Jesus And Money

Joecool · 25th May 2012, 02:00 PM

This thread is a counter to this one:
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...00&postcount=1

The author, Gaetan contends that the whole world should live without money. He is citing biblical verses, but I will debunk Gaetan's entire premise.

Jesus, when the religious leaders wanted to trick him said "give to Ceasar what belongs to Ceasar, and give to God what Belongs to God". In saying this, Jesus basically acknowledges that money is a part of the world and has its place.

This parable shows that Jesus also tells us to be wise with money and not to live without money.

Luke 16:1-9
New International Version (NIV)
The Parable of the Shrewd Manager

16 Jesus told his disciples: “There was a rich man whose manager was accused of wasting his possessions. 2 So he called him in and asked him, ‘What is this I hear about you? Give an account of your management, because you cannot be manager any longer.’

3 “The manager said to himself, ‘What shall I do now? My master is taking away my job. I’m not strong enough to dig, and I’m ashamed to beg— 4 I know what I’ll do so that, when I lose my job here, people will welcome me into their houses.’

5 “So he called in each one of his master’s debtors. He asked the first, ‘How much do you owe my master?’

6 “‘Nine hundred gallons[a] of olive oil,’ he replied.

“The manager told him, ‘Take your bill, sit down quickly, and make it four hundred and fifty.’

7 “Then he asked the second, ‘And how much do you owe?’

“‘A thousand bushels[b] of wheat,’ he replied.

“He told him, ‘Take your bill and make it eight hundred.’

8 “The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light. 9 I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.

Craig B · 25th May 2012, 04:33 PM

@Joecool

While I agree that Gaetan's views are unsound, the example you give of Jesus' parable is not well chosen, as it makes no reference to money whatsoever. It presupposes a barter economy where debts are incurred and repaid in kind. Borrowed wheat is repaid in wheat, and oil in oil.

The early Christians used money. Peter required them to hand over all their money to the Apostles, on pain of death. So the Apostles used it, even if they left none in the hands of their followers. See Acts 5:1-11, the horrible story of Ananias and Sapphira, which understandably caused "great fear" to seize "the whole church, and all who heard about these events".

Dinwar · 25th May 2012, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by Craig B

@Joecool

While I agree that Gaetan's views are unsound, the example you give of Jesus' parable is not well chosen, as it makes no reference to money whatsoever..

If his objective is to lampshade Gaetan's position, I'd say it's chosen quite well. None of Gaetan's biblical verses have had anything to do with money either, except in his twisted interpretation.

Joecool · 25th May 2012, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by Craig B

@Joecool

While I agree that Gaetan's views are unsound, the example you give of Jesus' parable is not well chosen, as it makes no reference to money whatsoever. It presupposes a barter economy where debts are incurred and repaid in kind. Borrowed wheat is repaid in wheat, and oil in oil.

The early Christians used money. Peter required them to hand over all their money to the Apostles, on pain of death. So the Apostles used it, even if they left none in the hands of their followers. See Acts 5:1-11, the horrible story of Ananias and Sapphira, which understandably caused "great fear" to seize "the whole church, and all who heard about these events".

While these items that were traded were not money itself, it had value and could be traded. Gaetan's world has no money and no trading.

Gaetan proposes that we have no money where the citizens in his world sing "tra la la" and work faithfully for no reward. I fix your home, you give me a chicken for dinner. I give you tomatoes, you mow my lawn. This is how Gaetan proposes to run his world. Except he doesn't account for slackers who won't work, or criminals such as pedophiles or rapists. He also cannot explain how me giving someone a cow in the US won't do much for a starving guy in Africa.

Craig B · 25th May 2012, 10:56 PM

Originally Posted by Joecool

While these items that were traded were not money itself, it had value and could be traded. Gaetan's world has no money and no trading.

Gaetan proposes that we have no money where the citizens in his world sing "tra la la" and work faithfully for no reward. I fix your home, you give me a chicken for dinner. I give you tomatoes, you mow my lawn. This is how Gaetan proposes to run his world. Except he doesn't account for slackers who won't work ...

But, "I give you tomatoes, you mow my lawn" IS a reward under the systems of barter that prevailed before the relatively recent invention of money. The slacker who grows no tomatoes has an unmown lawn, and the slacker who refuses to mow a lawn must forego tomatoes.

Does Gaetan admit of such barter arrangements as an alternative to money? They would indeed preclude, or at least make very difficult, the accumulation of stores of wealth, at the cost of keeping society in a very primitive state, although it's difficult to imagine what kind of society he has in mind.

But if he's objecting only to money as such, the parable is not a good example to choose to refute him. There are plenty of occasions when Jesus and the early Christians refer to money, which would have been better examples. That was the intent of my reference to Acts 5.

Bad Lieutenant · 26th May 2012, 11:29 PM

Perhaps Jesus would have burnt £1,000,000 in this day and age.

Joecool · 29th May 2012, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by Craig B

But, "I give you tomatoes, you mow my lawn" IS a reward under the systems of barter that prevailed before the relatively recent invention of money. The slacker who grows no tomatoes has an unmown lawn, and the slacker who refuses to mow a lawn must forego tomatoes.

Does Gaetan admit of such barter arrangements as an alternative to money? They would indeed preclude, or at least make very difficult, the accumulation of stores of wealth, at the cost of keeping society in a very primitive state, although it's difficult to imagine what kind of society he has in mind.

But if he's objecting only to money as such, the parable is not a good example to choose to refute him. There are plenty of occasions when Jesus and the early Christians refer to money, which would have been better examples. That was the intent of my reference to Acts 5.

Gaetan claims that everyone has a job in his moneyless world. Just as people have jobs now, except that nobody gets paid.

Marquis de Carabas · 30th May 2012, 07:14 AM

Gaetan's money thread should have died months ago.

Joecool · 30th May 2012, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Marquis de Carabas

Gaetan's money thread should have died months ago.

Gaetan is apparently a burger flipper who is a bank president wannabe. Kind of entertaining stuff.

25th May 2012, 02:00 PM	#1
Joecool Muse Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Hawaii Posts: 951	Jesus And Money This thread is a counter to this one: http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...00&postcount=1 The author, Gaetan contends that the whole world should live without money. He is citing biblical verses, but I will debunk Gaetan's entire premise. Jesus, when the religious leaders wanted to trick him said "give to Ceasar what belongs to Ceasar, and give to God what Belongs to God". In saying this, Jesus basically acknowledges that money is a part of the world and has its place. This parable shows that Jesus also tells us to be wise with money and not to live without money. Luke 16:1-9 New International Version (NIV) The Parable of the Shrewd Manager 16 Jesus told his disciples: “There was a rich man whose manager was accused of wasting his possessions. 2 So he called him in and asked him, ‘What is this I hear about you? Give an account of your management, because you cannot be manager any longer.’ 3 “The manager said to himself, ‘What shall I do now? My master is taking away my job. I’m not strong enough to dig, and I’m ashamed to beg— 4 I know what I’ll do so that, when I lose my job here, people will welcome me into their houses.’ 5 “So he called in each one of his master’s debtors. He asked the first, ‘How much do you owe my master?’ 6 “‘Nine hundred gallons[a] of olive oil,’ he replied. “The manager told him, ‘Take your bill, sit down quickly, and make it four hundred and fifty.’ 7 “Then he asked the second, ‘And how much do you owe?’ “‘A thousand bushels[b] of wheat,’ he replied. “He told him, ‘Take your bill and make it eight hundred.’ 8 “The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light. 9 I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.

25th May 2012, 04:33 PM	#2
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 4,007	@Joecool While I agree that Gaetan's views are unsound, the example you give of Jesus' parable is not well chosen, as it makes no reference to money whatsoever. It presupposes a barter economy where debts are incurred and repaid in kind. Borrowed wheat is repaid in wheat, and oil in oil. The early Christians used money. Peter required them to hand over all their money to the Apostles, on pain of death. So the Apostles used it, even if they left none in the hands of their followers. See Acts 5:1-11, the horrible story of Ananias and Sapphira, which understandably caused "great fear" to seize "the whole church, and all who heard about these events".
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 4,007

25th May 2012, 05:27 PM	#3
Dinwar Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 8,979	Originally Posted by Craig B @Joecool While I agree that Gaetan's views are unsound, the example you give of Jesus' parable is not well chosen, as it makes no reference to money whatsoever.. If his objective is to lampshade Gaetan's position, I'd say it's chosen quite well. None of Gaetan's biblical verses have had anything to do with money either, except in his twisted interpretation.
Dinwar Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 8,979	__________________ GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment. Ein krieg ohne feinde.

25th May 2012, 10:56 PM	#5
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 4,007	Originally Posted by Joecool While these items that were traded were not money itself, it had value and could be traded. Gaetan's world has no money and no trading. Gaetan proposes that we have no money where the citizens in his world sing "tra la la" and work faithfully for no reward. I fix your home, you give me a chicken for dinner. I give you tomatoes, you mow my lawn. This is how Gaetan proposes to run his world. Except he doesn't account for slackers who won't work ... But, "I give you tomatoes, you mow my lawn" IS a reward under the systems of barter that prevailed before the relatively recent invention of money. The slacker who grows no tomatoes has an unmown lawn, and the slacker who refuses to mow a lawn must forego tomatoes. Does Gaetan admit of such barter arrangements as an alternative to money? They would indeed preclude, or at least make very difficult, the accumulation of stores of wealth, at the cost of keeping society in a very primitive state, although it's difficult to imagine what kind of society he has in mind. But if he's objecting only to money as such, the parable is not a good example to choose to refute him. There are plenty of occasions when Jesus and the early Christians refer to money, which would have been better examples. That was the intent of my reference to Acts 5.
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 4,007

30th May 2012, 07:14 AM	#8
Marquis de Carabas Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: vuori Posts: 27,106	Gaetan's money thread should have died months ago.
	__________________ Jesus ... wasn't he the bloke who turned fish into wine and made the lepers multiply? -KateHL Violence is more acceptable than incest. I have been told to keep this in mind.

25th May 2012, 05:46 PM	#4
Joecool Muse Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Hawaii Posts: 951	Originally Posted by Craig B @Joecool While I agree that Gaetan's views are unsound, the example you give of Jesus' parable is not well chosen, as it makes no reference to money whatsoever. It presupposes a barter economy where debts are incurred and repaid in kind. Borrowed wheat is repaid in wheat, and oil in oil. The early Christians used money. Peter required them to hand over all their money to the Apostles, on pain of death. So the Apostles used it, even if they left none in the hands of their followers. See Acts 5:1-11, the horrible story of Ananias and Sapphira, which understandably caused "great fear" to seize "the whole church, and all who heard about these events". While these items that were traded were not money itself, it had value and could be traded. Gaetan's world has no money and no trading. Gaetan proposes that we have no money where the citizens in his world sing "tra la la" and work faithfully for no reward. I fix your home, you give me a chicken for dinner. I give you tomatoes, you mow my lawn. This is how Gaetan proposes to run his world. Except he doesn't account for slackers who won't work, or criminals such as pedophiles or rapists. He also cannot explain how me giving someone a cow in the US won't do much for a starving guy in Africa.

26th May 2012, 11:29 PM	#6
Bad Lieutenant Muse Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Cheltenham - England Posts: 612	Perhaps Jesus would have burnt £1,000,000 in this day and age.

29th May 2012, 12:06 PM	#7
Joecool Muse Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Hawaii Posts: 951	Originally Posted by Craig B But, "I give you tomatoes, you mow my lawn" IS a reward under the systems of barter that prevailed before the relatively recent invention of money. The slacker who grows no tomatoes has an unmown lawn, and the slacker who refuses to mow a lawn must forego tomatoes. Does Gaetan admit of such barter arrangements as an alternative to money? They would indeed preclude, or at least make very difficult, the accumulation of stores of wealth, at the cost of keeping society in a very primitive state, although it's difficult to imagine what kind of society he has in mind. But if he's objecting only to money as such, the parable is not a good example to choose to refute him. There are plenty of occasions when Jesus and the early Christians refer to money, which would have been better examples. That was the intent of my reference to Acts 5. Gaetan claims that everyone has a job in his moneyless world. Just as people have jobs now, except that nobody gets paid.

30th May 2012, 12:28 PM	#9
Joecool Muse Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Hawaii Posts: 951	Originally Posted by Marquis de Carabas Gaetan's money thread should have died months ago. Gaetan is apparently a burger flipper who is a bank president wannabe. Kind of entertaining stuff.