I don't know enough about the technology to know what they have done, but I can tell they have made some improvements. It's just a tighter, more responsive OS than Windows 7.
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Old 10th February 2013, 12:00 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by OnlyTellsTruths View Post
I merely assumed that must be because it is doing something complicated or proprietary.

So you are sure that it isn't?
No, I'm not. It's entirely possible that Start8 has some functionality I'm not aware of, or just performs better than other options. I haven't tried it yet.

I will say that if Object Dock and Fences are any indication, I don't expect to be impressed with Start8. I tried both before I upgraded to Windows 8. They were horrible. They both had a significant effect on boot time which was completely unacceptable to me. Fences turned out to be useless to me anyway as I barely use my desktop. I'm a taskbar lover. I wanted to love Object Dock. Who wouldn't love a second taskbar? It wasn't useful enough to justify the extra twenty seconds of waiting for my system to start.

I installed Classic Shell a few days ago. I'll probably remove it because I simply don't need it. I finally managed to get the full complement of Windows 8 gestures enabled on my touch pad. With gestures, taskbar customization, the "Power User's Menu", and programmable mouse functions, everything I need to do is just a finger movement or three away.
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Old 10th February 2013, 12:17 AM   #391
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Re: Windows 8 another Vista?

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
I've found the ability to have separate taskbars on multiple screens to be very useful. The Quick Access menu is very handy too.

Task Manager is also significantly updated.
I found 8's task manager rather bad, actually. But I can just download Sysinternal's Process Explorer, so.
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Old 10th February 2013, 04:17 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
Isn't it awful how such necessary and useful components aren't even advertised as being there, at least for those who are new to the system?
RTFM

Quote:
Isn't it great how they decided to put a Start button on the screen, in Windows 95, so people could easily figure out where to go for stuff?
Isn't it great how, 20 years later, they assume people aren't idiots and now have a clue?

Quote:
And, if YOU don't like the button, if you think it's too much clutter, then YOU could hide it or remove it.
And, if YOU like the button, if you want more clutter, then YOU could add it with Classic Shell

Quote:
Right click menus are meant to be used as auxiliary menus, not for main functionality.
Which is how it is implemented in Windows 8, so your point is?
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Old 10th February 2013, 05:45 AM   #393
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Re: Windows 8 another Vista?

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
RTFM



Isn't it great how, 20 years later, they assume people aren't idiots and now have a clue?



And, if YOU like the button, if you want more clutter, then YOU could add it with Classic Shell



Which is how it is implemented in Windows 8, so your point is?
Psst: RTFM means you've already failed ease of use.
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Old 10th February 2013, 07:04 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
RTFM
We've been through this before. I never had to RTFM manual for any other OS with a graphical UI.

Either get some new arguments, or go home already!

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Isn't it great how, 20 years later, they assume people aren't idiots and now have a clue?
Isn't it great that anyone who has used Windows before will feel completely alienated by the UI, at first?

Isn't it just wonderful how the new PC user is left with little direction for where to get anything they need from the system?

Oh, and isn't it just all sweet, fine, and dandy that one has to download a 3rd party utility to bring back that sort of convenient one-stop-shop functionality, for all of their programs, settings, documents, search, and shutdown options?

ETA: Also, I don't think Microsoft's motivation for ditching the Start button had anything to do with users not being "idiots". It had a lot more to do with pushing and enforcing their touch-centric UI as the "one interface" for everything. They forgot that different platforms have different usability requirements.

Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Which is how it is implemented in Windows 8, so your point is?
The Quick Access menu is much too central a feature, for many users, to be left to an auxiliary menu.
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Old 10th February 2013, 09:14 AM   #395
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On a related note: How hard is it to remove the Win 8 bootloader when you're moving OS's?
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Old 10th February 2013, 11:23 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
ETA: Also, I don't think Microsoft's motivation for ditching the Start button had anything to do with users not being "idiots". It had a lot more to do with pushing and enforcing their touch-centric UI as the "one interface" for everything. They forgot that different platforms have different usability requirements.
They've got a real problem on their hands. Most people can do everything they want with a touch screen device. They don't need a full desktop environment.

MS belatedly figured that out and went into panic mode. Putting a phone UI on the desktop is their brilliant solution.

I don't think it will deliver the result they hope for. Has anyone noticed that this Surface Pro "sell-out" was engineered by only shipping two units per outlet?
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Old 10th February 2013, 12:59 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes View Post
Has anyone noticed that this Surface Pro "sell-out" was engineered by only shipping two units per outlet?
I don't know about that, myself. But, to be fair: The Surface Pro does not seem to be that bad a device. As far as hardware goes.
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Old 10th February 2013, 01:47 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by KoihimeNakamura View Post
Psst: RTFM means you've already failed ease of use.
Rubbish. Just because something is findable doesn't mean that RTFM means you won't find it quicker. Everything in the quick access menu is easily accessible via the normal menu as well.

Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
We've been through this before. I never had to RTFM manual for any other OS with a graphical UI.
I wonder how many things you've missed out on over the years? Do you know there's an entire industry of books and courses on how to get the most out of particular OSs?

Quote:
Either get some new arguments, or go home already!
You talking to a mirror?

Quote:
Isn't it great that anyone who has used Windows before will feel completely alienated by the UI, at first?
Isn't it great how NOBODY I know, including myself, who has moved to Windows 8 has felt "completely alienated by the UI".

I fully understand how tough it might be for you, but my 6 year old migrated no trouble at all.

Quote:
Isn't it just wonderful how the new PC user is left with little direction for where to get anything they need from the system?
Isn't it wonderful how the program comes complete with a supermodel, gender of your choice, to sit on the desk and explain stuff to you?

See, I can just make $£%& up too!
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Old 10th February 2013, 04:57 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
I don't know about that, myself. But, to be fair: The Surface Pro does not seem to be that bad a device. As far as hardware goes.
This is typical of what I have been seeing in the news coverage:

I went to the Best Buy website a couple of days ago to get phone numbers to my local stores so I could call and see what they might have available and figure out if it was worth my time to camp out.

[ ... ]

I went to the store an hour before opening today and there was one other kid in his car. As I was about to get out and be first in line at 9:30, an email arrived from Brian. He let me know that they only had two 64GB units and zero 128GB units to sell.9:45 and there were already two in line so that store was going to sell out.

[ ... ]

Even though I called Staples a couple days earlier and they had no idea if they would get the Surface Pro, I drove the two miles down the road to visit them. I was first up to the counter when they opened and the manager came to tell me they did not have any. She did say that UPS often comes on launch day and delivers things so she took my name and phone number. She called just a short while ago and told me that one 64GB model came in and it was mine if I wanted it. I thanked her very much for the call and told her to go ahead and sell it to the next person in line as I really needed the 128GB model.


http://www.zdnet.com/microsoft-blows...ce-7000011080/

MS of course put out a statement about how they are working hard to meet the incredible demand... blech. I pity them.
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Old 10th February 2013, 06:49 PM   #400
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I have not used Win8 yet, and so far, nothing any of its supporters have said here convinces me that it's worth a look. I am curious though, about the supposed performance improvements. When I first switched from XP to Win7, I was impressed with the faster boot time, until I turned back on all the stuff that I use regularly which was there by default in XP, but removed/turned off + plus hidden in multiple nested menus or new non-intuitive locations in Win7. Then the performance dropped right back to what I'd had with XP in the first place. Are the current performance improvements for real, or did MS just pull another fast one?
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