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Old 24th September 2009, 03:12 PM   #121
mijopaalmc
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Originally Posted by Southwind17 View Post
You're showing your ignorance here.
You just broke my irony meter.

Originally Posted by Southwind17 View Post
Card counting has absolutely nothing to do with hold 'em/fold 'em, but has everything to do with how much to bet.
Betting strategies are not cheating.

How much would you bet on a two-pair hand in draw poker?

Originally Posted by Southwind17 View Post
Stick to what you know.
Follow your own advice.

Last edited by mijopaalmc; 24th September 2009 at 03:15 PM.
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Old 24th September 2009, 03:36 PM   #122
sol invictus
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Originally Posted by Southwind17 View Post
You're showing your ignorance here. Card counting has absolutely nothing to do with hold 'em/fold 'em, but has everything to do with how much to bet. Stick to what you know.
Actually it does have to do with that, although variations in betting are more important. When you count you adjust your playing strategy a bit depending on the count.

Originally Posted by mijopaalmc View Post
Betting strategies are not cheating.
Southwind's definition of "cheating" is "anything which gives the edge to the player". I'm not making that up, that really is what he means by it.
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Old 24th September 2009, 04:08 PM   #123
mijopaalmc
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Originally Posted by sol invictus View Post
Southwind's definition of "cheating" is "anything which gives the edge to the player". I'm not making that up, that really is what he means by it.
Yeah, I sorta figured that out from his posts.

I also noticed that he didn't respond to the central argumetn of my post: that card counting isn't cheating because it isn't based of information that was obtained by breaking the rules of the game. Anyone can see what the face-up cards are. Card counting is just a way of making an educated guess as to what the face-down cards are based of what the face-up cards are and what the face-up cards have been in other games. The educated guess then informs one's betting decisions, just like the cards in the river inform one's betting decisions in hold-'em poker.

If one knew what the face-down cards or the cards still in the deck were, one would be cheating, because, according to the rules of the game, on is not supposed to have that knowledge.

I don't understand why Southwind17 is failing to make this distinction.
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Old 24th September 2009, 10:57 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Towlie View Post
Card counting is legal anywhere in the USA, and in Atlantic City it's even illegal for casinos to bar card counters. They have to let you play even if they know what you're doing.
Out of interest, how do Atlantic City's laws define card counting? Is it, for example, illegal to ban a card counter who uses more than his memory?
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Old 24th September 2009, 11:54 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by mijopaalmc View Post
Betting strategies are not cheating.
I agree. Always have done.

Originally Posted by mijopaalmc View Post
How much would you bet on a two-pair hand in draw poker?
I don't play draw poker. But regardless, what does that question have to do with card counting?

Originally Posted by sol invictus View Post
Actually it does have to do with that, although variations in betting are more important. When you count you adjust your playing strategy a bit depending on the count.
Go ahead - split hairs if you will.

Originally Posted by sol invictus View Post
Southwind's definition of "cheating" is "anything which gives the edge to the player". I'm not making that up, that really is what he means by it.
For all intents and purposes of casino operating, yes, that's right.

Originally Posted by mijopaalmc View Post
I also noticed that he didn't respond to the central argumetn of my post: that card counting isn't cheating because it isn't based of information that was obtained by breaking the rules of the game.
"The rules of the game" - here we go. I don't recall, when I first learned to play blackjack, or when I check out a casino's application of the variables to the basic rules of blackjack, an exhaustive list of "cheats". In fact, I don't recall any information on "cheats". You have a blackjack book, do you, containing a rules section that says:
  1. Thou shalt not sneakily peek at thy neighbours' cards
  2. Thou shalt not thumb through the deck cards
  3. Thou shalt not collude with "watchers" circulating the casino
  4. Thou shalt not use a mechanical card-counting device.
  5. Etc.

Originally Posted by mijopaalmc View Post
Anyone can see what the face-up cards are. Card counting is just a way of making an educated guess as to what the face-down cards are based of what the face-up cards are and what the face-up cards have been in other games. The educated guess then informs one's betting decisions, just like the cards in the river inform one's betting decisions in hold-'em poker.
"Informs one's betting decisions". Please make up your mind. Before you claimed:
Originally Posted by mijopaalmc View Post
I don't understand what the big deal is here. Since when did knowing when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em become cheating? Card counting just gives a better idea of when to do that.
And as for:
Originally Posted by mijopaalmc View Post
It doesn't alter the probability with which one is dealt the cards ...
So, assuming, for argument's sake, a blackjack game in which, by card counting, the point count (10s vs. non-10s) has reached, say, +20, i.e. the deck is "rich" in 10s, you're claiming that the probability of receiving a 10 on the next hand is exactly the same as it was when receiving the first hand after the shuffle? Mmm ... interesting take on probability theory.

Originally Posted by mijopaalmc View Post
... and it doesn't give one any knowledge that one is not supposed to have according the rules of the game.
Ah ... "the rules of the game", again.

Originally Posted by mijopaalmc View Post
If one knew what the face-down cards or the cards still in the deck were, one would be cheating, because, according to the rules of the game, on is not supposed to have that knowledge.
... and again. Presumably this is Rule 7:
7. Thou shalt not look at other players' face-down cards or thumb through the deck cards, because thou is forbaden from beholding such knowledge and, pursuant to Rule 15, shall be struck down with fire from hell if thou is caught trying.

Originally Posted by mijopaalmc View Post
I don't understand why Southwind17 is failing to make this distinction.
If your beef is that your definition of cheating differs from mine let's just agree to disagree (after all, I did clearly acknowledge that card counting being classed as cheating is arguable in my very first post in this thread). My point is that, for all intents and purposes to running a casino floor, it's looked upon as cheating, because it is contra to the basic tenet of operating a casino for profit. Presumably the casinos that you, clearly, frequent permit blackjack players to manually record the exposed cards during a game, like they do for roulette?
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Old 25th September 2009, 07:28 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Southwind17 View Post
Go ahead - split hairs if you will.
So when you contradict someone and declare "card counting has nothing to do with hold 'em/fold 'em" and I tell you you're wrong, which you are, that's "splitting hairs". OK.

Quote:
So, assuming, for argument's sake, a blackjack game in which, by card counting, the point count (10s vs. non-10s) has reached, say, +20, i.e. the deck is "rich" in 10s, you're claiming that the probability of receiving a 10 on the next hand is exactly the same as it was when receiving the first hand after the shuffle? Mmm ... interesting take on probability theory.
That's not what mijo said. S/he said "It doesn't alter the probability with which one is dealt the cards" which is absolutely correct.

But that's "splitting hairs" again, I suppose?
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Old 25th September 2009, 07:57 AM   #127
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A quick question for you guys- Don't the casinos use a 5 deck shoe to impede card counting? Is unaided counting still effective under these conditions?
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Old 25th September 2009, 08:51 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Southwind17 View Post
I agree. Always have done.
Except that you have implied that strategies that have a positive expectation for the gambler are cheating.

Originally Posted by Southwind17 View Post
I don't play draw poker. But regardless, what does that question have to do with card counting?
You betting decisions in any card game are informed by what you think the other players' hands are. In casino blackjack, this is just easier to figure out because, the previous hands are usually not returned to the deck immediately nor is the deck shuffled after every hand.

So why is something that is allowed is every other card game forbidden is blackjack?

Originally Posted by Southwind17 View Post
For all intents and purposes of casino operating, yes, that's right.
"Bad for the profit margin"≠"Cheating".

Originally Posted by Southwind17 View Post
"The rules of the game" - here we go. I don't recall, when I first learned to play blackjack, or when I check out a casino's application of the variables to the basic rules of blackjack, an exhaustive list of "cheats". In fact, I don't recall any information on "cheats". You have a blackjack book, do you, containing a rules section that says:
  1. Thou shalt not sneakily peek at thy neighbours' cards
  2. Thou shalt not thumb through the deck cards
  3. Thou shalt not collude with "watchers" circulating the casino
  4. Thou shalt not use a mechanical card-counting device.
  5. Etc.
Again, you are only supposed to have certain knowledge of the face-up cards. How is making an inference as what the face-down cards might be cheating?

Originally Posted by Southwind17 View Post
Originally Posted by mijopaalmc View Post
Anyone can see what the face-up cards are. Card counting is just a way of making an educated guess as to what the face-down cards are based of what the face-up cards are and what the face-up cards have been in other games. The educated guess then informs one's betting decisions, just like the cards in the river inform one's betting decisions in hold-'em poker.
"Informs one's betting decisions". Please make up your mind. Before you claimed:
Originally Posted by mijopaalmc View Post
I don't understand what the big deal is here. Since when did knowing when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em become cheating? Card counting just gives a better idea of when to do that.
The two comments say the same thing: card counting "informs one's betting decisions" by "giv[ing one] a better idea of when to [when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em]". Having a strategy for "when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em" is not cheating; it's called good gambling.

Originally Posted by Southwind17 View Post
And as for:
Originally Posted by mijopaalmc View Post
It doesn't alter the probability with which one is dealt the cards ...
So, assuming, for argument's sake, a blackjack game in which, by card counting, the point count (10s vs. non-10s) has reached, say, +20, i.e. the deck is "rich" in 10s, you're claiming that the probability of receiving a 10 on the next hand is exactly the same as it was when receiving the first hand after the shuffle? Mmm ... interesting take on probability theory.
As sol invictus pointed out, you are completely misinterpreting what I said. It is the dealing of the cards (i.e., normal game-play) that changes the probability of what cards will be dealt. Card counting is just a way of calculating that probability using information that is available to all players, according to the rules of the game.

Originally Posted by Southwind17 View Post
Ah ... "the rules of the game", again.
Yeah, do you know what they are?

Originally Posted by Southwind17 View Post
Originally Posted by mijopaalmc View Post
If one knew what the face-down cards or the cards still in the deck were, one would be cheating, because, according to the rules of the game, on is not supposed to have that knowledge.
... and again. Presumably this is Rule 7:
7. Thou shalt not look at other players' face-down cards or thumb through the deck cards, because thou is forbaden from beholding such knowledge and, pursuant to Rule 15, shall be struck down with fire from hell if thou is caught trying.
Do you actually know how to play blackjack?

Originally Posted by Southwind17 View Post
If your beef is that your definition of cheating differs from mine let's just agree to disagree (after all, I did clearly acknowledge that card counting being classed as cheating is arguable in my very first post in this thread).
My "beef" is that you are using a definition of "cheating" that no-one else is the world uses and then treating people like they are stupid to disagree with you.

Originally Posted by Southwind17 View Post
My point is that, for all intents and purposes to running a casino floor, it's looked upon as cheating, because it is contra to the basic tenet of operating a casino for profit.
Card counting is bad for the casino's profit margin, which is not the same thing as cheating.

Originally Posted by Southwind17 View Post
Presumably the casinos that you, clearly, frequent permit blackjack players to manually record the exposed cards during a game, like they do for roulette?
First, I don't frequent casino.

Second, recording the face-up cards only helps if the shoe has not been reshuffled. In other words, if one play enough games, the probability of certain hands being dealt becomes statistically independent.

Last edited by mijopaalmc; 25th September 2009 at 08:55 AM.
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Old 25th September 2009, 10:49 AM   #129
Southwind17
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Originally Posted by mijopaalmc View Post
First, I don't frequent casino.
Why am I not surprised?

Originally Posted by mijopaalmc View Post
Second, recording the face-up cards only helps if the shoe has not been reshuffled. In other words, if one play enough games, the probability of certain hands being dealt becomes statistically independent.
Neat dodge. But: "recording the face-up cards only helps if the shoe has not been reshuffled". So around, say, 25-30% of the time then (I assume you're referring to blackjack)? Is that statistically insignificant?! And: "if one play enough games, the probability of certain hands being dealt becomes statistically independent." You mean the more the shoe is depleted the less one can deduce about the statistical probablilty of future hands?
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Old 25th September 2009, 10:56 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
A quick question for you guys- Don't the casinos use a 5 deck shoe to impede card counting? Is unaided counting still effective under these conditions?
8-deck, sometimes. And yes, that's exactly why casinos use multiple decks. Of course, re-shuffling after typically 25% depletion compounds the counter-measure. Essentially, card counting on an 8-card deck is pointless, unless you have exceptional mental stamina, the attention span of a gold fish and don't intend to become wealthly playing blackjack (or having fun)! BTW - a mechanical counting device would hardly help matters.
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Old 25th September 2009, 11:03 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by sol invictus View Post
So when you contradict someone and declare "card counting has nothing to do with hold 'em/fold 'em" and I tell you you're wrong, which you are, that's "splitting hairs". OK.
Let's recap:
Originally Posted by sol invictus View Post
Actually it does have to do with that, although variations in betting are more important. When you count you adjust your playing strategy a bit depending on the count.
You see why I consider you pedantic, and now a hair splitter? Or by "a bit" do you really mean "a significant bit", in other words maybe the width of, say, three, or maybe even four, hairs?!
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Old 25th September 2009, 11:40 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
A quick question for you guys- Don't the casinos use a 5 deck shoe to impede card counting? Is unaided counting still effective under these conditions?
Five deck games are rare, but most of my playing has been against six decks, and I've even played with an edge against eight decks.

Shoe games tend to have more liberal rules, such as double down on any two cards, double after split, and late surrender. Also, blackjack pays the traditional 3:2 in a shoe game as opposed to the relatively new 6:5 payoff in single-deck games. Shoe games are also dealt face-up, making them easier to count.

The three main keys to whether a shoe game is playable are penetration, allowed betting spread, and the strategy of "Wonging".

Penetration refers to the placement of the cut card (a blank, colored card) in the pack by the dealer after the shuffle and cut. When the cut card comes out of the shoe, it's an indication to the dealer to shuffle before the next round. Dealers tend to place the cut card far back in the pack to minimize shuffling, but the casinos know that the farther back the cut card is placed, the more effective card counting is. Because shuffling wastes time and makes no money for the casino, they have to strike a compromise in where they tell their dealers to place the cut card. If they're worried about card counters then their games will have poor penetration, but if they aren't, and they want to maximize rounds to maximize profits, they'll allow good penetration.

Allowed betting spread is critical to shoe games if you intend to sit for long sessions at one table. If the casino won't let you vary your bet by a large amount between successive hands, you may not be able to achieve an edge. However, many casinos believe that their shoe games are immune to card counting and concern themselves with betting spreads only in their single- and double-deck games.

Finally, "Wonging" is a technique popularized by Stanford WongWP (I met him once) for use in shoe games. If you're free to hop from one table to another and to watch games in progress without playing, you don't even need to use a betting spread. You can jump into shoe games with a standard bet whenever the count is good. This is a great technique for large blackjack pits where there are empty seats at many of the tables.

Sorry. It was "a quick question", but this didn't turn out to be a quick answer!
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Old 25th September 2009, 11:59 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Southwind17 View Post
Interesting. Care to explain how these (hidden computers to beat roulette) work (successfully)?
Originally Posted by Southwind17 View Post
Out of interest, how do Atlantic City's laws define card counting? Is it, for example, illegal to ban a card counter who uses more than his memory?
I've noticed how you're right there with strong contrary opinions on everything, yet you never seem willing to do any research of your own.
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Old 25th September 2009, 12:36 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Towlie View Post
I've noticed how you're right there with strong contrary opinions on everything, yet you never seem willing to do any research of your own.
And I've noticed that you're such a mine of information, so why should I waste my time doing research when you have all of the answers at your fingertips?
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Old 25th September 2009, 01:03 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Towlie View Post
I've noticed how you're right there with strong contrary opinions on everything, yet you never seem willing to do any research of your own.
That's pretty much par for the course for Southwind17. After, s/he once claimed that Zeno's paradox disproved the existence of infinity.
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Old 25th September 2009, 02:59 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Towlie View Post
Five deck games are rare, but most of my playing has been against six decks, and I've even played with an edge against eight decks.

Shoe games tend to have more liberal rules, such as double down on any two cards, double after split, and late surrender. Also, blackjack pays the traditional 3:2 in a shoe game as opposed to the relatively new 6:5 payoff in single-deck games. Shoe games are also dealt face-up, making them easier to count.

The three main keys to whether a shoe game is playable are penetration, allowed betting spread, and the strategy of "Wonging".

Penetration refers to the placement of the cut card (a blank, colored card) in the pack by the dealer after the shuffle and cut. When the cut card comes out of the shoe, it's an indication to the dealer to shuffle before the next round. Dealers tend to place the cut card far back in the pack to minimize shuffling, but the casinos know that the farther back the cut card is placed, the more effective card counting is. Because shuffling wastes time and makes no money for the casino, they have to strike a compromise in where they tell their dealers to place the cut card. If they're worried about card counters then their games will have poor penetration, but if they aren't, and they want to maximize rounds to maximize profits, they'll allow good penetration.

Allowed betting spread is critical to shoe games if you intend to sit for long sessions at one table. If the casino won't let you vary your bet by a large amount between successive hands, you may not be able to achieve an edge. However, many casinos believe that their shoe games are immune to card counting and concern themselves with betting spreads only in their single- and double-deck games.

Finally, "Wonging" is a technique popularized by Stanford WongWP (I met him once) for use in shoe games. If you're free to hop from one table to another and to watch games in progress without playing, you don't even need to use a betting spread. You can jump into shoe games with a standard bet whenever the count is good. This is a great technique for large blackjack pits where there are empty seats at many of the tables.

Sorry. It was "a quick question", but this didn't turn out to be a quick answer!
Thanks, that was educational. In my limited understanding of counting, if you are able to maintain a "position" in your head, plus or minus on face cards, or whatever it is, even a shoe would be countable, so it makes sense they would have to shuffle early.
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Old 25th September 2009, 11:54 PM   #137
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Not that this is directly related to your question on the above quoted research but as it deals with coin flipping probabilities.. I thought I'd share it.

"At the start of each semester, Deborah Nolan teaches her elementary statistics students a basic, bilateral lesson in life: that it's really hard to look accidental on purpose; and, on the flip-side of the same coin, that randomness can look suspiciously rigged. And what better way to prove her point than by flipping coins.

Nolan divides her class of 65 or so students into two groups. The members of one group are told to take a coin and flip it 100 times; recording the results of each toss on a piece of paper. The other students are told to imagine tossing the coin 100 times and to write down what they think the outcome would be. After signing their work with a mark known only to themselves, the students are told to place the spreadsheets of heads and tails face-down on Nolan's desk.

Nolan then leaves the room and the students begin writing and flipping. On returning, Nolan glances over the strings of 100 Hs & Ts and declares each to be either real tossups or fakes. Nolan is nearly always right and the students are surprised and assume she must have a spy in the room.

As it happens, true happenstance bears a distinctive stamp, and until you are familiar with it's pattern, you are likely to think it is messier, more haphazard, than it is. In a real tossing of a coin you will find stretches of monotony, strings of 5 and 7 head or tails. Where as people will tend to apply the 50/50 rule over a short period of time, and the over all number of switchbacks is too high, revealing that people have a skewed sense of probabilities. " (The Canon by Angier. (Probabilities 47p)
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Old 26th September 2009, 12:55 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by mijopaalmc View Post
That's pretty much par for the course for Southwind17. After, s/he once claimed that Zeno's paradox disproved the existence of infinity.
If I were you mijo I'd think very carefully about backtracking to previous threads as evidence of one's credence or otherwise, unless, of course, you're a glutton for self-embarrassment.
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Old 26th September 2009, 01:04 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
Thanks, that was educational. In my limited understanding of counting, if you are able to maintain a "position" in your head, plus or minus on face cards, or whatever it is, even a shoe would be countable, so it makes sense they would have to shuffle early.
First, it's usually 10-value cards that are counted (face cards and tens).
Second, yes, a shoe is certainly countable, but by virtue of multiple packs the likelihood of a favourable position reduces, particluarly when only part of the combined decks is essentially used. Towlie claims above to have had an edge over the house with an 8-deck shoe. I'd be interested to learn exactly how much of an edge, and what it equated to in winnings, if anything (unfortunately, he seemingly overlooked context).
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Old 26th September 2009, 05:36 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Southwind17 View Post
First, it's usually 10-value cards that are counted (face cards and tens).


Research! It's really not that hard, and didn't you just warn someone else against being a glutton for self-embarrassment?
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Old 26th September 2009, 06:52 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Towlie View Post
Research! It's really not that hard, and didn't you just warn someone else against being a glutton for self-embarrassment?
Ah yes, self-embarrassment. Would that be the reason you've conveniently avoided enlightening us as to the details of your 8-deck edge, and how much you benefited from it, by any chance?!? Or are you expecting me to go research it myself? If so, where should I start such trivial pursuit, I wonder?
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Old 26th September 2009, 07:25 AM   #142
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I see that the southern hot air is doing pretty much the same thing here that he does elsewhere -- specifically, he persists in playing pedantic semantic1 games instead of engaging in a genuine dialog about the subject matter.

1see definition 4
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Old 26th September 2009, 07:53 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Perpetual Student View Post
I see that the southern hot air is doing pretty much the same thing here that he does elsewhere -- specifically, he persists in playing pedantic semantic1 games instead of engaging in a genuine dialog about the subject matter.
Unfortunately, we can't all be master posters like you, "constantly engaging in a genuine dialog about the subject matter". But we can at least strive to be. Tell you what ... let's take this thread as a case study and see what we can learn from your "genuine dialog about the subject matter". Let's start by reviewing your first post:
Originally Posted by Perpetual Student View Post
I see that the southern hot air is doing pretty much the same thing here that he does elsewhere -- specifically, he persists in playing pedantic semantic1 games instead of engaging in a genuine dialog about the subject matter.
Oh, that's a little disappointing. OK, let's see how you developed your "genuine dialog about the subject matter" by contrasting your first post with your last post:
Originally Posted by Perpetual Student View Post
I see that the southern hot air is doing pretty much the same thing here that he does elsewhere -- specifically, he persists in playing pedantic semantic1 games instead of engaging in a genuine dialog about the subject matter.
Oh, equally disappointing. Perhaps you're not the master poster you would like to have us all believe, and one has to wonder about your motive for joining this thread. The words "pot", "kettle" and "black" come to my mind!
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Old 26th September 2009, 10:29 AM   #144
mijopaalmc
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Originally Posted by Southwind17 View Post
If I were you mijo I'd think very carefully about backtracking to previous threads as evidence of one's credence or otherwise, unless, of course, you're a glutton for self-embarrassment.
Yeah, it was pretty embarrassing the way you insisted that infinity wasn't real because it was an abstraction but continued to base analogies on abstractions.
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Old 26th September 2009, 10:44 AM   #145
Southwind17
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Originally Posted by mijopaalmc View Post
Yeah, it was pretty embarrassing the way you insisted that infinity wasn't real because it was an abstraction but continued to base analogies on abstractions.
Jeez - you really know how to hurt a person mijo. I really can't think of anything more embarrasing than stating a position about something so esoteric as infinity and abstractions. What was I thinking?! Ouch!!! Please stop telling people, though, will you? Pwetty pwease?
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