FREE TAPATALK APP

Farsight · 31st December 2012, 04:48 AM

Originally Posted by blobru

Haven't you pointed to the "line" in your previous comment, though? In general terms, if "you" are the activity of a physical system, then anything which disrupts the system so much its activity (you) can no longer be sustained would be over the line.

Sounds fair enough blobru.

Originally Posted by blobru

You need simply note that perfect copies are never completely identical (according to physicalism, that is). Position is a physical property, so copies always differ in that at least. Which is enough to establish that they are different, even if their experiences are identical. Objectivity trumps subjectivity (under physicalism).

I don't think that gets to the heart of the issue. The difference between me and the copy isn't down to position, it's that I'm looking out of my eyes. But I can't prove this in any objective way to you. It's subjective.

Originally Posted by dlorde

OK, so despite the replacement parts being identical to the parts replaced, and you feeling no discernable difference between before and after, you feel that whatever the amount replaced, you're losing some of yourself?

No. I was talking about some kind of wound where you lose some percentage of your body. The more you lose, the less happy you feel about it. Particularly if you can't grow it back.

Originally Posted by dlorde

Does this apply with the natural replacement that occurs during everyday life?

No. I'm happy about that.

Originally Posted by dlorde

Do you feel you're losing more and more of yourself as time goes on?

Not at all.

Originally Posted by dlorde

Sure, I realise that. I'm trying to explore the rational boundaries of this thing, but not getting much response.

Because consciousness is a "hard" problem. Nobody can give a clear explanation of the subjective experience that makes life so precious, and nobody can give objective evidence to support it.

dlorde · 31st December 2012, 07:53 AM

Originally Posted by Farsight

No. I was talking about some kind of wound where you lose some percentage of your body. The more you lose, the less happy you feel about it. Particularly if you can't grow it back.

Ah, OK. It would have saved time if you'd said you were answering my question with an answer to a different scenario...

Quote:

Because consciousness is a "hard" problem. Nobody can give a clear explanation of the subjective experience that makes life so precious, and nobody can give objective evidence to support it.

I wasn't asking for objective evidence, I was asking about how you, for example, would rationalise the feelings you have about the scenario I proposed (if, indeed, you would).

Never mind.

blobru · 31st December 2012, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by Farsight

-I don't think that gets to the heart of the issue. The difference between me and the copy isn't down to position, it's that I'm looking out of my eyes. But I can't prove this in any objective way to you. It's subjective.

Yes, it's our unique subjectivity that we value. Position only demonstrates that you are unique.

Farsight · 31st December 2012, 01:15 PM

And yet we can't trust our subjectivity. I learned this a few years back via illusions like The Big Spanish Castle.

dlorde: please restate the scenario or link to it.

31st December 2012, 07:53 AM	#602
dlorde Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,654	Originally Posted by Farsight No. I was talking about some kind of wound where you lose some percentage of your body. The more you lose, the less happy you feel about it. Particularly if you can't grow it back. Ah, OK. It would have saved time if you'd said you were answering my question with an answer to a different scenario... Quote: Because consciousness is a "hard" problem. Nobody can give a clear explanation of the subjective experience that makes life so precious, and nobody can give objective evidence to support it. I wasn't asking for objective evidence, I was asking about how you, for example, would rationalise the feelings you have about the scenario I proposed (if, indeed, you would). Never mind.
dlorde Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,654	__________________ Simple probability tells us that we should expect coincidences, and simple psychology tells us that we'll remember the ones we notice... Last edited by dlorde; 31st December 2012 at 07:56 AM.

31st December 2012, 12:54 PM	#603
blobru Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 6,612	Originally Posted by Farsight -I don't think that gets to the heart of the issue. The difference between me and the copy isn't down to position, it's that I'm looking out of my eyes. But I can't prove this in any objective way to you. It's subjective. Yes, it's our unique subjectivity that we value. Position only demonstrates that you are unique.
blobru Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 6,612	__________________ "Say to them, 'I am Nobody!'" -- Ulysses to the Cyclops "Never mind. I can't read." -- Hokulele to the Easter Bunny

31st December 2012, 04:48 AM	#601
Farsight Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole, UK Posts: 2,006	Originally Posted by blobru Haven't you pointed to the "line" in your previous comment, though? In general terms, if "you" are the activity of a physical system, then anything which disrupts the system so much its activity (you) can no longer be sustained would be over the line. Sounds fair enough blobru. Originally Posted by blobru You need simply note that perfect copies are never completely identical (according to physicalism, that is). Position is a physical property, so copies always differ in that at least. Which is enough to establish that they are different, even if their experiences are identical. Objectivity trumps subjectivity (under physicalism). I don't think that gets to the heart of the issue. The difference between me and the copy isn't down to position, it's that I'm looking out of my eyes. But I can't prove this in any objective way to you. It's subjective. Originally Posted by dlorde OK, so despite the replacement parts being identical to the parts replaced, and you feeling no discernable difference between before and after, you feel that whatever the amount replaced, you're losing some of yourself? No. I was talking about some kind of wound where you lose some percentage of your body. The more you lose, the less happy you feel about it. Particularly if you can't grow it back. Originally Posted by dlorde Does this apply with the natural replacement that occurs during everyday life? No. I'm happy about that. Originally Posted by dlorde Do you feel you're losing more and more of yourself as time goes on? Not at all. Originally Posted by dlorde Sure, I realise that. I'm trying to explore the rational boundaries of this thing, but not getting much response. Because consciousness is a "hard" problem. Nobody can give a clear explanation of the subjective experience that makes life so precious, and nobody can give objective evidence to support it.

31st December 2012, 01:15 PM	#604
Farsight Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole, UK Posts: 2,006	And yet we can't trust our subjectivity. I learned this a few years back via illusions like The Big Spanish Castle. dlorde: please restate the scenario or link to it.