Reincarnation..... - Page 3

SezMe · 9th August 2012, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by Toontown

Lead by example. Support your claim that you successfully imagined not-existing.

At the risk of getting all wet in this pissing contest, I have to ask what the hell this means. He's supposed to provide evidence that he imagined something? That's nuts.

mike3 · 9th August 2012, 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by SezMe

At the risk of getting all wet in this pissing contest, I have to ask what the hell this means. He's supposed to provide evidence that he imagined something? That's nuts.

And just what on earth would be the form such evidence would take, anyway?!

steve s · 9th August 2012, 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by Mark6

She claimed to have been Cleopatra's maid in past life?

Claiming to be someone famous (like Cleopatra or Tutankhamun) has been done to death so they always claim to be someone close to the famous person. But no one ever claims to have been a common slave working in the fields.

Steve S

ExMinister · 9th August 2012, 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by steve s

Claiming to be someone famous (like Cleopatra or Tutankhamun) has been done to death so they always claim to be someone close to the famous person. But no one ever claims to have been a common slave working in the fields.

Steve S

Yes, they do. Slaves, shoe peddlers, impoverished farmers, beggars...

Toontown · 9th August 2012, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by SezMe

At the risk of getting all wet in this pissing contest, I have to ask what the hell this means. He's supposed to provide evidence that he imagined something? That's nuts.

I don't think that's necessary. I think I've adequately explained why I wouldn't bet that he actually imagined not-existing.

I'm sure he imagined something. But I'm equally sure whatever he imagined wasn't "it". Which is what I said in the first place, which has since been twisted around shamelessly.

And I did not say "provide evidence" either. I said support the claim.

Toontown · 9th August 2012, 07:43 PM

Just curious...if imagining nothing at all makes a fellow's brain puke, what effect will Todd Rundgren's "Black Mariah" have on the unsuspecting guinea pig? A "Black Mariah" is much scarier than nothing at all. It scared him so, he wrote a spooky song about it. With spooky guitar whines and screeches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4vml...eature=related

pakeha · 9th August 2012, 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by Bikewer

I think it was in one of Martin Gardner's books... At any rate, I read about a case where a young woman in the UK created quite a stir by recalling in great detail a past life during the time of Roman occupation; long about Hadrian's rule.
She was widely interviewed and had considerable and apparently accurate knowledge of the time, and denied ever being exposed to any such.
However, one of the interviews rang a bell with someone who had read a book... A historical novel on the period.
A check of the library in the small town revealed that she had indeed checked the volume out when she was quite young... And had apparently completely forgotten about it. Some of the items from her interviews were almost word-for-word....

It is amazing how much we absorb, and how much we forget. I've read literally thousands of books in my 65 years, and would commonly devour at least several every couple of weeks as a kid... I'd come back from the library with a stack and read 'em all in the two-week lending period.
I could only tell you the title or plot lines of a few at this point.
This would be the same with young children who, as I said earlier, absorb speech like a sponge as little ones.

Jane Evans.
Here's her case:
http://www.mythany.com/afterlife/rei...ed-before.html

SezMe · 9th August 2012, 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by Toontown

And I did not say "provide evidence" either. I said support the claim.

How would he provide support for his claim without producing some evidence?

BTW, this might be a distraction. I take no position on the substance of your discussion.

Piscivore · 9th August 2012, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by Toontown

Just curious...if imagining nothing at all makes a fellow's brain puke, what effect will Todd Rundgren's "Black Mariah" have on the unsuspecting guinea pig?

Meh.

Quote:

A "Black Mariah" is much scarier than nothing at all.

Which? The large black lady, the police wagon, or the racehorse?

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-bla1.htm

Quote:

It scared him so, he wrote a spooky song about it. With spooky guitar whines and screeches.

Not what I'd call "spooky", but good for him. How are you certain this song is meant to be documentation of an actual event, and not just a song?

Anyway, "scary" is subjective, and I didn't say the experience scared me in the first place.

Piscivore · 9th August 2012, 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by Toontown

I don't think that's necessary. I think I've adequately explained why I wouldn't bet that he actually imagined not-existing.

Simply by asserting it is impossible.

Quote:

I'm sure he imagined something. But I'm equally sure whatever he imagined wasn't "it".

And upon what is your certainty based? That you think it is "impossible" to imagine something that does not exist?

Quote:

And I did not say "provide evidence" either. I said support the claim.

Imagination:
4. the product of imagining; a conception or mental creation, often a baseless or fanciful one.

Toontown · 10th August 2012, 05:57 AM

Originally Posted by Piscivore

Simply by asserting it is impossible.

You made an extraordinary claim. I don't believe it. Get over it.

Originally Posted by Piscivore

And upon what is your certainty based? That you think it is "impossible" to imagine something that does not exist?

It is impossibly contradictory to imagine being something that does not exist. The most you could do is fake it, and then argue about it like a stubborn mule for 96 hours.

But you're doing a great job of proving my earlier point that attempting to discuss such matters here is a waste of time. It seems that poster boys are seldom in short supply.

Originally Posted by Piscivore

Imagination:
4. the product of imagining; a conception or mental creation, often a baseless or fanciful one.

So? As I said to begin with: "If you imagined anything at at all, that wasn't it."

You've said nothing that refutes that. You simply escalated it into a pointless argument that you can't win.

Toontown · 10th August 2012, 06:13 AM

LIke I said. Reality is far more strange and incomprehensible than any woo ever could be. To wit:

Imagine someone who does not exist. Now imagine being the imaginary someone who does not exist.

Now imagine someone else asserting that it can't be done.

Now imagine contrarily asserting that you have in fact succeeded in doing so.

Now imagine someone else asserting that whatever you imagined was definitively not "it".

Now imagine becoming all puffed up and arguing over it for a long time.

Presto! You are Piscavore!

Toontown · 10th August 2012, 06:36 AM

Originally Posted by SezMe

How would he provide support for his claim without producing some evidence?

I don't know how he will do it. He can't use reason or logic. He has no evidence. It is doubtful that he can describe his subjective experience. The claimed subjective experience is definitively indescribable.

He wanted to know whether I was going to support my assertions, in an obvious evasion. I asked him to lead by example.

Piscivore · 10th August 2012, 07:35 AM

Originally Posted by Toontown

It is impossibly contradictory to imagine being something that does not exist.

I didn't say I imagined "being something" that didn't exist. If that's the source of your confusion, rest assured that's not what I said.

I said I imagined the thing I "be" did not exist.

Hokulele · 10th August 2012, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by Toontown

I don't know how he will do it. He can't use reason or logic. He has no evidence. It is doubtful that he can describe his subjective experience. The claimed subjective experience is definitively indescribable.

He wanted to know whether I was going to support my assertions, in an obvious evasion. I asked him to lead by example.

Ah, by your focus on the term "sentient" and now this post, are you talking about non-existence in a purely experiential sense rather than in an objective sense? Also, it seems as if you are arguing not that Piscivore can imagine non-existence, but that he cannot accurately imagine non-existence, in an experiential sense. Is this true?

Toontown · 10th August 2012, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by Hokulele

Ah, by your focus on the term "sentient" and now this post, are you talking about non-existence in a purely experiential sense rather than in an objective sense? Also, it seems as if you are arguing not that Piscivore can imagine non-existence, but that he cannot accurately imagine non-existence, in an experiential sense. Is this true?

Yes.

I confess to not being in the habit of thinking of wrongly picturing a condition in one's mind as being equivalent to actually imagining the condition.

At any rate, the entire diversion is pointless, and I have completely lost interest in attempting to discuss the matter, particularly in view of my originally stated opinion:

"So you can probably forget everything everyone says about the matter. No one knows squat about the subject. They invent false paradigms to explain the presumably momentary flashes of subjective light seemingly residing between the birth and death of a random monkey-man. Various false and unsupportable yarns are spun, and clung to stubbornly. All of which can be confidently ruled out.

Which very probably only leaves possibilities which are very likely beyond your ability to imagine. Like the "charm" of a quark."

Toontown · 10th August 2012, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by Piscivore

I didn't say I imagined "being something" that didn't exist. If that's the source of your confusion, rest assured that's not what I said.

I said I imagined the thing I "be" did not exist.

How is that different from not imagining anything? Once again, my seminal comment was "If you imagined anything at all, that wasn't it."

You could not have imagined not-existing, since, by your own admission, you imagined something. And if you didn't imagine anything, then you didn't imagine not-existing either.

Your claim is that you have done something paradoxical, which puts you up against an unbeatable "Black Mariah" of your own making.

Black Mariah,
You never let go
You scare me so

BTW, they call the wind "Mariah".

Jimi Hendrix once posed the question:

Will the wind ever remember all the names it has blown in the past?

And the Old Man, with his crutch, and his wisdom, whispered "No...this will be the last."

But the wind, Jimi insisted, cries "Mary!"

Piscivore · 10th August 2012, 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by Toontown

How is that different from not imagining anything?

One is imagining, one is not imagining.

Quote:

Black Mariah,
You never let go
You scare me so

BTW, they call the wind "Mariah".

Jimi Hendrix once posed the question:

Will the wind ever remember all the names it has blown in the past?

And the Old Man, with his crutch, and his wisdom, whispered "No...this will be the last."

But the wind, Jimi insisted, cries "Mary!"

Let's all pretend that made sense. How interesting I'm re-reading "A Scanner Darkly" right now. Déjà vu.

Hokulele · 10th August 2012, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by Toontown

Yes.

I confess to not being in the habit of thinking of wrongly picturing a condition in one's mind as being equivalent to actually imagining the condition.

OK, so you are talking about a narrative experience, not about the objective condition of non-existence. As such, the best one could do would be to describe the process of moving from existence to non-existence, which many others have done in the past. Here is a good example from Piggy:

Originally Posted by Piggy

As some of y'all know from other threads, I recently had a drain-snake put up my veins and a little piece of my heart burnt out. I reckon every adventure has its lessons, and here -- for whatever they're worth (consider that they're offered freely) -- are mine....

<snip>

This particular procedure, you have to be awake for. Sedated, but awake, and able to talk to the doctors.

<snip>

At one point, my blood pressure and heart rate took a nosedive and it was scramble time. They brought me back up -- of course, else no Piggy postie -- but for a while there, I was slipping away.

Someone here on the forum asked me about it, what was going through my mind. And you know, I hadn't really thought about it at all. It was what it was, as the current phrase goes.

Today I was describing it to a friend. He said, "Was it like you just detached from things?" And I had to say, no... the process wasn't like that at all. Because this "I" thing was going away, breaking up. It wasn't intact, to be detached from anything.

It was like I was dissolving. Like my self -- whatever this is that still feels like "me" from childhood through adolescence and adulthood and all the changes... sort of like the old joke about the axe that's only had to have its handle replaced three times and the blade replaced twice -- as if that self were a cloud that was in the process of dispersing.

And I had no opinion about it whatsoever. It was just happening.

I felt it happening. I could hear all the alarms going off -- which, by the way, are much louder and more insistent than the simple flatline beep you hear in the movies. I could see everyone rushing around and pushing things into the IV and moving equipment and speaking tersely and quickly at each other. And meanwhile, I was breaking up, like a signal losing power.

Which was neither good nor bad nor anything else.

Now, before this procedure, I was absolutely terrified of death. Not dying, but of being dead. Or, more correctly, of not being. The thought of no longer existing filled me with a very fundamental evolutionary dread.

I don't feel that now.

Perhaps that's temporary, I don't know.

But I do know that if dying turns out to be anything like what I experienced for those brief moments in the hospital, I have no fear of that.

I'm not exactly sure what to do with that new knowledge.

But I'm sure I'll think of something.

Although I have not had the experience Piggy did (nor that Piscivore did), I "experienced" non-existence when I had surgery. Going under general anaethestic is nothing like simply going to sleep. It is a full discontinuity in existence, a splice in the film of life. So yes, I can imagine and describe non-existence, but of course it isn't a narrative, which is how most people describe and imagine what we commonly call an "experience".

I suppose we can now quibble about whether or not I really "existed" while I was out.

Bikewer · 10th August 2012, 12:42 PM

I always thought that from an entirely philosophical standpoint, reincarnation made more sense than the typical Abrahamic "one-shot lifetime" situation.
The one-shot might be fine from a standpoint of cosmic justice if everyone had the same shot....
But we don't. Some folks are raised into wealth and privlege and gently educated and inculcated with good moral underpinnings.. And others are born into tragic circumstances and die young and horribly.
Millions and millions die as infants or young children...
Trying to accomodate some sort of justice scheme for this situation has accounted for a gread deal of ad-hoc thinking over the centuries....

At least reincarnation gives you the chance to gradually refine yourself over the centuries.

But what's the point? Then it just seems like some kind of RPG where you gradually level-up to the point where you can get your big reward or kill off the ultimate "big boss". (or go to heaven or achieve oneness with the universe or whatever)
Then what? Thousands of increasingly less-miserable lives only to achieve... What?

Toontown · 10th August 2012, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by Piscivore

One is imagining, one is not imagining.

Let's all pretend that made sense. How interesting I'm re-reading "A Scanner Darkly" right now. Déjà vu.

You got the answer you were stumping for, and promptly evaded it. Just like I knew you would.

Look, If you can't even take "I don't believe you" for an answer without trying to make the OJ case out of it, I'm certainly not going to bust my ass trying to keep you happy, jumping through all your hoops, answering all your ill-intentioned little questions.

Bottom line: If you imagined anything at all, that wasn't it.

Beelzebuddy · 10th August 2012, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by Bikewer

But what's the point? Then it just seems like some kind of RPG where you gradually level-up to the point where you can get your big reward or kill off the ultimate "big boss". (or go to heaven or achieve oneness with the universe or whatever)
Then what? Thousands of increasingly less-miserable lives only to achieve... What?

Green drops.

Totally worth it.

Mark6 · 10th August 2012, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by steve s

Claiming to be someone famous (like Cleopatra or Tutankhamun) has been done to death so they always claim to be someone close to the famous person. But no one ever claims to have been a common slave working in the fields.

Would be interesting to see a claim of having been in past life someone moderately important, but of whom there is no record whatsoever. Like a Pict chief circa 400 B.C., or a chief of some tribe which disappeared from history entirely.

Not saying I would believe it, but psychology of such claim would be interesting. "No, historians cannot check my story because nothing else survived. But I can tell them a few things!"

Piscivore · 10th August 2012, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by Toontown

You got the answer you were stumping for, and promptly evaded it.

I "evaded" the answer... riiight. That's meaningful.

If that's what that cobbled-together, stream-of-consciouness cluster of hippy lyrics was meant to be I don't know what you were trying to say. At all. And I really don't care. Psychedelia holds no truths for me. And I have no idea what the "Black Maria" you keep referencing is. Some kind of hallucinogen, I suppose.

Quote:

Look, If you can't even take "I don't believe you" for an answer without trying to make the OJ case out of it, I'm certainly not going to bust my ass trying to keep you happy, jumping through all your hoops, answering all your ill-intentioned little questions.

My last few posts haven't asked you anything. I don't think you've got anything coherent to give me. I've been answering your questions.

Quote:

Bottom line: If you imagined anything at all, that wasn't it.

If you say so.

Toontown · 10th August 2012, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by Piscivore

I "evaded" the answer... riiight. That's meaningful.

If that's what that cobbled-together, stream-of-consciouness cluster of hippy lyrics was meant to be I don't know what you were trying to say.

You know precisely what I intended to say, because that is precisely the part you edited out and ignored. Just like I knew you would.

This part: "You could not have imagined not-existing, since, by your own admission, you imagined something. And if you didn't imagine anything, then you didn't imagine not-existing either. Your claim is that you have done something paradoxical*...< annoying reference to "Black Mariah" snipped >"

That's the only part you left out. You were careful to leave the "hippy lyrics" in. And you left in the sentence you made the smarmy, meaningless reply to.

*contradictory

Originally Posted by Piscivore

Psychedelia holds no truths for me. And I have no idea what the "Black Maria" you keep referencing is. Some kind of hallucinogen, I suppose.

It's probably Rundgren's metaphor for the universe, not that you care. I think he was afraid of it. He also wrote a related one about entropy, seemed to know what it was, and seemed quite frightened of it as well.

At that point any remaining dregs of interest on my part had
faded, leaving only a desultory interest in having a little fun.

Toontown · 10th August 2012, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by Hokulele

Although I have not had the experience Piggy did (nor that Piscivore did), I "experienced" non-existence when I had surgery. Going under general anaethestic is nothing like simply going to sleep. It is a full discontinuity in existence, a splice in the film of life. So yes, I can imagine and describe non-existence, but of course it isn't a narrative, which is how most people describe and imagine what we commonly call an "experience".

I suppose we can now quibble about whether or not I really "existed" while I was out.

You existed while you were out. A brief discontinuity of awareness hardly strikes me as being at all like not existing.

I've been under anesthetic, and it was never as if I did not exist. At most, it was as if the time period during which I was out did not exist. I recall the moments immediately before going under, followed immediately by awakening. There was no experience of nonexistence. Nor could there be. Definitively.

Sorry. That's just not nonexistence.

Incidentally, there was also a 14.7 billion year period before my birth. I have nothing to report or imagine about that time period. My guess is that's because, as a sentient being, I am incapable of experiencing nonexistence. Definitively. Where I am, nonexistence is not. Where nonexistence is, I am not. So I'm really having some trouble understanding what all this claiming to have experienced or imagined nonexistence is about.

I suspect it's just because I said it's impossible. So, I suppose, if the doomed discussion is to continue, a tedious argument over the issue will have to continue for a number of days, signifying nothing, until another diversion draws attention. I suppose that, within a year, some may have reached some agreement as to whether nonexistence can be experienced or imagined or not. Whether the conclusion, if it is ever reached, will be correct or not, will probably be no better than a coin toss.

So we might as well just flip a coin. Or ask A.L.I.C.E. We'll get as much accomplished, much more quickly.

Piscivore · 10th August 2012, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by Toontown

Or ask A.L.I.C.E. We'll get as much accomplished, much more quickly.

Or at least carry all our stuff well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-pur...ying_Equipment

Cainkane1 · 10th August 2012, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by IndianGuessWhichKind

just curious to see if anyone here believes in reincarnation...

Not me.

Caper · 10th August 2012, 11:07 PM

I don't think I believe in reincarnation... actually I don't. But the more I learn about the study of science the more I'm not sure. I mean.... multiverse's, time travel actually being theoretically possible. The mere fact we are here... it kind of wows me sometimes.

It's not going to make me go to church or anything.... but there's enough out there wowing me to hold some hope that when I click off I might just be getting started.

After all, if there is time travel (back in time) and 300 years go by... don't I have to exist somewhere in order for someone to travel back to me? Even if I'm just doing the same thing as I am now?

Pup · 11th August 2012, 03:34 AM

Originally Posted by Caper

After all, if there is time travel (back in time) and 300 years go by... don't I have to exist somewhere in order for someone to travel back to me? Even if I'm just doing the same thing as I am now?

Not following. That's like saying, if people can travel to Cleveland, don't I have to be in Cleveland for someone to visit me?

Why do you have an assumption that you'll be wherever someone, theoretically, could travel to--let alone that human time travel is possible?

dafydd · 12th August 2012, 03:34 AM

Originally Posted by Caper

After all, if there is time travel (back in time) and 300 years go by... don't I have to exist somewhere in order for someone to travel back to me? Even if I'm just doing the same thing as I am now?

Pardon?

Multivac · 24th August 2012, 06:29 AM

No, I do not believe in reincarnation, and never have.

Originally Posted by IndianGuessWhichKind

Just makes more sense than heaven/hell OR oblivion- can you imagine not existing at all?

It also fits in the cycle of things- energy cannot be created nor destroyed; just recycled so our souls get recycled into other human beings....

I also have vague fleeting memories from a previous life....

In the words of John Lennon:

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people living for today

Multivac · 24th August 2012, 06:32 AM

Originally Posted by sackett

Souls can divide, thus providing new souls for the soon-to-be born.

You probably think I read that on the back of a Celestial Seasonings box, but I didn't.

A couple of questions if you don't mind.

1) What makes you think that souls exist?
2) If a sould divides, while waiting for a new body to inhabit, how and where does it exist.

Thanks in advance

sackett · 24th August 2012, 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by Multivac

A couple of questions if you don't mind.

1) What makes you think that souls exist?
2) If a sould divides, while waiting for a new body to inhabit, how and where does it exist.

Thanks in advance

Just kidding, Multi ole pal.

Come to think of it, Celest. Seasons. box copy might very well be my long-forgotten source. There's not much that Moe won't print if he thinks it schmoozes his customer base.

9th August 2012, 06:16 PM	#82
mike3 Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 1,942	Originally Posted by SezMe At the risk of getting all wet in this pissing contest, I have to ask what the hell this means. He's supposed to provide evidence that he imagined something? That's nuts. And just what on earth would be the form such evidence would take, anyway?!
mike3 Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 1,942	__________________ “Ego is subversive and devolutionary, truly destructive and terrible; ego is the generator of privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. Ego is the fire that burns within the pit of hell, devouring and cosuming everything that enters and leaving utterly nothing behind. Ego is horrible, cruel, and restraining, the darkness of the world, and the doom and bane of man.” – a reaction to that famous Bertrand Russell quote.

9th August 2012, 06:22 PM	#83
steve s Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,661	Originally Posted by Mark6 She claimed to have been Cleopatra's maid in past life? Claiming to be someone famous (like Cleopatra or Tutankhamun) has been done to death so they always claim to be someone close to the famous person. But no one ever claims to have been a common slave working in the fields. Steve S
steve s Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,661	__________________ "Nature abhors a moron." -- H. L. Mencken

9th August 2012, 06:27 PM	#84
ExMinister RSL Acolyte Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 2,749	Originally Posted by steve s Claiming to be someone famous (like Cleopatra or Tutankhamun) has been done to death so they always claim to be someone close to the famous person. But no one ever claims to have been a common slave working in the fields. Steve S Yes, they do. Slaves, shoe peddlers, impoverished farmers, beggars...
ExMinister RSL Acolyte Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 2,749	__________________ www.stopsylvia.com

9th August 2012, 06:47 PM	#85
Toontown Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,555	Originally Posted by SezMe At the risk of getting all wet in this pissing contest, I have to ask what the hell this means. He's supposed to provide evidence that he imagined something? That's nuts. I don't think that's necessary. I think I've adequately explained why I wouldn't bet that he actually imagined not-existing. I'm sure he imagined something. But I'm equally sure whatever he imagined wasn't "it". Which is what I said in the first place, which has since been twisted around shamelessly. And I did not say "provide evidence" either. I said support the claim.
Toontown Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,555	__________________ SEARCH NOW THE SPHERES PROBE THE UNIVERSE SEND BACK WORD WHAT FORCE SO IRRESISTIBLE AS THE WILL OF FREE MEN Last edited by Toontown; 9th August 2012 at 06:50 PM.

9th August 2012, 07:43 PM	#86
Toontown Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,555	Just curious...if imagining nothing at all makes a fellow's brain puke, what effect will Todd Rundgren's "Black Mariah" have on the unsuspecting guinea pig? A "Black Mariah" is much scarier than nothing at all. It scared him so, he wrote a spooky song about it. With spooky guitar whines and screeches. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4vml...eature=related
Toontown Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,555	__________________ SEARCH NOW THE SPHERES PROBE THE UNIVERSE SEND BACK WORD WHAT FORCE SO IRRESISTIBLE AS THE WILL OF FREE MEN

9th August 2012, 06:14 PM	#81
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 16,369	Originally Posted by Toontown Lead by example. Support your claim that you successfully imagined not-existing. At the risk of getting all wet in this pissing contest, I have to ask what the hell this means. He's supposed to provide evidence that he imagined something? That's nuts.

9th August 2012, 09:29 PM	#87
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 7,991	Originally Posted by Bikewer I think it was in one of Martin Gardner's books... At any rate, I read about a case where a young woman in the UK created quite a stir by recalling in great detail a past life during the time of Roman occupation; long about Hadrian's rule. She was widely interviewed and had considerable and apparently accurate knowledge of the time, and denied ever being exposed to any such. However, one of the interviews rang a bell with someone who had read a book... A historical novel on the period. A check of the library in the small town revealed that she had indeed checked the volume out when she was quite young... And had apparently completely forgotten about it. Some of the items from her interviews were almost word-for-word.... It is amazing how much we absorb, and how much we forget. I've read literally thousands of books in my 65 years, and would commonly devour at least several every couple of weeks as a kid... I'd come back from the library with a stack and read 'em all in the two-week lending period. I could only tell you the title or plot lines of a few at this point. This would be the same with young children who, as I said earlier, absorb speech like a sponge as little ones. Jane Evans. Here's her case: http://www.mythany.com/afterlife/rei...ed-before.html
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 7,991	__________________ To a conspiracy theorist, having double standards just means that they have twice as many standards. carlitos

9th August 2012, 10:02 PM	#88
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 16,369	Originally Posted by Toontown And I did not say "provide evidence" either. I said support the claim. How would he provide support for his claim without producing some evidence? BTW, this might be a distraction. I take no position on the substance of your discussion.

9th August 2012, 10:23 PM	#89
Piscivore Smelling fishy Join Date: May 2004 Location: Home is wherever I'm with you Posts: 26,459	Originally Posted by Toontown Just curious...if imagining nothing at all makes a fellow's brain puke, what effect will Todd Rundgren's "Black Mariah" have on the unsuspecting guinea pig? Meh. Quote: A "Black Mariah" is much scarier than nothing at all. Which? The large black lady, the police wagon, or the racehorse? http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-bla1.htm Quote: It scared him so, he wrote a spooky song about it. With spooky guitar whines and screeches. Not what I'd call "spooky", but good for him. How are you certain this song is meant to be documentation of an actual event, and not just a song? Anyway, "scary" is subjective, and I didn't say the experience scared me in the first place.
	__________________ It's always been Wankershim. "...untrustworthy obnoxious twerp." - CFLarsen

9th August 2012, 10:27 PM	#90
Piscivore Smelling fishy Join Date: May 2004 Location: Home is wherever I'm with you Posts: 26,459	Originally Posted by Toontown I don't think that's necessary. I think I've adequately explained why I wouldn't bet that he actually imagined not-existing. Simply by asserting it is impossible. Quote: I'm sure he imagined something. But I'm equally sure whatever he imagined wasn't "it". And upon what is your certainty based? That you think it is "impossible" to imagine something that does not exist? Quote: And I did not say "provide evidence" either. I said support the claim. Imagination: 4. the product of imagining; a conception or mental creation, often a baseless or fanciful one.
	__________________ It's always been Wankershim. "...untrustworthy obnoxious twerp." - CFLarsen

10th August 2012, 05:57 AM	#91
Toontown Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,555	Originally Posted by Piscivore Simply by asserting it is impossible. You made an extraordinary claim. I don't believe it. Get over it. Originally Posted by Piscivore And upon what is your certainty based? That you think it is "impossible" to imagine something that does not exist? It is impossibly contradictory to imagine being something that does not exist. The most you could do is fake it, and then argue about it like a stubborn mule for 96 hours. But you're doing a great job of proving my earlier point that attempting to discuss such matters here is a waste of time. It seems that poster boys are seldom in short supply. Originally Posted by Piscivore Imagination: 4. the product of imagining; a conception or mental creation, often a baseless or fanciful one. So? As I said to begin with: "If you imagined anything at at all, that wasn't it." You've said nothing that refutes that. You simply escalated it into a pointless argument that you can't win.
Toontown Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,555	__________________ SEARCH NOW THE SPHERES PROBE THE UNIVERSE SEND BACK WORD WHAT FORCE SO IRRESISTIBLE AS THE WILL OF FREE MEN Last edited by Toontown; 10th August 2012 at 06:00 AM.

10th August 2012, 06:13 AM	#92
Toontown Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,555	LIke I said. Reality is far more strange and incomprehensible than any woo ever could be. To wit: Imagine someone who does not exist. Now imagine being the imaginary someone who does not exist. Now imagine someone else asserting that it can't be done. Now imagine contrarily asserting that you have in fact succeeded in doing so. Now imagine someone else asserting that whatever you imagined was definitively not "it". Now imagine becoming all puffed up and arguing over it for a long time. Presto! You are Piscavore!
Toontown Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,555	__________________ SEARCH NOW THE SPHERES PROBE THE UNIVERSE SEND BACK WORD WHAT FORCE SO IRRESISTIBLE AS THE WILL OF FREE MEN Last edited by Toontown; 10th August 2012 at 06:17 AM.

10th August 2012, 06:36 AM	#93
Toontown Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,555	Originally Posted by SezMe How would he provide support for his claim without producing some evidence? I don't know how he will do it. He can't use reason or logic. He has no evidence. It is doubtful that he can describe his subjective experience. The claimed subjective experience is definitively indescribable. He wanted to know whether I was going to support my assertions, in an obvious evasion. I asked him to lead by example.
Toontown Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,555	__________________ SEARCH NOW THE SPHERES PROBE THE UNIVERSE SEND BACK WORD WHAT FORCE SO IRRESISTIBLE AS THE WILL OF FREE MEN Last edited by Toontown; 10th August 2012 at 06:44 AM.

10th August 2012, 07:35 AM	#94
Piscivore Smelling fishy Join Date: May 2004 Location: Home is wherever I'm with you Posts: 26,459	Originally Posted by Toontown It is impossibly contradictory to imagine being something that does not exist. I didn't say I imagined "being something" that didn't exist. If that's the source of your confusion, rest assured that's not what I said. I said I imagined the thing I "be" did not exist.
	__________________ It's always been Wankershim. "...untrustworthy obnoxious twerp." - CFLarsen

10th August 2012, 07:55 AM	#95
Hokulele Official Nemesis Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Trying to decide whether to set defenses against an army, or against mole rats. Posts: 27,267	Originally Posted by Toontown I don't know how he will do it. He can't use reason or logic. He has no evidence. It is doubtful that he can describe his subjective experience. The claimed subjective experience is definitively indescribable. He wanted to know whether I was going to support my assertions, in an obvious evasion. I asked him to lead by example. Ah, by your focus on the term "sentient" and now this post, are you talking about non-existence in a purely experiential sense rather than in an objective sense? Also, it seems as if you are arguing not that Piscivore can imagine non-existence, but that he cannot accurately imagine non-existence, in an experiential sense. Is this true?
	__________________ Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!" Some person: "Why did you shoot that?" Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!" - Tragic Monkey

10th August 2012, 08:56 AM	#96
Toontown Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,555	Originally Posted by Hokulele Ah, by your focus on the term "sentient" and now this post, are you talking about non-existence in a purely experiential sense rather than in an objective sense? Also, it seems as if you are arguing not that Piscivore can imagine non-existence, but that he cannot accurately imagine non-existence, in an experiential sense. Is this true? Yes. I confess to not being in the habit of thinking of wrongly picturing a condition in one's mind as being equivalent to actually imagining the condition. At any rate, the entire diversion is pointless, and I have completely lost interest in attempting to discuss the matter, particularly in view of my originally stated opinion: "So you can probably forget everything everyone says about the matter. No one knows squat about the subject. They invent false paradigms to explain the presumably momentary flashes of subjective light seemingly residing between the birth and death of a random monkey-man. Various false and unsupportable yarns are spun, and clung to stubbornly. All of which can be confidently ruled out. Which very probably only leaves possibilities which are very likely beyond your ability to imagine. Like the "charm" of a quark."
Toontown Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,555	__________________ SEARCH NOW THE SPHERES PROBE THE UNIVERSE SEND BACK WORD WHAT FORCE SO IRRESISTIBLE AS THE WILL OF FREE MEN

10th August 2012, 09:24 AM	#97
Toontown Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,555	Originally Posted by Piscivore I didn't say I imagined "being something" that didn't exist. If that's the source of your confusion, rest assured that's not what I said. I said I imagined the thing I "be" did not exist. How is that different from not imagining anything? Once again, my seminal comment was "If you imagined anything at all, that wasn't it." You could not have imagined not-existing, since, by your own admission, you imagined something. And if you didn't imagine anything, then you didn't imagine not-existing either. Your claim is that you have done something paradoxical, which puts you up against an unbeatable "Black Mariah" of your own making. Black Mariah, You never let go You scare me so BTW, they call the wind "Mariah". Jimi Hendrix once posed the question: Will the wind ever remember all the names it has blown in the past? And the Old Man, with his crutch, and his wisdom, whispered "No...this will be the last." But the wind, Jimi insisted, cries "Mary!"
Toontown Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,555	__________________ SEARCH NOW THE SPHERES PROBE THE UNIVERSE SEND BACK WORD WHAT FORCE SO IRRESISTIBLE AS THE WILL OF FREE MEN

10th August 2012, 09:41 AM	#98
Piscivore Smelling fishy Join Date: May 2004 Location: Home is wherever I'm with you Posts: 26,459	Originally Posted by Toontown How is that different from not imagining anything? One is imagining, one is not imagining. Quote: Black Mariah, You never let go You scare me so BTW, they call the wind "Mariah". Jimi Hendrix once posed the question: Will the wind ever remember all the names it has blown in the past? And the Old Man, with his crutch, and his wisdom, whispered "No...this will be the last." But the wind, Jimi insisted, cries "Mary!" Let's all pretend that made sense. How interesting I'm re-reading "A Scanner Darkly" right now. Déjà vu.
	__________________ It's always been Wankershim. "...untrustworthy obnoxious twerp." - CFLarsen

10th August 2012, 10:07 AM	#99
Hokulele Official Nemesis Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Trying to decide whether to set defenses against an army, or against mole rats. Posts: 27,267	Originally Posted by Toontown Yes. I confess to not being in the habit of thinking of wrongly picturing a condition in one's mind as being equivalent to actually imagining the condition. OK, so you are talking about a narrative experience, not about the objective condition of non-existence. As such, the best one could do would be to describe the process of moving from existence to non-existence, which many others have done in the past. Here is a good example from Piggy: Originally Posted by Piggy As some of y'all know from other threads, I recently had a drain-snake put up my veins and a little piece of my heart burnt out. I reckon every adventure has its lessons, and here -- for whatever they're worth (consider that they're offered freely) -- are mine.... <snip> This particular procedure, you have to be awake for. Sedated, but awake, and able to talk to the doctors. <snip> At one point, my blood pressure and heart rate took a nosedive and it was scramble time. They brought me back up -- of course, else no Piggy postie -- but for a while there, I was slipping away. Someone here on the forum asked me about it, what was going through my mind. And you know, I hadn't really thought about it at all. It was what it was, as the current phrase goes. Today I was describing it to a friend. He said, "Was it like you just detached from things?" And I had to say, no... the process wasn't like that at all. Because this "I" thing was going away, breaking up. It wasn't intact, to be detached from anything. It was like I was dissolving. Like my self -- whatever this is that still feels like "me" from childhood through adolescence and adulthood and all the changes... sort of like the old joke about the axe that's only had to have its handle replaced three times and the blade replaced twice -- as if that self were a cloud that was in the process of dispersing. And I had no opinion about it whatsoever. It was just happening. I felt it happening. I could hear all the alarms going off -- which, by the way, are much louder and more insistent than the simple flatline beep you hear in the movies. I could see everyone rushing around and pushing things into the IV and moving equipment and speaking tersely and quickly at each other. And meanwhile, I was breaking up, like a signal losing power. Which was neither good nor bad nor anything else. Now, before this procedure, I was absolutely terrified of death. Not dying, but of being dead. Or, more correctly, of not being. The thought of no longer existing filled me with a very fundamental evolutionary dread. I don't feel that now. Perhaps that's temporary, I don't know. But I do know that if dying turns out to be anything like what I experienced for those brief moments in the hospital, I have no fear of that. I'm not exactly sure what to do with that new knowledge. But I'm sure I'll think of something. Although I have not had the experience Piggy did (nor that Piscivore did), I "experienced" non-existence when I had surgery. Going under general anaethestic is nothing like simply going to sleep. It is a full discontinuity in existence, a splice in the film of life. So yes, I can imagine and describe non-existence, but of course it isn't a narrative, which is how most people describe and imagine what we commonly call an "experience". I suppose we can now quibble about whether or not I really "existed" while I was out.
	__________________ Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!" Some person: "Why did you shoot that?" Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!" - Tragic Monkey Last edited by Hokulele; 10th August 2012 at 10:09 AM. Reason: Grammah! I haz it!

10th August 2012, 12:42 PM	#100
Bikewer Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: St. Louis, Mo. Posts: 9,525	I always thought that from an entirely philosophical standpoint, reincarnation made more sense than the typical Abrahamic "one-shot lifetime" situation. The one-shot might be fine from a standpoint of cosmic justice if everyone had the same shot.... But we don't. Some folks are raised into wealth and privlege and gently educated and inculcated with good moral underpinnings.. And others are born into tragic circumstances and die young and horribly. Millions and millions die as infants or young children... Trying to accomodate some sort of justice scheme for this situation has accounted for a gread deal of ad-hoc thinking over the centuries.... At least reincarnation gives you the chance to gradually refine yourself over the centuries. But what's the point? Then it just seems like some kind of RPG where you gradually level-up to the point where you can get your big reward or kill off the ultimate "big boss". (or go to heaven or achieve oneness with the universe or whatever) Then what? Thousands of increasingly less-miserable lives only to achieve... What?

10th August 2012, 01:23 PM	#101
Toontown Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,555	Originally Posted by Piscivore One is imagining, one is not imagining. Let's all pretend that made sense. How interesting I'm re-reading "A Scanner Darkly" right now. Déjà vu. You got the answer you were stumping for, and promptly evaded it. Just like I knew you would. Look, If you can't even take "I don't believe you" for an answer without trying to make the OJ case out of it, I'm certainly not going to bust my ass trying to keep you happy, jumping through all your hoops, answering all your ill-intentioned little questions. Bottom line: If you imagined anything at all, that wasn't it.
Toontown Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,555	__________________ SEARCH NOW THE SPHERES PROBE THE UNIVERSE SEND BACK WORD WHAT FORCE SO IRRESISTIBLE AS THE WILL OF FREE MEN

10th August 2012, 01:32 PM	#102
Beelzebuddy Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 1,715	Originally Posted by Bikewer But what's the point? Then it just seems like some kind of RPG where you gradually level-up to the point where you can get your big reward or kill off the ultimate "big boss". (or go to heaven or achieve oneness with the universe or whatever) Then what? Thousands of increasingly less-miserable lives only to achieve... What? Green drops. Totally worth it.

10th August 2012, 01:38 PM	#103
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,176	Originally Posted by steve s Claiming to be someone famous (like Cleopatra or Tutankhamun) has been done to death so they always claim to be someone close to the famous person. But no one ever claims to have been a common slave working in the fields. Would be interesting to see a claim of having been in past life someone moderately important, but of whom there is no record whatsoever. Like a Pict chief circa 400 B.C., or a chief of some tribe which disappeared from history entirely. Not saying I would believe it, but psychology of such claim would be interesting. "No, historians cannot check my story because nothing else survived. But I can tell them a few things!"
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,176	__________________ Gamemaster: "A horde of rotting zombies is shambling toward you. The sign over the door says 'Accounting'"

10th August 2012, 01:43 PM	#104
Piscivore Smelling fishy Join Date: May 2004 Location: Home is wherever I'm with you Posts: 26,459	Originally Posted by Toontown You got the answer you were stumping for, and promptly evaded it. I "evaded" the answer... riiight. That's meaningful. If that's what that cobbled-together, stream-of-consciouness cluster of hippy lyrics was meant to be I don't know what you were trying to say. At all. And I really don't care. Psychedelia holds no truths for me. And I have no idea what the "Black Maria" you keep referencing is. Some kind of hallucinogen, I suppose. Quote: Look, If you can't even take "I don't believe you" for an answer without trying to make the OJ case out of it, I'm certainly not going to bust my ass trying to keep you happy, jumping through all your hoops, answering all your ill-intentioned little questions. My last few posts haven't asked you anything. I don't think you've got anything coherent to give me. I've been answering your questions. Quote: Bottom line: If you imagined anything at all, that wasn't it. If you say so.
	__________________ It's always been Wankershim. "...untrustworthy obnoxious twerp." - CFLarsen

10th August 2012, 02:31 PM	#105
Toontown Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,555	Originally Posted by Piscivore I "evaded" the answer... riiight. That's meaningful. If that's what that cobbled-together, stream-of-consciouness cluster of hippy lyrics was meant to be I don't know what you were trying to say. You know precisely what I intended to say, because that is precisely the part you edited out and ignored. Just like I knew you would. This part: "You could not have imagined not-existing, since, by your own admission, you imagined something. And if you didn't imagine anything, then you didn't imagine not-existing either. Your claim is that you have done something paradoxical...< annoying reference to "Black Mariah" snipped >" That's the only part you left out. You were careful to leave the "hippy lyrics" in. And you left in the sentence you made the smarmy, meaningless reply to. contradictory Originally Posted by Piscivore Psychedelia holds no truths for me. And I have no idea what the "Black Maria" you keep referencing is. Some kind of hallucinogen, I suppose. It's probably Rundgren's metaphor for the universe, not that you care. I think he was afraid of it. He also wrote a related one about entropy, seemed to know what it was, and seemed quite frightened of it as well. At that point any remaining dregs of interest on my part had faded, leaving only a desultory interest in having a little fun.
Toontown Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,555	__________________ SEARCH NOW THE SPHERES PROBE THE UNIVERSE SEND BACK WORD WHAT FORCE SO IRRESISTIBLE AS THE WILL OF FREE MEN

10th August 2012, 03:55 PM	#106
Toontown Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,555	Originally Posted by Hokulele Although I have not had the experience Piggy did (nor that Piscivore did), I "experienced" non-existence when I had surgery. Going under general anaethestic is nothing like simply going to sleep. It is a full discontinuity in existence, a splice in the film of life. So yes, I can imagine and describe non-existence, but of course it isn't a narrative, which is how most people describe and imagine what we commonly call an "experience". I suppose we can now quibble about whether or not I really "existed" while I was out. You existed while you were out. A brief discontinuity of awareness hardly strikes me as being at all like not existing. I've been under anesthetic, and it was never as if I did not exist. At most, it was as if the time period during which I was out did not exist. I recall the moments immediately before going under, followed immediately by awakening. There was no experience of nonexistence. Nor could there be. Definitively. Sorry. That's just not nonexistence. Incidentally, there was also a 14.7 billion year period before my birth. I have nothing to report or imagine about that time period. My guess is that's because, as a sentient being, I am incapable of experiencing nonexistence. Definitively. Where I am, nonexistence is not. Where nonexistence is, I am not. So I'm really having some trouble understanding what all this claiming to have experienced or imagined nonexistence is about. I suspect it's just because I said it's impossible. So, I suppose, if the doomed discussion is to continue, a tedious argument over the issue will have to continue for a number of days, signifying nothing, until another diversion draws attention. I suppose that, within a year, some may have reached some agreement as to whether nonexistence can be experienced or imagined or not. Whether the conclusion, if it is ever reached, will be correct or not, will probably be no better than a coin toss. So we might as well just flip a coin. Or ask A.L.I.C.E. We'll get as much accomplished, much more quickly.
Toontown Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,555	__________________ SEARCH NOW THE SPHERES PROBE THE UNIVERSE SEND BACK WORD WHAT FORCE SO IRRESISTIBLE AS THE WILL OF FREE MEN Last edited by Toontown; 10th August 2012 at 03:56 PM.

10th August 2012, 05:01 PM	#107
Piscivore Smelling fishy Join Date: May 2004 Location: Home is wherever I'm with you Posts: 26,459	Originally Posted by Toontown Or ask A.L.I.C.E. We'll get as much accomplished, much more quickly. Or at least carry all our stuff well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-pur...ying_Equipment
	__________________ It's always been Wankershim. "...untrustworthy obnoxious twerp." - CFLarsen

10th August 2012, 05:01 PM	#108
Cainkane1 Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 7,193	Originally Posted by IndianGuessWhichKind just curious to see if anyone here believes in reincarnation... Not me.
	__________________ If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.

10th August 2012, 11:07 PM	#109
Caper Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,946	I don't think I believe in reincarnation... actually I don't. But the more I learn about the study of science the more I'm not sure. I mean.... multiverse's, time travel actually being theoretically possible. The mere fact we are here... it kind of wows me sometimes. It's not going to make me go to church or anything.... but there's enough out there wowing me to hold some hope that when I click off I might just be getting started. After all, if there is time travel (back in time) and 300 years go by... don't I have to exist somewhere in order for someone to travel back to me? Even if I'm just doing the same thing as I am now?
Caper Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,946

11th August 2012, 03:34 AM	#110
Pup Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,589	Originally Posted by Caper After all, if there is time travel (back in time) and 300 years go by... don't I have to exist somewhere in order for someone to travel back to me? Even if I'm just doing the same thing as I am now? Not following. That's like saying, if people can travel to Cleveland, don't I have to be in Cleveland for someone to visit me? Why do you have an assumption that you'll be wherever someone, theoretically, could travel to--let alone that human time travel is possible?
Pup Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,589

12th August 2012, 03:34 AM	#111
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,467	Originally Posted by Caper After all, if there is time travel (back in time) and 300 years go by... don't I have to exist somewhere in order for someone to travel back to me? Even if I'm just doing the same thing as I am now? Pardon?
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

24th August 2012, 06:29 AM	#112
Multivac Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,927	No, I do not believe in reincarnation, and never have. Originally Posted by IndianGuessWhichKind Just makes more sense than heaven/hell OR oblivion- can you imagine not existing at all? It also fits in the cycle of things- energy cannot be created nor destroyed; just recycled so our souls get recycled into other human beings.... I also have vague fleeting memories from a previous life.... In the words of John Lennon: Imagine there's no heaven It's easy if you try No hell below us Above us only sky Imagine all the people living for today

24th August 2012, 06:32 AM	#113
Multivac Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,927	Originally Posted by sackett Souls can divide, thus providing new souls for the soon-to-be born. You probably think I read that on the back of a Celestial Seasonings box, but I didn't. A couple of questions if you don't mind. 1) What makes you think that souls exist? 2) If a sould divides, while waiting for a new body to inhabit, how and where does it exist. Thanks in advance

24th August 2012, 07:08 AM	#114
sackett Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 3,613	Aw yer no fun! Originally Posted by Multivac A couple of questions if you don't mind. 1) What makes you think that souls exist? 2) If a sould divides, while waiting for a new body to inhabit, how and where does it exist. Thanks in advance Just kidding, Multi ole pal. Come to think of it, Celest. Seasons. box copy might very well be my long-forgotten source. There's not much that Moe won't print if he thinks it schmoozes his customer base.
	__________________ Dyslexic and prond!