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Old 14th February 2013, 12:20 PM   #441
Prometheus
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Originally Posted by Rrose Selavy View Post
Maybe you should lock them in a cabinet instead.
You think I can catch them?
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Old 14th February 2013, 12:29 PM   #442
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Re: Windows 8 another Vista?

Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Not true, virtually all modern Motherboards initiate a safe shutdown via the ACPI standards whenever you press the power button. So it's just the same thing whether you click the turn off icon or press the power button.
My motherboard must be misconfigured or something then.
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Old 14th February 2013, 12:32 PM   #443
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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
You think I can catch them?
Not if they're running the new Windows OS, each new kid has different programming I hear.

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Old 14th February 2013, 01:55 PM   #444
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Originally Posted by KoihimeNakamura View Post
My motherboard must be misconfigured or something then.
My new laptop goes into sleep mode if I press the power switch, but it doesn't shut down.

If I wanted to force a power-down, I would have to press the button and hold it in for a few seconds. Which I would not do unless I had a completely frozen screen and keyboard.
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Old 14th February 2013, 02:52 PM   #445
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Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes View Post
My new laptop goes into sleep mode if I press the power switch, but it doesn't shut down.

If I wanted to force a power-down, I would have to press the button and hold it in for a few seconds. Which I would not do unless I had a completely frozen screen and keyboard.
You should be able to change that setting in Windows under the Power Options, if you wish to do so.
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Old 14th February 2013, 03:16 PM   #446
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Originally Posted by ohms View Post
You should be able to change that setting in Windows under the Power Options, if you wish to do so.
Sure enough. Interesting to know.

Now... is there a way to completely disable the "charms bar"? I long to get rid of it. Just now, I kept setting it off when I was adjusting a map overlay in photoshop, and it made what I was doing twice as difficult. Finally I had to reduce the work area so the cursor wasn't brushing the right side of the screen. But I needed the full screen, and why should I have to put up with that kind of garbage?

When Windows 8 was first released, it apparently was possible to disable the "charms bar" with a registry hack, which has been posted on the web. But the registry hack no longer seems to work.

Here is what MS has to say about it:

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/w...c-0a97db56adde

Why is this being forced on people who don't want it? What is the benefit for MS? Very frustrating.
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Old 14th February 2013, 04:27 PM   #447
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
Some people don't have or can't use right mouse buttons.

How substantial do you suppose this group is? Although I'm old enough to remember the one button mouse, by this time in the evolution of pointing devices I suspect that very few people lack either a right button or a functionality equivalent to one.

Quote:
Right-clicking is often reserved for auxiliary functionality. A feature like the Quick Access menu deserves better than that.


Some (but not all) are in the All Apps screen. A bunch of them you can only find with the Settings Search screen, if you stick with the MUI.

There might be more places to access some of those options from the Desktop.

The point, though, is that they're certainly not all on the Start Screen, at least not by default.

Somehow this reminds me of Mrs. qg, who expects everything in the refrigerator to be in the front. Once it's any more than about eight inches toward the back it doesn't exist any more.
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Old 14th February 2013, 04:38 PM   #448
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Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes View Post
Sure enough. Interesting to know.

Now... is there a way to completely disable the "charms bar"? I long to get rid of it. Just now, I kept setting it off when I was adjusting a map overlay in photoshop, and it made what I was doing twice as difficult. Finally I had to reduce the work area so the cursor wasn't brushing the right side of the screen. But I needed the full screen, and why should I have to put up with that kind of garbage?

When Windows 8 was first released, it apparently was possible to disable the "charms bar" with a registry hack, which has been posted on the web. But the registry hack no longer seems to work.

Here is what MS has to say about it:

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/w...c-0a97db56adde

Why is this being forced on people who don't want it? What is the benefit for MS? Very frustrating.
Are you using a mouse or a trackpad?

With me, and I believe this is standard, the mouse only triggers the charms bar when I point right down in the bottom right corner, which is taskbar.

If you're using a trackpad then it's probably the trackpad software that's interpreting a finger move from the right of the pad as a "swipe" and thus a request for the charm's bar. You should be able to turn this off in the trackpad software.
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Old 14th February 2013, 04:43 PM   #449
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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
Well, if your 2 year old DOESN'T push every button, pull every cable and pour liquid into every recess s/he sees then you're a lot luckier than I am. I have a 2 and a 3 year old who have destroyed 3 DVD players, a laptop, a game console and a radio just in the past 5 months. My PC is locked in a cabinet.
A 2 yr old and a 7yr old, and we've got multiple laptops. desktops, tablets, game consoles, radios, stereos - none have ever been damaged by them, though the 2 yr old, when he was one, went through a phase of liking to press the green button on the Xbox while I was playing skyrim

A few stern words whenever he did it and he learned soon enough.
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Old 14th February 2013, 04:49 PM   #450
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Are you using a mouse or a trackpad?

With me, and I believe this is standard, the mouse only triggers the charms bar when I point right down in the bottom right corner, which is taskbar.

If you're using a trackpad then it's probably the trackpad software that's interpreting a finger move from the right of the pad as a "swipe" and thus a request for the charm's bar. You should be able to turn this off in the trackpad software.

On my HP laptop the Synaptics touchpad driver has a setting for "Enable edge swipes" which turns this behavior on and off.

With my mouse (Logitech Trackman), I cue the Charms in either the lower or the upper right hand corners.
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Old 14th February 2013, 04:50 PM   #451
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
On my HP laptop the Synaptics touchpad driver has a setting for "Enable edge swipes" which turns this behavior on and off.

With my mouse (Logitech Trackman), I cue the Charms in either the lower or the upper right hand corners.
you are correct, I forgot about upper right.
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Old 14th February 2013, 05:00 PM   #452
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Are you using a mouse or a trackpad?

With me, and I believe this is standard, the mouse only triggers the charms bar when I point right down in the bottom right corner, which is taskbar.

If you're using a trackpad then it's probably the trackpad software that's interpreting a finger move from the right of the pad as a "swipe" and thus a request for the charm's bar. You should be able to turn this off in the trackpad software.
Ha! You are right. I'm learning all kinds of things today.

I have an HP like Quadraginta, and I thought I had examined the menu, but I looked more carefully and disabled the "edge swipes."

Thank you. Now I'm all set.
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Old 14th February 2013, 05:05 PM   #453
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
A 2 yr old and a 7yr old, and we've got multiple laptops. desktops, tablets, game consoles, radios, stereos - none have ever been damaged by them, though the 2 yr old, when he was one, went through a phase of liking to press the green button on the Xbox while I was playing skyrim

A few stern words whenever he did it and he learned soon enough.

My oldest was born a week after the IBM PC was released. By the time he was three he was using my LE Model M. His brother was born that year.

By the time he was three I had to write a batch file they could use to start up the computer in extended or expanded memory mode when I wasn't around, depending on what game they wanted to play.

I never had to worry about them abusing the equipment. They were probably more careful with it than I was.

(They both got a leg up in creative profanity when they watched me struggle with DIP switch settings. )
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Old 14th February 2013, 08:25 PM   #454
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
How substantial do you suppose this group is? Although I'm old enough to remember the one button mouse, by this time in the evolution of pointing devices I suspect that very few people lack either a right button or a functionality equivalent to one.
First of all, it doesn't matter. Even if only .001% of users can't use a right mouse button, that's still going to be a lot of users left out of any features that rely on it.

A good OS design would not rely on there being a right-click for core features.


But, I'm sure it's a higher percentage than that:

Take all the folks who lack the dexterity or digits to push a right mouse button, especially in the older population.

Take all the disabled who use computers without mice, and have to trigger a "mouse click" another way. They might not have two ways to do it.

Take all the mice where one button broke, can't be replaced right away, and things need to get done.

Anyone who uses their fingers or a stylus to move the mouse can "point" to click. But, distinguishing a "right click" some other way, such as a "long point" is more difficult.

The Mac users not accostumed to using right mouse buttons. Might not normally occur to them to try clicking that for anything.

Etc.

Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Somehow this reminds me of Mrs. qg, who expects everything in the refrigerator to be in the front. Once it's any more than about eight inches toward the back it doesn't exist any more.
It's not like it's impossible to do it better....
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Old 14th February 2013, 09:49 PM   #455
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
A 2 yr old and a 7yr old, and we've got multiple laptops. desktops, tablets, game consoles, radios, stereos - none have ever been damaged by them, though the 2 yr old, when he was one, went through a phase of liking to press the green button on the Xbox while I was playing skyrim

A few stern words whenever he did it and he learned soon enough.
Wanna trade? Mine's cute but he thinks "stern words" are for his own entertainment. I haven't tried waterboarding yet, but pretty much any punishment I've come up with he just takes in stride, then he goes and beats up his older brother (they're the same size--The 2 yr. old is in the 99th growth percentile).
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Old 15th February 2013, 06:12 AM   #456
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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
Wanna trade? Mine's cute but he thinks "stern words" are for his own entertainment.
It may be the accompanying glare from the depths of Oblivion that does the trick
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Old 15th February 2013, 11:16 AM   #457
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Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes View Post
Sure enough. Interesting to know.

Now... is there a way to completely disable the "charms bar"? I long to get rid of it. Just now, I kept setting it off when I was adjusting a map overlay in photoshop, and it made what I was doing twice as difficult. Finally I had to reduce the work area so the cursor wasn't brushing the right side of the screen. But I needed the full screen, and why should I have to put up with that kind of garbage?

...snip...
You must have some other program running as the charm bar is not activated by hitting the right-hand side of the screen. Yeah I should read the latest posts....
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Old 15th February 2013, 12:41 PM   #458
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You must have some other program running as the charm bar is not activated by hitting the right-hand side of the screen. Yeah I should read the latest posts....
Between the registry hack I found on the web and the advice from Ice rat, I have it completely disabled. I have to really try if I want to get into the mobile UI. I'm happy.
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Old 16th February 2013, 05:56 AM   #459
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Why would you do that? If on a laptop, close the screen. On a desktop, press the power button. Both are far quicker than the start/shutdown method you prefer.
It wouldn't be for me. My tower is under my desk and orientated so that the button is to the side. That means that to use the button I have to move my chair, bend down to an awkward angle, reach round at an awkward angle, press button, straighten up again. I only use the power button if I've had a serious crash that can't be got out of any other way.

As far as right-clicking for features goes, I'm a big fan of right-click menus. However, is it not the case that in Windows 8 the right-click menu appears at the bottom of the screen, rather than where your pointer is? That seems far less convenient. And it looks to have large symbols for the options on the menu, rather than small amounts of text, which can't work as well for software which adds to the right-click menu like, for example, WinRAR.
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Old 16th February 2013, 06:10 AM   #460
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Originally Posted by Charlie Wilkes View Post
Here is what MS has to say about it:

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/w...c-0a97db56adde
Quote:
Microsoft has designed it for making things faster and easier. The charms bar help you do the things you do most often, like search, share links and photos, connect devices, and change settings without any difficulties.
Hmm, are they sure they're talking about me? I don't do any of those things often.
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Old 16th February 2013, 06:10 AM   #461
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
It wouldn't be for me. My tower is under my desk and orientated so that the button is to the side. That means that to use the button I have to move my chair, bend down to an awkward angle, reach round at an awkward angle, press button, straighten up again. I only use the power button if I've had a serious crash that can't be got out of any other way.
In my experience, most modern keyboards also come with sleep, wake and power off buttons which do the same job.
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Old 16th February 2013, 06:13 AM   #462
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Originally Posted by ohms View Post
In my experience, most modern keyboards also come with sleep, wake and power off buttons which do the same job.
My keyboard doesn't even have a Windows key.
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Old 16th February 2013, 06:51 AM   #463
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Well taking about sudden changes , I earlier in leaning forward, must have accidentally touched the keys that rotate the screen view 90 degrees.(wireless keyboard is on my lap) Happened only once before, when I didn't know how I'd activated it or the jeys to reset and spent several frantic minutes trying to guide the mouse so I could get to the desktop and display settings to reset. Luckily this monitor I could turn more easily.
Ok I now know the keys cntr-Alt arrows to reset quickly but I bet that throws a few people when it suddenly happens.
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Old 16th February 2013, 08:28 AM   #464
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Originally Posted by ohms View Post
In my experience, most modern keyboards also come with sleep, wake and power off buttons which do the same job.
I HATE power off buttons on keyboards!!

Hate, hate, hate!!!!!! With a passion!!



My hatred of power buttons being on keyboards run MUCH DEEPER than Windows 8!


Much, much deeper!


I just don't like power buttons on keyboards, very much, at all!!

Worst idea, ever!
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Old 16th February 2013, 08:39 AM   #465
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
However, is it not the case that in Windows 8 the right-click menu appears at the bottom of the screen, rather than where your pointer is?
In touch mode it appears as a menu from the bottom. In desktop mode it appears where the pointer is, just like before. WinRAR etc work exactly the same.

I'm curious, where did you get this (mis)information from?
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Old 16th February 2013, 09:36 AM   #466
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
I HATE power off buttons on keyboards!!

Hate, hate, hate!!!!!! With a passion!!



My hatred of power buttons being on keyboards run MUCH DEEPER than Windows 8!


Much, much deeper!


I just don't like power buttons on keyboards, very much, at all!!

Worst idea, ever!
I said "most" not "all", so just buy a keyboard without them then.
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Old 16th February 2013, 11:02 AM   #467
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Hmm, are they sure they're talking about me? I don't do any of those things often.
They're not talking about you or me. They're reaching out to the vast market of people who don't need a desktop OS and prefer the simplified UI of a cell phone.

I approached Windows 8 with a hostile attitude, because I felt that MS introduced a lot of lateral changes with Vista/7 that made my life complicated without any corresponding benefit. Early reviews of Windows 8 led me to think it was yet another confusing mess. That is because reviewers have focused on the phone UI, which is a disaster. But it can be pushed aside, and beneath it is a well-designed desktop UI that is similar to Windows 7, with a number of subtle improvements.
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Old 16th February 2013, 03:17 PM   #468
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Hmm, are they sure they're talking about me? I don't do any of those things often.
Well, I do search and change settings more often than the average person.

But, both were better in Win7: Win8 has some settings in one place, others in the Control Panel, and still more must be "found" as "settings" even though they are executable applications.
I can also add an Administrator Tools tab, but this is how it works by default.

And, the Search is broken. I could find apps, settings, and files all at once in Win7. But, in Win8, they divided it out. And what's worse is that they will claim "no results" were found, if you happen to be searching under the wrong category.

The Devices icon barely needs to be there, because most devices auto-connected to the machine pretty well, on their own.

As for sharing links and photos: Why would I do that from the Charms bar?

And, why is it called "Charms", anyway?!

Originally Posted by ohms View Post
I said "most" not "all", so just buy a keyboard without them then.
Oh. That's a good idea. Why did I think of that before?!
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Old 16th February 2013, 03:30 PM   #469
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
As for sharing links and photos: Why would I do that from the Charms bar?
Probably intended for the non-savvy and the lazy. And to add another system that could potentially be compromised by the malfeasant.

Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
And, why is it called "Charms", anyway?!
It's magically suspicious.
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Old 16th February 2013, 05:46 PM   #470
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
It may be the accompanying glare from the depths of Oblivion that does the trick
I've been saving that for my office's IT support staff when they tell me I have no choice but to upgrade to Win8.
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Old 16th February 2013, 06:59 PM   #471
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Originally Posted by Wowbagger View Post
I HATE power off buttons on keyboards!!

Hate, hate, hate!!!!!! With a passion!!



My hatred of power buttons being on keyboards run MUCH DEEPER than Windows 8!


Much, much deeper!


I just don't like power buttons on keyboards, very much, at all!!

Worst idea, ever!
You're obviously holding back.
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Old 16th February 2013, 08:29 PM   #472
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
You're obviously holding back.
My therapist warned me that it is not healthy to produce multiple pages of vitriolic diatribe whenever the subject is unwittingly broached on Internet discussions.
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Old 17th February 2013, 12:43 AM   #473
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Re: Windows 8 another Vista?

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Hmm, are they sure they're talking about me? I don't do any of those things often.
Yes and when I do need to do those things I manage quite easily without a charms bar. All it does is get in the way.
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Old 17th February 2013, 12:43 PM   #474
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So the right-click thing being down the bottom is, again, something on the UI that is useless for the desktop. Which, again, leads me to question why it's on there.
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Old 17th February 2013, 01:49 PM   #475
Charlie Wilkes
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
So the right-click thing being down the bottom is, again, something on the UI that is useless for the desktop. Which, again, leads me to question why it's on there.
It's there because MS put a poorly designed skin on Windows 8, but you don't have to use it, and the desktop UI is similar to Windows 7. A right click brings up a context menu next to the cursor, just like any version of Windows.

Windows 8 came out just when I was at the point where I really needed to upgrade, and I'm glad I didn't let the reviews scare me away.
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Old 17th February 2013, 05:23 PM   #476
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
So the right-click thing being down the bottom is, again, something on the UI that is useless for the desktop. Which, again, leads me to question why it's on there.
It kinda-sorta makes sense on a touch screen, at least.

But, it does suck much for desktop machines. No reason they couldn't put it up on the side against what you clicked.
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Old 18th February 2013, 02:40 AM   #477
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
So the right-click thing being down the bottom is, again, something on the UI that is useless for the desktop. Which, again, leads me to question why it's on there.
It's part of the touch interface, not the desktop interface. It's there so that machines with touchscreens, particular tablet hybrids, can all use the same OS.

And if you happen to buy a touch monitor (I plan to), it will work with your existing set up out of the box
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Old 18th February 2013, 03:31 AM   #478
Squeegee Beckenheim
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
It's part of the touch interface, not the desktop interface. It's there so that machines with touchscreens, particular tablet hybrids, can all use the same OS.
It's not the same OS, though, is it? It's two OSs with separate interfaces, and separate programs which can only run on one or the other.

And what's the advantage in having the same OS on a tablet and a desktop machine? Isn't it better to have a desktop OS that's optimised for desktop machines for desktop machines and a tablet OS that's optimised for tablets for tablets?

Sure, you'll want them to be compatible, but what's the advantage in having them exactly the same?
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Old 18th February 2013, 04:08 AM   #479
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
It's not the same OS, though, is it? It's two OSs with separate interfaces, and separate programs which can only run on one or the other.
No, it's the same OS with 2 different interfaces

Quote:
And what's the advantage in having the same OS on a tablet and a desktop machine? Isn't it better to have a desktop OS that's optimised for desktop machines for desktop machines and a tablet OS that's optimised for tablets for tablets?
And what about laptops that can convert to tablets, and tablets (pretty much all of them) that can be used with keyboards?

And what about desktops with touch interfaces?

Quote:
Sure, you'll want them to be compatible, but what's the advantage in having them exactly the same?
Sit in office typing a document in Word. Pick up hybrid. Sit on the train browsing the web. Get to cafe. Continue typing document in Word. Go home. Connect to big monitor, play game with full-size keyboard and mouse. Disconnect monitor. Go sit on sofa. Check TV guide, control TV. Getting late. Go lie in bed, continue to watch show on tablet with headphones, not disturbing wife. Set alarm for morning.

etc etc etc

all on the one device

I really don't get how people don't get how obvious this is.
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Old 18th February 2013, 05:12 AM   #480
Squeegee Beckenheim
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
No, it's the same OS with 2 different interfaces
2 different interfaces which access two different sets of programs, neither of which can be accessed by the other.

Quote:
And what about laptops that can convert to tablets, and tablets (pretty much all of them) that can be used with keyboards?
What about them? How is that relevent to a desktop which is just a desktop?

Quote:
And what about desktops with touch interfaces?[/



Sit in office typing a document in Word. Pick up hybrid. Sit on the train browsing the web. Get to cafe. Continue typing document in Word. Go home. Connect to big monitor, play game with full-size keyboard and mouse. Disconnect monitor. Go sit on sofa. Check TV guide, control TV. Getting late. Go lie in bed, continue to watch show on tablet with headphones, not disturbing wife. Set alarm for morning.

etc etc etc

all on the one device

I really don't get how people don't get how obvious this is.
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