He! Let's build apartments on an important battlefield! - Page 2

dafydd · 30th January 2013, 03:04 AM

Originally Posted by Hubert Cumberdale

If it was in the UK, we'd have built a supermarket on it by now

Yep, the living are more important than the dead.

Hazel · 30th January 2013, 04:11 AM

Originally Posted by bruto

And as usual in such threads, I find myself reminded of a poem by one of my favorite authors:

REALITY DEMANDS, by Wislawa Szymborska

Oh! What a wonderful picture of Planet Earth. Tell me. The first time you read this, did you sit for five minutes with your mind in a deep brown study? I did. He makes us think without telling us what to think! Who is Wislawa Szymborska? I never heard of him. What a poet he is! Hard to get away from him.

I've gone off-topic, I know, but one thing leads to another. I've much to do today but I fear I've just gone astray. Thank you so very much.

Hazel · 30th January 2013, 04:18 AM

Originally Posted by kookbreaker

A lot of Revolutionary Battlefields are gone or endangered as well. In fairness a lot of the development was simple growth in the 19th century:

There's little left of Bunker/Breeds Hill. A monument with a small patch of land around it.

Almost all the NY battlefields are developed over.

In NJ, Monmouth is preserved but developers constantly beg to develop right to the edge of the state park. Fort Mercer is a park, but none of the original fort remains. Trenton has the Barracks and nothing else. Princeton preserved a few fields.

In PA, Brandywine is protected but again developers try to build right to the edge. Germantown has the Chew house still standing, the area around it has a few historical houses, but the area was developed as a city might expect over the years. Fort Mifflin remains, but only because it was an active for for many years. Much of its history & construction is not original.

Down south, the Camden battlefield is preserved. I do not know what threats it faces. King's Mountain is a National Park, and may be too far from civilization to be threatened. Yorktown is part of the whole 'Colonial Williamsburg/Yorktown/Jamestown' history for profit region and is probably safe to some degree, although much of Williamburg is rebuilds.

If we must commemorate wars (don't get me started!), it is good to see someone remembering other than the War Between the States.

Aepervius · 30th January 2013, 05:24 AM

Originally Posted by Doubt

Disney wanted to build a theme park near Gettysburg. It took quite a bit of effort by people from all parts of the US to get them to drop the plan. They were going to have civil war themed things at the park.

Good luck trying to stop businesses with no respect for history.

"Business" are amoral. "business" would profit on slavery (and some hold they do by using factory suppliers which use child labor) as long as it brings a bit more profit. If killing puppies and kitten in gruesome horrible painful way was profitable we would have a "kitty-killy mart" by now.

Hazel · 30th January 2013, 05:41 AM

Originally Posted by Aepervius

"Business" are amoral. "business" would profit on slavery (and some hold they do by using factory suppliers which use child labor) as long as it brings a bit more profit. If killing puppies and kitten in gruesome horrible painful way was profitable we would have a "kitty-killy mart" by now.

Well said, Aepervius. And twice that I recall (probably more often), wars have pulled us out of depressions. Having said that, I am suddenly asking myself - was that only in America? Am I right that it wasn't so true in Europe where the war was actually fought? Wasn't recovery more slow there?

bruto · 30th January 2013, 05:48 AM

Originally Posted by Hazel

Oh! What a wonderful picture of Planet Earth. Tell me. The first time you read this, did you sit for five minutes with your mind in a deep brown study? I did. He makes us think without telling us what to think! Who is Wislawa Szymborska? I never heard of him. What a poet he is! Hard to get away from him.

I've gone off-topic, I know, but one thing leads to another. I've much to do today but I fear I've just gone astray. Thank you so very much.

Wislawa Szymborska, you'll be glad to know, is a woman. Or she was. Alas, she died about a year ago. She won a Nobel Prize in 1996. Well worth finding the collected works, because there's a lot more that's good, and that will leave you thinking about a lot of things, although my edition, at least, only goes to 1997, and she kept writing long after. All that we read is translated from the Polish, but it certainly seems to make the transition well.

If you do a Google search, a lot will show up, but translated versions of some poems will vary.

Hazel · 30th January 2013, 05:53 AM

Originally Posted by bruto

Wislawa Szymborska, you'll be glad to know, is a woman. Or she was. Alas, she died about a year ago. She won a Nobel Prize in 1996. Well worth finding the collected works, because there's a lot more that's good, and that will leave you thinking about a lot of things, although my edition, at least, only goes to 1997, and she kept writing long after. All that we read is translated from the Polish, but it certainly seems to make the transition well.

If you do a Google search, a lot will show up, but translated versions of some poems will vary.

Thank you. I'll be sending a new book order soon and shall add one of hers to the list.

SpitfireIX · 30th January 2013, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by dafydd

Yep, the living are more important than the dead.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate—we can not consecrate—we can not hallow—this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they here gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

Polaris · 1st February 2013, 06:07 AM

Originally Posted by fitzgibbon

Bit of a sad comment. Obviously, not every battle of every war can or should be preserved for posterity. Otherwise we'd be worrying about tromping on important corpses all the time. Bit it's not all-or-nothing either. We have to recognise the important engagements and give them their due notice otherwise we run the risk of forgetting what it was that made them notable and important

Fitz

*French accent mode*

"We named it 'Omaha Beach Miniature Golf', what else do you Americans want?!"

*End French accent mode*.

At least the bunkers, hedgehogs, Tobruks and witness houses are still there, even if the shingle is now all sand and the seawall is gone. The bunkers even still have their battle damage and PAK 75s.

Hazel · 1st February 2013, 06:23 AM

Originally Posted by fitzgibbon

Bit of a sad comment. Obviously, not every battle of every war can or should be preserved for posterity. Otherwise we'd be worrying about tromping on important corpses all the time. Bit it's not all-or-nothing either. We have to recognise the important engagements and give them their due notice otherwise we run the risk of forgetting what it was that made them notable and important

Fitz

"Important engagements". How many of you saw mention of Pearl Harbor in your local newspapers last December? How many saw it mentioined anywhere? How many get blank stares when you say "I was at Pearl Harbor" or "My father was at Pearl Harbor"?

It's all right, Fitz. I do understand what you are saying. It's just a thought that crosses my mind every 7 December and I deliberately search the papers or listen to NPR just to see or hear ---- nothing.

Spindrift · 1st February 2013, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by Hazel

"Important engagements". How many of you saw mention of Pearl Harbor in your local newspapers last December? How many saw it mentioined anywhere? How many get blank stares when you say "I was at Pearl Harbor" or "My father was at Pearl Harbor"?

It's all right, Fitz. I do understand what you are saying. It's just a thought that crosses my mind every 7 December and I deliberately search the papers or listen to NPR just to see or hear ---- nothing.

You really run into a lot of people who don't know about Pearl Harbor? Can't say as I do.

My local area newspaper always runs an article, even the weekly paper mentions it.

Hazel · 1st February 2013, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by Spindrift

You really run into a lot of people who don't know about Pearl Harbor? Can't say as I do.

My local area newspaper always runs an article, even the weekly paper mentions it.

Some papers do, yes. Some don't. It's just something I watch. On the other hand, there are a lot of things I don't remember. So----- But, yes, I think it is being remember less and less often. More so, WW I.

dudalb · 5th February 2013, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by Polaris

*French accent mode*

"We named it 'Omaha Beach Miniature Golf', what else do you Americans want?!"

*End French accent mode*.

At least the bunkers, hedgehogs, Tobruks and witness houses are still there, even if the shingle is now all sand and the seawall is gone. The bunkers even still have their battle damage and PAK 75s.

And apparently Bosworth Battlefield was made into a Parking Lot....

Ryokan · 5th February 2013, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

And apparently Bosworth Battlefield was made into a Parking Lot....

I actually looked around for a 'Like'-button.

Quoting you will have to do..

30th January 2013, 03:04 AM	#41
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,456	Originally Posted by Hubert Cumberdale If it was in the UK, we'd have built a supermarket on it by now Yep, the living are more important than the dead.
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

30th January 2013, 04:11 AM	#42
Hazel Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Just outside of St. Louis also Posts: 1,228	Originally Posted by bruto And as usual in such threads, I find myself reminded of a poem by one of my favorite authors: REALITY DEMANDS, by Wislawa Szymborska Oh! What a wonderful picture of Planet Earth. Tell me. The first time you read this, did you sit for five minutes with your mind in a deep brown study? I did. He makes us think without telling us what to think! Who is Wislawa Szymborska? I never heard of him. What a poet he is! Hard to get away from him. I've gone off-topic, I know, but one thing leads to another. I've much to do today but I fear I've just gone astray. Thank you so very much.
	__________________ Disbelief in magic can force a poor soul into believing in government and business. (Tom Robbins, 1976)

30th January 2013, 04:18 AM	#43
Hazel Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Just outside of St. Louis also Posts: 1,228	Originally Posted by kookbreaker A lot of Revolutionary Battlefields are gone or endangered as well. In fairness a lot of the development was simple growth in the 19th century: There's little left of Bunker/Breeds Hill. A monument with a small patch of land around it. Almost all the NY battlefields are developed over. In NJ, Monmouth is preserved but developers constantly beg to develop right to the edge of the state park. Fort Mercer is a park, but none of the original fort remains. Trenton has the Barracks and nothing else. Princeton preserved a few fields. In PA, Brandywine is protected but again developers try to build right to the edge. Germantown has the Chew house still standing, the area around it has a few historical houses, but the area was developed as a city might expect over the years. Fort Mifflin remains, but only because it was an active for for many years. Much of its history & construction is not original. Down south, the Camden battlefield is preserved. I do not know what threats it faces. King's Mountain is a National Park, and may be too far from civilization to be threatened. Yorktown is part of the whole 'Colonial Williamsburg/Yorktown/Jamestown' history for profit region and is probably safe to some degree, although much of Williamburg is rebuilds. If we must commemorate wars (don't get me started!), it is good to see someone remembering other than the War Between the States.
	__________________ Disbelief in magic can force a poor soul into believing in government and business. (Tom Robbins, 1976)

30th January 2013, 05:24 AM	#44
Aepervius Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bierland. I mean , germany. Posts: 7,750	Originally Posted by Doubt Disney wanted to build a theme park near Gettysburg. It took quite a bit of effort by people from all parts of the US to get them to drop the plan. They were going to have civil war themed things at the park. Good luck trying to stop businesses with no respect for history. "Business" are amoral. "business" would profit on slavery (and some hold they do by using factory suppliers which use child labor) as long as it brings a bit more profit. If killing puppies and kitten in gruesome horrible painful way was profitable we would have a "kitty-killy mart" by now.
	__________________ Omnes Blessant Ultima necat "I want, and this is my last and most dear wish, I want that the last of the king be strangled with the guts of the last priest" (Jean Meslier / 1664-1729 / Testament) A very early french atheist, a catholic priest in life. Last edited by Aepervius; 30th January 2013 at 05:27 AM.

30th January 2013, 05:41 AM	#45
Hazel Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Just outside of St. Louis also Posts: 1,228	Originally Posted by Aepervius "Business" are amoral. "business" would profit on slavery (and some hold they do by using factory suppliers which use child labor) as long as it brings a bit more profit. If killing puppies and kitten in gruesome horrible painful way was profitable we would have a "kitty-killy mart" by now. Well said, Aepervius. And twice that I recall (probably more often), wars have pulled us out of depressions. Having said that, I am suddenly asking myself - was that only in America? Am I right that it wasn't so true in Europe where the war was actually fought? Wasn't recovery more slow there?
	__________________ Disbelief in magic can force a poor soul into believing in government and business. (Tom Robbins, 1976)

30th January 2013, 05:48 AM	#46
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 11,181	Originally Posted by Hazel Oh! What a wonderful picture of Planet Earth. Tell me. The first time you read this, did you sit for five minutes with your mind in a deep brown study? I did. He makes us think without telling us what to think! Who is Wislawa Szymborska? I never heard of him. What a poet he is! Hard to get away from him. I've gone off-topic, I know, but one thing leads to another. I've much to do today but I fear I've just gone astray. Thank you so very much. Wislawa Szymborska, you'll be glad to know, is a woman. Or she was. Alas, she died about a year ago. She won a Nobel Prize in 1996. Well worth finding the collected works, because there's a lot more that's good, and that will leave you thinking about a lot of things, although my edition, at least, only goes to 1997, and she kept writing long after. All that we read is translated from the Polish, but it certainly seems to make the transition well. If you do a Google search, a lot will show up, but translated versions of some poems will vary.
	__________________ "Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding.(Samuel Johnson) The gods are less for their love of praise....(Wendell Berry)

30th January 2013, 05:53 AM	#47
Hazel Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Just outside of St. Louis also Posts: 1,228	Originally Posted by bruto Wislawa Szymborska, you'll be glad to know, is a woman. Or she was. Alas, she died about a year ago. She won a Nobel Prize in 1996. Well worth finding the collected works, because there's a lot more that's good, and that will leave you thinking about a lot of things, although my edition, at least, only goes to 1997, and she kept writing long after. All that we read is translated from the Polish, but it certainly seems to make the transition well. If you do a Google search, a lot will show up, but translated versions of some poems will vary. Thank you. I'll be sending a new book order soon and shall add one of hers to the list.
	__________________ Disbelief in magic can force a poor soul into believing in government and business. (Tom Robbins, 1976)

30th January 2013, 06:15 PM	#48
SpitfireIX Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA Posts: 2,830	Originally Posted by dafydd Yep, the living are more important than the dead. But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate—we can not consecrate—we can not hallow—this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they here gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
	__________________ Handy responses to conspiracy theorists' claims: 1) "I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." --Charles Babbage 2) "This isn't right. This isn't even wrong." --Wolfgang Pauli 3) "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." --Inigo Montoya

1st February 2013, 06:07 AM	#49
Polaris Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,167	Originally Posted by fitzgibbon Bit of a sad comment. Obviously, not every battle of every war can or should be preserved for posterity. Otherwise we'd be worrying about tromping on important corpses all the time. Bit it's not all-or-nothing either. We have to recognise the important engagements and give them their due notice otherwise we run the risk of forgetting what it was that made them notable and important Fitz French accent mode "We named it 'Omaha Beach Miniature Golf', what else do you Americans want?!" End French accent mode. At least the bunkers, hedgehogs, Tobruks and witness houses are still there, even if the shingle is now all sand and the seawall is gone. The bunkers even still have their battle damage and PAK 75s.
Polaris Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,167	__________________ "There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar "Roy Moore of Alabama. The world would absolutely benefit by him being run over by any vehicle." - Lowpro

1st February 2013, 06:23 AM	#50
Hazel Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Just outside of St. Louis also Posts: 1,228	Originally Posted by fitzgibbon Bit of a sad comment. Obviously, not every battle of every war can or should be preserved for posterity. Otherwise we'd be worrying about tromping on important corpses all the time. Bit it's not all-or-nothing either. We have to recognise the important engagements and give them their due notice otherwise we run the risk of forgetting what it was that made them notable and important Fitz "Important engagements". How many of you saw mention of Pearl Harbor in your local newspapers last December? How many saw it mentioined anywhere? How many get blank stares when you say "I was at Pearl Harbor" or "My father was at Pearl Harbor"? It's all right, Fitz. I do understand what you are saying. It's just a thought that crosses my mind every 7 December and I deliberately search the papers or listen to NPR just to see or hear ---- nothing.
	__________________ Disbelief in magic can force a poor soul into believing in government and business. (Tom Robbins, 1976)

1st February 2013, 11:06 AM	#51
Spindrift Enturbulator Extraordinaire Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Right here! Posts: 8,449	Originally Posted by Hazel "Important engagements". How many of you saw mention of Pearl Harbor in your local newspapers last December? How many saw it mentioined anywhere? How many get blank stares when you say "I was at Pearl Harbor" or "My father was at Pearl Harbor"? It's all right, Fitz. I do understand what you are saying. It's just a thought that crosses my mind every 7 December and I deliberately search the papers or listen to NPR just to see or hear ---- nothing. You really run into a lot of people who don't know about Pearl Harbor? Can't say as I do. My local area newspaper always runs an article, even the weekly paper mentions it.
	__________________ I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black.

1st February 2013, 11:38 AM	#52
Hazel Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Just outside of St. Louis also Posts: 1,228	Originally Posted by Spindrift You really run into a lot of people who don't know about Pearl Harbor? Can't say as I do. My local area newspaper always runs an article, even the weekly paper mentions it. Some papers do, yes. Some don't. It's just something I watch. On the other hand, there are a lot of things I don't remember. So----- But, yes, I think it is being remember less and less often. More so, WW I.
	__________________ Disbelief in magic can force a poor soul into believing in government and business. (Tom Robbins, 1976)

5th February 2013, 09:50 AM	#53
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 22,797	Originally Posted by Polaris French accent mode "We named it 'Omaha Beach Miniature Golf', what else do you Americans want?!" End French accent mode. At least the bunkers, hedgehogs, Tobruks and witness houses are still there, even if the shingle is now all sand and the seawall is gone. The bunkers even still have their battle damage and PAK 75s. And apparently Bosworth Battlefield was made into a Parking Lot....

5th February 2013, 01:43 PM	#54
Ryokan Insert something funny here Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Norway Posts: 8,172	Originally Posted by dudalb And apparently Bosworth Battlefield was made into a Parking Lot.... I actually looked around for a 'Like'-button. Quoting you will have to do..