Boy Scouts Reaffirms Ban on Gays - Page 3

Zelenius · 28th July 2012, 10:00 AM

This is discriminatory and probably even illegal(I am not very familiar with the law), but why is it that Freemasonry is allowed to discriminate against women? Why can't women be allowed to be full members? I know that it's a "fraternity", but countless all-male fraternity-like organizations have changed their policies and allowed women to become members.

What's so special about the Freemasons? I realize this is off topic and maybe I should have started another thread, but I have long been fascinated by the Freemasons.

ponderingturtle · 28th July 2012, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by Zelenius

This is discriminatory and probably even illegal(I am not very familiar with the law), but why is it that Freemasonry is allowed to discriminate against women? Why can't women be allowed to be full members? I know that it's a "fraternity", but countless all-male fraternity-like organizations have changed their policies and allowed women to become members.

What's so special about the Freemasons? I realize this is off topic and maybe I should have started another thread, but I have long been fascinated by the Freemasons.

The thing here is that as a private organization they can admit who they want. They could say no women or blacks and it would be legal. The problem is that the boy scouts have ties to goverment and that is the real issue.

Matthew Best · 28th July 2012, 03:16 PM

Also relevant:

http://eaglebadges.tumblr.com/

Fitter · 28th July 2012, 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by Zelenius

This is discriminatory and probably even illegal(I am not very familiar with the law), but why is it that Freemasonry is allowed to discriminate against women? Why can't women be allowed to be full members? I know that it's a "fraternity", but countless all-male fraternity-like organizations have changed their policies and allowed women to become members.

What's so special about the Freemasons? I realize this is off topic and maybe I should have started another thread, but I have long been fascinated by the Freemasons.

Who can make them integrate? They run the whole world.

crimresearch · 29th July 2012, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by Zelenius

This is discriminatory and probably even illegal(I am not very familiar with the law), but why is it that Freemasonry is allowed to discriminate against women? Why can't women be allowed to be full members? I know that it's a "fraternity", but countless all-male fraternity-like organizations have changed their policies and allowed women to become members.

What's so special about the Freemasons? I realize this is off topic and maybe I should have started another thread, but I have long been fascinated by the Freemasons.

The law applies equally to the Masons as to the Scouts, and for the same reasons, via well established court tests on private groups' right to discriminate.

Note that the fallout at this point is likely to cost the Scouts even more of their special access to government facilities, which as a group claiming protection from said law by dint of being private, they never should have had.

The notion that a young person should be told 'All the other kids are going to be having fun at the Scouting event on the school grounds, or up at the nearby military base... but you can't come.' is repugnant.

OnlyTellsTruths · 8th August 2012, 08:53 PM

President Obama has opined:

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012...ing-gays?litec

Quote:

White House spokesman Shin Inouye said in a statement that Obama believes the Boy Scouts of America has helped to educate and build character in boys. “He also opposes discrimination in all forms, and as such opposes this policy that discriminates on basis of sexual orientation,” according to the statement, which was first reported by the Washington Blade*.

*http://www.washingtonblade.com/2012/...s-ban-on-gays/

The NBC article also points out candidate Romney's opinion from 20 years ago:

Quote:

"I support the right of the Boy Scouts of America to decide what it wants to do on that issue. I feel that all people should be able to participate in the Boy Scouts regardless of their sexual orientation," Romney said in 1994.

I wonder if Romney would be willing to say that in the current Republican climate...

tyr_13 · 8th August 2012, 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by Zelenius

This is discriminatory and probably even illegal(I am not very familiar with the law), but why is it that Freemasonry is allowed to discriminate against women? Why can't women be allowed to be full members? I know that it's a "fraternity", but countless all-male fraternity-like organizations have changed their policies and allowed women to become members.

What's so special about the Freemasons? I realize this is off topic and maybe I should have started another thread, but I have long been fascinated by the Freemasons.

Women can be Freemasons now by the way.

The Central Scrutinizer · 28th January 2013, 11:45 AM

Not so fast....

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...90R0X420130128

Sounds like they're feeling the heat.

dafydd · 28th January 2013, 11:56 AM

How ironic, when you consider that Baden-Powell's book was called ''Scouting For Boys''

cwalner · 28th January 2013, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

Not so fast....

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...90R0X420130128

Sounds like they're feeling the heat.

Good news. I have a feeling that the conservative elements within scouts are going to raise a fuss, so I don't this very likely to change, yet.

It is still progress that the national board is at least considering it.

Joecool · 28th January 2013, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by aggle-rithm

Well, the Scout Law does say that a scout should be "Morally Straight".

The scout law also mentions doing my duty to God and my country.

Meadmaker · 28th January 2013, 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by cwalner

Good news. I have a feeling that the conservative elements within scouts are going to raise a fuss, so I don't this very likely to change, yet.

It is still progress that the national board is at least considering it.

Groups are starting to withdraw funding.

There's nothing like a pay cut to get people to start reconsidering their traditions.

Warrior1461 · 30th January 2013, 01:11 AM

What is causing this change is the fact money talks louder than any sacred tradition or values. Their bigotry is causing memberships to decline thus less money flowing in.

Estellea · 30th January 2013, 06:22 AM

This from Scrut's link:

Quote:

The Family Research Council, which said in December it would pull its business with UPS because the package delivery company had decided to cease funding of the Boy Scouts, said on Monday the Scouts should resist the pressure to change its policy.

"If the board capitulates to the bullying of homosexual activists, the Boy Scouts' legacy of producing great leaders will become yet another casualty of moral compromise," Family Research Council President Tony Perkins said in a statement.

I'm sure UPS is going to feel that heat.

The national policy is a start but still weasly since local chapters can still discriminate. And what about openly-atheist parents and children?

Este

pgwenthold · 24th April 2013, 10:11 AM

I heard yesterday that the BSA has proposed a "compromise" in that gay scouts are allowed, but gay scout leaders are not. Sorry, I heard it on the radio so I have no link or anything.

As expected, no one is happy with it. The anti-gay people are unhappy that they will let any gays in, and the pro-equality side is like, huh? Gay kids are ok, but gay adults aren't?

I heard a recording of an exchange between an anti-gay guy and an equality advocate. The anti-gay guy made the claim that this policy will cause the end of the Boy Scouts, because it is going to cause religious groups, including Catholic and Baptist churches, to drop their sponsorship.

Unfortunately, no one made the counter-argument that, you know, maybe if your existence depends on support from organizations who discriminate, then perhaps you should reconsider your status.

In fact, not only should the BSA not be afraid of those churches dropping their support, what they should be doing is refusing support from them so long as they hold their discriminatory policies. That would be the right thing to do.

28th July 2012, 10:00 AM	#81
Zelenius Muse Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: East coast, U.S Posts: 618	This is discriminatory and probably even illegal(I am not very familiar with the law), but why is it that Freemasonry is allowed to discriminate against women? Why can't women be allowed to be full members? I know that it's a "fraternity", but countless all-male fraternity-like organizations have changed their policies and allowed women to become members. What's so special about the Freemasons? I realize this is off topic and maybe I should have started another thread, but I have long been fascinated by the Freemasons.
	Last edited by Zelenius; 28th July 2012 at 10:01 AM.

28th July 2012, 10:40 AM	#82
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tarrytown, NY Posts: 26,421	Originally Posted by Zelenius This is discriminatory and probably even illegal(I am not very familiar with the law), but why is it that Freemasonry is allowed to discriminate against women? Why can't women be allowed to be full members? I know that it's a "fraternity", but countless all-male fraternity-like organizations have changed their policies and allowed women to become members. What's so special about the Freemasons? I realize this is off topic and maybe I should have started another thread, but I have long been fascinated by the Freemasons. The thing here is that as a private organization they can admit who they want. They could say no women or blacks and it would be legal. The problem is that the boy scouts have ties to goverment and that is the real issue.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

29th July 2012, 03:51 PM	#85
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Originally Posted by Zelenius This is discriminatory and probably even illegal(I am not very familiar with the law), but why is it that Freemasonry is allowed to discriminate against women? Why can't women be allowed to be full members? I know that it's a "fraternity", but countless all-male fraternity-like organizations have changed their policies and allowed women to become members. What's so special about the Freemasons? I realize this is off topic and maybe I should have started another thread, but I have long been fascinated by the Freemasons. The law applies equally to the Masons as to the Scouts, and for the same reasons, via well established court tests on private groups' right to discriminate. Note that the fallout at this point is likely to cost the Scouts even more of their special access to government facilities, which as a group claiming protection from said law by dint of being private, they never should have had. The notion that a young person should be told 'All the other kids are going to be having fun at the Scouting event on the school grounds, or up at the nearby military base... but you can't come.' is repugnant.
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618

8th August 2012, 08:53 PM	#86
OnlyTellsTruths Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 5,784	President Obama has opined: http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012...ing-gays?litec Quote: White House spokesman Shin Inouye said in a statement that Obama believes the Boy Scouts of America has helped to educate and build character in boys. “He also opposes discrimination in all forms, and as such opposes this policy that discriminates on basis of sexual orientation,” according to the statement, which was first reported by the Washington Blade. http://www.washingtonblade.com/2012/...s-ban-on-gays/ The NBC article also points out candidate Romney's opinion from 20 years ago: Quote: "I support the right of the Boy Scouts of America to decide what it wants to do on that issue. I feel that all people should be able to participate in the Boy Scouts regardless of their sexual orientation," Romney said in 1994. I wonder if Romney would be willing to say that in the current Republican climate...
OnlyTellsTruths Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 5,784	__________________ ________________________

8th August 2012, 09:17 PM	#87
tyr_13 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Falconer, NY Posts: 9,655	Originally Posted by Zelenius This is discriminatory and probably even illegal(I am not very familiar with the law), but why is it that Freemasonry is allowed to discriminate against women? Why can't women be allowed to be full members? I know that it's a "fraternity", but countless all-male fraternity-like organizations have changed their policies and allowed women to become members. What's so special about the Freemasons? I realize this is off topic and maybe I should have started another thread, but I have long been fascinated by the Freemasons. Women can be Freemasons now by the way.
	__________________ Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong

28th July 2012, 03:16 PM	#83
Matthew Best Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Leicester Square, London Posts: 4,113	Also relevant: http://eaglebadges.tumblr.com/

28th July 2012, 06:48 PM	#84
Fitter Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Where the pavement ends Posts: 3,502	Originally Posted by Zelenius This is discriminatory and probably even illegal(I am not very familiar with the law), but why is it that Freemasonry is allowed to discriminate against women? Why can't women be allowed to be full members? I know that it's a "fraternity", but countless all-male fraternity-like organizations have changed their policies and allowed women to become members. What's so special about the Freemasons? I realize this is off topic and maybe I should have started another thread, but I have long been fascinated by the Freemasons. Who can make them integrate? They run the whole world.

28th January 2013, 11:45 AM	#88
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Pither Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,266	Not so fast.... http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...90R0X420130128 Sounds like they're feeling the heat.
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

28th January 2013, 11:56 AM	#89
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,445	How ironic, when you consider that Baden-Powell's book was called ''Scouting For Boys''
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

28th January 2013, 12:01 PM	#90
cwalner Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Deepest Darkest Indiana Posts: 5,694	Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer Not so fast.... http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...90R0X420130128 Sounds like they're feeling the heat. Good news. I have a feeling that the conservative elements within scouts are going to raise a fuss, so I don't this very likely to change, yet. It is still progress that the national board is at least considering it.
	__________________ Vecini - Inconceivable! Inigo - You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

28th January 2013, 12:30 PM	#91
Joecool Muse Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Hawaii Posts: 936	Originally Posted by aggle-rithm Well, the Scout Law does say that a scout should be "Morally Straight". The scout law also mentions doing my duty to God and my country.

28th January 2013, 04:54 PM	#92
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Detroit suburbs Posts: 11,435	Originally Posted by cwalner Good news. I have a feeling that the conservative elements within scouts are going to raise a fuss, so I don't this very likely to change, yet. It is still progress that the national board is at least considering it. Groups are starting to withdraw funding. There's nothing like a pay cut to get people to start reconsidering their traditions.
	__________________ Dave "War is Peace. Freedom is slavery. Particles are waves."

30th January 2013, 01:11 AM	#93
Warrior1461 Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 255	Re: Boy Scouts Reaffirms Ban on Gays What is causing this change is the fact money talks louder than any sacred tradition or values. Their bigotry is causing memberships to decline thus less money flowing in.

30th January 2013, 06:22 AM	#94
Estellea Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,117	This from Scrut's link: Quote: The Family Research Council, which said in December it would pull its business with UPS because the package delivery company had decided to cease funding of the Boy Scouts, said on Monday the Scouts should resist the pressure to change its policy. "If the board capitulates to the bullying of homosexual activists, the Boy Scouts' legacy of producing great leaders will become yet another casualty of moral compromise," Family Research Council President Tony Perkins said in a statement. I'm sure UPS is going to feel that heat. The national policy is a start but still weasly since local chapters can still discriminate. And what about openly-atheist parents and children? Este

24th April 2013, 10:11 AM	#95
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,067	I heard yesterday that the BSA has proposed a "compromise" in that gay scouts are allowed, but gay scout leaders are not. Sorry, I heard it on the radio so I have no link or anything. As expected, no one is happy with it. The anti-gay people are unhappy that they will let any gays in, and the pro-equality side is like, huh? Gay kids are ok, but gay adults aren't? I heard a recording of an exchange between an anti-gay guy and an equality advocate. The anti-gay guy made the claim that this policy will cause the end of the Boy Scouts, because it is going to cause religious groups, including Catholic and Baptist churches, to drop their sponsorship. Unfortunately, no one made the counter-argument that, you know, maybe if your existence depends on support from organizations who discriminate, then perhaps you should reconsider your status. In fact, not only should the BSA not be afraid of those churches dropping their support, what they should be doing is refusing support from them so long as they hold their discriminatory policies. That would be the right thing to do.
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)