|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
16th October 2008, 03:43 AM | #521 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 13,320
|
|
16th October 2008, 04:33 AM | #522 |
Mafia Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,579
|
I can only surmise you've given this link to draw our attention to this quote of Matt Grime:
Quote:
ETA: Your reaction is a tacit acknowledgement that this is indeed the case you were referring to. It is now easy for everyone to see that you've grossly distorted this case in your description here. Matt did give an accurate picture of your mathematical capabilities, and he didn't follow you to "any" forum: I've only seen both your handles on physicsforums.com and SFN - unless you've posted on other fora also with one of the many handles you've used on physicsforums.com ("Organic", "WWW", "Shemesh", "Lama") and every time was banned with. |
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf "I think accuracy is important" - Vixen |
|
16th October 2008, 04:38 AM | #523 |
ETcorngods survivor
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 24,328
|
Ah, great! You are still here, doron.
Ok, so please name one branch of Mathematics that is disconnected from any other branch. Please provide a single, interesting MAF example in the form *_*_* (or *_* or *_*_*_* or ...). Be complete by being specific as to what element the asterisk represents and what relation the underbar represents. Remember, there were claims you made you haven't yet backed up with evidence. Surely, if the claims were true, you'd be able to support them. |
__________________
A proud member of the Simpson 15+7, named in the suit, Simpson v. Zwinge, et al., and founder of the ET Corn Gods Survivors Group. "He's the greatest mod that never was!" -- Monketey Ghost |
|
16th October 2008, 04:59 AM | #524 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 13,320
|
Originally Posted by MattGrime
Dear Apathia, This is exactly the problem here. More you are a mathematician (based only on Western oriented culture) less you are able to get my ideas. The same problem holds if you are based only on Eastern oriented culture. My ideas hold as long as East and West complement each other. Yours, Doron |
16th October 2008, 05:18 AM | #525 |
Mafia Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,579
|
|
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf "I think accuracy is important" - Vixen |
|
16th October 2008, 06:51 AM | #526 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 378
|
|
__________________
"If it sounds too stupid to be true, probably some one already made a job out of it" |
|
16th October 2008, 06:59 AM | #527 |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 18,312
|
About Doron's handles:
Doron is probably a native Hebrew speaker. Non-speakers might be interested ot know "Shemes" means "sun" and "Lama" means "why?". Apparently Doron sees himself as shining sun of reason and truth in the world of mathematics, explaining to everybody else why things are (he wrongly believes) not going well. |
16th October 2008, 07:11 AM | #528 |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 18,312
|
Doron's problem is that he doesn't seem to undestand that concepts are not the same as the symbols, or the words, used to represent them.
E.g., he thinks that 0.2222222222.... in base 3 and 1 are different numbers, presumably because they are written differently. On the other hand, he thinks the x-axis in the plane (in Geometry) and the set R (in Calculus) are identical, since they are often referred to in similar words. He also, it seems, thinks that the term "infinity" as used in calculus (e.g., in the definition of a limit) and in set theory (e.g., in describing a set's cardinality) means the same thing in both fields. No wonder he is confused about what is going on in mathematics, or thinks that mathematical subfields don't communicate with each other, or that he wants to invent a new notation where every term means exactly one thing. |
16th October 2008, 07:55 AM | #529 |
ETcorngods survivor
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 24,328
|
Conflate may have more precise connotations than confuse, I think. For example, in the link ddt provided, Doron disparately wants points and real numbers to be the same thing. That gets him to his {.} notation. Then, he conflates sets with set members, referring to {.} as a member. Then he conflates set cardinality with set membership while at the same time conflating the general with the specific by concluding that since |{.}| = 1, {.} must represent the real number, 1. Then he conflates.... |
__________________
A proud member of the Simpson 15+7, named in the suit, Simpson v. Zwinge, et al., and founder of the ET Corn Gods Survivors Group. "He's the greatest mod that never was!" -- Monketey Ghost |
|
16th October 2008, 09:03 AM | #530 |
Zygoticly Phased
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,477
|
|
16th October 2008, 09:26 AM | #531 |
ETcorngods survivor
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 24,328
|
|
__________________
A proud member of the Simpson 15+7, named in the suit, Simpson v. Zwinge, et al., and founder of the ET Corn Gods Survivors Group. "He's the greatest mod that never was!" -- Monketey Ghost |
|
16th October 2008, 10:22 AM | #532 |
Zygoticly Phased
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,477
|
Doron,
now you're back, any update on what the A in MAF stands for? |
16th October 2008, 01:15 PM | #533 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,478
|
nvm
My policy of reading this thread in three or four-day chunks for maximum enjoyment has paid off bigtime today (reading from Oct 14th). All in one big hit I have had -
Talking fish. Doron "reports" a post by nominating it for TLA. Doron leaves. Doron comes back again. In the Doronverse signing-up at a forum five months before Doron equates to "follow after me to any forum that I wrote something in it". I take it I'm too late for the corndogs? |
16th October 2008, 02:03 PM | #534 |
Mafia Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,579
|
The "Deeper than primes" thing? The IIDB version is 3 years old and quite different, but he posted the same thing a month earlier at CFI. So yes, still surprising he had to edit the thing after posting.
The IIDB version is substantially different. And his concept of "Equation Tree" is kinda cute - I did CS as graduate studies after all . Too bad he didn't work that out. Not that it would be something revolutionary, not even new, but it would be the kind of thing that is fun and doable to work out on your own. |
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf "I think accuracy is important" - Vixen |
|
16th October 2008, 02:19 PM | #535 |
Mafia Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,579
|
Thanks for the clarification, Skeptic!
Could you also clarify what this Hebrew wiki page is about? It seems to be some kind of talk page or discussion page where Doron discusses with other wiki-members. I see some stuff in Latin letters I recognize from Doron papers, and Google translate revealed some discussion about Hilbert's 6th problem, but I've no idea what (Hebrew) wiki page(s) Doron wanted to include this stuff in. |
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf "I think accuracy is important" - Vixen |
|
16th October 2008, 02:41 PM | #536 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 28,521
|
This has probably been stated here before but doronshadmi seems to be obsessed with the conclusion of the following lecture by David Hilbert on mathematical problems (doronshadmi should note that the subject is not 'problems with mathematics').
In this conclusion David Hilbert describes mathematical science as an organism and uses the phrase 'organic unity'. This is a description only. It is not a specification of mathematics. Mathematical Problems Lecture delivered before the International Congress of Mathematicians at Paris in 1900 By Professor David Hilbert
Quote:
|
__________________
NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter (another observation) (and Abell 520) Electric comets still do not exist! |
|
16th October 2008, 03:15 PM | #537 |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 18,312
|
The short version is:
1). Doron wants to use wikipedia's "discussion" pages as a free-for-all discussion forum. 2). Others tell him that while there's more leeway allowed in wikipedia's discussion forums than in the entries themselves, it isn't really the place for a free-for-all discussion or "tentative results" (their polite term for "whatever the heck you're babbling about") but rather for established results. 3). Doron demands that they show him exactly where it says that he cannot use wikipedia's discussion forums in such a manner. 4). He then posts his usual gibberish, and demands everybody show exactly what is wrong with it. 5). Others complain that, in two days, he made about 50 edits of two entries ("The Lair's Paradox" and "Godel", I believe) "most of them trivial" and ask him to PLEASE use the "preview" button instead of posting and then changing the posts later, since "that makes our job harder". 6). Then the discussion, quite suddenly, veer away from mathematics to theology: they begin to discuss how logical the hypothesis that God exists is. A few gems: a). The title of the "does God exist?" thread is actually "On the big Bang, Atheism, and Onions." b). Doron and another poster spend most of the time discussing the onions: do they have a core, or an infinite number of layers? Onions are used as a metaphor for two ways to look at reality, one with a first cause (theism's God as a cause), the other as better and better natural explanations without a first cause (atheism). c). Doron claims the onions have both a core and an infinite number of layers, because he had discovered classical two-valued logic is wrong. d). He writes long-winded gibberish about theology as well as about mathematics (Cranks are very prolific in their gibberish). Example paragraph (they all are of the same kind): "When there's a dichotomy between the cooperation field and the expression field, consciousness, which is locked under the impressions of the expression field, understands the cooperation field (the unity aspect of consciousness) as the creator of the expression field (the multiplicity aspect of the consciousness)." It doesn't make any sense in Hebrew, either. Crank works have one advantage: they don't really lose anything in translation. e). Doron asks another poster angrily during that discussion: "are you going to listen to facts, or are you just going to use the form to spew your own theories?" |
17th October 2008, 01:31 AM | #538 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 13,320
|
No.
Coordination field (trunk), Expression field (branches) ( http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=505 ). |
17th October 2008, 01:46 AM | #539 |
Zygoticly Phased
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,477
|
|
17th October 2008, 01:47 AM | #540 |
Zygoticly Phased
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,477
|
|
17th October 2008, 03:50 AM | #541 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 378
|
|
__________________
"If it sounds too stupid to be true, probably some one already made a job out of it" |
|
17th October 2008, 07:36 AM | #542 |
Mafia Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,579
|
For more comedy on the Doron/Matt Grime battle, see this thread, from post #292. moshek (= Moshe Klein, the kindergarten teacher) quotes from post #287. Post #294 is Doron's threat to call Matt's university. Note also his use of the word "vulgarity".
It's much much longer than I hoped for. Thanks for the summary, it is comedy gold! Yes, editing is hard . Well, at least there's more words to it. Most of his "mathematical" gibberish leaves me (at least at first) puzzled how he hopped from one thing to another. Me too Doron, as you're still around anyway, care to answer my post #463? You've left quite some unanswered questions here that just beg for clarification. Oh, and when you want to complain: that triangle-shaped button with an exclamation mark, on the left, is for reporting a post. Learning to use an internet forum is difficult, I understand, and you've only used 40+ thus far. The moderators especially appreciate it if you send in a dozen or so reports in a row. |
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf "I think accuracy is important" - Vixen |
|
17th October 2008, 10:29 AM | #543 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 378
|
LOL, this keeps getting better and better. I guess there will be more corndogs after all.
|
__________________
"If it sounds too stupid to be true, probably some one already made a job out of it" |
|
17th October 2008, 11:39 AM | #544 |
Mafia Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,579
|
Oh, what about this one: "Two different models of infinity" in a computer security forum, section "Cryptographic Theory".
Just google for "complementarytheory" (as one word). It's the name of his geocities webpage, where he has stored all his PDFs. You won't get false hits, as it's nowhere else used as a single word; and it gives a complete view on Doron's web activities, as he invariably links to one of those PDFs. But yes, were are the corndogs? |
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf "I think accuracy is important" - Vixen |
|
17th October 2008, 01:46 PM | #545 |
Zygoticly Phased
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,477
|
|
18th October 2008, 04:10 PM | #546 |
Mafia Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,579
|
With all this talk about corn dogs, I'm getting really curious about the phenomenon. Too bad we don't have them over here. I could offer a typical Dutch snack: the FrikandelWP - especially tasty as "frikandel speciaal" with mayonnaise, curry sauce and chopped onions.
Apropos Doron's editing behavior, you should take a look at his "User Contributions" page at wikipedia. You don't have to be able to read Hebrew to see what the complaint about the frequent edits was about: whenever he edited a page, at least 2 edits of the same page followed within minutes... I was further reminded of Doron's "letter to Alain Connes" he posted to another forum:
Quote:
However, Prof. Alain Connes has a very interesting paper, "A View of Mathematics", on his website. It starts with:
Quote:
|
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf "I think accuracy is important" - Vixen |
|
19th October 2008, 09:42 AM | #547 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 13,320
|
MAF ( http://www.geocities.com/complementarytheory/UR.pdf ) is REI (Relation\Element Interaction):
"The first embryo of mental picture of the mathematical world one can start from is that of a network of bewildering complexity between basic concepts." ( http://alainconnes.org/docs/maths.pdf ) EDIT: "between" = relation "basic concopts" = elements |
19th October 2008, 09:48 AM | #548 |
Zygoticly Phased
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,477
|
|
19th October 2008, 10:26 AM | #549 |
ETcorngods survivor
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 24,328
|
|
__________________
A proud member of the Simpson 15+7, named in the suit, Simpson v. Zwinge, et al., and founder of the ET Corn Gods Survivors Group. "He's the greatest mod that never was!" -- Monketey Ghost |
|
19th October 2008, 11:03 AM | #550 |
Unbanned zombie poster
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Poughkeepsie, NY
Posts: 18,384
|
|
__________________
BRAINZZZZZZZZ |
|
19th October 2008, 03:03 PM | #551 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 13,320
|
Quote:
In other words, the Organic Paradigm of the mathematical science (trunk(=essence)\branches interaction): http://www.geocities.com/complementarytheory/OM.pdf http://www.geocities.com/complementarytheory/UR.pdf |
19th October 2008, 03:10 PM | #552 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 378
|
|
__________________
"If it sounds too stupid to be true, probably some one already made a job out of it" |
|
19th October 2008, 03:39 PM | #553 |
ETcorngods survivor
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 24,328
|
How you doing on coming up with any evidence to support your claims, doron?
You remember: (1) Provide any interesting example of MAF (complete with the specifics of what relation _ represents and what element * represents), and (2) Name any branch of Mathematics that is isolated from the others. Got anything? Anything at all? |
__________________
A proud member of the Simpson 15+7, named in the suit, Simpson v. Zwinge, et al., and founder of the ET Corn Gods Survivors Group. "He's the greatest mod that never was!" -- Monketey Ghost |
|
19th October 2008, 03:41 PM | #554 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 21,629
|
|
19th October 2008, 03:58 PM | #555 |
Mafia Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,579
|
|
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf "I think accuracy is important" - Vixen |
|
19th October 2008, 05:00 PM | #556 |
Unbanned zombie poster
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Poughkeepsie, NY
Posts: 18,384
|
|
__________________
BRAINZZZZZZZZ |
|
19th October 2008, 05:13 PM | #557 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 7,144
|
I had intended to persue my interest in Doron's "Universal Reasoning" or "Complementary Logic" in his thread at philosophy-forums.com. I was able to register there but unable to post. And now the philosophy-forums has vanished from the web. Since Doron is still checking in here, I'll say a few words and see where it goes.
Buried beneath Doron's landfill of missused and discarded mathematical terminology is an actual idea. Once it's made clear, then it can be discussed and critiqued in an intelligent way. It rarely comes to that because Doron's way of thinking is counterintuitive, as if from some culture isolated from the rest of the world. Now that we're in the Philosophy Section, I feel I can discuss Doron from a more general than mathematical angle. Back in Post#295 of this thread, I posted this simplistic into to Doron's frame of thinking: Doron posits a fundamental, essentail association of all abstract concepts prior to whatever meanings or designations given concepts may have. This is his "X/Y Complementation." For any abstract concept X, there is a polar opposite concept Y. In interactive combination (He calls it "Complementation.") they yield a matix of new concepts which in turn follow this "pre-axiomatic" rule of association. It doesn't make any difference what the X and Y designate, they already follow the Rule. When it comes to Logic this prior "complementation" yields the usual values of "True" and "False." but in the interactive combo of these polar opposites, he also gets the True False and the False True. In sets, the program yields a state where completion is not the final word, but there is the incomplete complete and the complete incomplete. In Numerology (Yes, I'm sarcastic here, because I like to call Doron's "Organic Natural Numbers" "paranormal" numbers." But this is a somewhat unfair caricature.) Doron's fundamental rule of association yields not only the familiar counting numbers, but a host of new critters such as 2_3 or 3_2 where the first number of the pair is adjectival. Again this is very simplistic, but it is the basic idea, the Yin-Yang of it, so to speak. If you get the idea, then there are a host of questions and critcisms that are not being addressed. I hope we can move on to these and not back to the years of forum wreckage and debacle Doron has behind him. It will be more interesting if we can get to questions that are relevant to the very different way Doron thinks. |
__________________
"At the Supreme Court level where we work, 90 percent of any decision is emotional. The rational part of us supplies the reasons for supporting our predilections." Justice William O. Douglas "Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures." Author Unknown |
|
19th October 2008, 05:39 PM | #558 |
Mafia Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,579
|
|
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf "I think accuracy is important" - Vixen |
|
19th October 2008, 06:30 PM | #559 |
Mafia Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,579
|
I noticed it is down. You should get a second email when your account is actually activated.
As put forward by you, it seems an idea that could be pursued and actually turned into mathematics - that's the goal, isn't it? And this wouldn't tear down the vast building of mathematics in order to replace it, but be an extra wing built onto it. However, I doubt that your analysis is right - for reasons put forward below, and because there's already precedent that your interpretation of Doron's work turned out not to be what he meant, in previous threads, despite your good efforts. "Wreckage" is, IMHO, put mildly. There's 5.5 years of Doron posting on numerous fora. On various fora, e.g., physicsforums.com, IIDB, and here, he met people who were inclined to meticulously point out the various errors in his mathematical reasoning and gradually grew tired with his not listening to their arguments. In that time, he's shown no inclination whatsoever to actually learn mathematics; instead, he's grown ever bolder in statements like "Cantor was wrong" up to his laughably incorrect rendering here of Cantor's diagonalization argument in the proof of the uncountability of R. Would he honestly have some actual idea, and not only vague delusions, then methinks, he would have taken the effort to understand how mathematics works. He obviously hasn't. He doesn't know what an axiom is, how a definition looks like, etc., everything a freshman math student learns is alien to him. He doesn't take to heart criticism from others, but on questions posed in the best case regurgitates the same he's said before - in words or in links to earlier posts - or gives an answer that is even vaguer than what the question was about in the first place. Would it be due to a lack of skill in English, then I honestly don't know what he's doing on English language boards. I note he's also active on haayal.co.il, a Hebrew-language board, and I obviously can't judge the clarity of his writings there, but I very much doubt it's better than his English writings - going on Skeptic's report of the wiki-discussion. And well, it's not that there's a lack of Hebrew-language highly-schooled mathematicians who could teach, coach or vet his work - apart from the questionable kindergarten teacher. I'll gladly leave the floor to you to see if your interpretation of Doron's writings gets his approval. |
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf "I think accuracy is important" - Vixen |
|
19th October 2008, 07:18 PM | #560 |
ETcorngods survivor
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 24,328
|
|
__________________
A proud member of the Simpson 15+7, named in the suit, Simpson v. Zwinge, et al., and founder of the ET Corn Gods Survivors Group. "He's the greatest mod that never was!" -- Monketey Ghost |
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|