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Old 20th May 2014, 12:32 AM   #7201
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Good Evening, Mr. Savage!

it is not that your "communication" is "getting worse".

It seems to be his comprehension that is the problem.
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Old 20th May 2014, 12:43 AM   #7202
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Comprehension, like honesty, isn't part of "truly effective debate."
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Old 20th May 2014, 07:56 AM   #7203
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Originally Posted by xtifr View Post
No, that doesn't help. We may already be on the same page about that point. It's the "fully defined prior to its actual existence" part that doesn't make any sense to me. I can't tell if I agree or disagree on that point, because I'm really not sure what you mean by that.

And the illusion part is the appearance of continuity. A sense of self is an event that occurs, and its a unique event each time, even in the same brain.


It's defined indirectly by the old brain, which is the template it was copied from. It's defined directly by the new brain, which it's a part of. And I'm still not sure what you mean by "defined". That doesn't seem like the right word to use, especially the way you've been using it.

Bottom line though, you still haven't addressed my points about physical location, finite universe, and the Planck length, even though you acknowledged them a few posts back. How you define the PSoS doesn't help you if you can't get past those points. (Assuming you actually still want to justify dividing by infinity.)
xtifr,

- I do want to address those points. I also want to address the issue of time and space coordinates, and I still want to justify dividing by infinity.
- I recognize the problem that time and space coordinates bring to my claim of infinity, but I was sort of hoping that no one would consider the issue important enough to bring up... But then, maybe the time/space coordinate issue will help with the "define" issue. As superficially at least, those coordinates could finish preexisting definitions for each of us and ruin my claim of infinity...
- Does this help?

- I'll be back.
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Old 20th May 2014, 08:01 AM   #7204
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
xtifr,

- I do want to address those points. I also want to address the issue of time and space coordinates, and I still want to justify dividing by infinity.
- I recognize the problem that time and space coordinates bring to my claim of infinity, but I was sort of hoping that no one would consider the issue important enough to bring up... But then, maybe the time/space coordinate issue will help with the "define" issue. As superficially at least, those coordinates could finish preexisting definitions for each of us and ruin my claim of infinity...- Does this help?

- I'll be back.
Could you rephrase that? I don't grok Gibberish.
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Old 20th May 2014, 08:03 AM   #7205
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
xtifr,

- I do want to address those points.


Alas, ambition ≠ capability.



Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
I also want to address the issue of time and space coordinates, and I still want to justify dividing by infinity.


How about a cure for cancer and conquering third world poverty while you're at it?



Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I recognize the problem that time and space coordinates bring to my claim of infinity, but I was sort of hoping that no one would consider the issue important enough to bring up...


I'll bet you were.

Seriously, you're hoping that nobody will notice the great gaping holes in your malformed arguments?

Where the hell do you think you are?



Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
But then, maybe the time/space coordinate issue will help with the "define" issue. As superficially at least, those coordinates could finish preexisting definitions for each of us and ruin my claim of infinity...


Your claim of infinity has been dead in the water for years.



Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Does this help?

- I'll be back.



- No.

- Why?
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Old 20th May 2014, 08:09 AM   #7206
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One serious sign of a bad case of Woo is people plugging "infinity" into equations as if it is a proper number.
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Old 20th May 2014, 08:13 AM   #7207
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I recognize the problem that time and space coordinates bring to my claim of infinity, but I was sort of hoping that no one would consider the issue important enough to bring up...

"I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it all right." - Basil Fawlty
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Old 20th May 2014, 08:16 AM   #7208
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
xtifr,

- I do want to address those points. I also want to address the issue of time and space coordinates, and I still want to justify dividing by infinity.
- I recognize the problem that time and space coordinates bring to my claim of infinity, but I was sort of hoping that no one would consider the issue important enough to bring up... But then, maybe the time/space coordinate issue will help with the "define" issue. As superficially at least, those coordinates could finish preexisting definitions for each of us and ruin my claim of infinity...
- Does this help?

- I'll be back.
Good Morning, Mr. Savage!

By now, it should be evident even to you that you are not going to be able to set up your "gotcha" moment, because your premises are so far removed from reality,

Why not go at it form the other end?

Why not simply present what you think is the evidence that the "soul" exists, and is "immortal"?
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Old 20th May 2014, 08:18 AM   #7209
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
xtifr,

- I do want to address those points. I also want to address the issue of time and space coordinates, and I still want to justify dividing by infinity.
Sigh. Do you udnerstand how that read ? That read like this :
"yes I was told many time this is mathematically incorrect but whatever you say guys, I do not care, I will do it anyway".

You cannot divide by infinity. You cannot use infinity as youa re using in arithmetic probabilistic operation.

It is not a "under some circumstance" kind of "may not". it is a cannot. As in , you cannot in any circumstance whatsoever do that in probability.

Do YOU understand the concept of impossibility ? It is not allowed in normal arithmetic to do that kind of manipulation with infinity.

If you can't even agree to use basic arithmetic then any attempt at convincing people which DO agree to sue basic arithmetic is doomed.

Jabba, it is about as insane as using as basic premise that the "christian religion pretend that jesus was a raptor dynosaur". This is as false as THAT.

Quote:
- I recognize the problem that time and space coordinates bring to my claim of infinity, but I was sort of hoping that no one would consider the issue important enough to bring up...
In other word you recognized the weakness of your argument but you decided to ggo ahead and hoped nobody would catch.

You realize that means that you are not trying to provide evidence your argument is correct, you are using rethoric to try to trick people into accepting your argument ? You realize how bad that means your argument is that you have to use such a trick because your argument does not stand on tis own ?

Quote:
But then, maybe the time/space coordinate issue will help with the "define" issue. As superficially at least, those coordinates could finish preexisting definitions for each of us and ruin my claim of infinity...
- Does this help?

- I'll be back.
No. What would help is for you to finally admit that your attempt of using infinity was flawed and not acceptable

Last edited by Aepervius; 20th May 2014 at 08:21 AM.
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Old 20th May 2014, 08:20 AM   #7210
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If Jabba's intention is to troll he's doing it right. One content-less post generated six replies in twenty minutes.

Make that seven.
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Old 20th May 2014, 08:22 AM   #7211
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I recognize the problem that time and space coordinates bring to my claim of infinity, but I was sort of hoping that no one would consider the issue important enough to bring up...


"I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it all right." - Basil Fawlty


I'm astounded that Jabba thinks he can make such a tacit admission of his intellectual dishonesty and still expect anyone to take his tripe seriously.

Up to now I've tried to resist accusations of sheer trollery, but it is what it is and he deserves to be called on it.


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Old 20th May 2014, 08:23 AM   #7212
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
If Jabba's intention is to troll he's doing it right. One content-less post generated six replies in twenty minutes.

Make that seven.
Personally my own hypothesis has been that Jabba has long recognized he has lost, but just out of spite he is going for the long run (also known as : whoever get the last post in the thread has won, also "last poster thread").
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Old 20th May 2014, 08:23 AM   #7213
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
If Jabba's intention is to troll he's doing it right. One content-less post generated six replies in twenty minutes.

Make that seven.
Everbody gotta have a hobby...
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Old 20th May 2014, 08:33 AM   #7214
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Personally my own hypothesis has been that Jabba has long recognized he has lost, but just out of spite he is going for the long run (also known as : whoever get the last post in the thread has won, also "last poster thread").


I reckon he's just filling in time until he hears back from the Whangers.
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Old 20th May 2014, 08:40 AM   #7215
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I do want to address those points. I also want to address the issue of time and space coordinates, and I still want to justify dividing by infinity.

You cannot justify dividing by infinity any more than you can play Beethoven's 5th Symphony on the color blue.
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Old 20th May 2014, 09:55 AM   #7216
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post

- I do want to address those points. I also want to address the issue of time and space coordinates, and I still want to justify dividing by infinity.

- I'll be back.
More about what you intend to tell us. Well, I want to address why you are wrong. The difference is that I (and others) will actually post our arguments, rather than just saying we will. In fact, we already have. Try reading them.

No doubt you will be back.
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Old 20th May 2014, 10:00 AM   #7217
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
and I still want to justify dividing by infinity.
You can't! It is not allowed mathematically in your formula. But why do you want to do this at all? As I have said in the past, you could use 1,000,000,000 instead. It is still wrong biologically, but at least it is allowed by the math.

Hint: forget duplicating brains and dividing by infinity and just get to the rest of your proof.
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Old 20th May 2014, 10:04 AM   #7218
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I recognize the problem that time and space coordinates bring to my claim of infinity, but I was sort of hoping that no one would consider the issue important enough to bring up... But then, maybe the time/space coordinate issue will help with the "define" issue. As superficially at least, those coordinates could finish preexisting definitions for each of us and ruin my claim of infinity...
You knew there was a problem that would ruin your theory, but hoped no one would notice? Once again, what are you trying to do here if you don't believe your claim yourself?

Last edited by Giordano; 20th May 2014 at 10:07 AM.
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Old 20th May 2014, 10:05 AM   #7219
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Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
I'm astounded that Jabba thinks he can make such a tacit admission of his intellectual dishonesty and still expect anyone to take his tripe seriously.

Up to now I've tried to resist accusations of sheer trollery, but it is what it is and he deserves to be called on it.


This. I said long ago that he might not be a troll but is indistinguishable from one. This admission of blatant intellectual dishonesty leads me to conclude that if he is not a troll then he is a perfect example of Dunning Kruger both in regard to his chosen topic and in regard to academic discourse.
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Old 20th May 2014, 10:08 AM   #7220
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Does this help?
Was it supposed to?
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Old 20th May 2014, 10:12 AM   #7221
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Good Morning, Mr. Savage!

I encourage you not to take these criticism, and the growing air of disenchantment with your approach, to heart.

Instead, consider simply taking a new tack, starting with what you consider to be actual evidence that the "soul" (or any kind of consciousness that is independent of a specific neurosystem) exists, and is "immortal".
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Old 20th May 2014, 10:13 AM   #7222
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
You can't! It is not allowed mathematically in your formula. But why do you want to do this at all? As I have said in the past, you could use 1,000,000,000 instead. It is still wrong biologically, but at least it is allowed by the math.

Hint: forget duplicating brains and dividing by infinity and just get to the rest of your proof.
He want desperatly to divide by infinity as this is the ONLY way he can make his "hypothesis" work. As soon as you use a fix number, even mind boggingly enormouse, he cannot anymore use bayes theorem to revisitate the original hypothesis, as the probability is not zero anymore.


Basically it is the holy cloth all over again : he start with his pet claim, then he adapt everything else to confirm his theory, and ignore everything else.

ETA: Or alternatively he harps on it because he is a troll and knows he can get a cheap and easy rise out of dividing by infinity.

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Old 20th May 2014, 11:45 AM   #7223
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
xtifr,

- I do want to address those points. I also want to address the issue of time and space coordinates, and I still want to justify dividing by infinity.
- I recognize the problem that time and space coordinates bring to my claim of infinity, but I was sort of hoping that no one would consider the issue important enough to bring up... But then, maybe the time/space coordinate issue will help with the "define" issue. As superficially at least, those coordinates could finish preexisting definitions for each of us and ruin my claim of infinity...
- Does this help?

- I'll be back.
Jabba, I have more or less given up posting in this thread, because you simply ignore responses, but this just puts a tin lid on it.

You are outright stating that you are fully aware of the flaws in your argument, you simply hoped nobody would notice.

After a couple of years and hundreds of posts wherein this fatal flaw has been copiously noted from the outset, not only do you admit it, but you ask that it be ignored.

Well, no. Your confession of two years of lying gets no absolution. You even have the cojones to accuse others of disrespect. When you flat out state you have been lying all along.

Respect is not a right. It is a thing earned by honest effort. You have now burned all of yours.

Ashes and dust. That is all you have.
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Old 20th May 2014, 12:03 PM   #7224
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
xtifr,

- I do want to address those points. I also want to address the issue of time and space coordinates, and I still want to justify dividing by infinity.
- I recognize the problem that time and space coordinates bring to my claim of infinity, but I was sort of hoping that no one would consider the issue important enough to bring up... But then, maybe the time/space coordinate issue will help with the "define" issue. As superficially at least, those coordinates could finish preexisting definitions for each of us and ruin my claim of infinity...
- Does this help?

- I'll be back.
Jabba, I am at a loss as to how time and space coordinates could possibly be relevant.

The only reference to time and space coordinates that I can recall had to do with people pointing out that a difference in initial location for two brains that are otherwise identical in structure and experience would be enough for the consciousnesses emerging from the two brains to develop in different ways.

This observation has nothing to do with space/time coordinates. It is simply that the two consciousnesses would observe the world from different perspectives.

Do I have that right? I'm not asking you, Jabba, I am asking the people who originally pointed this out.

Trying to drag in "time and space coordinates" looks all too much like an attempt to add one more bullet point to the effective debate list.
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Old 20th May 2014, 12:10 PM   #7225
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Originally Posted by Humots View Post
Jabba, I am at a loss as to how time and space coordinates could possibly be relevant.

The only reference to time and space coordinates that I can recall had to do with people pointing out that a difference in initial location for two brains that are otherwise identical in structure and experience would be enough for the consciousnesses emerging from the two brains to develop in different ways.

This observation has nothing to do with space/time coordinates. It is simply that the two consciousnesses would observe the world from different perspectives.

Do I have that right? I'm not asking you, Jabba, I am asking the people who originally pointed this out.

Trying to drag in "time and space coordinates" looks all too much like an attempt to add one more bullet point to the effective debate list.
I fear it is simply more "let's just call the red car, 'blue' since I think 'you guys' all agree with me anyway, even though you keep insisting that the red car (that I call blue) is really red" misdirection.
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Old 20th May 2014, 12:24 PM   #7226
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
[ . . .] I still want to justify dividing by infinity. [ . . .]
To sig or not to sig, that is the question.



Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
[ . . .]Jabba, it is about as insane as using as basic premise that the "christian religion pretend that jesus was a raptor dynosaur". This is as false as THAT. [ . . .]
Indeed.
Everybody knows jesus wasn't a raptor dynosaur.
He did, however, include them in his ministry
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Old 20th May 2014, 01:07 PM   #7227
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
To sig or not to sig, that is the question.
You gotta get siggy widdit!
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Old 20th May 2014, 01:11 PM   #7228
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Originally Posted by Humots View Post
Jabba, I am at a loss as to how time and space coordinates could possibly be relevant.

The only reference to time and space coordinates that I can recall had to do with people pointing out that a difference in initial location for two brains that are otherwise identical in structure and experience would be enough for the consciousnesses emerging from the two brains to develop in different ways.
No, I brought time/space coordinates into the discussion (and Planck length). He was arguing that two identical brains would have no biological reason for having separate senses of self. I pointed out that there was a very simple physical reason: they'd be different objects with different locations.

Quote:
This observation has nothing to do with space/time coordinates. It is simply that the two consciousnesses would observe the world from different perspectives.
It's more than just that. The two brains would each have a separate consciousness, even during the very brief time where those consciousnesses would remain identical. And that's because of of, yes, space/time. They'd be separate objects.

Many other people tried to make the same point, simply by saying they'd be separate (but identical) objects, but Jabba didn't seem to grasp the point until I mentioned separate space/time coordinates. That...seems to have gotten through, somehow. And appears to have, at least temporarily, stumped him.

Quote:
Do I have that right? I'm not asking you, Jabba, I am asking the people who originally pointed this out.

Trying to drag in "time and space coordinates" looks all too much like an attempt to add one more bullet point to the effective debate list.
It's not. It's the first thing that's gotten him to acknowledge that separate-but-identical objects would be separate objects. He seems to be genuinely worried about the concept, hence the "I was sort of hoping that no one would consider the issue important enough to bring up" comment. (And boy, ain't that telling?)

Let's let him run with it and see where he tries to go. If he tries to twist it into something that doesn't make sense, I assure you, everyone will be all over that nonsense!
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Old 20th May 2014, 01:39 PM   #7229
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Old 20th May 2014, 01:56 PM   #7230
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Bravo.
This is the discernment that separates mods from us hoi polois.
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Old 20th May 2014, 02:14 PM   #7231
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
Bravo.
This is the discernment that separates mods from us hoi polois.
10 points for using hoi polloi correctly! Huzzah!

Three cheers and a tiger for you!
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Old 20th May 2014, 02:36 PM   #7232
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Ta eva so.
I grossly misused the term in another thread some months ago.
It's comforting to know my progress is appreciated.
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Old 20th May 2014, 05:08 PM   #7233
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Originally Posted by xtifr View Post
No, I brought time/space coordinates into the discussion (and Planck length). He was arguing that two identical brains would have no biological reason for having separate senses of self. I pointed out that there was a very simple physical reason: they'd be different objects with different locations.


It's more than just that. The two brains would each have a separate consciousness, even during the very brief time where those consciousnesses would remain identical. And that's because of of, yes, space/time. They'd be separate objects.

Many other people tried to make the same point, simply by saying they'd be separate (but identical) objects, but Jabba didn't seem to grasp the point until I mentioned separate space/time coordinates. That...seems to have gotten through, somehow. And appears to have, at least temporarily, stumped him.


It's not. It's the first thing that's gotten him to acknowledge that separate-but-identical objects would be separate objects. He seems to be genuinely worried about the concept, hence the "I was sort of hoping that no one would consider the issue important enough to bring up" comment. (And boy, ain't that telling?)

Let's let him run with it and see where he tries to go. If he tries to twist it into something that doesn't make sense, I assure you, everyone will be all over that nonsense!
Thanks for the clarification.

I thought Jabba was introducing some new Jabba-stuff, especially with the reference to Zeno's Paradox; i.e. trying to twist it into something that doesn't make sense.
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Old 21st May 2014, 12:05 AM   #7234
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I recognize the problem that time and space coordinates bring to my claim of infinity, but I was sort of hoping that no one would consider the issue important enough to bring up...
Wow. Just...wow.

You do realize that it is the point I have been trying to bring up for months now. The main thing I've been focused on, to the point where I was advising others to let minor quibbles go, because this was such a major issue, yes?

And were you really just hoping that nobody would bring it up? Or had it simply never occurred to you? And if the former, why has it taken you so long to begin addressing the question? I mean, once it was raised, surely it was time to stop hoping. And that time was long ago. Did you really not see that?

Oh well, no matter. Now that it has been brought up, do you have a response?

Quote:
But then, maybe the time/space coordinate issue will help with the "define" issue. As superficially at least, those coordinates could finish preexisting definitions for each of us and ruin my claim of infinity...
Yeah, you know, I'm suddenly much less interested in the "preexisting definitions" issue, especially if the separate locations thing will, er, finish it. However, I think that may mean that I can answer your earlier question about whether I agree about the preexisting definitions. I think I do not. I'm still not sure, but it seems like a side issue compared to the different locations thing vs. infinity. Maybe we should focus on that, and return to preexisting definitions only if it proves necessary.

Quote:
- Does this help?
Wow, I'm just...I'm...Wow! I'm not entirely sure, but I think, maybe, yes?
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Old 21st May 2014, 03:31 AM   #7235
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
Jabba, what part of your proposition do you think we don't understand?
Dave,
- I'm claiming that there is something about my "self" that would NOT get replicated if my brain were replicated. That “something” is the thing, process or illusion of my continuous lifetime self that disappears -- supposedly, never to return -- at the death of my brain. You agree that I would not return to life if my brain were perfectly replicated; yet, you claim that every aspect of my particular sense of self would be replicated by replicating my brain. Those seem contradictory to me. This is where we seem to be passing in the night.
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Old 21st May 2014, 03:55 AM   #7236
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- I'm claiming that there is something about my "self" that would NOT get replicated if my brain were replicated. That “something” is the thing, process or illusion of my continuous lifetime self that disappears -- supposedly, never to return -- at the death of my brain. You agree that I would not return to life if my brain were perfectly replicated; yet, you claim that every aspect of my particular sense of self would be replicated by replicating my brain. Those seem contradictory to me. This is where we seem to be passing in the night.
Except we're not passing in the night. You're sailing your ship repeatedly onto the reef in front of our lighthouse. We're desperately shining the light into your wheelhouse, screaming frantically that you've run aground while you maintain flank speed as the hull rips apart beneath you. Occasionally you step onto your deck, look surprised that there's a lighthouse, and yell for us to join you on your ruined boat because, hey, the rocks have kept you from sinking completely.
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Old 21st May 2014, 03:57 AM   #7237
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And I would like to extend a long overdue Thank You to xtifr who remained mostly quiet or absent at the beginning of this thread but who has become and remained the best at identifying, clarifying, and remaining focused on key issues. I can't find an individual post that I would nominate for TLA, but for body of work, it has been supremely educational.
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Old 21st May 2014, 04:01 AM   #7238
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Seconded.


Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- I'm claiming that there is something about my "self" that would NOT get replicated if my brain were replicated. That “something” is the thing, process or illusion of my continuous lifetime self that disappears -- supposedly, never to return -- at the death of my brain. You agree that I would not return to life if my brain were perfectly replicated; yet, you claim that every aspect of my particular sense of self would be replicated by replicating my brain. Those seem contradictory to me. This is where we seem to be passing in the night.
What do you mean by 'supposedly, never to return'?
Of course it can't return, Jabba. Do you remember how a sense of self and consciousness are defined?
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Old 21st May 2014, 04:24 AM   #7239
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- I'm claiming that there is something about my "self" that would NOT get replicated if my brain were replicated. That “something” is the thing, process or illusion of my continuous lifetime self that disappears -- supposedly, never to return -- at the death of my brain. You agree that I would not return to life if my brain were perfectly replicated; yet, you claim that every aspect of my particular sense of self would be replicated by replicating my brain. Those seem contradictory to me. This is where we seem to be passing in the night.
We understand your position. We are also quite certain that it's wrong. Here's why:

Quote:
You agree that I would not return to life if my brain were perfectly replicated; yet, you claim that every aspect of my particular sense of self would be replicated by replicating my brain. Those seem contradictory to me.
As has been pointed out countless times, the sense of self is not a static thing. It is constantly changing, evolving. Thus a replication of your brain would replicate your sense of self at the moment of replication. (Note the critical piece here--AT THE MOMENT OF REPLICATION.) The moment after the replicated brain starts functioning in the new body, it would begin to change as its experiences would be different from yours from that moment forward.

Similarly, if a perfect copy of your brain were recreated from the beginning state (the moment sperm and egg do their thing) your sense of self would not be "reborn", because it would be impossible for the new person to have the exact same experiences that you've had. Thus it's sense of self would not be the same as yours.

There is no contradiction here. Do you understand this?
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Old 21st May 2014, 04:24 AM   #7240
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- I'm claiming that there is something about my "self" that would NOT get replicated if my brain were replicated. That “something” is the thing, process or illusion of my continuous lifetime self that disappears -- supposedly, never to return -- at the death of my brain. You agree that I would not return to life if my brain were perfectly replicated; yet, you claim that every aspect of my particular sense of self would be replicated by replicating my brain. Those seem contradictory to me. This is where we seem to be passing in the night.
Would a perfect replica of the Mona Lisa be the Mona Lisa?

If the original Mona Lisa was destroyed and a perfect replica made would the replica be the original returned?

ETA:

What distinguishes the original from the replica is its spacetime coordinates. If an object's worldline though spacetime is continuous it is the original; if there are two worldlines there is an original and a replica.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldline
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