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Old 29th January 2008, 11:29 PM   #41
Sizzler
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Originally Posted by Jonnyclueless View Post
Sizzler must have missed the part where they listed all the other possible causes. And while THEY may think those temperatures cannot be reached in an office fire, doesn't mean they couldn't have been reached in the WTC. As well as ignoring that some of the possible causes would have nothing to do with the fires in the WTC.

But if it helps one to live out a fantasy by pretending something is not debunked (forget that it's not an issue of debunking anyways), then so be it. Kinda of like how Sizzler kept asking about the Pentagon security cameras yet kept ignoring all the posts that WOULD address his questions. Probably not intentional, but a common trend among people who are clearly hoping to find a conspiracy if possible.
Yes the pentagon thread was a train wreck I must admit. I think a plane hit the building anyway so it doesn't matter in the end. I've calmed myself down now and feel a little more rational.

Forgive me for my past actions in that thread.

So how about these temperatures?

Quote:
From the paper:
---------------------------------------------------------
Table 1. Approximate Minimum Temperatures Required Process and material
°C
°F

To form Fe-O-S eutectic (with ~50 Mol % sulfur) in steel
1,000
1,832

To melt aluminosilicates (spherule formation)
1,450
2,652

To melt iron (spherule formation)
1,538
2,800

To melt iron (III) oxide (spherule formation)
1,565
2,849

To vaporize lead
1,740
3,164

To melt molybdenum (spherule formation)
2,623
4,753

To vaporize aluminosilicates
2,760
5,000
Are you suggesting that these temperatures were reached in the WTC fires?

And if you are, what is your source for temperatures from ~1400C to 2,700C?

ps. 40 replies later and no one has addressed these temperatures......is that squirming I hear?????

Last edited by Sizzler; 29th January 2008 at 11:31 PM.
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Old 29th January 2008, 11:42 PM   #42
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sizzler, NOTHING NEW HAS BEEN presented IN HIS NEW paper.

why do you want us to rehash the same crap we've been sayng for the last 2 years? if you so want to see what we say about his claim,s SEARCH Stephen Jones on thsi forum.

Sorry, but your "truth" seeking is abhorantly absent. YOU have done nothing to do any research on your own, EXCEPT from the liars of the 911 truth movement.

How many times must it be said that the temperatures DID NOT Need to reach it to MELT STEEL! how many times must it be said that STEEL will FAIL at temperatures HALF of its melting point? DO YOU understand what FAIL means? YOU happen to do it with every post you make.
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Old 29th January 2008, 11:56 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
Pigments and fillers used in plastics
Fly ash from the combustion of cellulose-based materials: wood, cardboard and paper
Now there is a good source of aluminum and silicone, in that koalin, an alumino-silicate mineral is used as a filler in plastics, paints and gloss and self-duplicating papers.

Quote:
Welding fume left in the towers from construction activities
That was the first thing that popped into my mind.

Quote:
Wear particles from grinding and cutting during construction of the towers
I guess if you run and alumino-silicate grinding whell over the iron bead on a weld, you will produce some iron-coated alumino-silicate objects at a high temperature. Grinding wheels are not impervious to wear, most working men would hasten to point out.
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Old 30th January 2008, 01:19 AM   #44
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Putting my critical thinking skills to work...

I've just read the new article at JONES. Being a complete layperson in the field of science, I decided to consider the arguments in the paper with as open a mind as I possibly can given my bias, and then analyzing the comments from this thread and those at 9/11 Blogger and the Loose Change forum.

Upon reading, the first thing that stuck out to me was the original location and collection of the samples. It didn't click right away as to what was off, but I had my suspicions in the back of my mind through reading the paper. While Jones tried to be specific in giving the addresses where the samples were collected, he did not give a solid enough explanation of why he believed these samples truly reflected the conditions of the WTC at the time of its collapse, IMO. As a previous poster commented, why were control samples not used in this experiment? I think his "these samples are different from normal office dust" argument is rather weak.

As I was reading, the arguments of Jones et al. seemed reasonable. To sum it up, there were spheres found that MIGHT have been caused by significantly higher temperatures than NIST suggests were present in the building. (Of course, to make this argument work, he has to bring up the whole "fire can't melt steel" bunk in order to then cite the correct way it collapsed from the NIST report. I'm still wondering why he even dug up that strawman to begin with.)

Now, to a layperson reading this, it makes sense. But, Jones et al. leaves out other possible causes of the spherules, including those that occur naturally. Regardless of whether these other possible causes are correct, Jones' mistake is that he jumps to the conclusion that "something else (therm?te, cough, cough) must have been to blame, and that's why we need a new investigation!" Excuse me, isn't proving a hypothesis the function of a scientific paper? What's with the JAQing off?

I'd like to get into defenses of this paper, but its mostly a lot of "job well dones" from the sheep. Sorry if this was repetitive. Any criticism or corrections would be much appreciated.
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Old 30th January 2008, 01:39 AM   #45
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To be fair, I'll address the pro-JONES arguments in this forum. (Just a clarification, really.)

Essentially, their best argument is that of the the paper-- how it should be impossible for the spherules to be present, as the fires were below 1500C. However, one must take into consideration that A) there was no control group to prove Jones' samples were indicative of the conditions present in the WTC and B) Jones has offered a conclusion without even addressing (or testing) other possible explanation for the presence of the spherules.
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Old 30th January 2008, 03:50 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
Yes the pentagon thread was a train wreck I must admit. I think a plane hit the building anyway so it doesn't matter in the end. I've calmed myself down now and feel a little more rational.

Forgive me for my past actions in that thread.

So how about these temperatures?



Are you suggesting that these temperatures were reached in the WTC fires?

And if you are, what is your source for temperatures from ~1400C to 2,700C?

ps. 40 replies later and no one has addressed these temperatures......is that squirming I hear?????
Jones dose not prove that any of these temps were actually obtained or needed. Others here (The Almond, Crazy Chainsaw) have formed the same type of spheres at a much lower temp by naturally occurring reactions.

Did Jones eliminate these possibility's? If not these temps are just unsupported speculation.
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Old 30th January 2008, 03:57 AM   #47
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Sizzler:

I have actually been given (by Dr. Jones) other EDX spectra (not included in his paper) of spherical particles from his WTC dust sample.

Now here's the rub!

They are all different!

In other words SJ has found all kinds of iron-rich spherical particles.

Some have almost no Si, some have high Si. Some have no S, some have high S. Some have Ca, some have no Ca. Some show traces of common elements like K, Ti, Cr, Cu. Others show oddball elements like Ba.

However, even in SJ's new paper we have three DIFFERENT spectra. One is described as "typical" and one is amazingly described as "rather typical". Guess what? They are completely different!

So what does this tell us Sizzler? It tells us that there were MANY DIFFERENT souces of iron-rich microspheres.

Now we all know that SJ believes that thermite was used to bring down the towers. Well I guess that would mean that thermite was placed at strategic locations on the columns. The thermite would burn and generate microspheres of pretty much the same composition.

So how do you explain the Heinz 57 varieties of microspheres?
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Old 30th January 2008, 04:04 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by mrwronggt13 View Post
Jones is trying hard to lead people back to the official story. Co-author Crockett Grabbe has been suggesting that Muslim terrorists planted thermite in the towers. These are insiders doing disinfo, leading the truth movement down a dead end. The thermite theory is absurd.

Truth is, we've got evaporated steel, and plenty of radiation. It's some sort of nuclear reaction. Jones, plus guys like Frank Greening and Van Romero know what it was. They're all nuclear physicists and chemists from the nuclear industry.

They've figured out a relatively low-yield, controllable reaction. Probably fusion, given the tritium levels. Tritium has a half-life of 12 years. With all the clean-up work they've been doing at ground zero, they should have the levels down to where they can start building there pretty soon.

Look for cancer rates around ground zero to continue to explode over the next decade.
You'd make a very very funny stand up comedian.
That argument is ludicrous.
Even a small nuclear weapon would have levelled half the city.
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Old 30th January 2008, 04:12 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
Ok you are right. The exact samples Jones has were not analyzed by other scientists.

It doesn't matter though. Other scientists examined other samples and found the exact same particles.

Half of the paper is about the particles in the other samples analyzed by other scientists.

What specifically do you have problems with in the paper?
It is of UTMOST and CRITICAL importance Sizzler. You sure have come a long way from your "Mark of Woo" performance when you first arrived here claiming to be agnostic, only asking questions...that is what's not surprising.

I do not trust any of the "scientists" that co-wrote that paper, and there fore short of an independent lab analyzing the ACTUAL SAMPLES that Jones et al have, I consider the results and interpretation completely bogus, and not worthy of my time to READ THE PAPER.

TAM
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Old 30th January 2008, 04:29 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
Sizzler:

I have actually been given (by Dr. Jones) other EDX spectra (not included in his paper) of spherical particles from his WTC dust sample.

Now here's the rub!

They are all different!

In other words SJ has found all kinds of iron-rich spherical particles.

Some have almost no Si, some have high Si. Some have no S, some have high S. Some have Ca, some have no Ca. Some show traces of common elements like K, Ti, Cr, Cu. Others show oddball elements like Ba.

However, even in SJ's new paper we have three DIFFERENT spectra. One is described as "typical" and one is amazingly described as "rather typical". Guess what? They are completely different!

So what does this tell us Sizzler? It tells us that there were MANY DIFFERENT souces of iron-rich microspheres.

Now we all know that SJ believes that thermite was used to bring down the towers. Well I guess that would mean that thermite was placed at strategic locations on the columns. The thermite would burn and generate microspheres of pretty much the same composition.

So how do you explain the Heinz 57 varieties of microspheres?
That was interesting.

Basically, Jones has multiple varietes of microspheres, he chooses to analyze three different spectra in his paper, he then fails to explain why there basically are numerous different sources of microspheres even in his paper, and he also fails to analyze any natural explanations to any of his iron-rich microspheres.

That's a bad bad scientist.
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Old 30th January 2008, 05:56 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by ref View Post
That was interesting.

Basically, Jones has multiple varietes of microspheres, he chooses to analyze three different spectra in his paper, he then fails to explain why there basically are numerous different sources of microspheres even in his paper, and he also fails to analyze any natural explanations to any of his iron-rich microspheres.

That's a bad bad scientist.
The paper made me laugh,

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/54...scription.html


"The use of molybdenum for wire leads and other parts for electric lamps is old and well known to those skilled in the art. Molybdenum is used for such applications because of its ductility, conductivity, refractory properties and its thermal expansion properties which enable it to form hermetic seals with vitreous materials, such as glass and quartz. However, molybdenum is an oxidation sensitive material and rapidly oxidizes in an oxidizing environment (such as air) at temperatures of about 350° C. and higher. In the case of molybdenum used for outer lead wires and for foils for forming a hermetic seal with vitreous materials, such as a glass lamp envelope, this oxidation eventually results in an open electric circuit and lamp failure. In the case of molybdenum foil seals, the passageways or cracks formed during the sealing process permit oxygen to enter the foil area of the lamp seal as is disclosed in U.S. Pat. No. 4,918,353. Past efforts made to prevent the oxidation of molybdenum foils have included coating the outer half of the molybdenum foil with chromium (U.S. Pat. No. 3,420,944) and having the chromium coating wedge shaped (U.S. Pat. No. 3,793,615). Other proposed solutions to preventing oxidation of molybdenum outer leads consist of (i) covering the molybdenum with a coating or sleeve of nickel-plated brass (U.S. Pat. No. 4,015,165) and (ii) applying a sealing glass composition to the small space or passage between the outer leads and the lamp envelope (U.S. Pat. No. 4,539,509). "

Wonder why he does not give the oxidation and reduction temperatures for the metals for Fe that can be as low as 600c.
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Old 30th January 2008, 05:57 AM   #52
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Ref:

This is what SJ says about his new paper over at 911Blogger:

"Given the level of activity with our 9/11 Investigation at this stage -- things are moving quickly now -- the authors decided to go ahead and submit the paper to the Journal of 9/11 Studies, where it was accepted and quickly published following final reviews.
See what you're missing -- Journal of Physics!"

Given that two of the authors of the paper are the editors of JONES, it's no surprise the paper was accepted!

Makes you wonder who the reviewers were......
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Old 30th January 2008, 06:12 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
This is abstracted from an e-mail I sent to SJ about a month ago:

"Right now my short list of candidates that could contribute to iron-rich microspheres in the WTC dust (I am sure Chainsaw could add a lot more!) is (in no particular order!):

Pigments and fillers used in plastics
Fly ash from the combustion of cellulose-based materials: wood, cardboard and paper
Welding fume left in the towers from construction activities
Wear particles from grinding and cutting during construction of the towers
Iron powder cores from electronics (e.g. transformer cores)
Pyrotechnic agents (including thermite!)
NYC background levels of particulate from general environmental sources"

I would like to see SJ consider these sources, ONE BY ONE, before he draws any conclusions that he has found evidence for the use of explosives or thermite in the towers.

Well, first of all, he didn't draw any such conclusion in this most recent paper. He concludes that the evidence suggests very high temperatures, and recommends a new investigation to understand why.

Additionally, the paper didn't only reference iron-rich microspheres - it mentions other types of microspheres (some of which require hotter temperatures, like Mo), as well as dust particles with a swiss-cheese appearance (a result of boiling & evaporation). So even if you choose to ignore the iron-rich microspheres because you feel they could have come from anywhere, how do you ignore the rest of the evidence they present?

They don't rely on one single source for any of their claims - so those of you concerned about where the dust samples came from are obviously unaware that the USGS dust samples corroborate their findings -- and their conclusion (USGS just never attempted to explain why).
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Old 30th January 2008, 06:16 AM   #54
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I'm getting the impression based on certain comments that many of you have chosen not to even read the new paper.

Just to clarify for those who believe the paper presents nothing new - a FOIA request was used to obtain additional information from USGS with regard to their 9/11 dust samples. To the best of my knowledge, that hasn't been covered anywhere else.
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Old 30th January 2008, 06:20 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by ref View Post
That was interesting.

Basically, Jones has multiple varietes of microspheres, he chooses to analyze three different spectra in his paper, he then fails to explain why there basically are numerous different sources of microspheres even in his paper, and he also fails to analyze any natural explanations to any of his iron-rich microspheres.

That's a bad bad scientist.

Did you voice the same concern when NIST failed to even mention the microspheres found by USGS? If Jones is such a bad guy for doing what you described, I can't even imagine how you feel about NIST for ignoring them altogether.
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Old 30th January 2008, 06:27 AM   #56
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Where has all the moly gone?

Chainsaw:

Yes, I thought you would be posting on this one!

On the question of the WTC dust containing molybdenum, or "moly" as its known to chemists, I suspect SJ is thinking about this:

Laser Ignition of Nanocomposite Thermites" by J. J. Granier et al. Combustion and Flame 138, 373, (2004).

"Thermite reactions are characterized by large heat release, which make some ideal for ordnance applications. In this study Al and MoO3 (molybdenum trioxide), react to form products:

2Al + MoO3 -> Mo + Al2O3.

Delta(H) = 4705 kJ/kg

"Thermites are traditionally considered a difficult class of pyrotechnic to ignite due to the large thermal stimulus required. This is because ignition is usually achieved by melting of one of the two components followed by a diffusion-controlled reaction. The melting point for bulk aluminum is 660 deg C and MoO3 begins to sublime at 750 deg C."

This is probably why some "bright spark" thought of using MoO3 as the oxidizing agent in thermite formulations.

But if this type of thermite was used, moly should be found in great abundance in the WTC microspheres. So, my question is:

Where has all the moly gone?
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Old 30th January 2008, 06:34 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
I do not trust any of the "scientists" that co-wrote that paper, and there fore short of an independent lab analyzing the ACTUAL SAMPLES that Jones et al have, I consider the results and interpretation completely bogus, and not worthy of my time to READ THE PAPER.

You're in luck - the findings (and conclusion) are both corroborated by the USGS dust samples. The paper also contains interesting commentary on the WTC7 steel from Prof. Jonathon Barnett.

It's really a "must read" for someone like you who takes such an intellectually-honest & open-minded approach to understanding what happened on 9/11.
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Old 30th January 2008, 06:42 AM   #58
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Maybe someone can explain to me. How can they state the temperatures required without knowing what processes were involved in creating the spheres?
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Old 30th January 2008, 06:53 AM   #59
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I just don't get it. How is this weakly-presented case a smoking gun?

I suppose it represents just one more attempt to find those "anomalies" which, cumulatively, will pry apart the consensus model. (I.e., planes hit, fires started, buildings fell.) Actually, it's an interesting methodological point; does one look for such small-scale "anomalies," in an attempt to discredit the consensus, or does one go for the big picture, i.e., no planes?

I guess it depends on whether one is a lumper or a splitter.
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Old 30th January 2008, 07:10 AM   #60
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I have a dumb question:

Why is Jones et. al. assuming the spherules were formed during the fires? And, as an associated question, what temperatures can be reached locally by welding? Jones's paper builds the thesis that the temps during the fires were not hot enough to account for the spherule formation, plus they were too hot to account for the local sources of sulfur to be involved. (correct me if I'm wrong about that, but I'm getting that from his sentence:
Quote:
The fact that sulfur evaporates at a low temperature, 445
°C, along with the very low levels of elemental sulfur in office buildings appears to preclude the possibility that
the eutectic could have formed as a result of a slow sulfidation process in the debris pile.
)

But, seems to me that welding events, either during the original construction of the towers, or afterwards during the rescue and debris dismantling might be a possible source of such spherules. Because the temperature during welding is very localized to the spot that the weld is occuring at, it seems to me that this might also be a possible mechanism for such formation.

That's just an off-the-cuff guess. Anything wrong with that thesis? Plus, how hot can the welding process get? I'm simply not informed enough about welding or construction to know if I'm on the right track with this or not, but it seems to me that, given that welding involves some melting of metals together, and given that steel's melting point is well above the temps Jones requires for his mechanism, that welding should also be considered.
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Old 30th January 2008, 07:12 AM   #61
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The paper gives the melting points of the various materials found in microspheres, and then suggests that the fires must have reached those temperatures in order to produce the spheres.

I see two problems with this.

One is, the idea of the "temperature reached by a fire" is vague, and Jones uses typical measurements which are macroscopic in scale. Most measurements of fire "temperature" are of the air layers in an enclosed space above the fire (usually the top layers, which get hottest.) Mean flame temperatures are sometimes also measured or estimated. But flame temperatures aren't uniform. Parts of a wood flame can have temperatures over 1700°C -- or higher in a post-flashover environment where radiation losses to the surroundings are reduced. Normally this is disregarded because it's only within small regions of the flame that such high temperatures are reached, so it doesn't greatly affect the heating of the surroundings, such as the air layers or even a macroscopic object that the flame might be impinging on. But it must be taken into account when the formation of very small particles is at issue. The paper is about microspheres; mean temperatures on a macroscopic scale are not the only relevant temperatures.

The second is that by concluding that the melting points of the materials in the microspheres must have been reached in the environment, Jones is implicitly assuming specific mechanisms of formation of the spheres: either small isolated chips of mixed metals melted into spherical shapes by the heat of their immediate surroundings (undergoing no chemical change in the process), or bulk amounts of mixed metals being melted and then subsequently separated into spherical droplets by mechanical agitation. (He seems to prefer the latter scenario.) But I'm given to understand by experts here that such spheres can also be formed by chemical reactions that occur at temperatures lower than the melting points, and (if I'm understanding correctly; please correct me if I'm wrong) those reactions can be exothermic, self-heating the spheres above the surrounding temperature.

Thus, the paper's contention that the spheres are evidence of ambient temperatures on a macroscopic scale reaching or exceeding the melting points of the metals in the spheres is not supported by the evidence offered.

Respectfully,
Myriad
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Old 30th January 2008, 07:13 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Maybe someone can explain to me. How can they state the temperatures required without knowing what processes were involved in creating the spheres?

"Approximate Minimum Temperatures Required"

That's the caption for Table 1 (the table that lists the temperatures). Did you read the paper?
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Old 30th January 2008, 07:17 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Maybe someone can explain to me. How can they state the temperatures required without knowing what processes were involved in creating the spheres?
If do not understand basic science, perhaps you should consider keeping your "debunking" and related nonsense to yourself.
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Old 30th January 2008, 07:20 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by deep44 View Post
"Approximate Minimum Temperatures Required"

That's the caption for Table 1 (the table that lists the temperatures). Did you read the paper?
Yes I did. Do you understand that different processes can effect the melting points of materials? I do.
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Old 30th January 2008, 07:22 AM   #65
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Interesting

1. Many of you have called for control samples: I submit that this was indeed done. Page 4-Control sample:
Quote:
iron rich spheres gathered from cutting steel with an oxyacetylene torch. Control sample 2: ordinary building dust as examined in RJ Lee Group, WTC Dust Signature Report, December, 2003,

2.
Quote:
Apollo20-So how do you explain the Heinz 57 varieties of microspheres?
Correct me if I'm wrong but your comment
Quote:
Now we all know that SJ believes that thermite was used to bring down the towers. Well I guess that would mean that thermite was placed at strategic locations on the columns. The thermite would burn and generate microspheres of pretty much the same composition.
is a strawman, correct? As no mention of thermite can be found in the paper.
Two, the data that you examined from Jones, were they iron rich? I think that is the point of the paper. What caused the iron to changes states the way that it did. It would be no surprise to find other samples with a variety of chemical properties, etc.

But for the sake of entertainment, your assuming that the placement of the thermite not mentioned in the paper was done at the exact same spots in the three towers. Locations that have the exact same environmental qualities that would result in identical chemical properties. A far stretch in my opinion that bears no impact on the paper.
Quote:
Ref-Basically, Jones has multiple varietes of microspheres, he chooses to analyze three different spectra in his paper, he then fails to explain why there basically are numerous different sources of microspheres even in his paper, and he also fails to analyze any natural explanations to any of his iron-rich microspheres.
Different sources of microspheres? Two, possibly three actually. Those towers I think fit the term for different sources.

3. Any thoughts on the USGS information that correlates the findings of this latest paper?

4. Did the USGS release the dust samples to independently verified?
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Old 30th January 2008, 07:22 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by bofors View Post
If do not understand basic science, perhaps you should consider keeping your "debunking" and related nonsense to yourself.
Pots and kettles. You sure are ungracious.
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Old 30th January 2008, 07:23 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
Chainsaw:

Yes, I thought you would be posting on this one!

On the question of the WTC dust containing molybdenum, or "moly" as its known to chemists, I suspect SJ is thinking about this:

Laser Ignition of Nanocomposite Thermites" by J. J. Granier et al. Combustion and Flame 138, 373, (2004).

"Thermite reactions are characterized by large heat release, which make some ideal for ordnance applications. In this study Al and MoO3 (molybdenum trioxide), react to form products:

2Al + MoO3 -> Mo + Al2O3.

Delta(H) = 4705 kJ/kg

"Thermites are traditionally considered a difficult class of pyrotechnic to ignite due to the large thermal stimulus required. This is because ignition is usually achieved by melting of one of the two components followed by a diffusion-controlled reaction. The melting point for bulk aluminum is 660 deg C and MoO3 begins to sublime at 750 deg C."

This is probably why some "bright spark" thought of using MoO3 as the oxidizing agent in thermite formulations.

But if this type of thermite was used, moly should be found in great abundance in the WTC microspheres. So, my question is:

Where has all the moly gone?
I agree 100 percent, Apollo20, the molybdenum should be much move abundant. If it was from thermite-thermate.

It looks like just a natural source,
in fact this morning I have to take some molybdenum and apply it to my tractor, hope it does not melt the front hub from all that heat produced by the thermite reaction.

http://www.schaefferoil.com/238_moly_grease.html

http://www.echodistributing.com/barium_moly.htm

Dr. Jones now has a direct connection to the navy seals.

http://www.sentrysolutions.com/HiSlipkew.shtml

I am sorry Apollo20 I just can not help laughing at Dr. Jones this time. Remember there was fly ash in the concrete mostly aluminum silicates.

Ca2Al2Si3O10(OH) calcium aluminum silicate hydroxide

http://www.gewater.com/handbook/boil..._Corrosion.jsp

What are the chances that the sample with all the molybdenum was next to a bridge or a road way?
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Old 30th January 2008, 07:23 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by bofors View Post
If do not understand basic science, perhaps you should consider keeping your "debunking" and related nonsense to yourself.
but he was "Just Asking Questions"tm

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Old 30th January 2008, 07:24 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Sizzler View Post
http://journalof911studies.com/articles/WTCHighTemp.pdf

This paper seems to raise a lot of the questions I have had recently had.

No mention of therm?te in this one.

So where did they go wrong?
Nowhere! Evidently heating steel by open fire does not produce dust or metal particles of any kind. Heated steel will deform. If it is compressed it will crumple up. But it will not rupture. Anyway, very little steel in WTC1 was heated upp (in the initiation zone). The rest below was of ambient temperature.

Everybody should know that WTC1 volume wise consisted of only 1% steel. Then it was 4% concrete, glass, furniture, etc. And then 95% air. But it was the steel columns and their spandrels that constituted the strength - spread around the walls and in the core as a spider web. There were thousands of welded, bolted and rivetted connections between all these steel parts.

Most of the weight (mass) of WTC1 was concrete in the floors bolted to the columns. This mass, if falling down, could never damage the vertical columns as it was located between the columns. Any falling concrete mass in the floors would simply miss the vertical columns and the spandrels. Anyway, the potential energy of that mass was too little to do any damage to the vertical columns. It could only shear off some small bolted connections between floors/columns.

To rip apart the steel columns and spandrels you need much more energy than potential energy of a concrete mass inside the towers. NIST has never explained how all these 1000's of abrupt ruptures of steel parts took place. It went fast!

Because the metal particles originate from the abrupt ruptures. And as shown in the article the metal particles could only have been formed at very high temperatures. It means, evidently, that the abrupt ruptures of the steel columns occurred at very high temperatures. NIST should explain how. This is the suggestion in the article.

Evidently you also find some other types of ruptures of steel structure in the rubble due to purely mechanical actions, but they are a tiny minority and easy to explain. Such ruptures do not produce dust and steel particles!

Good article. The authorities should read it.

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Old 30th January 2008, 07:24 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by bofors View Post
If do not understand basic science, perhaps you should consider keeping your "debunking" and related nonsense to yourself.
What I can't ask questions about what I'm unsure of? Go away adults want to discus things.
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Old 30th January 2008, 07:25 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by deep44 View Post
"Approximate Minimum Temperatures Required"

That's the caption for Table 1 (the table that lists the temperatures). Did you read the paper?

But the question remains: How can Jones state the minimum temperatures required, even approximately, without knowing what processes were involved in creating the spheres?

The answer is, of course, that he cannot. He's assuming a certain process (agitation of buik melted metal) and then concluding that the temperatures to cause that process must have existed. Similarly, if we assume that the spheres were created by ice-skating penguins, we can conclude that the fires must have been freezing cold.

Respectfully,
Myriad
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Old 30th January 2008, 07:27 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Thus, the paper's contention that the spheres are evidence of ambient temperatures on a macroscopic scale reaching or exceeding the melting points of the metals in the spheres is not supported by the evidence offered.

The paper makes no such contention. The paper is not only about microspheres - it includes other observations from various sources that also suggest exceedingly high temperatures.

Either way, the conclusion is more or less that NIST completely ignored this evidence, as opposed to acknowledging it and explaining why it happened. The authors suggest a new investigation to find out "why". That's hard to argue with, even from your point of view.
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Old 30th January 2008, 07:31 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
But the question remains: How can Jones state the minimum temperatures required, even approximately, without knowing what processes were involved in creating the spheres?

The answer is, of course, that he cannot. He's assuming a certain process (agitation of buik melted metal) and then concluding that the temperatures to cause that process must have existed. Similarly, if we assume that the spheres were created by ice-skating penguins, we can conclude that the fires must have been freezing cold.

Please re-read section 4.5 of the paper for a description of how microspheres are most commonly created. The listed temperatures
correspond to that description.
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Old 30th January 2008, 07:34 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
Ref:

This is what SJ says about his new paper over at 911Blogger:

"Given the level of activity with our 9/11 Investigation at this stage -- things are moving quickly now -- the authors decided to go ahead and submit the paper to the Journal of 9/11 Studies, where it was accepted and quickly published following final reviews.
See what you're missing -- Journal of Physics!"

Given that two of the authors of the paper are the editors of JONES, it's no surprise the paper was accepted!

Makes you wonder who the reviewers were......
I did a count earlier, less than 10% of the pro-conspiracy papers at his "journal" are written by science PhDs, who are someone else than the editors of the journal itself. Rather incestous setup.
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Old 30th January 2008, 07:35 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by deep44 View Post
The paper makes no such contention. The paper is not only about microspheres - it includes other observations from various sources that also suggest exceedingly high temperatures.

Either way, the conclusion is more or less that NIST completely ignored this evidence, as opposed to acknowledging it and explaining why it happened. The authors suggest a new investigation to find out "why". That's hard to argue with, even from your point of view.
NIST ignored what "evidence?" Microspheres of different metals were expected to be found in the dust. They are evidence that things were on fire. Guess what? NIST already knew that.

Reality's a bitch, ain't she?
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Old 30th January 2008, 07:41 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Yes I did. Do you understand that different processes can effect the melting points of materials? I do.

The process is described in section 4.5. Either way, the word approximate is the key here. They wouldn't have included that word if they had an exact number.

Regardless, the point is: NIST ignored all of this, despite numerous cues from USGS and FEMA. A new investigation is the only logical choice.
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Old 30th January 2008, 07:41 AM   #77
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Just to be clear, I would like to list my criticisms of Jones's paper:
  1. In section 2 (Methods), the authors fail to specify whether the detector on the SEM is a silicon lithium Si(Li) detector or a silicon drift detector (SDD). This is actually quite important since the SDD has a high instance of coincidence peaking which can cause misidentification of certain elements. Looking at the spectra, it appears to be a Si(Li) detector, but that's an educated guess at best.
  2. On page 2, in the section "Results", the author states, "The spherules found in the WTC dust were predominately iron-rich" without supporting his contention with a statistical analysis of the iron content of the particles available for analysis. He might mean that the particles he analyzed were iron rich, but that indicates heavy operator bias in selecting particles.
  3. The author makes no mention of the particle correction routine used to determine the composition of the particles. He further makes no indication of standards collected, or of calibrations run to determine what the relative deviation of a standardless particle quant would be. This is an extremely important point. Jones is reporting "approximate" particle compositions to one decimal place, indicating that his analysis has a deviation of +/- 0.1%. It, of course, would be helpful if Jones were to actually report the actual two standard normal deviation, but I think we've already established that such considerations are for real research papers, not Jones's dreck. Anyway, J.T. Armstrong in Electron Probe Quantitation (pp 296) reported 2 standard deviations for particle analysis using conventional ZAF corrections as +/- 55% relative. In the case of the iron composition given as a caption in Figure 3, it should read Fe = 10.7% +/- 5.9%.
  4. The caption under figure 4 states "The Fe-S-Al-O signature is striking, nothing like the signature of structural steel." This is a particularly appalling statement intending to somehow imply that all of the iron rich spherules from his "dust sample" had to be from structural steel or gypsum. Similar to what Dr. Greening has already pointed out, we can't simply assume that the only source of iron in the WTC dust was from steel. Nor can we assume that the temperatures necessary to vaporize the individual constituent elements of those spheres is what caused them to form in the first place. I mentioned rice husk ash in an earlier post which has an abundance of iron rich particles despite rather low burning temperatures. Crazy Chainsaw has also provided information regarding the vaporization of molybdenum at temperatures far below those required to vaporize the pure constituent metal.
  5. The caption under figure 5 states "The O/Fe ratio of 1.5 suggests that Fe2O3 is present, iron (III) oxide." Regarding my analysis in point 3, Jones can not state with any certainty that the O/Fe ratio is actually 1.5. Furthermore, Jones seems completely unaware that hydrogen atoms are not fluoresced during XEDS. This means that Jones cannot, with any certainty, determine if the particles are Fe2O3 or Fe(OH)2,3,4 or any variant thereof.
  6. On page 4, Jones reports the following, "No explanation for the presence of these iron-rich and silicate spheres (which imply very high temperatures along with droplet formation) is given in the published USGS reports." This is further evidence that he simply rejects the possibility that fires caused this ash sample. The USGS report's purpose was not to comment on the source of the iron rich spheres. In fact, I can't imagine why any researcher, when presented with a sample of ash from a building fire would think twice about finding iron.
  7. On page 4, Jones reports, "A WTC dust sample acquired at 130 Liberty Street shows a “mean of composition” of “Fe spheres” of 5.87% which is very high compared with “Fe spheres” found in ordinary building dust of only 0.04% [1]." Ladies and Gentlemen, I submit to you that Jones has decided to compare apples to oranges. He has chosen to compare the composition of ordinary building dust to ash from a building fire. And he thinks it's strange. Lunacy.
  8. The next several pages operate on the following argument: Because the temperature required to vaporize a pure metal is really high, these spheres cannot form in normal office fires. Of course, this argument is completely useless unless you compare the results to a similar office fire or across a series of office fires. Jones is expecting the scientific community at large to believe that such elements are not found in office fires because he says so.
  9. Finally, the appendix notes where Jones got his samples from. I'm sorry, but I honestly can't understand how any legitimate scientist could possibly believe the validity of Jones's source. There is absolutely no reason to believe that Jones's "WTC Dust" samples are from the actual World Trade Center. Suffice it to say that such forensic handling would certainly not be admissible in any court.
Anyway, that's the nuts and bolts of it. Jones has done an excellent job of writing a report that gives the appearance of scientific validity with absolutely no science to back it up. He has utterly neglected standardized analysis methods, ignored forensic evidence gathering techniques, and has based his argument on nothing more than his personal opinion. There is absolutely no reason to accept any of Jones's conclusions or results.
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Old 30th January 2008, 07:44 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
NIST ignored what "evidence?" Microspheres of different metals were expected to be found in the dust. They are evidence that things were on fire. Guess what? NIST already knew that.

Source, please? Without one, that's nothing more than a post-hoc rationalization.

Nice try, though.
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Old 30th January 2008, 07:46 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Swing Dangler View Post
1. Many of you have called for control samples: I submit that this was indeed done. Page 4-Control sample:
Submission noted and rejected swingy. That's not an appropriate control sample. If you can't figure out why for yourself, then you're really not qualified to make comment on this paper.

Let's face it, this paper is misleading to people who have little understanding of science and want to come to a certain conclusion.
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Old 30th January 2008, 07:46 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by deep44 View Post
Source, please? Without one, that's nothing more than a post-hoc rationalization.

Nice try, though.
The source is the same paper Jones cites. Oh, he didn't mention that part? I'm shocked.

Quote:
Considering the high temperatures reached during the destruction of the WTC, the following three types of combustion products would be expected to be present in WTC dust. These products are:

• Vesicular carbonaceous particles primarily from plastics
Iron-rich spheres from iron-bearing building components or contents
• High temperature aluminosilicate from building materials

...In addition to the spherical iron and aluminosilicate particles, a variety of heavy metal particles including lead, cadmium, vanadium, yttrium, arsenic, bismuth, and barium particles were produced by the pulverizing, melting and/or combustion of the host materials such as solder, computer screens, and paint during the WTC Event. Source (PDF)
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