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12th March 2010, 07:00 PM | #441 |
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Yes. My post explained why. They health care numbers I gave included a more complete picture of health care. Including the support from DOD, verterans affairs, SCHIp and so forth. all the quotes you show just mention medicare and medicade.
Because I honestly explained the source of data. Let's be honest, 6trillion isn't the same as 2.3 trillion. 1.) Your comparison assumes that there is something inherent in UHC that results in lower GDPs. This is inherently nonsensical. I see no reason why we can't have the cheaper/better system with a strong GDP. 2.) Looking at US medical bankrupty rates, this comparison becomes even more meaningless. |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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12th March 2010, 08:01 PM | #442 |
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I call goal post shifting. You answered something about why socialized something was "better" than real world current actuality.
The question was:
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12th March 2010, 08:10 PM | #443 |
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You can, but you would be wrong.
I explained why current US costs are so high. The health care plan will eliminate some of these mechanisms. Printing money isn't the only way governments pay for things. again, you are pretending that all government can do is print money. This is nonsense. By eliminating that feedback mechanism I describe, you eliminate the continual cost increases. YOu don't need to print more money when cost are no longer rising crazily. |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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12th March 2010, 09:22 PM | #444 |
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12th March 2010, 10:20 PM | #445 |
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Not exactly true. The http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/...0.html#usgs302 source mentioned a host of items that make up what it calls health care. And medicare/medicaid is barely mentioned at all. But I'm now willing to accept that the source you cited, which calculates a figure of 16% of GDP is accurate. Thanks for providing that.
Can you show us that the Canadian figures also include items like support from DOD, veterans affairs and so forth? If in 2007, Canadian health costs were 10.1% of GDP and Canada's GDP was $1.432 trillion (http://www.economywatch.com/gdp/world-gdp/canada.html ), then Canada's health care costs should total about $145 billion. This source http://secure.cihi.ca/cihiweb/products/hcic2007_e.pdf has a 2007 health care cost breakdown (Figure 2). Here is what it says: Distribution of Health Care spending Category Amount (billions) Hospitals 44.1 Retail Drugs 25.1 Physicians 19.4 Other Professionals 15.6 Public Health 8.6 Administration 5.7 Other Institutions 14.0 Capital 6.0 Other 9.4 Total 148 So the total is about right, but how can I be confident that it's based on an analysis anywhere near as detailed and inclusive as the one from which the US 16% of GDP is derived. It may be but can you convince me? Do you have a source which would give us confidence of that? Meanwhile … It isn't supposed to be, as the OP indicates. The OP mentions a component of the 6 trillion that is about the same and has the same rational as Ryan's 2.3 trillion. But it also mentions another, larger component that Ryan did not address. Just because Ryan didn't address that component doesn't mean it isn't valid. Perhaps he just overlooked it? Forest in the trees sort of thing. Not when one can go down the list of UHC countries and, one after another, they all have significantly lower per capita GDPs than the US. Where there is a trend like that, there might be an inherent reason. And the obvious difference is the type of economic philosophy that is behind what UHC exemplifies. And what does that have to do with per capita GDP? One of the fallacies of socialist thinking (exemplified by Obama) is that government can/should protect us from bankruptcies (and recessions). Both have an important purpose in a vibrant free market economy. Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood? |
13th March 2010, 01:53 AM | #446 |
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BeAChooser:
The OECD figures are generally considered to be the most accurate available. Their methodology aims to correct for variation. Being the most developed nations, their member governments have democratic oversight of the stats so the figures are constantly [EDIT: subject to correction] corrected. |
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OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
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13th March 2010, 06:40 AM | #447 |
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Sort of like we should believe everything Obama says about the cost of his
FACT: The US is headed toward 800B+ per year interest expenses in 2020. Progressive Faith driven belief: Universal Health Care is Gooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooood. We want it and we'll just ignore that it's another big source of spending that the country can't afford. |
13th March 2010, 07:37 AM | #448 |
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13th March 2010, 07:38 AM | #449 |
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The figures I have been quoting are for 2007. This is not a forecast but an assessment of what has happened. They are the best available. What figures do you want to use, and what is their provenance?
The figures have remained consistently trending upwards over different administrations, which suggests that there hasn't been any changing in the counting. The story was the same when told under Bush as under Obama. About 16% of the US GDP is spent on healthcare. For comparison, here are some of the other frequently-quoted numbers for 2007. United States---------16.0% France----------------11.0% Canada----------------10.1% Netherlands------------9.8% United Kingdom---------8.4% EDIT: And for the full group here is the chart of per capita spending, which another poster has already posted on this thread |
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OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
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13th March 2010, 07:40 AM | #450 |
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THe OECD's sources are easily verifiable. Find out if there is a problem.
are you saying Paul ryan doesn't know about the Cato institute? Don't you think that a 6trillion dollar argument would support his case more? I think it is funny that you assume are privy to information that a congressman involved in the CBO doesn't have. The GDP of the US was greater than other nations even before they adopted UHCs. Also, the US has a lower GDP per capita than some nations with a UHC. So your argument is simply illogical and contradicts the reality. I can't think of a better argument for UHC than simply quoting this argument against UHC. Who cares if someone gets cancer and dies a pauper. Who cares if a family becomes homeless because the mother was hit by a drunk driver and became mired in fees from a 16%GDP health care system. |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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13th March 2010, 07:41 AM | #451 |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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13th March 2010, 08:00 AM | #452 |
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I don't view it as relevant, whether or not it is true in a comparable sense, which is a different issue.
I'm more interested in why anyone in their right mind would think a government that was operating on fake (printed) money leveraged by future debt would in their wildest dreams believe increasing said obligations and liabilities of that government was "a good thing". Irregardless of political orientation, we could agree that of all the socialist, communist, fascist, and flavors of democratic governments on the planet, many were fiscal conservatives. Many are not profligate and irresponsible spenders. But those advocating this scheme at this time in the US are profligate, irresponsible spenders. No question about that one, is there? What happens in the future if a socialized health care plan is forced on the US against the wishes of the people of course is that in a few years, the dollar shrinks in value, interest rates skyrocket, and the government has to rein in expenses. Then you don't get much medical care at all, under the socialized Really, that should be obvious. |
13th March 2010, 08:03 AM | #453 |
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I'd put it another way:
This 16% of GDP is the average per capita spending on healthcare. In the UK, if I fall ill, my costs do not rise by very much because I have already paid in my taxes. Prescription charges are capped, and in many parts of the UK even hospital car parking is now free. In the US, if you fall ill, then your costs suddenly rocket. In other words we are comparing the average costs but in one system the costs rocket if you are ill, whilst in the other, they barely rise. And the system that is initially cheaper is actually far cheaper for anyone who actually needs healthcare.
Quote:
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OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
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13th March 2010, 08:06 AM | #454 |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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13th March 2010, 08:57 AM | #455 |
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I have to admit to seeing some arm waving on your part asserting relevance.
But I've seen no relevance. In JoobzWorld, we could point to some comparative spending numbers between countries and say: "SEE? They spend LESS than we do on XYZ. So they are BETTER!" with the non following corallary argument: "So that PROVES they are BETTER because they are SOCIALIZED". And that really does not work to convince...anybody. So can we get real now? Getting real would mean in part that you stop ducking and dodging the question about over spending that I've posed. Net effect, summed, is that there isn't any way to spend your childrens' money on health care today without your children having far less health care. |
13th March 2010, 09:02 AM | #456 |
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certainly. you can start by not strawmanning my argument.
Here is my argument for you: P1.) other nations pay less for healthcare. P2.) The quality of care is quite good. C.) UHC isn't not inherently expensive or poor quality. Secondly The reason our health care costs so much is because of free market forces. (i've explained this, and you've ignored it.). So, perhaps you can stop avoiding the issue and address the reality. Or, perhaps show a market system which provides a health care system that is better and is private. |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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13th March 2010, 11:59 AM | #457 |
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And why do you keep ignoring that those socialized countries have sacrificed higher per capita GDP and even higher disposable income to institute UHC type programs? There is a reason that the US per capita GDP greatly exceeds that of almost all UHC countries. There is a reason we have higher disposable income. There is a reason that the size of houses in the US, the size of cars, the cost of gas, and the cost of food, the cost of a hotel room is better in the US than in those UHC countries. And as I've demonstrated we more than make up for the extra cost in our health care system from the extra money we earn and keep because of not being as socialized as those countries.
And also, why do you keep ignoring the many differences that have been identified for why the per capita health care costs in the US are higher than UHC countries? You can't get there by simply passing a bill. To reduce costs in this country to those in UHC countries you are going to have to make the US like those countries. Fewer lawyers. Same diets. Same treatment of illegals. Even the same genetics in some cases. This health care bill that Obama and company are jamming down our throats through gimmicks and dishonesty isn't even going to lower costs. Even Durbin has admitted as much. So why can't you see it? |
13th March 2010, 12:04 PM | #458 |
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13th March 2010, 12:17 PM | #459 |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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14th March 2010, 05:14 AM | #460 |
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For what it's worth...
New CBO analysis says the Senate bill reduces the deficit. Still. http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezr..._the_sena.html |
14th March 2010, 07:31 AM | #461 |
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As usual, the comments immediately following Klein's warm Utopian vision are priceless. Just the first three suffice:
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14th March 2010, 10:29 PM | #462 |
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Really?
http://www.forbes.com/2009/05/05/uni...-quackery.html
Quote:
From http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2007/5/4/113029/9034 , I offer a great comparison of how real GDP per capita of several UHC nations (Canada, Italy, France, UK and Germany) compared to the US since the 1950s. http://www.eurotrib.com/files/3/0701...ries_50_06.gif Note that from 1950 to about the early 1960s or 1980s (depending on the country), the per capita GDP of all of these countries was catching up to that the the US. Then something happened … and you can trace that something to the adoption of more socialist thinking, as exemplified by the adoption of UHC, in each case (http://truecostblog.com/2009/08/09/c...hcare-by-date/ ). Italy adopted UHC in the 1978. Sure enough, about 1980 their per capita GDP started dropping relative to ours. The UK started UHC in the early 1948. As you can see, the UK's per capita GDP has languished relative to the US ever since 1950. Canada started its UHC system in 1966 (and it wasn't complete until 1972). Until the early 1970s Canada's per capita GDP was closing on the US. But it's been going down ever since. France started forming the basis of a UHC system in 1945 but it took decades for it to take shape. Universal coverage began in 1974. Sure enough, France's per capita GDP was closing on the US' until about 1974, then leveled off, and then started losing ground. Germany was the first country to move toward UHC back in 1883 but Germany's history has been so disjointed (by several world wars) that it's modern version essentially began right after WW2. But even then, the Cold War and reunification, and the way it was adopted piecemeal by small changes, made the transition to UHC more gradual than in other countries. Looks like that around 1980 their socialization became sufficient to reverse the trend in their per capita GDP relative to ours. How about Switzerland? That's another country that from time to time is suggested as a model for the US. Here is a comparison of the growth in per capita GDP since 1980: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...erland_usa.gif Notice Switzerland adopted UHC in 1994. Look at the slope change in their per capita GDP growth just before they adopted it. I guess even thinking about socialist notions can damage an economy. How about Japan? Here's how Japan's per capita GDP has compared to that of the US since 1945. http://futurist.typepad.com/my_weblo...per_capita.jpg As you can see, Japan was closing the gap until about 1965, then stopped closing the gap. Now the gap is widening again. Why? What happened? Well in 1961 Japan established UHC. http://www.law.harvard.edu/programs/...er%20Japan.pdf
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http://www.heritage.org/Research/Rep...e-a-Difference
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Here, from http://engram-backtalk.blogspot.com/...1_archive.html , is a look at the whole Euro area (the 13 countries that use the euro): http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_2-oDfgGpQK...Per+capita.jpg Since 1992 the GDP per capita PPP gap has been steadily widening. It's now twice what it was back in 1992. And here's an unemployment comparison between the euro area and the US: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_2-oDfgGpQK...employment.jpg Again, the US seems to consistently have much lower unemployment. Gee, do you think the reason could be … |
15th March 2010, 05:30 AM | #463 |
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I'd presume that the cause here is the net effect of higher levels of socialism in an economy, and it looks like you've proved that fairly well. It happens that the big chunk of that is the socialized chunk called "health care", but that wouldn't necessarily have to be the case.
This dovetails with the argument I have been making in an interesting way. I've said that the crushing future obligations we've already incurred are not sustainable, therefore it's really dumb to even think about incurring more. We are already headed for those higher rates of taxation such as the European countries have now, and that is without any more Utopian progressive schemes. Liberal progressives are trying to do a preemtive strike on the residual wealth of the future of the country, but seem either too dim witted to realize that it's already been spent multiple times, or clever enough to realize that although extra goods and services can't be squeezed from the turnip, additional control and power can be achieved through sleight of hand euphemistically called "universal health care". The latter may be the goal at the level of the administration, while the former is the case with gullible and naive followers of the Utopian faith. No answers to my question: Why under ObamaPowerControlGrabMedicalScamScheme, would everyone not just cancel their medical plans and pay the yearly penalty?But I have discovered a possible answer. The negative incentive to not cancel private insurance and pay the penalty could be if the public plan was extremely poor service - long lines, six month to two year waits, poor service. That would "cause the public option to work". In other words, for the Utopian option to "work", it has to be the grossly inferior option.... |
15th March 2010, 08:24 AM | #464 |
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15th March 2010, 08:46 AM | #465 |
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15th March 2010, 12:14 PM | #466 |
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That's a funny thing to reference. An article which looks at past 2 years of performance and claims that things in the us is much better.
http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=...AN:FRA:AUS:DEU Over a much wider window, there really isn't a dramatic difference between UHC nations and the US in terms of GDP growth. What seems to matter is what three year period you look at .
Originally Posted by BeAChooser;5719227
Let's look in more detail at a few countries. From [url and should we actually read the text of the article you quote, it exposes another VERY BIG problem with your %GDP/per capita comparison. You are asserting that this shows the average household in america having more wealth than the average household in other nations. The problem with this comparison is that it assumes median and average are nearly one and the same. However, The amount of wealth owned in the country by the top 0.1 % in the US in 2000 accounted for 6% of the total wealth, compared to that of other nations which was 2%. Which means that the average family in the US's wealth is much less than what is predicted by the GDP per capita. Are you trying to claim that UHC causes unemployment as well? Or are you merely trying to lump socialism with UHC and claim that a UHC will result in all of these "bad things"? bread lines,... |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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15th March 2010, 12:15 PM | #467 |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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15th March 2010, 12:28 PM | #468 |
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current us health care = 16%GDP.
next highest is 11%GDP. Facts have rendered your nattering moot. because then they wouldn't have any health coverage. That's why. They would be paying a penalty for putting the health care system at risk. If they were to get injured, we all have to make up for their inability to cover their own costs. (e.g., through increased hospital costs and therefore increased insurance premiums) By requiring nearly everyone to have coverage, we avoid the situation of people becoming medically bankrupt, which adds strain to our economy. Any other questions? |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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15th March 2010, 02:00 PM | #469 |
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There are several explanations for the greater GDP growth of the US than Europe in the 20th century. Universal healthcare isn't one of them. If you give any credence to the Laffer Curve (beloved of right-wing economists), you could argue that the current US system retards GDP growth by costing more in taxes than the UK system. There is an undoubted GDP-cost in inadequately treated medical conditions, which again would suggest that the US system is retarding GDP. West Germany did quite well, but absorbing East Germany with 16-million people in uncompetitive industries has been a burden on a country that was only 63-million at the time of unification. Japan is still paying the price for a huge speculative bubble that burst in the early 1990's until then it was considered to be very successful, more than the US. We are in the middle of the bursting of our speculative bubble, so it is a bit early to say which economy is doing better. There are several explanations as to why the US GDP growth was better than Europe's in the 20th Century. None of them are to do with the healthcare system. Firstly, the US was (and is) less densely populated than Western Europe (the East has its own issues). This means that development was easier. This has a direct impact on the cost of land, and the subsequent size of houses. Of course the average house in Utah is going to be larger than in the low countries, where for hundreds of years, the cost of land has been so high that reclaiming land from the sea has been economically viable. Secondly, the US is an single entity, and has been the largest unified market, with no exchange-rate losses between traders. The Euro is only a very recent addition. This large single market helps economic growth. Thirdly, the US had a good World War II, in economic terms. US industry grew to service the war, and it also had a very good Cold War. Again, this involved a lot of governmental spending. The UK was bankrupted by World War II, indeed it has only finished paying off the last of the Lend-lease loans in the last ten years. The Marshall plan helped a lot of Europe rebuild, but not the UK. There was a lot of devastation for the Marshall plan to repair, to say nothing of the killed and wounded, which came only a generation after World War I. Poor healthcare coverage only hinders the US economy. |
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OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
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15th March 2010, 02:06 PM | #470 |
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OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
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15th March 2010, 05:41 PM | #471 |
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You're displaying a reading comprehension problem again. My last post showed there is indeed a dramatic difference over a very wide window. That the gap between the US and the UHC nations in terms of per capita GDP is widening … and has been widening ever since each of the UHC countries that I examined began UHC. Prior to that, the gap in per capita GDP was closing.
I claimed no such such lag nor is there a 20 year lag in the effect of UHC on the economies of each of the cases I examined in the last post. In each case, within a few years of the inception of UHC, each economy responded by starting to fall behind the US again. What? You don't believe this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income I really tire of these debating tactics of yours, joobz. They seems to show up on every thread, once data appears that proves you wrong. I guess I'll have to ignore you some more because if I point out what I really think your tactics show ... |
15th March 2010, 05:59 PM | #472 |
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I plotted growth rates. Look at the slopes in the absolute gdp graphs. You'll see not much difference.
Hardly. by the numbers you gave, growth rate slow down occurred in the 60s, but germany and other nations began socialized care in the 40s. I do. But you understand the difference between "HOUSEHOLD" income and "PER Capita" right? Average household size in america is 2.59 while canada is 2.5 This makes the median percapita income $19,394. A Far cry from your percapita GDP you tried to use as an example of the average american wealth. By this analysis, Canada is at $17,600 per capita. This makes that difference in health care costs between Canada and US seem a lot more significant to the average person, don't you think? BAC, you do understand that the numbers are there for everyone to see, right? You do understand that you aren't fooling anyone but those who already want to beleive what you believe, right? I demonstrated the numbers about 16%GDP were accurate, and you were wrong. I exposed your logical inconsistency of 6 trillion and 2.3 trillion. I exposed your error with attempting to correlate $GDP/capita to individual wealth of the average person. I exposed the dishonesty in claiming that we can't compare nations regarding cost of healthcare. I have no need to do anything but point to the data. Your blatant self selection of information is your own worst enemy. not me. You keep claiming you're going to ignore me, but never seem to do so. Talk about debate tactics. |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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16th March 2010, 05:30 AM | #473 |
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But it's been widely noted that young people, used to not paying for health insurance, would on a self interest basis not get it and then pay the penalty when and if they needed it.
Your arguments are presented on the basis of people acting according to your scheme of common good in your scheme of socialist collectivism. But other people don't share your fantasy and couldn't care less about it. They are more interested in how much money they have left at the end of the month after expenses. So you've only dodged my question. Namely, it seems like everyone who could would opt out and just pay the penalty on an economic self interest basis. |
16th March 2010, 05:37 AM | #474 |
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Originally Posted by mhaze
Liberal progressives are trying to do a preemtive strike on the residual wealth of the future of the country, but seem either too dim witted to realize that it's already been spent multiple times, or clever enough to realize that although extra goods and services can't be squeezed from the turnip, additional control and power can be achieved through sleight of hand euphemistically called "universal health care". I'm moving toward agreeing with BeAChooser concerning your debate methods being ridiculous. There is no connection between your "facts" and the paragraph I wrote. None. Zip. Nada. |
16th March 2010, 06:44 AM | #475 |
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Some will very possibly. Those without coverage pay a tax penalty of the greater of $695 per year up to a maximum of three times that amount ($2,085) per family or 2.5% of household income.
No. My argument is based upon people's own self interests. Has nothing to do with your bizarre attempts at commie fear mongering. Using your reasoning, nobody would ever have insurance. That we would simply buy into insurance once we need it. But do you see what the problem with that? 1.) People do have health insurance. 2.) People who get sick without health insurance can't afford the insurance. Nope. "Those without coverage pay a tax penalty of the greater of $695 per year up to a maximum of three times that amount ($2,085) per family or 2.5% of household income. ." |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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16th March 2010, 06:51 AM | #476 |
Tergiversator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,998
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You went off on a silly libertarian rant, and I responded with actual facts. Facts that demonstrate our current private HCS is in worse shape than the "evil socialist" systems that exist around the world. Facts you have been ignoring and claiming aren't relevant. Couple this with Fran's post showing that there are systems of government that offer more economic freedom than the US AND have a form of socialized medicine, and it exposes even further the nonsense of your libertopian dreams.
You and BAC seem to dislike it when I present evidence, I wonder why? |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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16th March 2010, 07:00 AM | #477 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,742
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Watching someone trying to justify the US healthcare system is kind of weird. Its like watching someone explain to you why heavier than air flight is impossible. The existence proof simply has no effect on them.
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The road to Fascism is paved with people saying, "You're overreacting!". |
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16th March 2010, 07:19 AM | #478 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,189
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Random:
I'm with you. I found it especially humorous when they said a South American country was far more like the US than any European country. I find it quite telling how they dismiss any comparisons to other countries with UHC and make an individual argument why each one should not be considered as evidence for a successful UHC or why it is in no way comparable to what would happen in the US. It is as if the US is the one country in the world without any similar countries for comparison. I guess the US is so unique it defies comparison. |
16th March 2010, 07:37 AM | #479 |
Tergiversator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,998
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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16th March 2010, 08:05 AM | #480 |
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 15,718
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Because you haven't connected your purported "evidence" to the issue and have been called on it three times and still refuse to do so.
That's a silly and transparent debate tactic. Let's say... Junior High School level. Except that one of the signs that by your own admission you lost the argument is when you have to misrepresent your opponent's position to make your own seem to make sense. And that's what you've just done. What I did was simply question why the possible consequences of the US being duped into the socialist medical scam should not be compared with various South American countries, as well as with China and Russia. It simply seems to me that there's a bit of cherry picking going on by proponents of such scams, who keep pointing to one study and one batch of statistics. It became noticable that no one would back up the claim "these are the countries that are MOST LIKE the USA". Which frankly does not make sense, does it? |
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