If anybody could pass the challenge, why would they?

[JDC]

Originally Posted by Jomante

... Wouldn't just about every government in the world want to figure out how to exploit that capability? If I had the capability I'd be afraid that the governments would want to coerce me into doing something I didn't want to by manipulating my loved ones, or they'd want to subject me to millions of tests to try to figure out how it works so that they can train their elite squads with the capability, or even want to kill me and dissect my brain to figure out how I'm doing it.
...

Well, you'd think it out a bit a collect a personal security force before going public and use the media to your advantage.

You would revolutionize our conception of humans, Earth, the Universe and ... figuratively, open doors to whole new worlds of research and understanding. You would be the most famous person on the planet ... at least for a little while.

Even with minimal hoopla, children 1000 years from now would learn about you!

You could have some control of your life, in all this--you could go minimal and recluse or ... some sort of super Tony Stark mega-celebrity. Even without you, it would change everything.

The power, responsibility and decisions would be ... monumental.

[jsfisher]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

No, although in some cases it would be honorable to return the objects to their rightful owners if possible. If one could locate sunken treasure, the owners of which are dead, I think that would be honest.

The buying stocks thing seems like you could rationalize that, but it's similar to insider trading, which is illegal, in that you are taking advantage of information that the other party isn't privy to make a trade that is to their disadvantage although they don't realize it.

If you could find oil, there's probably an honest way to use that ability to make lots of money, without ripping anyone off. Oil companies would probably pay you a lot of money to help them find oil for example. I'm sure there's a way that this could be done ethically without keeping the info secret from unsuspecting landowners.

Suppose I do these things by non-psychic means, secret or otherwise? Is the use of a metal detector along the beach immoral? How about an uber-secret market analysis algorithm, known only to me, that's been twenty years in development?

[Horatius]

Originally Posted by Ladewig

Which of these is stealing (if any)

seeing the future and buying land before oil is discovered.
seeing the future and buying stocks to make a profit.
seeing the future and playing blackjack in a casino.
seeing the future and betting on sports.
seeing the future and playing poker
reading minds and playing poker.
telekineticly manipulating the dice while playing craps.

I'd say the first two aren't stealing, and the rest are stealing. I'd mostly agree with this:

Originally Posted by jsfisher

Suppose I do these things by non-psychic means, secret or otherwise? Is the use of a metal detector along the beach immoral? How about an uber-secret market analysis algorithm, known only to me, that's been twenty years in development?

With the stocks and oil, it's expected that people will use whatever information they can get to influence their choices. Outside of the specific cases of Insider trading that are specifically illegal, it's pretty much all fair game.

For the gambling examples, the games have rules (even if unwritten), and the expectation is that those rules will be followed by all players. Part of the rules bars the use of any external means to find out your opponent's cards, or to influence the randomness of the game. Using psychic powers seems no different than using mirrors or magnets to alter the outcome.

[jsfisher]

Originally Posted by Horatius

For the gambling examples, the games have rules (even if unwritten), and the expectation is that those rules will be followed by all players. Part of the rules bars the use of any external means to find out your opponent's cards, or to influence the randomness of the game. Using psychic powers seems no different than using mirrors or magnets to alter the outcome.

I was thinking more of clairvoyance for the psychic skill rather than something manipulative.

[Ladewig]

Originally Posted by jsfisher

I was thinking more of clairvoyance for the psychic skill rather than something manipulative.

I was too.
That's why I tried to separate seeing the future, reading minds and manipulating dice/balls telekineticly.

[r-j]

Originally Posted by JJM 777

For the same reason why politicians, business leaders and celebrities have bodyguards. Heck, Benny Hinn has a horde of bodyguards at every meeting, and he lives in a gated and guarded area of rich people. .

That is exactly why I refuse to be rich or famous. I hate dealing with bodyguards, and those gated communities are a downer.

[deaman]

Nobody has passed the test, because nobody can.

[r-j]

And nobody ever will. Same for the test to prove that a human being can fly with out any equipment.

[r-j]

It's a mistake to think the challenge is an actual test. It's more of a bet. Except somehow it's legal.

I often want to be able to do the same thing with people who make false claims, but there again, that not being famous thing prevents it.

And not having a million dollars.

[Ladewig]

Originally Posted by r-j

It's a mistake to think the challenge is an actual test. It's more of a bet. Except somehow it's legal.
.

If Randi "loses" he pays one million dollars.
If the applicant loses he does not pay anything.

If someone is offering million-to-zero odds, it is more like ... I don't know ... a contract? A promise of a gift? A contest with a prize? A challenge with a reward?

[r-j]

Good point. It's not gambling, but it is a wager. Since one side is putting up money, and the other is not, it's almost a reward.

[deaman]

So simple. Step right up, prove your statement, collect your cash. Done.

Nobody has collected!

[r-j]

Nobody has collected the prize for flying with no technology or devices. You could offer a billion dollars for that, and not worry about anyone winning.

If your reward challenge is by definition, an offer to pay money for something that is by definition impossible, it's a pretty safe offer.

[bruto]

Originally Posted by r-j

Nobody has collected the prize for flying with no technology or devices. You could offer a billion dollars for that, and not worry about anyone winning.

If your reward challenge is by definition, an offer to pay money for something that is by definition impossible, it's a pretty safe offer.

But for a very large number of people, at whom the challenge is ostensibly aimed, impossibility is conspicuously and vociferously not in the definition.

Of course if one were really a seer of some sort, and secretly cleaning up on the stock market, or in possession of a skill so valuable that it risks kidnapping or government imprisonment, I can see why one would stay secret. But I can't really imagine why a person who already has gone public with a psychic skill would not take the challenge and be the first and only person to prove its worth. Unless, of course, that person is a fraud. Which is, of course, why the bet is safe, and also, I suspect, a principal reason it exists at all.

[Toke]

There must be some doublethink involved.
People who believe in their powers, and at the same time know to stay away from any controlled experiments.

[r-j]

As a rational person, I view claims of psychic powers, and God, the same as somebody claiming they can fly. Show me.

As Randi would say,
"I will pay you a million dollars if you can."

[r-j]

Knowing some religious people, they actually think it doesn't matter if they can prove it. belief is all they care about. Same for deluded psychics.

The frauds, that is another story. Obviously none of them will ever apply.

[Toke]

Originally Posted by r-j

Knowing some religious people, they actually think it doesn't matter if they can prove it. belief is all they care about. Same for deluded psychics.

Did not think of it, but yes saw a few on the truther sites.

Quote:

The frauds, that is another story. Obviously none of them will ever apply.

That is kind of the point.

[r-j]

I knoooow!

[Pup]

Originally Posted by r-j

As a rational person, I view claims of psychic powers, and God, the same as somebody claiming they can fly. Show me.

As Randi would say,
"I will pay you a million dollars if you can."

True, but there are some people who claim the challenge is impossible to win, by definition. There's a line of reasoning that goes: If somebody actually does something paranormal, Randi will declare that it's real, and therefore "normal," and won't award the prize.

They miss the fact, of course, that the decision about what's paranormal is made before the test and the contract declares the prize would be rewarded regardless.

But that's what the prize would look like if it were impossible to win by definition. In actuality, it's just impossible.

[ehcks]

Originally Posted by Pup

But that's what the prize would look like if it were impossible to win by definition. In actuality, it's just impossible.

Yep. The challenge isn't rigged against anyone; reality is.

[scchip]

Quoth Shakespeare "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." (Hamlet Act III, Scene II)

If you've got nothing to hide and can do amazing feats in your sleep, why suddenly be so indignant about flexing your mental muscles anywhere, anytime? Randi's not demanding anything a court of law wouldn't for a legitimate case, i.e. objective empirical evidence. If it wouldn't be admissible in court, then it won't pass Randi's justified scrutiny.

If you throw a fit and go all sour grapes, then you kind of look pretty foolhardy, don't you? It's like "Wait, what's wrong? I don't understand." "It's the room. It's the people. It's the time. It's the wallpaper. It's the test!" Like my dad always says, "It's a poor carpenter who blames his tools." Either you've got the skill or you don't. If you falter a little, okay, nerves. If you suddenly can't do it at all, or experience a severe success rate drop, then it seems mighty suspicious.

Me? If I could do something amazing and...well, essentially break Physics, y'know what? I wouldn't do it for the money. Slight tangent: I'm really not motivated by money. If I need income I'll get a regular job. I'll never pimp my pastimes! My hobbies, the things that bring me the most joy in life, the things I will make time for even with a cutthroat schedule are priceless to me and will always remain so. No matter how dire the circumstances. What can I say? Besides that it's just a tenet of mine?

Anyway, if I passed the entry exam and got up there and did [amazing miracle act] and Randi was all ready with the check, I'd look him straight in the eyes and say "Sir, I don't want the money. I came here today because I could, and I did [what I did] because I could and I wanted to. As a challenge to myself. And I succeeded. And you can give every cent of that million to whatever charity or cause you like. Or split it up however you like. I don't care. I don't want it, I don't need it. But thank you very much for the opportunity."

...

So basically what Weak Kitten said way back when. Except slightly more dramatic. XD And agreeing with Brian-M about it being a pretty good con lure.

[deaman]

Originally Posted by scchip

Quoth Shakespeare "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." (Hamlet Act III, Scene II)

If you've got nothing to hide and can do amazing feats in your sleep, why suddenly be so indignant about flexing your mental muscles anywhere, anytime? Randi's not demanding anything a court of law wouldn't for a legitimate case, i.e. objective empirical evidence. If it wouldn't be admissible in court, then it won't pass Randi's justified scrutiny.

If you throw a fit and go all sour grapes, then you kind of look pretty foolhardy, don't you? It's like "Wait, what's wrong? I don't understand." "It's the room. It's the people. It's the time. It's the wallpaper. It's the test!" Like my dad always says, "It's a poor carpenter who blames his tools." Either you've got the skill or you don't. If you falter a little, okay, nerves. If you suddenly can't do it at all, or experience a severe success rate drop, then it seems mighty suspicious.

Me? If I could do something amazing and...well, essentially break Physics, y'know what? I wouldn't do it for the money. Slight tangent: I'm really not motivated by money. If I need income I'll get a regular job. I'll never pimp my pastimes! My hobbies, the things that bring me the most joy in life, the things I will make time for even with a cutthroat schedule are priceless to me and will always remain so. No matter how dire the circumstances. What can I say? Besides that it's just a tenet of mine?

Anyway, if I passed the entry exam and got up there and did [amazing miracle act] and Randi was all ready with the check, I'd look him straight in the eyes and say "Sir, I don't want the money. I came here today because I could, and I did [what I did] because I could and I wanted to. As a challenge to myself. And I succeeded. And you can give every cent of that million to whatever charity or cause you like. Or split it up however you like. I don't care. I don't want it, I don't need it. But thank you very much for the opportunity."

...

So basically what Weak Kitten said way back when. Except slightly more dramatic. XD And agreeing with Brian-M about it being a pretty good con lure.

Yes, very dramatic and noble sounding.

If I could provide irrefutable, paranormal evidence, I would, and I'd accept the check thankfully. (Sorry. All I have is honesty.)

[r-j]

Originally Posted by deaman

If I could provide irrefutable, paranormal evidence, I would, and I'd accept the check thankfully. (Sorry. All I have is honesty.)

If anyone can provide irrefutable evidence, it's science. By definition paranormal is something there is no evidence for. Even if it was something new to science, so it seemed paranormal, after evidence it would become just another scientific fact.

Like how salmon returning to the same place they were born seemed hard to believe. Once it was discovered how they did it, it was just another fact.

[bruto]

Originally Posted by deaman

Yes, very dramatic and noble sounding.

If I could provide irrefutable, paranormal evidence, I would, and I'd accept the check thankfully. (Sorry. All I have is honesty.)

Well, then, you're screwed.

[deaman]

Originally Posted by bruto

Well, then, you're screwed.

LOL!!!

[Reno]

Originally Posted by Ladewig

If Randi "loses" he pays one million dollars.
If the applicant loses he does not pay anything.

If someone is offering million-to-zero odds, it is more like ... I don't know ... a contract? A promise of a gift? A contest with a prize? A challenge with a reward?

Tha applicant stands to lose credibility and future earnings.

[rjh01]

Originally Posted by Reno

Tha applicant stands to lose credibility and future earnings.

I do not see why people who earn money by tricking people into thinking they have paranormal powers will apply. They know they cannot win and hey have so much to lose.

[r-j]

Yes! And I wonder how much good it has done. Certainly any time I hear some crazy "special" power as real, I tell them to take the challenge.

Nobody ever has.

[Ladewig]

Originally Posted by Reno

Tha applicant stands to lose credibility and future earnings.

Lose credibility?!

Losing the JREF Challenge will not hurt the credibility of psychics, ADCers, channellers, and dowsers. Peter Popoff was caught using a hidden earpiece and today he is still making money.

[r-j]

Are you kidding?

[Pixel42]

Originally Posted by rjh01

I do not see why people who earn money by tricking people into thinking they have paranormal powers will apply. They know they cannot win and hey have so much to lose.

I thought that was the whole point. If they were genuine they'd have no reason not to apply. Their reluctance to take a fair test under conditions which preclude cheating is evidence that they're not genuine.

[r-j]

That's actually not true. Lack of evidence is not evidence. Somebody could come up with a challenge over a known scientific fact, then claim since nobody passed their challenge, the science isn't true. It doesn't work like that.

[rjh01]

Originally Posted by Pixel42

I thought that was the whole point. If they were genuine they'd have no reason not to apply. Their reluctance to take a fair test under conditions which preclude cheating is evidence that they're not genuine.

To the likes of you and me it is. However they tell their supporters that the challenge is rigged.

[JollyRoger]

Assuming these woohoo super powers even existed beyond a delusion, I would be a bit reluctant to adverse it for fear of all those people out their with dirty little secrets, that are willing to do anything to keep themselves from being exposed for who they really are. At the same time having these abilities might give you that much more information about your environment and the people in it.

I could imagine seeing people for who they present themselves as and seeing them for who they are inside and how they might conflict. How confusing it would be. I cant even imagine how people would treat some one who had these abilities proven on a scientific level. You might become nothing more then a scientific fascination to be prodded and poked and exploited. Then when there done, they would toss you aside like someone who is mentally ill to be forgotten until the next moron with wild unrealistic ideas on how they can turn an easy buck comes along only to find out that its a lost cause due to the previous experiments conducted and how much damage they caused the individual.

but like I said originally "Assuming these woohoo super powers even existed beyond a delusion"

[r-j]

I've seen poker players who are such experts at reading the most subtle of body cues, that they actually are mind reading, in the sense that can tell what emotion somebody is experiencing. They also have a keen memory and can remember hours of previous observations of multiple people.

They are also doing this with people who are deliberately trying to not show anything, or show fake signals. Watching somebody do this, for hours on end, makes you realize the level of mental ability that an aware person can have. Like mentalists, it actually seems like "magic", or supernatural abilities. While we know it's not, it probably would be impossible to devise a test or challenge to prove or disprove such abilities.

However, these same people often prove it all the time, by ending up in the top of their game, and making millions.

Why would anyone with a real psychic ability bother with both exposure, and a mere one time million dollar pay out?

As well as all the annoying back and forth working out some sort of way to test things.

[r-j]

Also, as we well know, the mind reading of a poker player doesn't always work, especially when the opponent is doing the same thing.

[Ladewig]

Originally Posted by r-j

Are you kidding?

If you are asking me, I am not kidding.

Uri Geller was exposed on Johnny Carson in 1973 and was actually photographed cheating by Popular Photography magazine. Today he still is able to get people to purchase his "psychic" abilities.

...............
ETA: http://www.paranormal-encyclopedia.c...ever-syndrome/

Quote:

In another public experiment, debunker James Randi organised an Australian tour by fake psychic "Carlos". When Randi revealed the hoax, many members of the public interviewed by television crews continued to assert that his powers must have been real.

M. Lamar Keene argued that the True Believer Syndrome is what keeps fake psychics in business, i.e. the willingness of people to believe in something even after it has been unequivocally disproven.

[JollyRoger]

Why settle for a mere million when you can you can use it to play Wall Street,but on the other hand nothing is free what price (material or otherwise) would you pay for these abilities and would it be worth it

[Ladewig]

Originally Posted by JollyRoger

Why settle for a mere million when you can you can use it to play Wall Street,but on the other hand nothing is free what price (material or otherwise) would you pay for these abilities and would it be worth it

I'd be willing to be bitten by a radioactive spider.

Joking aside. I do not understand what you are asking.