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20th May 2014, 12:32 AM | #7201 |
Mostly harmless
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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20th May 2014, 12:43 AM | #7202 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 4,622
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Comprehension, like honesty, isn't part of "truly effective debate."
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You can't defeat fascism through debate because it's not simply an idea, proposal or theory. It's a fundamentally flawed way of looking at the world. It's a distorting prism, emotionally charged and completely logic-proof. You may as well challenge rabies to a game of Boggle. @ViolettaCrisis |
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20th May 2014, 07:56 AM | #7203 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,613
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xtifr,
- I do want to address those points. I also want to address the issue of time and space coordinates, and I still want to justify dividing by infinity. - I recognize the problem that time and space coordinates bring to my claim of infinity, but I was sort of hoping that no one would consider the issue important enough to bring up... But then, maybe the time/space coordinate issue will help with the "define" issue. As superficially at least, those coordinates could finish preexisting definitions for each of us and ruin my claim of infinity... - Does this help? - I'll be back. |
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"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
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20th May 2014, 08:01 AM | #7204 |
Penultimate Amazing
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"Sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from incompetence. = godless Dave |
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20th May 2014, 08:03 AM | #7205 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,692
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Alas, ambition ≠ capability. How about a cure for cancer and conquering third world poverty while you're at it? I'll bet you were. Seriously, you're hoping that nobody will notice the great gaping holes in your malformed arguments? Where the hell do you think you are? Your claim of infinity has been dead in the water for years. - No. - Why? |
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Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
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20th May 2014, 08:09 AM | #7206 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,649
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One serious sign of a bad case of Woo is people plugging "infinity" into equations as if it is a proper number.
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"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
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20th May 2014, 08:13 AM | #7207 |
Mostly harmless
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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20th May 2014, 08:16 AM | #7208 |
Membership Drive
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Good Morning, Mr. Savage!
By now, it should be evident even to you that you are not going to be able to set up your "gotcha" moment, because your premises are so far removed from reality, Why not go at it form the other end? Why not simply present what you think is the evidence that the "soul" exists, and is "immortal"? |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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20th May 2014, 08:18 AM | #7209 |
Non credunt, semper verificare
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sigil, the city of doors
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Sigh. Do you udnerstand how that read ? That read like this :
"yes I was told many time this is mathematically incorrect but whatever you say guys, I do not care, I will do it anyway". You cannot divide by infinity. You cannot use infinity as youa re using in arithmetic probabilistic operation. It is not a "under some circumstance" kind of "may not". it is a cannot. As in , you cannot in any circumstance whatsoever do that in probability. Do YOU understand the concept of impossibility ? It is not allowed in normal arithmetic to do that kind of manipulation with infinity. If you can't even agree to use basic arithmetic then any attempt at convincing people which DO agree to sue basic arithmetic is doomed. Jabba, it is about as insane as using as basic premise that the "christian religion pretend that jesus was a raptor dynosaur". This is as false as THAT.
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You realize that means that you are not trying to provide evidence your argument is correct, you are using rethoric to try to trick people into accepting your argument ? You realize how bad that means your argument is that you have to use such a trick because your argument does not stand on tis own ?
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20th May 2014, 08:20 AM | #7210 |
Great Dalmuti
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If Jabba's intention is to troll he's doing it right. One content-less post generated six replies in twenty minutes.
Make that seven. |
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"If it's real, then it gets more interesting the closer you examine it. If it's not real, just the opposite is true." - aggle-rithm |
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20th May 2014, 08:22 AM | #7211 |
Heretic Pharaoh
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Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
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20th May 2014, 08:23 AM | #7212 |
Non credunt, semper verificare
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20th May 2014, 08:23 AM | #7213 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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20th May 2014, 08:33 AM | #7214 |
Heretic Pharaoh
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Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
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20th May 2014, 08:40 AM | #7215 |
Deleterious Slab of Damnation
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"Oh god...What have you done, zooterkin? WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!?!?!" - Cleon |
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20th May 2014, 09:55 AM | #7216 |
Penultimate Amazing
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20th May 2014, 10:00 AM | #7217 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Posts: 17,646
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You can't! It is not allowed mathematically in your formula. But why do you want to do this at all? As I have said in the past, you could use 1,000,000,000 instead. It is still wrong biologically, but at least it is allowed by the math.
Hint: forget duplicating brains and dividing by infinity and just get to the rest of your proof. |
20th May 2014, 10:04 AM | #7218 |
Penultimate Amazing
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20th May 2014, 10:05 AM | #7219 |
Penultimate Amazing
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This. I said long ago that he might not be a troll but is indistinguishable from one. This admission of blatant intellectual dishonesty leads me to conclude that if he is not a troll then he is a perfect example of Dunning Kruger both in regard to his chosen topic and in regard to academic discourse.
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20th May 2014, 10:08 AM | #7220 |
Penultimate Amazing
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20th May 2014, 10:12 AM | #7221 |
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Good Morning, Mr. Savage!
I encourage you not to take these criticism, and the growing air of disenchantment with your approach, to heart. Instead, consider simply taking a new tack, starting with what you consider to be actual evidence that the "soul" (or any kind of consciousness that is independent of a specific neurosystem) exists, and is "immortal". |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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20th May 2014, 10:13 AM | #7222 |
Non credunt, semper verificare
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sigil, the city of doors
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He want desperatly to divide by infinity as this is the ONLY way he can make his "hypothesis" work. As soon as you use a fix number, even mind boggingly enormouse, he cannot anymore use bayes theorem to revisitate the original hypothesis, as the probability is not zero anymore.
Basically it is the holy cloth all over again : he start with his pet claim, then he adapt everything else to confirm his theory, and ignore everything else. ETA: Or alternatively he harps on it because he is a troll and knows he can get a cheap and easy rise out of dividing by infinity. |
20th May 2014, 11:45 AM | #7223 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Jabba, I have more or less given up posting in this thread, because you simply ignore responses, but this just puts a tin lid on it.
You are outright stating that you are fully aware of the flaws in your argument, you simply hoped nobody would notice. After a couple of years and hundreds of posts wherein this fatal flaw has been copiously noted from the outset, not only do you admit it, but you ask that it be ignored. Well, no. Your confession of two years of lying gets no absolution. You even have the cojones to accuse others of disrespect. When you flat out state you have been lying all along. Respect is not a right. It is a thing earned by honest effort. You have now burned all of yours. Ashes and dust. That is all you have. |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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20th May 2014, 12:03 PM | #7224 |
Critical Thinker
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Posts: 416
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Jabba, I am at a loss as to how time and space coordinates could possibly be relevant.
The only reference to time and space coordinates that I can recall had to do with people pointing out that a difference in initial location for two brains that are otherwise identical in structure and experience would be enough for the consciousnesses emerging from the two brains to develop in different ways. This observation has nothing to do with space/time coordinates. It is simply that the two consciousnesses would observe the world from different perspectives. Do I have that right? I'm not asking you, Jabba, I am asking the people who originally pointed this out. Trying to drag in "time and space coordinates" looks all too much like an attempt to add one more bullet point to the effective debate list. |
20th May 2014, 12:10 PM | #7225 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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20th May 2014, 12:24 PM | #7226 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,331
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To sig or not to sig, that is the question.
Indeed. Everybody knows jesus wasn't a raptor dynosaur. He did, however, include them in his ministry |
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How many zeros? Jabba |
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20th May 2014, 01:07 PM | #7227 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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20th May 2014, 01:11 PM | #7228 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,299
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No, I brought time/space coordinates into the discussion (and Planck length). He was arguing that two identical brains would have no biological reason for having separate senses of self. I pointed out that there was a very simple physical reason: they'd be different objects with different locations.
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Many other people tried to make the same point, simply by saying they'd be separate (but identical) objects, but Jabba didn't seem to grasp the point until I mentioned separate space/time coordinates. That...seems to have gotten through, somehow. And appears to have, at least temporarily, stumped him.
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Let's let him run with it and see where he tries to go. If he tries to twist it into something that doesn't make sense, I assure you, everyone will be all over that nonsense! |
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"Those who learn from history are doomed to watch others repeat it." -- Anonymous Slashdot poster "The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore." -- James Nicoll |
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20th May 2014, 01:39 PM | #7229 |
I would save the receptionist.
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New sig line.
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I have the honor to be Your Obdt. St L. Leader |
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20th May 2014, 01:56 PM | #7230 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Bravo.
This is the discernment that separates mods from us hoi polois. |
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How many zeros? Jabba |
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20th May 2014, 02:14 PM | #7231 |
Penultimate Amazing
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My kids still love me. |
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20th May 2014, 02:36 PM | #7232 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Ta eva so.
I grossly misused the term in another thread some months ago. It's comforting to know my progress is appreciated. |
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How many zeros? Jabba |
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20th May 2014, 05:08 PM | #7233 |
Critical Thinker
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21st May 2014, 12:05 AM | #7234 |
Graduate Poster
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Wow. Just...wow.
You do realize that it is the point I have been trying to bring up for months now. The main thing I've been focused on, to the point where I was advising others to let minor quibbles go, because this was such a major issue, yes? And were you really just hoping that nobody would bring it up? Or had it simply never occurred to you? And if the former, why has it taken you so long to begin addressing the question? I mean, once it was raised, surely it was time to stop hoping. And that time was long ago. Did you really not see that? Oh well, no matter. Now that it has been brought up, do you have a response?
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"Those who learn from history are doomed to watch others repeat it." -- Anonymous Slashdot poster "The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore." -- James Nicoll |
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21st May 2014, 03:31 AM | #7235 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,613
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Dave,
- I'm claiming that there is something about my "self" that would NOT get replicated if my brain were replicated. That “something” is the thing, process or illusion of my continuous lifetime self that disappears -- supposedly, never to return -- at the death of my brain. You agree that I would not return to life if my brain were perfectly replicated; yet, you claim that every aspect of my particular sense of self would be replicated by replicating my brain. Those seem contradictory to me. This is where we seem to be passing in the night. |
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"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
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21st May 2014, 03:55 AM | #7236 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 14,768
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Except we're not passing in the night. You're sailing your ship repeatedly onto the reef in front of our lighthouse. We're desperately shining the light into your wheelhouse, screaming frantically that you've run aground while you maintain flank speed as the hull rips apart beneath you. Occasionally you step onto your deck, look surprised that there's a lighthouse, and yell for us to join you on your ruined boat because, hey, the rocks have kept you from sinking completely.
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My kids still love me. |
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21st May 2014, 03:57 AM | #7237 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 14,768
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And I would like to extend a long overdue Thank You to xtifr who remained mostly quiet or absent at the beginning of this thread but who has become and remained the best at identifying, clarifying, and remaining focused on key issues. I can't find an individual post that I would nominate for TLA, but for body of work, it has been supremely educational.
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My kids still love me. |
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21st May 2014, 04:01 AM | #7238 |
Penultimate Amazing
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How many zeros? Jabba |
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21st May 2014, 04:24 AM | #7239 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,438
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We understand your position. We are also quite certain that it's wrong. Here's why:
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Similarly, if a perfect copy of your brain were recreated from the beginning state (the moment sperm and egg do their thing) your sense of self would not be "reborn", because it would be impossible for the new person to have the exact same experiences that you've had. Thus it's sense of self would not be the same as yours. There is no contradiction here. Do you understand this? |
21st May 2014, 04:24 AM | #7240 |
Schrödinger's cat
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
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Would a perfect replica of the Mona Lisa be the Mona Lisa?
If the original Mona Lisa was destroyed and a perfect replica made would the replica be the original returned? ETA: What distinguishes the original from the replica is its spacetime coordinates. If an object's worldline though spacetime is continuous it is the original; if there are two worldlines there is an original and a replica. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldline |
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"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett |
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