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Old 20th April 2005, 11:04 PM   #41
CFLarsen
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Quote:
Originally posted by Donks
Oh, and can both the Aztecs in the Northern hemisphere and the Nazcas and Incas in the Southern hemisphere both see all the constellations you are pointing to?
Yes, they would. We are talking an area from 20 deg. North to 10-20 deg South.
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Old 21st April 2005, 01:45 AM   #42
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Quote:
I'm curious, are you gong to show how the Nazcas influenced the Aztecs and Incas?
I'm not sure if this is the work of the Nazca's. What I was aiming to show is that one culture pre dated them all and the knowledge from this culture was not lost. A little like a puzzle. Putting together the peices.


Quote:
Eh......how? What pipes? Where are they? The lines are made by scraping a thin - and I mean thin - layer of rocks and pebbles away from the stony ground.
There are no pipes, that's true. I'm wondering whether the pipes were made of something more valuable. Whatever was on this plain to compliment these patterns has been long removed if it existed.

The the Nazca Plain is a plateau, a rock plateau. Which would retain heat during the day and mix with the cooler sea breeze at night. The stones scatteredon that plateau contain ferritic oxides which create a greenhouse effect by trapping the heat escaping from the plateau. I think these stones may have been brought there.

Quote:
Do you know why it is called the Nazca desert?
Please clarify ??? It's obviously dry !! One of the dryest places on earth. No rains. all the more reason to trap the fogs from the sea.

Quote:
On the ridge in the rainless Atacama desert in Northern Chile, you can still see the tattered remains of large sheets of plastic mesh that once harvested water from the fogs that roll in from the Pacific Ocean. This is recent history…
Perhaps a similar method was used for the Nazca Lines. An ancient version of a plastic mesh.

Here is another constellation on the plain :
Quote:
the constellation which we know as scorpious was considered by the incas to represent a great serpent (the tail of scorpious) which was changing into a condor (the head of scorpius)
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Old 21st April 2005, 02:15 AM   #43
CFLarsen
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Seren,
  • You have no evidence whatsoever that the Nazca's didn't create the patterns.
  • You have no evidence that these pipes ever existed.
  • You have no evidence that these pipes were made of "something more valuable".
  • You have no evidence that something like a plastic mesh was used.
  • You have zero understanding of what creates a greenhouse effect.

You are not doing so hot, are you?

If these pipes existed, why weren't the patterns destroyed in the process? The patterns are very fragile.

Are the rocks and pebbles geologically consistent with the environment? What, exactly, are the rocks and pebbles made of?

If the place is periodically wet from the fog, why don't we see a lot of green plants? That's the first that happens, when a desert gets wet.
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Old 21st April 2005, 03:31 AM   #44
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Seren, I think you are over assuming what a lot of us know about the Nazca desert. For example I couldn't understand why you were talking about sea breezes and deserts within one sentence.
So this web site might be of help to some:

Interesting points:
* The Nazca desert is on a high plateau near on the Pacific Coast in Peru. Explains why the lines could survive for 2000 (+200 or - 600 years
* Explains how the Nazcas could have viewed them -- there is evidence that they had hot air balloons. It's also theorized that the line drawings were used as "road signs" for the balloonists.

Even if in fact the drawings are not a precise match for the constellations, I suppose that the constellations could have inspired the original artists.

What I also think is interesting is that the drawings may be evidence for how wide spread trading was at the time.

Quote:
Source:
Cahuachi….

The permanent population was quite small, but it was apparently a pilgrimage center that grew greatly in population for major ceremonial events. These events probably involved the Nazca lines and the giant sand dune of Nazca. Support for the pilgrimage theory comes from archaeological evidence of sparse population at Cahuachi and from the Nazca lines themselves which show creatures such as killer whales and monkeys which were not present in the Nazca region. Of course, trade or travel may explain the images. Due to the dry climate the finds are quite rich and include even such ephemeral material as clothing.


Emphasis mine.

Lastly this web site verifies (even if I personally don't think it does a great job explaining) that one area can be very dry and still get fogs from the sea. (This assumes that the Nazca desert is part of the Atacama desert. My geograpahy knowledge is not the best.)

Well it looks like I once again proved I am a search engine junkie. I got to break this habit. It was fun, but there were quite a few other things I should have done instead…

ETA after reviewing what I wrote, I'm not sure how accurate the first web site information may be. The web master did not distinguish between the Nazcas and Incas ...caveat lector.
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Old 21st April 2005, 07:58 AM   #45
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Thanks for that post Shera. I also was not aware of the dimentions of the Nazca Plateau. And also that one part of the plain can have fog and other parts be dry.

I think that it's purpose incorporated many things. Trade is a definite possibility.

I'm not sure that they moved the stones to make the lines though !!! Now if they were laying some network down, they would need to move the stones so they lay flatter. Biodegradable or simple removed, I don't know what happened and cannot prove it !!

The part about air ballooning, I would agree with. If they could extract the moisture from the air then they could have build a method of travel by the winds !!
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Old 22nd April 2005, 08:01 AM   #46
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Ferrous Oxide is used in industial processes to lock heat in.

The rocks scattered across the Nazca plain contain Ferrous Oxides, that`s why they are a reddish colour.

Heat escaping from the plateau would be slowed down by these rocks.

The picture of the monkey squeezing the moisture out of the air on the Nazca plain shows that they understood about how air circulates and also that this air which passes from the pacific to the Andes passed over the Nazca plain. The trick was to identify a way of extracting the moisture before it reached the Andes- There are modern day examples of this in Chile.

The raised plateau was a yellowish rock (actually similar to the rock on which the Aztec Calendar was drawn out).

The pictures on the plain are either of animals or plants which have a unique feature with taking moisture from the air OR they are images which the Inca recognised as constellations along the milky way or as gateways for the sun passing through the Milky way.

I'm having a look at some of your questions- I'm doubting they used pipes. The surface below the sand is solid rock perhaps they didn`t need to. There are no plants because the cooler sea breezes only pass over the region.

Need to check up on what Greenhouse Effects !!
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Old 22nd April 2005, 08:52 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by Seren
The picture of the monkey squeezing the moisture out of the air
The monkey doing what? How do you know it's squeezing moisture out of the air?
Quote:

The pictures on the plain are either of animals or plants which have a unique feature with taking moisture from the air OR they are images which the Inca recognised as constellations along the milky way or as gateways for the sun passing through the Milky way.
What do the Inca have to do with anything? They appeared around a thousand years after the figures were created.
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Old 22nd April 2005, 03:59 PM   #48
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Seren, when you type up your final version of your theory -- you may want to give credit to whomever it's appropriate to do so. The other day, when using the Google search engine on this subject, I think I saw some of your ideas stated by other people. (I was reading very quickly though.)

Also, you may want to read up on how aqueducts were used by the Nazcas and see how that fits in with your theory.

ETA: very few people come up with fully thought out ideas from a vacuum. The more footnotes and references your paper lists, the more seriously I susupect it will be taken.
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Old 23rd April 2005, 10:26 AM   #49
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When I worked for an architecture firm, this guy was really excited about his blueprints, so while he was on the site, he traced out an approximation in the dirt with a stick that was about the right size when we measured it. I'm sure those Nasca lines were drawn by people like that, possibly with a straightedge. That's my theory anyway.
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Old 25th April 2005, 01:32 AM   #50
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Quote:
The monkey doing what? How do you know it's squeezing moisture out of the air?


That's my interpretation of the drawing.

I interpret the tail of the monkey as the current of air which is passing over the plain and which deposits rain on the Andes.

The rectangle of straight lines I would interpret as crops.



I also interpret it to represent the 2 constellations of Capricorn and Aquarius.

Aquarius is known as the Water Bearer in the Zodiac but is an air sign. There is a link here.

The Milky Way is known as the celestial river in which water travels from the sea to the mountains on the December Solstice. Corresponding to Capricorn/Aquarius.

Quote:
What do the Inca have to do with anything? They appeared around a thousand years after the figures were created
I used Inca astronomy to illustrate a point. As the exact date of the lines has not been established, it's difficult to say who constructed them. But as in most cases, this knowledge has been hidden in myths in the civilizations that followed.

My interpretation is that these lines belong to a Lost civilization, a civilization that had the ability to travel and trade. (teaching their knowledge to other civilizations)

Quote:
Seren, when you type up your final version of your theory -- you may want to give credit to whomever it's appropriate to do so. The other day, when using the Google search engine on this subject, I think I saw some of your ideas stated by other people. (I was reading very quickly though.)
Thanks for the advice Shera. I always quote references in the work I post. This work here is new however it is inspired from much work done on the Nazca lines & Aztec calendar from many sources. The interpretations are new.

Quote:
Also, you may want to read up on how aqueducts were used by the Nazcas and see how that fits in with your theory.
Thanks. I didn't know about the aquaducts.

Thanks for all those who replied.
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Old 25th April 2005, 01:35 AM   #51
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Seren,

Do you have anything else than your interpretations (which are based on deploringly poor information)?
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Old 25th April 2005, 01:44 AM   #52
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I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'anything else' ?
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Old 25th April 2005, 04:40 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by Seren
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'anything else' ?
Seren, I've read this thread a couple of times now to grasp an understanding of your viewpoints, and now honestly feel you don't have much of a grasp of how science works.

Claus has pointed out the need for evidence several times, which you seem confused about. Let me try to explain to see if I can't help you on your way.

I write speculative fiction as something of a hobby. Just short stories mostly. Speculative fiction is basically looking at the world around us and asking 'what if?'. It strikes me how similar some people's theory making process mirrors my story making process. I ask 'what if A were true' and I write a story.

Science is a methodology we use to try to sort the speculative from the real. The problem is, you see, the 'real' is an unacheivable goal. God's answer-book is not available to us, so we need some way of categorising our observations and making the universe predictable without knowing if we are right or not. We do this through matching up observations with models we have speculated that could well be those answers we seek.

Hence why my story-writing process is very similar to theory-making.

But it is crucial that to contribute to making the universe more predictable and understandable, we must provide evidence. It's like a court trial; circumstantial evidence cannot be used to put a man in jail. Your suggestions of fogs and monkey-squeezing are circumstantial at best. They are speculative, and even a whole trial of circumstantial evidence is not going to decide the truth behind a man's guilt.

I could suggest the monkey does not seem to be squeezing the air, but appears to be scraping at the ground. Maybe he is digging at the soil? The rocks contain large amounts of ferrous oxide, which is basically rusted iron. So I can suggest that the monkey symbolised an ancient mining industry in the area. My theory is no more or less solid than yours...so how would we determine the validity of each?

We're all here to learn from one another, mate. Good luck and I hope you discover something more beneficial than a mere piece of speculative fiction.

Athon
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Old 26th April 2005, 08:53 AM   #54
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Quote:
I could suggest the monkey does not seem to be squeezing the air, but appears to be scraping at the ground. Maybe he is digging at the soil? The rocks contain large amounts of ferrous oxide, which is basically rusted iron. So I can suggest that the monkey symbolised an ancient mining industry in the area. My theory is no more or less solid than yours...so how would we determine the validity of each?
Interesting Athon !! Perhaps you may be right about the ancient mining industry !! Minerals in water sounds like a great resource !!
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Old 26th April 2005, 09:10 AM   #55
CFLarsen
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Quote:
Originally posted by Seren
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'anything else' ?
So, all you have are your interpretations?
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Old 26th April 2005, 09:30 AM   #56
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Originally posted by Seren
Interesting Athon !! Perhaps you may be right about the ancient mining industry !! Minerals in water sounds like a great resource !!
Hey, hands off the monkey-scraping theory. It's mine! You have your own monkey-squeezing theory to bash.



Now, do you honestly see the difference between science and speculation? Speculation is rather irrelevant when you only have circumstantial observations. There's no harm in proposing such ideas (hell, sci-fi writers do it all the time), but there is little point in constructively analysing them in a serious attempt to better understand or universe.

Athon
(BTW, the spider is also scraping the ground, and the pelican is a piece of ancient mining equipment. Look out for my upcoming expose; Nazca's: Chariots of the Dwarves.
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Old 26th April 2005, 11:17 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shera


* Explains how the Nazcas could have viewed them -- there is evidence that they had hot air balloons. It's also theorized that the line drawings were used as "road signs" for the balloonists.

No; there is evidence that a working hot air balloon could've been built using materials available to the Nazcas at the time. However, there is no evidence that the Nazcas actually built or used such balloons. The mistake here is assuming that because something could've happened, it therefore likely did. The case can be made that the ancient Maya, using materials available to them, could have conceivably constructed massive sailing galleons, capable of taking them across oceans. But there is no evidence of such work, or even inclination toward attempting such work.

The lines can only be seen in their entirety from the air; however, the problem this time is jumping to the conclusion that the Nazcas therefore must have used that vantage point during construction, or to "view" the lines. The lines could easily have been "constructed" using line-of-sight stakes and a little planning.


As for Seren's theories: I find the idea of the Nazca lines representing constellations to be fascinating and entirely plausible. I find the notion that the Aztec sunstone is a representation of the sky to be practically axiomatic (what else is there to base a calendar on?).

On the other hand, I find your "application of Inca mythology" to the Aztec calendar to be somewhat anticlimactic. You're not really applying the mythology per se, you're simply noting that both the Inca and the Aztecs were aware of the sun's position relative to the path of the Milky Way, and that this postion changed over time. The two cultures shared the same sky. They don't share much else. Consider, for example, that for the Incas the sun's leaving the Milky Way forecast the "downfall of Andean civilization", whereas for the Aztecs it wasn't so important.

The Nazca lines can very reasonably be considered to be representations of constellations; but the Nazcas, again, lived under the same sky. All ancient civilizations new quite a lot about the sky (this being a function of no light pollution and little else to do at night for hundreds of years). It makes perfect sense that they noted certain patterns and fancied them to be similar in shape to nearby animals. None of this necessarily indicates that some "unifying field civilization", as it were, links the Nazcas, Incas, and Aztecs. Each of these civilizations had more than enough time to come to the same correct conclusions about the sky and movement of objects in it all by themselves.

As for the water collection theory; this is intriguing, but it is where you have your most serious problems. Firstly, I see little connection to the beginning of your argument. You don't seem to be suggesting that the Aztecs or Incas gathered water in this way (not that they would've needed to). I also fail to see the necessary connection between the Nazcas' celestial knowledge and the gathering of water. The onshore sea breeze, which brings the fog, would occur during the day (as the sun warms the land, the land warms the air - that air rises, cooler air from over the ocean rushes in to take its place). At night when the stars are visible, the breezes are reversed, and no collection could take place. It seems to me that if the Nazcas were engaged in this "fog farming", the collection "stations" would not be so few and far between. You could have one every few feet, and this would be the most efficient thing to do. In other words, I don't see why collection points would only need to be established at line locations.

But the largest problem with the water collection theory is that there is simply no evidence to support it. There is no reason to believe the Aztecs created these collection points and used a system of pipes to harvest water in this fashion. The fact that it has been done in modern days in Africa does not mean it must've been done in ancient days in South America.
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Old 26th April 2005, 12:19 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
No; there is evidence that a working hot air balloon could've been built using materials available to the Nazcas at the time. However, there is no evidence that the Nazcas actually built or used such balloons. The mistake here is assuming that because something could've happened, it therefore likely did.
Well below is a sample of what some web sites have to say. Its true that none of the web sites that I've seen are quoting anyone or showing a picture of the alleged pottery, but I haven't seriously searched for good evidence either.

Quote:
There is some say a valid claim that the first person to fly a hot air balloon may have been an ancient Inca above the plains of Nazca about 100BC based on the design of a pottery artefact in Lima and the mysterious markings of the Nazca plain. A replica balloon "Condor 1" based on this design and built using only available materials successfully flew over Nazca in 1975.
Quote:
There is evidence suggesting that the Chinese experimented with manned balloon flight more than 3,000 years ago. In Peru, a piece of 2,000-year-old Nazca Indian pottery carries the unmistakable design of a balloon. (In 1975, scientists built a balloon based on the design, using only materials that were available 2,000 years ago. The balloon flew, safely carrying two men.) But it wasn't until 1783 that manned flight became a documented reality.
Emphasis added.

Also, according to this web site which I had also linked to in an earlier post, there's an ancient Nazca legend that talks about a flying machine. Unfortunately, this web site also does not provide sources. {Shrug}
Quote:
The final proof for Woodson, however, came through an ancient folktale about a young boy named Antarqui,or "Flying Incan Boy". This story was set during the times of the war between the Incan and Mayan Indians. The story goes that the boy was sent up into the air to fly over the enemy's location and note the direction from which they would be attacking. The boy was said to have hung over the enemy in a "flying machine".
If I was serious about researching this, I think the first thing I would try to find out is what documentation Woodson referred to when he developed his theory that the ancient Nazcas used air balloons. The last web site I linked to above talks more about Woodson who tested his baloon theory by building one with materials available 2,000 years ago.
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Old 26th April 2005, 01:58 PM   #59
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I would very much like to see the pottery, myself. I have found dozens of sites, many of which stress that the pottery image was "unmistakably" that of a hot-air balloon. But none of these sites has a photo of the "unmistakable" pottery image. Further, when I see photos of the actual balloon used, it's very strange and distorted-looking; an odd polygon shape, as opposed to a nice, round hot-air balloon. Given the Nazcas' stylistic art (look at their birds, for example), one is curious what the "unmistakable" image truly looked like. One is also curious why some of the figures are so disproportionate or skewed if an aerial vantage point was available.

Here is an example of a more down-to-earth method by which the lines could've been constructed. At the moment it's a bit more credible than the balloon theory simply due to the fact that a scale-size Nazca figure has been reproduced using the method.
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Old 26th April 2005, 06:45 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
I would very much like to see the pottery, myself. I have found dozens of sites, many of which stress that the pottery image was "unmistakably" that of a hot-air balloon. But none of these sites has a photo of the "unmistakable" pottery image.
Good point.
Quote:
Further, when I see photos of the actual balloon used, it's very strange and distorted-looking; an odd polygon shape, as opposed to a nice, round hot-air balloon. Given the Nazcas' stylistic art (look at their birds, for example), one is curious what the "unmistakable" image truly looked like.
Another good point.

I wrote my last post in haste, and I realize that my first post on the subject was perhaps too cryptic. I never saw a site that said air balloons may have been used in overseeing the work of the Nazca line drawings -- just that they may have used them to view the line drawings after they were already drawn (as well as for other purposes).

Generally whenever an ancient culture had a large community project it seems that it was usually for the gods and/or the royalty. The fact that they chose line drawings as a community project seems to be encouraging of the idea that some of the Nazcas (perhaps the royalty or the priests) had a way to enjoy them also. I have no evidence to support this, it's just my thought based on what I know about human nature (or at least what think I know about human nature. )

Quote:
Here is an example of a more down-to-earth method by which the lines could've been constructed. At the moment it's a bit more credible than the balloon theory simply due to the fact that a scale-size Nazca figure has been reproduced using the method.
Yes, I saw that site. I agree that's probably how they created the line drawings. Of all the possible ways, it really is the most accurate way to go.
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Old 27th April 2005, 07:14 AM   #61
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Thank you Joshua for your lengthy reply.

I ´make a lot of mistakes in my write up as I am not a scientist neither am I an astronomer or Historian. However I do recognise patterns and connections among events.

What I posted is an alternative idea, one which needs a great deal of fine tuning. I myself am not qualified to do that so any help is much appreciated.

My theories are available for anyone to use however they wish.

The problem with having lack of knowledge on specific subjects is that it´s difficult to get to the detail part without years of training.

Once again, many thanks for the comments and advice I have received here.
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