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Porterboy · 3rd October 2006, 12:19 PM

I was wondering how Masaru Emoto responded to James Randi's invitation to take the $million challenge.

Masaru Emoto is the man who has published a study of how different things effect ice crystal formation. Here's his website:

http://www.hado.net/index2.html

He claims that water crystals form in different ways when influenced by many strange things, including homeopathic material dilutions and words written on the water containers.

I can see some obstacles in testing his theories. If the ice crystals are really effected by such factors as thought and mental intent then the thoughts of those conducting the experiment could influce its outcome. In this case Emoto's ideas might lie in the realms of the "unproven and unprovable".

If he's taken Randi up on his offer I'd be interested to see the outcome.

Mr. Scott · 5th October 2006, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by Porterboy

I can see some obstacles in testing his theories. If the ice crystals are really effected by such factors as thought and mental intent then the thoughts of those conducting the experiment could influce its outcome. In this case Emoto's ideas might lie in the realms of the "unproven and unprovable".

Well, the one consistent feature of nearly all paranormal claims is that the presence of a skeptic seems to cancel out all the power of the believers. If Randi has any say on how Emoto's experiments are run, the ice crystals would, as if by magic, start to behave exactly in accordance with the know laws of physics. It seems that a single skeptic can override the fragile psychokinetic willpower of a million believers. Aren't we powerful

?

Wowbagger · 5th October 2006, 02:47 PM

Maybe he saw this, and was motivated not to persist:

CFLarsen · 6th October 2006, 02:30 AM

He went the way other woo claimants have gone: Oblivion.

Who hears of Schwartz today?

Their claims are stale, without developing in the face of new discoveries or criticisms. So, they fade away, with only their followers to continue believing.

Pseudoscientists vs Paranormalists

fuelair · 6th October 2006, 06:59 AM

I believe he transformed into an emotocon.

Zygar · 6th October 2006, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by fuelair

I believe he transformed into an emotocon.

Chris Haynes · 6th October 2006, 02:42 PM

He is the subject of today's "Friday dose of woo":
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/20...oooooommmm.php

simonmaal · 27th October 2006, 08:13 AM

Call me stupid or old-fashioned, but what exactly is a 'water crystal'? I've never heard of them before.

Puggy · 27th October 2006, 08:25 AM

I believe he's riding the "What the bleep do You know?" train now. But it seems there's been a train-wreck because I haven't heard anything lately.

I saw a DVD at Costco a couple of weeks ago, about the water memory BS, don't remember its name.

Emoto did some lectures at Mexican UNIVERSITIES about a year ago, but since dissapeared.

I remember Randi setting up a challenge to Emoto, and a probable protocol in one of his commentaries.

Puggy · 27th October 2006, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by simonmaal

Call me stupid or old-fashioned, but what exactly is a 'water crystal'? I've never heard of them before.

I'll call You simonmaal, and I found the Randi commentary on this BS: http://www.randi.org/jr/052303.html. It's the second section.

rwguinn · 27th October 2006, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by simonmaal

Call me stupid or old-fashioned, but what exactly is a 'water crystal'? I've never heard of them before.

Ice?

simonmaal · 28th October 2006, 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by Puggy

I'll call You simonmaal, and I found the Randi commentary on this BS: http://www.randi.org/jr/052303.html. It's the second section.

I still don't get it: these tests are being carried out on water, not ice, yet Emoto is claiming that water crystals exist in water whilst in its liquid state. Despite reading this synposis, I still have absolutely no idea what this is all about. Perhaps the confusion is not my problem; it resides in the 'theory'.

Of particular note is this 'Doctorate' from theOpen International University of Alternative Medicine; the following link takes us there:

http://www.altmeduniversity.com/

Looks pretty much like a diploma mill to me.

The doctorate involves "five papers and the student will be asked to answer the same at his (sic) place of residence. The answer scripts should be sent to the Institute for evaluation."

Or you can go for a Doctor of Philosophy, which is obtained thus: "The candidate has to submit an original & authentic research work (thesis) of at least 300 pages (on full scape paper) in any branch of alternative medicine under the guidance of a competent person or institution after obtaining the prior approval of this institute."

I think these two excerpts tell us all we need to know.

Porterboy · 18th November 2006, 08:46 PM

This subject reminds me about the debate over homeopathy. According to James Randi, homeopathic remedies are so thouroughly diluted that they probalby don't contain one single molecule of the original active ingredient. If the original active ingredient works the same way as Emoto's words and thoughts do then it somehow changes the water and this is what the cure is.

I know that homeopathy has been debunked, but I did try it twice on my excema and it worked fairly well, at least as well as the urea cream I got from my doctor. The condition has gone away (and it's a relief, I can tell you!), but if it ever came back I would consider using homeopathy again.

Is it possible that the debunkers have missed something?

rjh01 · 18th November 2006, 09:09 PM

The problem with excema is that it tends to go away on its own, even without treatment.

The creams that the doctor give you for it are not very good. They are no cure. If not used properly they can even make the condition worse.

Mobyseven · 19th November 2006, 01:59 AM

Originally Posted by rjh01

The problem with excema is that it tends to go away on its own, even without treatment.

The creams that the doctor give you for it are not very good. They are no cure. If not used properly they can even make the condition worse.

Depends on what cream you're given and what type of excema it is.

I'm a walking skin problem, but my skin actually doesn't look too bad. This is mostly because of the different creams and such I use (for months I looked disgusting - the excema came on quickly, and just got worse and worse).

For example, on my elbows, I generally moisturize and use a mild steroid cream (or strong if it really flares up). On my face I moisturize and use Elidel in some places, and Nizoral in others.

I really am a walking disaster sometimes...but it's under control now.

Kimpatsu · 19th November 2006, 02:10 AM

Originally Posted by simonmaal

Call me stupid or old-fashioned, but what exactly is a 'water crystal'? I've never heard of them before.

I have. It's called "ice"... :P

Chris Haynes · 19th November 2006, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by Mobyseven

...I'm a walking skin problem, but my skin actually doesn't look too bad. This is mostly because of the different creams and such I use (for months I looked disgusting - the excema came on quickly, and just got worse and worse).....

I used to be that way too... Until I was finally diagnosed as being allergic to nickel (a very common allergy). So I have removed my wedding rings (someday we will have redone with gold hardened without nickel), make sure my watch is either plastic or a stainless steel back and have had to buy special sewing pins and needles. Now I very seldom use creams.

Gord_in_Toronto · 19th November 2006, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by Porterboy

. . .
I know that homeopathy has been debunked, but I did try it twice on my excema and it worked fairly well, . . .

Many so-called homeopathic remedies prove upon analysis to contain actual ingredients in non-homeopathic quantities. This is often one explanation that it "works".

robinson · 20th November 2006, 02:15 AM

I hardly can stand to report this, but in

Quote:

October 2006, parapsychologist Dean Radin from the Institute of Noetic Sciences published the results of a "pilot test" of a double blind experiment on Emoto's claims, using four water samples. The study reports that photographed crystals were rated as more beautiful when they came from samples that had been sent a long-distance "prayer of gratitude" by a group led by Emoto. This has encouraged Radin to initiate a more more extensive test.

Porterboy · 20th November 2006, 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by Mobyseven

Depends on what cream you're given and what type of excema it is.

I'm a walking skin problem, but my skin actually doesn't look too bad. This is mostly because of the different creams and such I use (for months I looked disgusting - the excema came on quickly, and just got worse and worse).

For example, on my elbows, I generally moisturize and use a mild steroid cream (or strong if it really flares up). On my face I moisturize and use Elidel in some places, and Nizoral in others.

I really am a walking disaster sometimes...but it's under control now.

I'm glad for you. It's a really nasty condition that can completely destroy your life, at its most extreme.

Yes, moisturization is vital. I still use it regularly every time I wash my hands or shave.

Porterboy · 20th November 2006, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

Many so-called homeopathic remedies prove upon analysis to contain actual ingredients in non-homeopathic quantities. This is often one explanation that it "works".

Could well be the case. I'm not a homeopathic champion who will use it simply out of principle. I'll use it if it is effective. If it doesn't work I won't.

I've found that my ecsema seems to be stress-related. It always crops up when I'm frightened or worried about something.

Porterboy · 20th November 2006, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by robinson

I hardly can stand to report this, but in

Dean Radin appeared in "What the BLEEP Do We Know", I remember. I doubt if you can call him impartial though.

robinson · 21st November 2006, 06:55 AM

He was mentioned in a thread over in the Science subforum, as being a crank.

In other news, for $4000 you can buy a device for

Quote:

Using your voice sample to determine best frequencies and elements from the Periodic Table needed for creating Personally Imprinted Scalarwave Structured Water.

http://www.hado.net/sound_energy.html

I smell scam.

lizaonavon · 12th December 2006, 05:02 PM

Masaru Emoto still earns as many yen as he can---he is part of the "Ocean of Gratitude" Cruise, where you can pay thousands of dollars to hear his delusions while cruising caribbean islands February 2007. oceanofgratitude.com. If his H2O crystals stretch your Chem 101 too far, other charismatics are on deck to heal anything you might imagine. Private sessions, of course, are available.

robinson · 12th December 2006, 05:13 PM

Please tell me that is a joke, right?

lizaonavon · 12th December 2006, 06:00 PM

It's true.
Astounding that people can let themselves be so deluded and spend so much money while doing it.

robinson · 12th December 2006, 06:09 PM

http://www.oceanofgratitudecruise.com/

Its not JUST Masaru, which is what I found impossible to believe. It is a whole OCEAN of love and gratitude. These things happen all the time.

3rd October 2006, 12:19 PM	#1
Porterboy Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 418	Whatever Happened to Masaru Emoto? I was wondering how Masaru Emoto responded to James Randi's invitation to take the $million challenge. Masaru Emoto is the man who has published a study of how different things effect ice crystal formation. Here's his website: http://www.hado.net/index2.html He claims that water crystals form in different ways when influenced by many strange things, including homeopathic material dilutions and words written on the water containers. I can see some obstacles in testing his theories. If the ice crystals are really effected by such factors as thought and mental intent then the thoughts of those conducting the experiment could influce its outcome. In this case Emoto's ideas might lie in the realms of the "unproven and unprovable". If he's taken Randi up on his offer I'd be interested to see the outcome.
	__________________ I'm a Hospital Porter... have I mentioned that before?

5th October 2006, 02:18 PM	#2
Mr. Scott Under the Amazing One's Wing Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: USA Posts: 2,312	Originally Posted by Porterboy I can see some obstacles in testing his theories. If the ice crystals are really effected by such factors as thought and mental intent then the thoughts of those conducting the experiment could influce its outcome. In this case Emoto's ideas might lie in the realms of the "unproven and unprovable". Well, the one consistent feature of nearly all paranormal claims is that the presence of a skeptic seems to cancel out all the power of the believers. If Randi has any say on how Emoto's experiments are run, the ice crystals would, as if by magic, start to behave exactly in accordance with the know laws of physics. It seems that a single skeptic can override the fragile psychokinetic willpower of a million believers. Aren't we powerful ?
	__________________ "thhere's waaaay too much colonialism and white supremacy in our culture to even THINK about addressing the religion of brown people, the end." A+ Global Moderator ceepolk, Dec. 9, 2012 Last edited by Mr. Scott; 5th October 2006 at 02:19 PM. Reason: Typos

5th October 2006, 02:47 PM	#3
Wowbagger The Infinitely Prolonged Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space) Posts: 13,673	Maybe he saw this, and was motivated not to persist:
	__________________ WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be. SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/ An open conference on science and skepticism, where *you* could be a presenter! By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!

6th October 2006, 02:30 AM	#4
CFLarsen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 42,804	He went the way other woo claimants have gone: Oblivion. Who hears of Schwartz today? Their claims are stale, without developing in the face of new discoveries or criticisms. So, they fade away, with only their followers to continue believing. Pseudoscientists vs Paranormalists
	__________________ SkepticReport.com

6th October 2006, 06:59 AM	#5
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 29,307	I believe he transformed into an emotocon.
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 29,307

6th October 2006, 02:15 PM	#6
Zygar Lex Luthor's Evil Twin Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 2,609	Originally Posted by fuelair I believe he transformed into an emotocon.

6th October 2006, 02:42 PM	#7
Chris Haynes Perfectly Poisonous Person Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Wacky Washington Way Out West Posts: 4,214	He is the subject of today's "Friday dose of woo": http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/20...oooooommmm.php
	__________________ I used to be intelligent... but then I had kids "HCN, I hate you!" ( so sayeth Deetee at http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1077344 )... What I get for linking to http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/

27th October 2006, 08:13 AM	#8
simonmaal Critical Thinker Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: North East England Posts: 372	Call me stupid or old-fashioned, but what exactly is a 'water crystal'? I've never heard of them before.

27th October 2006, 08:25 AM	#9
Puggy Thinker Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Baja Posts: 174	I believe he's riding the "What the bleep do You know?" train now. But it seems there's been a train-wreck because I haven't heard anything lately. I saw a DVD at Costco a couple of weeks ago, about the water memory BS, don't remember its name. Emoto did some lectures at Mexican UNIVERSITIES about a year ago, but since dissapeared. I remember Randi setting up a challenge to Emoto, and a probable protocol in one of his commentaries.

27th October 2006, 08:27 AM	#10
Puggy Thinker Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Baja Posts: 174	Originally Posted by simonmaal Call me stupid or old-fashioned, but what exactly is a 'water crystal'? I've never heard of them before. I'll call You simonmaal, and I found the Randi commentary on this BS: http://www.randi.org/jr/052303.html. It's the second section.

27th October 2006, 12:59 PM	#11
rwguinn Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 16 miles from 7 lakes Posts: 8,505	Originally Posted by simonmaal Call me stupid or old-fashioned, but what exactly is a 'water crystal'? I've never heard of them before. Ice?
	__________________ "Political correctness is a doctrine,...,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." "I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275

28th October 2006, 12:43 AM	#12
simonmaal Critical Thinker Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: North East England Posts: 372	Originally Posted by Puggy I'll call You simonmaal, and I found the Randi commentary on this BS: http://www.randi.org/jr/052303.html. It's the second section. I still don't get it: these tests are being carried out on water, not ice, yet Emoto is claiming that water crystals exist in water whilst in its liquid state. Despite reading this synposis, I still have absolutely no idea what this is all about. Perhaps the confusion is not my problem; it resides in the 'theory'. Of particular note is this 'Doctorate' from theOpen International University of Alternative Medicine; the following link takes us there: http://www.altmeduniversity.com/ Looks pretty much like a diploma mill to me. The doctorate involves "five papers and the student will be asked to answer the same at his (sic) place of residence. The answer scripts should be sent to the Institute for evaluation." Or you can go for a Doctor of Philosophy, which is obtained thus: "The candidate has to submit an original & authentic research work (thesis) of at least 300 pages (on full scape paper) in any branch of alternative medicine under the guidance of a competent person or institution after obtaining the prior approval of this institute." I think these two excerpts tell us all we need to know.
	Last edited by simonmaal; 28th October 2006 at 12:50 AM.

18th November 2006, 08:46 PM	#13
Porterboy Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 418	This subject reminds me about the debate over homeopathy. According to James Randi, homeopathic remedies are so thouroughly diluted that they probalby don't contain one single molecule of the original active ingredient. If the original active ingredient works the same way as Emoto's words and thoughts do then it somehow changes the water and this is what the cure is. I know that homeopathy has been debunked, but I did try it twice on my excema and it worked fairly well, at least as well as the urea cream I got from my doctor. The condition has gone away (and it's a relief, I can tell you!), but if it ever came back I would consider using homeopathy again. Is it possible that the debunkers have missed something?
	__________________ I'm a Hospital Porter... have I mentioned that before?

18th November 2006, 09:09 PM	#14
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 17,320	The problem with excema is that it tends to go away on its own, even without treatment. The creams that the doctor give you for it are not very good. They are no cure. If not used properly they can even make the condition worse.

19th November 2006, 01:59 AM	#15
Mobyseven President of Covert-Ops Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Not the Rat. Posts: 5,672	Originally Posted by rjh01 The problem with excema is that it tends to go away on its own, even without treatment. The creams that the doctor give you for it are not very good. They are no cure. If not used properly they can even make the condition worse. Depends on what cream you're given and what type of excema it is. I'm a walking skin problem, but my skin actually doesn't look too bad. This is mostly because of the different creams and such I use (for months I looked disgusting - the excema came on quickly, and just got worse and worse). For example, on my elbows, I generally moisturize and use a mild steroid cream (or strong if it really flares up). On my face I moisturize and use Elidel in some places, and Nizoral in others. I really am a walking disaster sometimes...but it's under control now.

19th November 2006, 02:10 AM	#16
Kimpatsu Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Tokyo Posts: 3,145	Originally Posted by simonmaal Call me stupid or old-fashioned, but what exactly is a 'water crystal'? I've never heard of them before. I have. It's called "ice"... :P
	__________________ Tony Kehoe "Most people, I believe, think that you need a God to explain the existence of the world, and especially the existence of life. They are wrong, but our education system is such that many people don't know it. "--Richard Dawkins

19th November 2006, 09:58 AM	#17
Chris Haynes Perfectly Poisonous Person Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Wacky Washington Way Out West Posts: 4,214	Originally Posted by Mobyseven ...I'm a walking skin problem, but my skin actually doesn't look too bad. This is mostly because of the different creams and such I use (for months I looked disgusting - the excema came on quickly, and just got worse and worse)..... I used to be that way too... Until I was finally diagnosed as being allergic to nickel (a very common allergy). So I have removed my wedding rings (someday we will have redone with gold hardened without nickel), make sure my watch is either plastic or a stainless steel back and have had to buy special sewing pins and needles. Now I very seldom use creams.
	__________________ I used to be intelligent... but then I had kids "HCN, I hate you!" ( so sayeth Deetee at http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1077344 )... What I get for linking to http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/

19th November 2006, 01:13 PM	#18
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,423	Originally Posted by Porterboy . . . I know that homeopathy has been debunked, but I did try it twice on my excema and it worked fairly well, . . . Many so-called homeopathic remedies prove upon analysis to contain actual ingredients in non-homeopathic quantities. This is often one explanation that it "works".
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

20th November 2006, 02:15 AM	#19
robinson Banned Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 6,136	I hardly can stand to report this, but in Quote: October 2006, parapsychologist Dean Radin from the Institute of Noetic Sciences published the results of a "pilot test" of a double blind experiment on Emoto's claims, using four water samples. The study reports that photographed crystals were rated as more beautiful when they came from samples that had been sent a long-distance "prayer of gratitude" by a group led by Emoto. This has encouraged Radin to initiate a more more extensive test.
robinson Banned Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 6,136

20th November 2006, 08:48 PM	#20
Porterboy Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 418	Originally Posted by Mobyseven Depends on what cream you're given and what type of excema it is. I'm a walking skin problem, but my skin actually doesn't look too bad. This is mostly because of the different creams and such I use (for months I looked disgusting - the excema came on quickly, and just got worse and worse). For example, on my elbows, I generally moisturize and use a mild steroid cream (or strong if it really flares up). On my face I moisturize and use Elidel in some places, and Nizoral in others. I really am a walking disaster sometimes...but it's under control now. I'm glad for you. It's a really nasty condition that can completely destroy your life, at its most extreme. Yes, moisturization is vital. I still use it regularly every time I wash my hands or shave.
	__________________ I'm a Hospital Porter... have I mentioned that before?

20th November 2006, 08:50 PM	#21
Porterboy Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 418	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto Many so-called homeopathic remedies prove upon analysis to contain actual ingredients in non-homeopathic quantities. This is often one explanation that it "works". Could well be the case. I'm not a homeopathic champion who will use it simply out of principle. I'll use it if it is effective. If it doesn't work I won't. I've found that my ecsema seems to be stress-related. It always crops up when I'm frightened or worried about something.
	__________________ I'm a Hospital Porter... have I mentioned that before?

20th November 2006, 08:52 PM	#22
Porterboy Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 418	Originally Posted by robinson I hardly can stand to report this, but in Dean Radin appeared in "What the BLEEP Do We Know", I remember. I doubt if you can call him impartial though.
	__________________ I'm a Hospital Porter... have I mentioned that before?

21st November 2006, 06:55 AM	#23
robinson Banned Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 6,136	He was mentioned in a thread over in the Science subforum, as being a crank. In other news, for $4000 you can buy a device for Quote: Using your voice sample to determine best frequencies and elements from the Periodic Table needed for creating Personally Imprinted Scalarwave Structured Water. http://www.hado.net/sound_energy.html I smell scam.
robinson Banned Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 6,136

12th December 2006, 05:02 PM	#24
lizaonavon New Blood Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2	Masaru Emoto still earns as many yen as he can---he is part of the "Ocean of Gratitude" Cruise, where you can pay thousands of dollars to hear his delusions while cruising caribbean islands February 2007. oceanofgratitude.com. If his H2O crystals stretch your Chem 101 too far, other charismatics are on deck to heal anything you might imagine. Private sessions, of course, are available.
lizaonavon New Blood Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2	Last edited by lizaonavon; 12th December 2006 at 05:05 PM. Reason: increase specificity

12th December 2006, 05:13 PM	#25
robinson Banned Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 6,136	Please tell me that is a joke, right?
robinson Banned Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 6,136

12th December 2006, 06:00 PM	#26
lizaonavon New Blood Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2	Gratitude cruise is true It's true. Astounding that people can let themselves be so deluded and spend so much money while doing it.
lizaonavon New Blood Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2

12th December 2006, 06:09 PM	#27
robinson Banned Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 6,136	http://www.oceanofgratitudecruise.com/ Its not JUST Masaru, which is what I found impossible to believe. It is a whole OCEAN of love and gratitude. These things happen all the time.
robinson Banned Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 6,136