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JoeTheJuggler · 26th November 2012, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by CaptBang

I accept that Romney would be bad for workers, but how much better is Obama in the long run? The whole Democratic game is keep the status quo but using their politicians to control the smoke and mirrors to trick the rest of us.

So the payroll tax cut, the ACA, ending DADT, etc. is all smoke and mirrors and is the same as the status quo?

That's an easy enough claim to debunk.

ETA:

Quote:

Or, did you think that with Obama came fundamental change and a break with the past 50 years?

There's an awful lot of space in between no difference from the status quo and fundamental change. In fact, most of politics and most of government happens in that space.

MattusMaximus · 26th November 2012, 08:29 PM

I saw a LOT of post-hoc rationalization among my more conservative relatives this past Thanksgiving weekend. Sadly, much of it took the form of conspiracy mongering about how "Obama rigged the vote" or similar accusations of voter fraud. Such is the level of their disbelief that the rest of the country doesn't think the way they do in their politically isolated echo chamber.

I fear that Republican governors and state legislatures are going to try even more draconian limitations on voting rights in the years to come as a result. Ah well, can't help fools

Checkmite · 26th November 2012, 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by MattusMaximus

I saw a LOT of post-hoc rationalization among my more conservative relatives this past Thanksgiving weekend. Sadly, much of it took the form of conspiracy mongering about how "Obama rigged the vote" or similar accusations of voter fraud. Such is the level of their disbelief that the rest of the country doesn't think the way they do in their politically isolated echo chamber.

Even the ones who aren't willing to go as far as alleging vote-rigging remain nonplussed that so much of America does not think like them.

But this isn't some new revelation; the vehement disavowal by conservatives of all poll results by any agency that showed Obama with a "slight lead" and trumpeting the one single poll that week that showed a Romney lead in the months leading up to the election made this kind of reaction inevitable.

Of course, logically the fact that all those "liberally-biased polls" showed Obama with a slight couple-points lead, followed by the fact that Obama won the popular vote with (shock!) a couple-percentage-points lead, should lead one to the conclusion that they weren't so biased after all but were in fact fairly close to accurate. Has anyone seen any conservative commentators admitting this conclusion in the wake of the election?

Quinn · 26th November 2012, 09:48 PM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

Of course, logically the fact that all those "liberally-biased polls" showed Obama with a slight couple-points lead, followed by the fact that Obama won the popular vote with (shock!) a couple-percentage-points lead, should lead one to the conclusion that they weren't so biased after all but were in fact fairly close to accurate. Has anyone seen any conservative commentators admitting this conclusion in the wake of the election?

Wasn't there a brief, shining moment when the Unskewed Polls guy admitted he was wrong, before he came to his conservatively-indoctrinated senses, doubled his dose of crazy pills, and started his new web site about how Obama stole the election?

Alareth · 27th November 2012, 06:47 AM

Originally Posted by Quinn

Wasn't there a brief, shining moment when the Unskewed Polls guy admitted he was wrong, before he came to his conservatively-indoctrinated senses, doubled his dose of crazy pills, and started his new web site about how Obama stole the election?

Yes, he did.

http://www.businessinsider.com/unske...barone-2012-11

zeggman · 27th November 2012, 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by MattusMaximus

I fear that Republican governors and state legislatures are going to try even more draconian limitations on voting rights in the years to come as a result. Ah well, can't help fools

You know, even if they do go draconian, all that really means is that "get out the vote" efforts will include obtaining IDs in addition to registering people. Since "voter fraud" isn't really what tipped the balance, eliminating it won't make much difference.

The only other measure I can imagine would target convicted felons, and I'm guessing that would knock out mostly people who were never likely to vote in the first place, and be evenly distributed between Rs and Ds.

zeggman · 27th November 2012, 07:05 AM

Originally Posted by lomiller

Most media outlets in do, period. Not jus newspapers. In conservatives minds, however, any media outlet that doesn’t restrict itself to promoting their point of view and only their point of view is guilty of “liberal bias”

That's not really true. Even Fox News offers a microphone to lots of liberals, if only to give Gretchen Carlson a good brow-furrowing "last word".

MattusMaximus · 27th November 2012, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by Quinn

Wasn't there a brief, shining moment when the Unskewed Polls guy admitted he was wrong, before he came to his conservatively-indoctrinated senses, doubled his dose of crazy pills, and started his new web site about how Obama stole the election?

Wow, the guy is a genius. He has found a way to guarantee both fame and an income via promotion among right-wing rubes for the next four years. I wonder how long until he has a book out?

Like I said earlier: can't help fools.

BenBurch · 27th November 2012, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by zeggman

That's not really true. Even Fox News offers a microphone to lots of liberals, if only to give Gretchen Carlson a good brow-furrowing "last word".

Yes, even some friends of mine.

26th November 2012, 02:20 PM	#161
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 27,173	Originally Posted by CaptBang I accept that Romney would be bad for workers, but how much better is Obama in the long run? The whole Democratic game is keep the status quo but using their politicians to control the smoke and mirrors to trick the rest of us. So the payroll tax cut, the ACA, ending DADT, etc. is all smoke and mirrors and is the same as the status quo? That's an easy enough claim to debunk. ETA: Quote: Or, did you think that with Obama came fundamental change and a break with the past 50 years? There's an awful lot of space in between no difference from the status quo and fundamental change. In fact, most of politics and most of government happens in that space.
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons Last edited by JoeTheJuggler; 26th November 2012 at 02:28 PM.

26th November 2012, 08:29 PM	#162
MattusMaximus Intellectual Gladiator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In the midst of a vast, beautiful & uncaring universe Posts: 14,204	I saw a LOT of post-hoc rationalization among my more conservative relatives this past Thanksgiving weekend. Sadly, much of it took the form of conspiracy mongering about how "Obama rigged the vote" or similar accusations of voter fraud. Such is the level of their disbelief that the rest of the country doesn't think the way they do in their politically isolated echo chamber. I fear that Republican governors and state legislatures are going to try even more draconian limitations on voting rights in the years to come as a result. Ah well, can't help fools
	__________________ Visit my blog: The Skeptical Teacher The Times They Are A-Changin'

26th November 2012, 09:48 PM	#164
Quinn Breathtakingly blasphemous. Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,952	Originally Posted by Checkmite Of course, logically the fact that all those "liberally-biased polls" showed Obama with a slight couple-points lead, followed by the fact that Obama won the popular vote with (shock!) a couple-percentage-points lead, should lead one to the conclusion that they weren't so biased after all but were in fact fairly close to accurate. Has anyone seen any conservative commentators admitting this conclusion in the wake of the election? Wasn't there a brief, shining moment when the Unskewed Polls guy admitted he was wrong, before he came to his conservatively-indoctrinated senses, doubled his dose of crazy pills, and started his new web site about how Obama stole the election?
	__________________ It's not a matter of living life without mystery or wonder. It's a matter of living life without the approval of people who ignorantly assume that by rejecting the irrational, I experience no mystery or wonder. And frankly, I do just fine without that.

27th November 2012, 06:47 AM	#165
Alareth Expert Expertologist Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 6,807	Originally Posted by Quinn Wasn't there a brief, shining moment when the Unskewed Polls guy admitted he was wrong, before he came to his conservatively-indoctrinated senses, doubled his dose of crazy pills, and started his new web site about how Obama stole the election? Yes, he did. http://www.businessinsider.com/unske...barone-2012-11
	__________________ Pixelated Reality \| Alareth Does Art! Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright, until you hear them speak

27th November 2012, 06:57 AM	#166
zeggman Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 1,788	Originally Posted by MattusMaximus I fear that Republican governors and state legislatures are going to try even more draconian limitations on voting rights in the years to come as a result. Ah well, can't help fools You know, even if they do go draconian, all that really means is that "get out the vote" efforts will include obtaining IDs in addition to registering people. Since "voter fraud" isn't really what tipped the balance, eliminating it won't make much difference. The only other measure I can imagine would target convicted felons, and I'm guessing that would knock out mostly people who were never likely to vote in the first place, and be evenly distributed between Rs and Ds.
zeggman Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 1,788

26th November 2012, 09:11 PM	#163
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Third in line Posts: 14,979	Originally Posted by MattusMaximus I saw a LOT of post-hoc rationalization among my more conservative relatives this past Thanksgiving weekend. Sadly, much of it took the form of conspiracy mongering about how "Obama rigged the vote" or similar accusations of voter fraud. Such is the level of their disbelief that the rest of the country doesn't think the way they do in their politically isolated echo chamber. Even the ones who aren't willing to go as far as alleging vote-rigging remain nonplussed that so much of America does not think like them. But this isn't some new revelation; the vehement disavowal by conservatives of all poll results by any agency that showed Obama with a "slight lead" and trumpeting the one single poll that week that showed a Romney lead in the months leading up to the election made this kind of reaction inevitable. Of course, logically the fact that all those "liberally-biased polls" showed Obama with a slight couple-points lead, followed by the fact that Obama won the popular vote with (shock!) a couple-percentage-points lead, should lead one to the conclusion that they weren't so biased after all but were in fact fairly close to accurate. Has anyone seen any conservative commentators admitting this conclusion in the wake of the election?

27th November 2012, 07:05 AM	#167
zeggman Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 1,788	Originally Posted by lomiller Most media outlets in do, period. Not jus newspapers. In conservatives minds, however, any media outlet that doesn’t restrict itself to promoting their point of view and only their point of view is guilty of “liberal bias” That's not really true. Even Fox News offers a microphone to lots of liberals, if only to give Gretchen Carlson a good brow-furrowing "last word".
zeggman Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 1,788

27th November 2012, 10:17 AM	#168
MattusMaximus Intellectual Gladiator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In the midst of a vast, beautiful & uncaring universe Posts: 14,204	Originally Posted by Quinn Wasn't there a brief, shining moment when the Unskewed Polls guy admitted he was wrong, before he came to his conservatively-indoctrinated senses, doubled his dose of crazy pills, and started his new web site about how Obama stole the election? Wow, the guy is a genius. He has found a way to guarantee both fame and an income via promotion among right-wing rubes for the next four years. I wonder how long until he has a book out? Like I said earlier: can't help fools.
	__________________ Visit my blog: The Skeptical Teacher The Times They Are A-Changin'

27th November 2012, 12:50 PM	#169
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,498	Originally Posted by zeggman That's not really true. Even Fox News offers a microphone to lots of liberals, if only to give Gretchen Carlson a good brow-furrowing "last word". Yes, even some friends of mine.
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