Do the Irish object to the use of the term "hooligan" ?

El Greco · 13th March 2005, 09:38 AM

A Greek football reporter who spends much time in the UK and knows a lot about football there said there are some objections among Irish people about the use of the term. Is there any grain of truth in that ?

shanek · 13th March 2005, 09:55 AM

If they do, they're idiots. The term "hooligan" was originally used to refer to a member of Patrick Hooley's gang in the late 1800s in London. "Hooley's gang" was shortened to "hooligan." Even if Hooley himself were Irish, I don't see how this could possibly be a slur.

Jon_in_london · 13th March 2005, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shanek
If they do, they're idiots. The term "hooligan" was originally used to refer to a member of Patrick Hooley's gang in the late 1800s in London. "Hooley's gang" was shortened to "hooligan." Even if Hooley himself were Irish, I don't see how this could possibly be a slur.

Hooligan mean thug. Shanek...

Thats like saying "Do black people object to being called n!qqers?"

"If they do, they're idiots. The term "n!qqers" was originally from the spanish for black- negre."

Who cares where its come from? Its what it means today that counts.

TragicMonkey · 13th March 2005, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
Hooligan mean thug. Shanek...

Thats like saying "Do black people object to being called n!qqers?"

"If they do, they're idiots. The term "n!qqers" was originally from the spanish for black- negre."

Who cares where its come from? Its what it means today that counts.

But doesn't "hooligan" refer to someone involved in certain sorts of antisocial activities, rather than a race? Is anyone calling elderly Irish women "hooligans"?

I haven't heard the word without "soccer" in front of it, outside of books.

Ed · 13th March 2005, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
But doesn't "hooligan" refer to someone involved in certain sorts of antisocial activities, rather than a race? Is anyone calling elderly Irish women "hooligans"?

I haven't heard the word without "soccer" in front of it, outside of books.

Wasn't that a favorite charge of the Soviets, "hooliganism"? Always struck me as sorta funny.

Gwyn ap Nudd · 13th March 2005, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
But doesn't "hooligan" refer to someone involved in certain sorts of antisocial activities, rather than a race? Is anyone calling elderly Irish women "hooligans"?

I haven't heard the word without "soccer" in front of it, outside of books.

Two possibile terms that might better illustrate Jon's point are "mobster" or "gangsta." In both of these words, as in "hooligan" the original meaning a member of a violent or potentially violent gang or mob, where most if not all of the members are of a particular disrespected background.

In all three cases, the meaning of the word "bled" to include others. Early in the process it expanded in two directions: to include more innocent members of the ethnic background, and to members of other mobs and gangs. Although the first expaned definition was relatively short-lived, it was still enough to provoke a strong reaction even now in the affected ethic groups.

shanek · 13th March 2005, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
Hooligan mean thug. Shanek...

Thats like saying "Do black people object to being called n!qqers?"

"If they do, they're idiots. The term "n!qqers" was originally from the spanish for black- negre."

Who cares where its come from? Its what it means today that counts.

Engage your brain.

"Hooligan" still refers to thugs. If it referred to the Irish in general, you might have some kind of point.

TragicMonkey · 13th March 2005, 11:40 AM

I guess that the offensiveness of any given term is going to come from your cultural surroundings.

There just isn't any anti-Irish sentiment where I am to make attempted slurs anything other than funny.

Ian Osborne · 13th March 2005, 11:54 AM

From the web, Word Detective...

Quote:

As to the "Irish thug" theory of "hooligan" you heard, the answer would have to be "probably not," but no one knows for sure exactly where "hooligan" came from. The word first appeared in England in the summer of 1898 in newspaper articles about a gang of young street toughs who called themselves "the Hooligans," although apparently none of them was actually named Hooligan. Some authorities at the time maintained that "hooligan" was a mispronunciation of "Hooley's gang," but no one was ever able to trace a specific "Hooley," so that theory remains unverified. Another possible source of the name is a music hall song of the period featuring a rowdy Irish family called the Hooligans. Hooligan had also been used since at least the 1870s as a "funny name" by several authors, including Mark Twain.

No idea how respected the source is or how accurate the information, though.

Shane Costello · 13th March 2005, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted El Greco:
A Greek football reporter who spends much time in the UK and knows a lot about football there said there are some objections among Irish people about the use of the term. Is there any grain of truth in that ?

No. Silim gur bhfuil an tuiriscoir sin ag seafoid.

Cleon · 13th March 2005, 07:41 PM

Odd, I'd never associated "hooligan" with the Irish. Mainly, I've heard it used in two ways:

1. English (not Irish) soccer hooligans.

2. A certain sub-group of my motorcycle club who have very low respect for speed limit laws, who have been called "hooligans" by some of the slower riders. They've since taken on the name "Hooligans" as a sort of sub-club within the larger group.

shanek · 13th March 2005, 07:55 PM

It must be a colloquial thing. Around here, it's used to refer to either young (late teens) criminals, usually in gangs, or very young (up to 10 years old) kids who are the kind of merry mischief-makers most kids are at that age.

Shane Costello · 14th March 2005, 12:32 AM

Are you sure that it's not the other way around, and that hooligans object to being connected with Ireland and the Irish?

richardm · 14th March 2005, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shanek
It must be a colloquial thing. Around here, it's used to refer to either young (late teens) criminals, usually in gangs, or very young (up to 10 years old) kids who are the kind of merry mischief-makers most kids are at that age.

Same here. I was always told that it referred to a violent Irish family called "Houlihan". But it's never been restricted to being just Irish in my lifetime, at least.

... according to the OED there was a popular 19th Century music hall song that featured a rowdy Irish family called the "Hooligan" family. It's not sure whether the word came first and the song characterised it, or vice-versa. Since the OED lists no earlier citation for it, it seems quite possible to me that the song came first, and the popular term afterwards.

As for being offended by it; well, I'm constantly amazed by peoples' ablilty to be offended by things.

Edited to add:

Quote:

The very word "hooligan", which came into circulation via a music hall song, was said to have originated in Southwark - a derivative of "Houlihan", the name of a notoriously troublesome Irish family. A teenager from Southwark named Patrick Hooligan, a part-time bouncer in a pub, had made headlines for the brutal murder of a policeman. Overnight, the younger generation of the borough came under the scrutiny of newspaper scribes, with tales of drinking, vandalism and rowdyism

Hmm

Brian the Snail · 14th March 2005, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by richardm
Same here. I was always told that it referred to a violent Irish family called "Houlihan". But it's never been restricted to being just Irish in my lifetime, at least.

... according to the OED there was a popular 19th Century music hall song that featured a rowdy Irish family called the "Hooligan" family. It's not sure whether the word came first and the song characterised it, or vice-versa. Since the OED lists no earlier citation for it, it seems quite possible to me that the song came first, and the popular term afterwards.

As for being offended by it; well, I'm constantly amazed by peoples' ablilty to be offended by things.

Edited to add:

Hmm

If that is the origin of the word "hooligan" then I'm also baffled about why the Irish would be offended by it. It would be like Norwegians being offended by the word "quisling", or Americans being offended by "lynch".

LW · 14th March 2005, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ian Osborne (quoting another source)

As to the "Irish thug" theory of "hooligan" you heard, the answer would have to be "probably not," but no one knows for sure exactly where "hooligan" came from. The word first appeared in England in the summer of 1898 in newspaper articles about a gang of young street toughs who called themselves "the Hooligans," although apparently none of them was actually named Hooligan.

Around that same time the youth gangs in Paris were called "Apaches". (Now, there is a term that probably wouldn't be considered to be poltically correct nowadays). Both terms started to spread over the Europe when reporters compared the gangs of their own cities to those two famous examples. For example, in the pre-WWI times the press called the members of Finnish gangs of Helsinki using both names in addition to the Finnish "sakilaiset" (that translates directly to "ganger"). The gangers themselves used mostly the Finnish term while adding in a specifier that described the place where they hanged around.

Meadmaker · 18th March 2005, 09:16 AM

It never occurred to me to connect "hooligan" with being Irish, but I occaisionally laugh about just how politically incorrect the term "paddy wagon" would be if the racial slur were directed toward some other ethnic group.

Since there is no longer any anti-Irish sentiment in the US, those of us who recognize that term as a racial slur can afford to chuckle over it.

E.J.Armstrong · 19th March 2005, 07:48 AM

As someone from Northern Ireland I have never come across any Irish person who has expressed any concern whatsoever with the term.

I wonder if Bliar objects to being called a poodle of Bush? Can you object to a fact?

jay gw · 19th March 2005, 10:56 AM

Do the Greeks object to the term "Zorbas" or "Pendos"?

Abdul Alhazred · 20th March 2005, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Meadmaker
It never occurred to me to connect "hooligan" with being Irish, but I occaisionally laugh about just how politically incorrect the term "paddy wagon" would be if the racial slur were directed toward some other ethnic group.

I'm pretty sure "paddy wagon" comes from the police being the "paddies". The ethnic connection is there, but it was just a slang word for "cop".

Mycroft · 20th March 2005, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred
I'm pretty sure "paddy wagon" comes from the police being the "paddies". The ethnic connection is there, but it was just a slang word for "cop".

Yeah, but "Paddy" comes from "Pat" or "Patrick", a common Irish name.

Donks · 20th March 2005, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred
I'm pretty sure "paddy wagon" comes from the police being the "paddies". The ethnic connection is there, but it was just a slang word for "cop".

Trivia I learnt while watching "Modern Marvels":
Police officers originally wore copper six-pointed stars as badges, hence the nickname "copper" and then "cop."

Now back to whatever this thread is about

TragicMonkey · 20th March 2005, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Donks
Trivia I learnt while watching "Modern Marvels":
Police officers originally wore copper six-pointed stars as badges, hence the nickname "copper" and then "cop."

I heard it was, the term "cop" comes from the Latin "to capture".

eta: Which would also explain the espression "cop a feel".

Meadmaker · 20th March 2005, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred
I'm pretty sure "paddy wagon" comes from the police being the "paddies". The ethnic connection is there, but it was just a slang word for "cop".

That could be. I assumed it was the occupants of the "paddy wagon" that were the eponymous element.

I thought it came from, "There's a big donnybrook going on down at the pub in the Irish neighborhood. Take the wagon and round up the paddies."

In other words, I thought it was a wagon used to transport paddies, as opposed to a wagon used by the paddies.

TragicMonkey · 20th March 2005, 08:10 PM

I assumed it came from "padlock", but now I wonder about "padlock".

That's the problem with etymology--you start wondering about all the words. Including "wonder". And "words".

At least the etymology of "etymology" is fairly clear.

richardm · 21st March 2005, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
At least the etymology of "etymology" is fairly clear.

Quote:

Some early etymological scholars came up with derivations that were hard for the public to believe. The term "etymology" was formed from the Latin "etus" ("eaten"), the root "mal" ("bad"), and "logy" ("study of"). It meant "the study of things that are hard to swallow."

... I thought that was from Dave Barry but the only citation I can find is for Mike Kellen. So I'll credit both of them.

Abdul Alhazred · 21st March 2005, 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Meadmaker
That could be. I assumed it was the occupants of the "paddy wagon" that were the eponymous element.

I thought it came from, "There's a big donnybrook going on down at the pub in the Irish neighborhood. Take the wagon and round up the paddies."

In other words, I thought it was a wagon used to transport paddies, as opposed to a wagon used by the paddies.

During a certain period of USA history, around the time big city police forces were being organized, the police was a good job for an Irish immigrant on the way up.

It could a paddy driving and paddies in the back. But the slang for police hung on longer than Americans typically talking about Irishmen being paddies.

"Paddy" was African-American slang for a white person in the 1950s and 1960s, at least in New York City.

Now about the only usage is "paddy wagon". Not officially, of course.

13th March 2005, 09:38 AM	#1
El Greco Summer worshipper Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Παρά θιν'αλός Posts: 14,293	Do the Irish object to the use of the term "hooligan" ? A Greek football reporter who spends much time in the UK and knows a lot about football there said there are some objections among Irish people about the use of the term. Is there any grain of truth in that ?
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13th March 2005, 09:55 AM	#2
shanek by Charles M. Schulz Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 15,990	If they do, they're idiots. The term "hooligan" was originally used to refer to a member of Patrick Hooley's gang in the late 1800s in London. "Hooley's gang" was shortened to "hooligan." Even if Hooley himself were Irish, I don't see how this could possibly be a slur.
	__________________ "James Randi is awesome!" —Ian Bernard, primary host of Free Talk Live "It really does take people like Penn & Teller or James Randi to be able to see through these deceptions, and so those are perhaps the people we should be paying the most attention to." —Harry Browne, 4/10/2004 I know there is a lesson to be learned here somewhere, but I don't know what it is.

13th March 2005, 10:31 AM	#3
Jon_in_london Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 4,994	Quote: Originally posted by shanek If they do, they're idiots. The term "hooligan" was originally used to refer to a member of Patrick Hooley's gang in the late 1800s in London. "Hooley's gang" was shortened to "hooligan." Even if Hooley himself were Irish, I don't see how this could possibly be a slur. Hooligan mean thug. Shanek... Thats like saying "Do black people object to being called n!qqers?" "If they do, they're idiots. The term "n!qqers" was originally from the spanish for black- negre." Who cares where its come from? Its what it means today that counts.
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13th March 2005, 10:52 AM	#4
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,096	Quote: Originally posted by Jon_in_london Hooligan mean thug. Shanek... Thats like saying "Do black people object to being called n!qqers?" "If they do, they're idiots. The term "n!qqers" was originally from the spanish for black- negre." Who cares where its come from? Its what it means today that counts. But doesn't "hooligan" refer to someone involved in certain sorts of antisocial activities, rather than a race? Is anyone calling elderly Irish women "hooligans"? I haven't heard the word without "soccer" in front of it, outside of books.
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

13th March 2005, 11:20 AM	#5
Ed god Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,691	Quote: Originally posted by TragicMonkey But doesn't "hooligan" refer to someone involved in certain sorts of antisocial activities, rather than a race? Is anyone calling elderly Irish women "hooligans"? I haven't heard the word without "soccer" in front of it, outside of books. Wasn't that a favorite charge of the Soviets, "hooliganism"? Always struck me as sorta funny.
Ed god Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,691	__________________ "The history of science is the record of dead religions" Phrases And Philosophies For The Use Of The Young Oscar Wilde (1854-1900) Our Guarentee: One obscure (or not) Python reference per day.

13th March 2005, 11:27 AM	#6
Gwyn ap Nudd Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 381	Quote: Originally posted by TragicMonkey But doesn't "hooligan" refer to someone involved in certain sorts of antisocial activities, rather than a race? Is anyone calling elderly Irish women "hooligans"? I haven't heard the word without "soccer" in front of it, outside of books. Two possibile terms that might better illustrate Jon's point are "mobster" or "gangsta." In both of these words, as in "hooligan" the original meaning a member of a violent or potentially violent gang or mob, where most if not all of the members are of a particular disrespected background. In all three cases, the meaning of the word "bled" to include others. Early in the process it expanded in two directions: to include more innocent members of the ethnic background, and to members of other mobs and gangs. Although the first expaned definition was relatively short-lived, it was still enough to provoke a strong reaction even now in the affected ethic groups.

13th March 2005, 11:33 AM	#7
shanek by Charles M. Schulz Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 15,990	Quote: Originally posted by Jon_in_london Hooligan mean thug. Shanek... Thats like saying "Do black people object to being called n!qqers?" "If they do, they're idiots. The term "n!qqers" was originally from the spanish for black- negre." Who cares where its come from? Its what it means today that counts. Engage your brain. "Hooligan" still refers to thugs. If it referred to the Irish in general, you might have some kind of point.
	__________________ "James Randi is awesome!" —Ian Bernard, primary host of Free Talk Live "It really does take people like Penn & Teller or James Randi to be able to see through these deceptions, and so those are perhaps the people we should be paying the most attention to." —Harry Browne, 4/10/2004 I know there is a lesson to be learned here somewhere, but I don't know what it is.

13th March 2005, 11:40 AM	#8
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,096	I guess that the offensiveness of any given term is going to come from your cultural surroundings. There just isn't any anti-Irish sentiment where I am to make attempted slurs anything other than funny.
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13th March 2005, 11:54 AM	#9
Ian Osborne JREF Kid Tagger Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Wiltshire Posts: 6,383	From the web, Word Detective... Quote: As to the "Irish thug" theory of "hooligan" you heard, the answer would have to be "probably not," but no one knows for sure exactly where "hooligan" came from. The word first appeared in England in the summer of 1898 in newspaper articles about a gang of young street toughs who called themselves "the Hooligans," although apparently none of them was actually named Hooligan. Some authorities at the time maintained that "hooligan" was a mispronunciation of "Hooley's gang," but no one was ever able to trace a specific "Hooley," so that theory remains unverified. Another possible source of the name is a music hall song of the period featuring a rowdy Irish family called the Hooligans. Hooligan had also been used since at least the 1870s as a "funny name" by several authors, including Mark Twain. No idea how respected the source is or how accurate the information, though.
	__________________ "Faith without doubt leads to moral arrogance, the eternal pratfall of the religiously convinced" - Joe Klein, Time magazine "The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." - Carl Sagan

13th March 2005, 12:31 PM	#10
Shane Costello Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,235	Quote: Originally posted El Greco: A Greek football reporter who spends much time in the UK and knows a lot about football there said there are some objections among Irish people about the use of the term. Is there any grain of truth in that ? No. Silim gur bhfuil an tuiriscoir sin ag seafoid.

13th March 2005, 07:41 PM	#11
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,534	Odd, I'd never associated "hooligan" with the Irish. Mainly, I've heard it used in two ways: 1. English (not Irish) soccer hooligans. 2. A certain sub-group of my motorcycle club who have very low respect for speed limit laws, who have been called "hooligans" by some of the slower riders. They've since taken on the name "Hooligans" as a sort of sub-club within the larger group.
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13th March 2005, 07:55 PM	#12
shanek by Charles M. Schulz Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 15,990	It must be a colloquial thing. Around here, it's used to refer to either young (late teens) criminals, usually in gangs, or very young (up to 10 years old) kids who are the kind of merry mischief-makers most kids are at that age.
	__________________ "James Randi is awesome!" —Ian Bernard, primary host of Free Talk Live "It really does take people like Penn & Teller or James Randi to be able to see through these deceptions, and so those are perhaps the people we should be paying the most attention to." —Harry Browne, 4/10/2004 I know there is a lesson to be learned here somewhere, but I don't know what it is.

14th March 2005, 12:32 AM	#13
Shane Costello Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,235	Are you sure that it's not the other way around, and that hooligans object to being connected with Ireland and the Irish?

14th March 2005, 01:33 AM	#14
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	Quote: Originally posted by shanek It must be a colloquial thing. Around here, it's used to refer to either young (late teens) criminals, usually in gangs, or very young (up to 10 years old) kids who are the kind of merry mischief-makers most kids are at that age. Same here. I was always told that it referred to a violent Irish family called "Houlihan". But it's never been restricted to being just Irish in my lifetime, at least. ... according to the OED there was a popular 19th Century music hall song that featured a rowdy Irish family called the "Hooligan" family. It's not sure whether the word came first and the song characterised it, or vice-versa. Since the OED lists no earlier citation for it, it seems quite possible to me that the song came first, and the popular term afterwards. As for being offended by it; well, I'm constantly amazed by peoples' ablilty to be offended by things. Edited to add: Quote: The very word "hooligan", which came into circulation via a music hall song, was said to have originated in Southwark - a derivative of "Houlihan", the name of a notoriously troublesome Irish family. A teenager from Southwark named Patrick Hooligan, a part-time bouncer in a pub, had made headlines for the brutal murder of a policeman. Overnight, the younger generation of the borough came under the scrutiny of newspaper scribes, with tales of drinking, vandalism and rowdyism Hmm
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	__________________ Rimmer: Look at her! Magnificent woman! Very prim, very proper, almost austere. Some people took her for cold, thought she was aloof. Not a bit of it. She just despised fools. Quite tragic, really, because otherwise I think we'd have got on famously.

14th March 2005, 02:44 AM	#15
Brian the Snail Muse Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 963	Quote: Originally posted by richardm Same here. I was always told that it referred to a violent Irish family called "Houlihan". But it's never been restricted to being just Irish in my lifetime, at least. ... according to the OED there was a popular 19th Century music hall song that featured a rowdy Irish family called the "Hooligan" family. It's not sure whether the word came first and the song characterised it, or vice-versa. Since the OED lists no earlier citation for it, it seems quite possible to me that the song came first, and the popular term afterwards. As for being offended by it; well, I'm constantly amazed by peoples' ablilty to be offended by things. Edited to add: Hmm If that is the origin of the word "hooligan" then I'm also baffled about why the Irish would be offended by it. It would be like Norwegians being offended by the word "quisling", or Americans being offended by "lynch".
Brian the Snail Muse Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 963

14th March 2005, 03:08 AM	#16
LW Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: 60°N 25°E Posts: 2,800	Quote: Originally posted by Ian Osborne (quoting another source) As to the "Irish thug" theory of "hooligan" you heard, the answer would have to be "probably not," but no one knows for sure exactly where "hooligan" came from. The word first appeared in England in the summer of 1898 in newspaper articles about a gang of young street toughs who called themselves "the Hooligans," although apparently none of them was actually named Hooligan. Around that same time the youth gangs in Paris were called "Apaches". (Now, there is a term that probably wouldn't be considered to be poltically correct nowadays). Both terms started to spread over the Europe when reporters compared the gangs of their own cities to those two famous examples. For example, in the pre-WWI times the press called the members of Finnish gangs of Helsinki using both names in addition to the Finnish "sakilaiset" (that translates directly to "ganger"). The gangers themselves used mostly the Finnish term while adding in a specifier that described the place where they hanged around.

18th March 2005, 09:16 AM	#17
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Detroit suburbs Posts: 11,454	It never occurred to me to connect "hooligan" with being Irish, but I occaisionally laugh about just how politically incorrect the term "paddy wagon" would be if the racial slur were directed toward some other ethnic group. Since there is no longer any anti-Irish sentiment in the US, those of us who recognize that term as a racial slur can afford to chuckle over it.
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19th March 2005, 07:48 AM	#18
E.J.Armstrong Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 3,825	As someone from Northern Ireland I have never come across any Irish person who has expressed any concern whatsoever with the term. I wonder if Bliar objects to being called a poodle of Bush? Can you object to a fact?
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19th March 2005, 10:56 AM	#19
jay gw Suspended Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,824	Do the Greeks object to the term "Zorbas" or "Pendos"?
jay gw Suspended Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,824

20th March 2005, 01:39 AM	#20
Abdul Alhazred Yes, that one. Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Chicago Posts: 5,476	Quote: Originally posted by Meadmaker It never occurred to me to connect "hooligan" with being Irish, but I occaisionally laugh about just how politically incorrect the term "paddy wagon" would be if the racial slur were directed toward some other ethnic group. I'm pretty sure "paddy wagon" comes from the police being the "paddies". The ethnic connection is there, but it was just a slang word for "cop".
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20th March 2005, 07:51 AM	#21
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 16,105	Quote: Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred I'm pretty sure "paddy wagon" comes from the police being the "paddies". The ethnic connection is there, but it was just a slang word for "cop". Yeah, but "Paddy" comes from "Pat" or "Patrick", a common Irish name.
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20th March 2005, 07:56 AM	#22
Donks vBulletin God Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 3,321	Quote: Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred I'm pretty sure "paddy wagon" comes from the police being the "paddies". The ethnic connection is there, but it was just a slang word for "cop". Trivia I learnt while watching "Modern Marvels": Police officers originally wore copper six-pointed stars as badges, hence the nickname "copper" and then "cop." Now back to whatever this thread is about
Donks vBulletin God Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 3,321

20th March 2005, 10:26 AM	#23
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,096	Quote: Originally posted by Donks Trivia I learnt while watching "Modern Marvels": Police officers originally wore copper six-pointed stars as badges, hence the nickname "copper" and then "cop." I heard it was, the term "cop" comes from the Latin "to capture". eta: Which would also explain the espression "cop a feel".
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20th March 2005, 07:00 PM	#24
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Detroit suburbs Posts: 11,454	Quote: Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred I'm pretty sure "paddy wagon" comes from the police being the "paddies". The ethnic connection is there, but it was just a slang word for "cop". That could be. I assumed it was the occupants of the "paddy wagon" that were the eponymous element. I thought it came from, "There's a big donnybrook going on down at the pub in the Irish neighborhood. Take the wagon and round up the paddies." In other words, I thought it was a wagon used to transport paddies, as opposed to a wagon used by the paddies.
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20th March 2005, 08:10 PM	#25
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,096	I assumed it came from "padlock", but now I wonder about "padlock". That's the problem with etymology--you start wondering about all the words. Including "wonder". And "words". At least the etymology of "etymology" is fairly clear.
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21st March 2005, 02:12 AM	#26
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	Quote: Originally posted by TragicMonkey At least the etymology of "etymology" is fairly clear. Quote: Some early etymological scholars came up with derivations that were hard for the public to believe. The term "etymology" was formed from the Latin "etus" ("eaten"), the root "mal" ("bad"), and "logy" ("study of"). It meant "the study of things that are hard to swallow." ... I thought that was from Dave Barry but the only citation I can find is for Mike Kellen. So I'll credit both of them.
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	__________________ Rimmer: Look at her! Magnificent woman! Very prim, very proper, almost austere. Some people took her for cold, thought she was aloof. Not a bit of it. She just despised fools. Quite tragic, really, because otherwise I think we'd have got on famously.

21st March 2005, 03:00 AM	#27
Abdul Alhazred Yes, that one. Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Chicago Posts: 5,476	Quote: Originally posted by Meadmaker That could be. I assumed it was the occupants of the "paddy wagon" that were the eponymous element. I thought it came from, "There's a big donnybrook going on down at the pub in the Irish neighborhood. Take the wagon and round up the paddies." In other words, I thought it was a wagon used to transport paddies, as opposed to a wagon used by the paddies. During a certain period of USA history, around the time big city police forces were being organized, the police was a good job for an Irish immigrant on the way up. It could a paddy driving and paddies in the back. But the slang for police hung on longer than Americans typically talking about Irishmen being paddies. "Paddy" was African-American slang for a white person in the 1950s and 1960s, at least in New York City. Now about the only usage is "paddy wagon". Not officially, of course.
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