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Tags food regulations , usda

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Old 24th March 2012, 12:32 PM   #41
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It's all in the name. "Pink slime" sounds gross. Call it "Steak 2.0" and people would pay extra for it.
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Old 24th March 2012, 12:35 PM   #42
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Back to the OP; I had never heard of the the term 'Pink slime'.
The only time I buy ground beef these days is when I am making chili, and that will be so loaded with peppers and other stuff that anything in there would be neutralized.
In fact; a friend suggested using tofu instead of beef. I tried it and couldn't really tell the difference.

V.
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Old 24th March 2012, 12:48 PM   #43
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re: ammonia, for perspective.

Quote:
Furthermore, small traces of either are not a health concern (indeed, in Europe some forms of liquorice have ammonium chloride added to give it a salty taste).
...
Also notice how dramatic he is in showing how “dangerous” the ammonia solution is. I wonder if he realizes that in a chemistry lab, his kitchen grade vinegar would be considered just as hazardous – I don’t see him calling for a ban on vinaigrettes.

source
lol
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Old 24th March 2012, 01:31 PM   #44
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When I was in college the students found out that they used fillers in the hamburger cooked in the cafeteria on campus. A bunch of students organized a protest. The cafeteria responded by a taste test and nearly 9 to 1 favored the fillers over the plain hamburger LOL oh well.
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Old 24th March 2012, 01:46 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Jekyll's Guest View Post
It's...hard to expleen.

Not so tough, just remove the stomach first, then expleen the carcass.
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Old 24th March 2012, 02:18 PM   #46
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So the problem here is that companies are using meat as a filler in meat products? I'm... a little confused about this.
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Old 24th March 2012, 02:32 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Until you discover what they use as fertilizer on organic vegetable farms...
Enter: E. Coli.
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Old 24th March 2012, 02:34 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
re: ammonia, for perspective.

lol
I had no idea salmiak is uncommon outside Northern Europe.

You guys don't know what you're missing!
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Old 24th March 2012, 02:56 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Sledge View Post
So the problem here is that companies are using meat as a filler in meat products? I'm... a little confused about this.
It depends on the definition of 'meat'.

I recall that certain chicken products in the UK were/are(?) made of 'reconstituted' or 'mechanically recovered' chicken. Things like Chicken Kiev with yummy butter+garlic filling. They were a large % mashed skin, cartilage, ligament and various dreks, with a certain % of actual muscle tissue.

Not what many would call 'meat', but there ya go The fact that it isn't fat doesn't mean it's actual meat, in my book.
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Old 24th March 2012, 03:04 PM   #50
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Well, in this case
Quote:
Myth 2:

“Boneless lean beef trimmings” or “lean finely textured beef” which have recently been called “pink slime,” are just “fillers” and not beef at all.
Fact:

As their real names suggest, boneless lean beef trimmings are 100% USDA inspected beef. Imagine trimming fat from a roast or steak. There’s always some meat that is trimmed with the fat. It is this meat, trimmed from the fat, which becomes boneless lean beef trimmings. When you compare the nutrition analysis of this lean beef with 90% lean/10% fat ground beef, they are virtually identical. That’s because boneless lean beef trim is beef – period.
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Old 24th March 2012, 03:05 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
It depends on the definition of 'meat'.

I recall that certain chicken products in the UK were/are(?) made of 'reconstituted' or 'mechanically recovered' chicken. Things like Chicken Kiev with yummy butter+garlic filling. They were a large % mashed skin, cartilage, ligament and various dreks, with a certain % of actual muscle tissue.

Not what many would call 'meat', but there ya go The fact that it isn't fat doesn't mean it's actual meat, in my book.
You know we're talking about beef, not chicken?
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Old 24th March 2012, 03:05 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
I had no idea salmiak is uncommon outside Northern Europe.

You guys don't know what you're missing!
I soon will thanks to the wonders of the internet and speedy international delivery service!
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Old 24th March 2012, 03:06 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Sledge View Post
So the problem here is that companies are using meat as a filler in meat products? I'm... a little confused about this.
Right, meat the same way rendering products are meat.
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Old 24th March 2012, 03:09 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
Well, in this case
It sounds good, until you ask yourself, if this is simply meat trimmings why can't they just grind it up like the rest of the hamburger is ground?

Isn't your logic skepdar going off?
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Old 24th March 2012, 03:16 PM   #55
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"Lean beef trimmings" does not mean meat which would be muscle tissue. Instead using the term, "lean beef", is carefully calculated to imply healthy meat. In reality the name is typical of Corporate Newspeak:
Quote:
When he coined the term "Pink Slime" to describe the unlabeled and unappetizing bits of cartilage and other chemically-treated scrap meat going into U.S. ground beef, Zirnstein was a microbiologist at the U.S. Department of Agriculture.
He made the slime reference to a fellow scientist in an internal - and he thought private - email. But that email later became public, and with it came an explosion of outrage from consumer groups.
Descriptions of a mix of fatty beef by-products and connective tissue, ground up and treated with ammonium hydroxide, then blended with ground beef have led the nation's largest supermarket chains to ban the product.
Cartilage and connective tissue explains the rubbery gristley texture I've been disgusted by and trying to figure out.
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Old 24th March 2012, 03:17 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It sounds good, until you ask yourself, if this is simply meat trimmings why can't they just grind it up like the rest of the hamburger is ground?

Isn't your logic skepdar going off?
Because then the meat would be mixed in with all of the other stuff... It's meat. It's the same molecular structure and nutritional analysis. My skepdar is fine but your snarker is out of whack
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Old 24th March 2012, 03:18 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
Because then the meat would be mixed in with all of the other stuff... It's meat. It's the same molecular structure and nutritional analysis. My skepdar is fine but your snarker is out of whack
I know we posted at the same time so I'll just point you to my last post.
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Old 24th March 2012, 03:30 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
"Lean beef trimmings" does not mean meat which would be muscle tissue. Instead using the term, "lean beef", is carefully calculated to imply healthy meat. In reality the name is typical of Corporate Newspeak:Cartilage and connective tissue explains the rubbery gristley texture I've been disgusted by and trying to figure out.
This quote is.

Quote:
Descriptions of a mix of fatty beef by-products and connective tissue, ground up and treated with ammonium hydroxide, then blended with ground beef have led the nation's largest supermarket chains to ban the product.
That has clearly happened. Where is the evidence that this is actually true?

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I know we posted at the same time so I'll just point you to my last post.
The forum software makes it quite difficult to miss a previous post, thankfully. If I post after you it pops your post on top of mine. If I click the correct button in subscriptions I will be taken to your post. Cheers.
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Old 24th March 2012, 03:40 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Cartilage and connective tissue explains the rubbery gristley texture I've been disgusted by and trying to figure out.
id wager the change in texture is due to something else, since ive never noticed any gristley texture in anything having pink slime in it
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Old 24th March 2012, 03:45 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Right, meat the same way rendering products are meat.
Go on...
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Old 24th March 2012, 03:51 PM   #61
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The independent market in my town has a sign up saying they've never put pink slime in their ground beef, and I'm pretty sure they do all their own ground meat processing on site, so they just might be telling the truth.


And as far as food products that gross me out are concerned, boudin noir is tops on my list. My mom used to cook it up for my dad at least once a month throughout my childhood years, just remembering the smell makes me shudder.
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Old 24th March 2012, 04:10 PM   #62
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Gee, what's in a name? Nothing misleading, why would anyone go out of their way to call something by a misleading name?

Advanced Meat Recovery
Quote:
Edible beef products derived from beef-fat trimmings include Finely Textured Beef (FTB), Lean Finely Textured Beef (LFTB), Premium Black Angus Finely Textured Beef (PBAFTB), Angus Finely Textured Beef (AFTB), Beef Trimmings, Finely Textured (BTFT) and Partially Defatted Chopped Beef (PDCB).[2][3][4]
Quote:
Product produced by advanced meat recovery machinery can be labeled using terms associated with hand-deboned product (e.g., "beef trimmings" and "ground beef"). ...

...Products that exceed the calcium content limit must be labeled "mechanically separated beef or pork" in the ingredients statement.
So hand-deboned appears to be an outright lie depending on the setting but maybe I'm missing something.

USDA Terminology
Quote:
"MEAT" DERIVED BY ADVANCED MEAT/BONE SEPARATION AND MEAT RECOVERY SYSTEMS:
The definition of "meat" was amended in December 1994 to include as "meat" product derived from advanced meat/bone separation machinery which is comparable in appearance, texture and composition to meat trimmings and similar meat products derived by hand. Product produced by advanced meat recovery (AMR) machinery can be labeled using terms associated with hand-deboned product, e.g., "beef" or "pork" trimmings and ground "beef" or "pork." The AMR machinery cannot grind, crush or pulverize bones to remove edible meat tissue and bones must emerge essentially intact. The meat produced in this manner can contain no more than 150 milligrams of calcium per 100 grams product. Product that exceeds the calcium content limit must be labeled "mechanically separated beef or pork."

MECHANICALLY SEPARATED MEAT
is a paste-like and batter-like meat product produced by forcing bones with attached edible meat under high pressure through a sieve or similar device to separate the bone from the edible meat tissue. In 1982, a final rule published by FSIS on mechanically separated meat said it was safe and established a standard of identity for the food product. Some restrictions were made on how much can be used and the type of products in which it can be used. These restrictions were based on concerns for limited intake of certain components in MSM, like calcium. Due to FSIS regulations enacted in 2004 to protect consumers against Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy, mechanically separated beef is considered inedible and is prohibited for use as human food. However, mechanically separated pork is permitted and must be labeled as "mechanically separated pork" in the ingredients statement.
Somehow "meat product" doesn't sound like "lean beef trimmings" in my mind.


Mind you, "pink slime" is also clearly intended to mislead.
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Old 24th March 2012, 04:28 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
I had no idea salmiak is uncommon outside Northern Europe.

You guys don't know what you're missing!
Inconceivable, isn't it?

And Dutch "doubly salty" liquorice may contain up to 8% ammonium chloride. I haven't yet heard of people dying from the stuff.
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Old 24th March 2012, 04:29 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So hand-deboned appears to be an outright lie depending on the setting but maybe I'm missing something.
yes, you are missing that "hand-deboned" is not used to describe the meat, the terms "beef trimmings" and "ground beef" are used

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Somehow "meat product" doesn't sound like "lean beef trimmings" in my mind.
ironically, in the USDA terminology you quoted, "meat product" is used to describe the hand deboned meat, not the AMR meat
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Old 24th March 2012, 05:26 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
That's news to you? Did you see the Food, Inc. documentary yet?

There is a great Jamie Oliver episode talking about the Green Slime - and to me it doesn't really look or sound all that tasty, to be honest.
He does one showing the children how chicken nuggets are made and they still want to eat it.

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Old 24th March 2012, 06:08 PM   #66
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I find it interesting that these sorts of things don't bother me at all. Frankly I find myself pleased that they use as much of the animal as possible, that seems like the right thing to do.

Then again I still remember the "horror movie" a vegan group showed us when I was in college. I had already seen or heard of most of the things they were showing and just sat there explaining it to other students. The part where they were using a cauterizing knife to cut off chickens' beaks was particularly interesting. Most people don't realize how vicious chickens can be to each other, they don't call it a "pecking order" for nothing!
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Old 24th March 2012, 06:13 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by defaultdotxbe View Post
yes, you are missing that "hand-deboned" is not used to describe the meat, the terms "beef trimmings" and "ground beef" are used


ironically, in the USDA terminology you quoted, "meat product" is used to describe the hand deboned meat, not the AMR meat
What's your concern here? That "meat product" and "AMR meat" are not the same?

What I'm saying is the industry is doing a number on the public trying to disguise what this stuff is behind slick labeling.

From the USDA definition: "Product produced by advanced meat recovery (AMR) machinery can be labeled using terms associated with hand-deboned product, e.g., "beef" or "pork" trimmings and ground "beef" or "pork."

So where in all that does "lean beef trimmings" really tell you what the heck the stuff is?
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Old 24th March 2012, 06:13 PM   #68
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If you want to eat pink slime don't go to McDonalds because they don't serve it even though an email that is going around says they do.
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Old 24th March 2012, 06:15 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Weak Kitten View Post
I find it interesting that these sorts of things don't bother me at all. Frankly I find myself pleased that they use as much of the animal as possible, that seems like the right thing to do.
I wouldn't care so much if I hadn't been trying for years to find hamburger that didn't taste rubbery to me and wondering what was different about it.

I'd rather they just made dog food out of the 'lean beef trimmings'. My dogs don't care.
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Old 24th March 2012, 06:23 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
What's your concern here? That "meat product" and "AMR meat" are not the same?
whats your concern? you said "meat product" doesnt sound like "lean beef trimmings" i assumed you meant that "meat product" sounded less appetizing
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Old 24th March 2012, 07:48 PM   #71
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Until you discover what they use as fertilizer on organic vegetable farms...
Don't forget to mention the pesticides.

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Old 24th March 2012, 07:51 PM   #72
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It's...hard to expleen.
oh bad


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Old 24th March 2012, 07:52 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
There is a great Jamie Oliver episode talking about the Green Slime - and to me it doesn't really look or sound all that tasty, to be honest.
To the camera, he describes the meat trimmings as ****, as in "get rid of that ****". Good to see him maintaining an unbiased and professional approach to the issue right from the start.

He shoves buckets of meat trimmings in peoples faces to get camera shots of their disgusted reactions. Of course, you could get the same disgusted reaction by presenting them with buckets of kidneys in the same conditions. That wouldn't be any reason not to eat a steak-and-kidney pie.

Around 2:12 he says "Now first things first, this is how I imagine the process to be". Imagine? That hardly inspires confidence.

Then he puts the meat in a front-loading washing machine. I don't have a problem with that, he makes it clear that they don't actually put the meat in a washing machine, that he's just using it to represent a centrifuge.

It seems a good idea to me, using a centrifuge to separate meat from fat instead of letting it go to waste. If you're just going to use the meat for hamburger, who cares if the process results in it getting squished to mush?

Then there's the ammonia. He pulls out a big bottle labelled "Ammonia" with a giant skull and crossbones on it, and pours it into the meat. (Where do you even find a bottle of ammonia that looks like that?) And then pours water into the meat, claiming they mix the ammonia with water, but he doesn't know the exact proportions. Then he mixes it all together, drains it an grinds it, and presents the result as what comes out of the factory.

But first off, ammonia is a gas, and the liquid ammonia you buy at the shops consists of ammonia gas that's been dissolved in water. So there's no need to add water to the ammonia he's using, it's already mixed.

And according to Wikipedia they use ammonia gas in the process. They don't use ammonia dissolved in water, or any water at all. There's nothing to drain from the meat because it's gas. What he shows us would leave significant quantities of liquid ammonia in the meat, which would likely be harmful to eat. But the real process would leave only trace amounts. And there's already trace amounts of ammonia all around us, in rainwater, seawater, in plants, etc.

So I still don't see the problem.

The whole thing appears to be more of an appeal to emotion, rather than any rational objection.

(And why even refer to it as "slime" if not for emotional reasons? The product he presents to the audience doesn't resemble slime to me.)

Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Until you discover what they use as fertilizer on organic vegetable farms...
Compost.

(And manure.)
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Old 24th March 2012, 08:08 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by defaultdotxbe View Post
whats your concern? you said "meat product" doesnt sound like "lean beef trimmings" i assumed you meant that "meat product" sounded less appetizing
My point was the industry label of 'lean beef trimmings' is a marketing lie. My concern is I've been bothered by hamburger texture for years and I think this may be the reason.
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Old 24th March 2012, 08:59 PM   #75
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Btw, isn't Pink Slime what gave the Teenage Gay Ninja Turtles their powers?
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Old 24th March 2012, 09:48 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
My point was the industry label of 'lean beef trimmings' is a marketing lie. My concern is I've been bothered by hamburger texture for years and I think this may be the reason.
how so? it is composed of trimmings of beef that are 90-95% lean

considering that the AMR process removes the meat and fat from the bone and connective tissue i doubt your perceived change in texture is related, unlike mechanically separated meat (which is required to be labeled separately and is in fact not USDA-approved for beef) there is no gristle in it.

where have you had problems with texture? earlier in the thread you seemed to indicate the problem beef came from a single store, and you had no problem with meat from a different store
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Old 24th March 2012, 09:54 PM   #77
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It's not GROUND BEEF really now is it? A piece of whole beef was not taken and put through a grinder. Where in the process did any grinding take place? It was boiled, spun, meat parts salvaged, spayed with ammonia gas, MUSHED and frozen. Perhaps our USDA should require ground beef with LFTB (Lean Finely Textured Beef) filler added to be labeled ground beef and salvaged, ammonia treated, meat mush. yum :/ 'Nutritious' too!

Quote:
"department microbiologist, Gerald Zirnstein, called the processed beef "pink slime" in a 2002 e-mail message to colleagues and said, “I do not consider the stuff to be ground beef, and I consider allowing it in ground beef to be a form of fraudulent labeling.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/31/us...ewanted=1&_r=1
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Old 24th March 2012, 10:04 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Draca View Post
It's not GROUND BEEF really now is it? A piece of whole beef was not taken and put through a grinder. Where in the process did any grinding take place? It was boiled, spun, meat parts salvaged, spayed with ammonia gas, MUSHED and frozen. Perhaps our USDA should require ground beef with LFTB (Lean Finely Textured Beef) filler added to be labeled ground beef and salvaged, ammonia treated, meat mush. yum :/ 'Nutritious' too!




http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/31/us...ewanted=1&_r=1
Quote:
grind, verb (used with object)

2. to reduce to fine particles, as by pounding or crushing;
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/grind

Quote:
beef, noun

1. the flesh of a cow, steer, or bull raised and killed for its meat.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/beef?s=t



looks to meet the definition of "ground beef" to me
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Old 24th March 2012, 10:27 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Joey McGee
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Quote:
I am an Agricultural Engineer, this is my field. Meat is a fundamentally expensive product to produce, so processors look for any cost savings they can find. These filler materials are quite a normal thing in industry. You cannot get sick from this, chances are you have eaten this before and you are only grossed out because you know what is in it. I guarantee everybody that if you really knew what was in your products, and how they were manufactured (from make-up, food, soaps, and even pharmaceutics), you would never touch them again. Either get over it, kill it yourself or go without.

I'm all for transparency about products, how they are made and where they come from. That seems to be the only legitimate issue.

Your quote above doesn't even call it ground beef. They call it a filler. No one goes to the store to buy beef filler to make gringo tacos. It is not ground beef. It is a salvaged product. It is edible but there should be full disclosure. I would never purposely buy it.


Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
What a dog is meant to be fed? So evolution shaped that meat in those places in cows for humans to feed to their dogs? No, that's a fearmongering, baseless argument.

http://beefisbeef.com/2012/03/15/top...of-pink-slime/

At a time when food issues are looming as a serious challenge to human health in the next few decades, this kind of campaign is what is disgusting. I'll change my mind if there is a real case presented.
Originally Posted by shadron View Post
"nutritionally poisoned" is a non-sequitur. It is either nutritional or not, but in neither case is it poisoned. Dogs need nutrition just like the rest of us animals do, and they seem to live on it well enough, so it is neither non-nutritional nor poison.

An owner of a prized Siberian husky for a dog sled team is going to feed their dog a diet of pure meat, brown rice and vegetables. A good owner would never feed their dog mush like LFTB. If they want the most from their dogs they will go with the highest quality food they can. Why are people treated with less respect? Adding 10-15% low quality filler to protein can not be good for health.

You have a good point about world food sources. The world is already over-populated imo. LFTB is protein and calories. I don't think it is optimum for anyone, but would certainly be better than starving, although beans are a cheap and nutritious protein that would be a better alternative. Above all I think it should be labeled on any product it is added to. Give people the choice. The USDA hid this from the American public for a reason. They sold the public out.
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Old 24th March 2012, 10:36 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by defaultdotxbe View Post

Cool, I can use a dictionary also!

ground beef

noun
beef that has been ground

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ground+beef


Looks like "pink slime" DOES NOT qualify as "ground beef" to me.
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