Girl with Down Syndrome jailed for blasphemy - Page 4

trustbutverify · 9th September 2012, 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Poor thing. What's wrong with people they could terrorize this mentally disabled child? From the Imam (or whoever he was) that put the burnt Koran pages in her bag to the idiots who would actually arrest her, that release with armed protectors needed to get her back to her family, it's shameful, absolutely shameful.

I can only imagine the kind of psychological torture she experienced as this obscenity unfolded.

And now the possibility this was a complete frame up.

TimCallahan · 10th September 2012, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by trustbutverify

I can only imagine the kind of psychological torture she experienced as this obscenity unfolded.

And now the possibility this was a complete frame up.

Remember that the country is the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. Their flag shows a star and crescent in white on a green field. It is, essentially, an Islamic symbol. One possible meaning for the name "Pakistan," utilizing the Persian word pak, meaning "pure," is "land of the pure." Add all of this information together and you can see that purity being claimed is religious in nature. Hence, the intolerance, at least intermittently, directed toward Christians.

Once one has defined one's opponents as "the other" - meaning the impure, the false religion, etc. - then they are evil, and any tactic used against them, however despicable it might otherwise be, is now justified. So, in the mind of the imam, it was right to desecrate the Qur'an and frame a girl with Down Syndrome, because she was Christian, and the anti-Christian sentiment that could be whipped up would help drive the Christians from the land. I have no doubt that, should it be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the imam is the culprit, He will show no remorse for his actions, but will react with self-righteous indignation if anyone points out to him that what he did was evil.

baron · 10th September 2012, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by TimCallahan

I have no doubt that, should it be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the imam is the culprit, He will show no remorse for his actions, but will react with self-righteous indignation if anyone points out to him that what he did was evil.

What he did was evil even if the girl had burned the pages. I wonder how much support he has amongst Muslims in the West.

LordofTruth · 10th September 2012, 03:19 PM

I havn't followed this thread closely, but this video might be interesting to those who have. It's about blasphemy laws in Pakistan. I don't know how good the translation is:

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com.au...-ul-qadri.html

trustbutverify · 11th September 2012, 12:05 AM

Originally Posted by TimCallahan

I have no doubt that, should it be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the imam is the culprit, He will show no remorse for his actions, but will react with self-righteous indignation if anyone points out to him that what he did was evil.

Maybe, as he is led into court, the Pakistan lawyers guild can throw rose pedals at him.

chillzero · 11th September 2012, 01:06 AM

I hope that the Muslim who went to the police about the imam manages to avoid violent repurcussions. What an incredibly brave thing to have done, in this context.

ANTPogo · 11th September 2012, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by LordofTruth

I havn't followed this thread closely, but this video might be interesting to those who have. It's about blasphemy laws in Pakistan. I don't know how good the translation is:

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com.au...-ul-qadri.html

Good enough that it more or less accurately represents Qadri's views about the blasphemy law and his involvement in its creation, despite the rough editing.

The clips are taken from a 12-hour lecture he gave on the topic, entitled "Who is a blasphemer?" (available in full, albeit in unsubtitled Urdu, at his own website here). In it, he rails against those who practice takfir and use of the blasphemy law against Muslims of other sects and opposing scholars. He describes what, in his view, are the proper and only criteria for determining whether someone is a blasphemer...after which they are to be executed with no possibility of repentance or redemption whatsoever for this crime.

He also says that this determination can only be made through the proper legal procedures, and can't be done by simply having a random scholar declare that X is a blasphemer and having random person Y take matters into their own hands - he specifically declares that Salman Taseer did not commit blasphemy, and that his assassin Malik Mumtaz Qadri is to be condemned as a murderer and criminal. This caused no small controversy in Pakistan (as was noted at the time by the Pakistani press), and YouTube is filled with both zillions of clips of that part of Qadri's lecture regarding Taseer and Mumtaz (as well as Pakistani interviews with him about it), and zillions of clips from other scholars challenging those statements.

Needless to say, the fact that Qadri's main objection to Taseer's murder was rooted in the fact that proper procedures were not followed in judging him before executing him for blasphemy, rather than, y'know, objecting because killing people for blasphemy is wrong and evil, is not exactly comforting.

However, I do take issue with Gates of Vienna's claim that Qadri is being "two-faced" about his support of the blasphemy law in Pakistan. If he's trying to downplay his responsibility for and attitudes about it, it's only started recently (like, July 2010 recently) - his official English bio on the Minhaj ul Quran website up until then bragged about the blasphemy law being one of his greatest accomplishments (along with reinstating stoning as a hadd punishment, and the same push to have the "blood money" law treat women equal to men that he told the Jyllands-Posten journalist about in the GoV clip).

And if he's playing up his views that he doesn't like the blasphemy law as it's currently implemented, even now he makes no bones about his support for the existence of the law itself, even to Western audiences. Here he is, for instance, saying that there's nothing wrong with the "substantive law", just the "procedural aspects" of the law. And here (again at his Minhaj ul Quran website) is a scan/translation/transcription of a Dutch newspaper article about how just last week he justified his views by appealing to the Bible's own description of what the punishment for blasphemy should be (complete with the headline "The Sharia professor: Death penalty for blasphemy is also in the Bible").

The dichotomy between "moderate" Pakistani Barelvis condemning terrorism and Wahhabism on the one hand, and supporting the death penalty for blasphemy on the other, has been noted before (sometimes the moderate-extremist spectrum isn't as linear and compartmentalized as we think it is). And the fact that Qadri might not have supported what happened to Taseer does not actually make him any better in that regard.

I Ratant · 11th September 2012, 10:25 AM

Blasphemy is an offense against an imaginary creation of a man's brain.
There is no way in hell that saying anything about something that has no existence is worth being killed for.
No one kills anyone because they didn't laugh at a Blondie cartoon, and religions are only cartoons.
That the Stone Age countries on this planet can't get that idea in their disturbed brains is appalling.

TimCallahan · 11th September 2012, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by LordofTruth

I havn't followed this thread closely, but this video might be interesting to those who have. It's about blasphemy laws in Pakistan. I don't know how good the translation is:

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com.au...-ul-qadri.html

This is quite two-faced. I suspect that lying to the western media is also acceptable to defend Islam.

ANTPogo · 11th September 2012, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

Blasphemy is an offense against an imaginary creation of a man's brain.
There is no way in hell that saying anything about something that has no existence is worth being killed for.
No one kills anyone because they didn't laugh at a Blondie cartoon, and religions are only cartoons.
That the Stone Age countries on this planet can't get that idea in their disturbed brains is appalling.

I don't know if I would have put it exactly that same way, but I do share the sentiment.

I believe I've posted here at JREF before about how much I don't like the current state of Pakistan.

ANTPogo · 11th September 2012, 12:16 PM

BBC Radio has a rather timely (in terms of the discussion in this thread, anyway) docudrama about the murder of Taseer, featuring both dramatic recreations of events, and interviews/comments with Taseer's family and friends, as well as the family of his murderer.

It's available to listen to the rest of this week.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01mhn54

10th September 2012, 02:49 PM	#122
TimCallahan Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,119	Originally Posted by trustbutverify I can only imagine the kind of psychological torture she experienced as this obscenity unfolded. And now the possibility this was a complete frame up. Remember that the country is the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. Their flag shows a star and crescent in white on a green field. It is, essentially, an Islamic symbol. One possible meaning for the name "Pakistan," utilizing the Persian word pak, meaning "pure," is "land of the pure." Add all of this information together and you can see that purity being claimed is religious in nature. Hence, the intolerance, at least intermittently, directed toward Christians. Once one has defined one's opponents as "the other" - meaning the impure, the false religion, etc. - then they are evil, and any tactic used against them, however despicable it might otherwise be, is now justified. So, in the mind of the imam, it was right to desecrate the Qur'an and frame a girl with Down Syndrome, because she was Christian, and the anti-Christian sentiment that could be whipped up would help drive the Christians from the land. I have no doubt that, should it be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the imam is the culprit, He will show no remorse for his actions, but will react with self-righteous indignation if anyone points out to him that what he did was evil.
TimCallahan Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,119	Last edited by TimCallahan; 10th September 2012 at 02:50 PM.

10th September 2012, 03:17 PM	#123
baron Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Hill Posts: 1,910	Originally Posted by TimCallahan I have no doubt that, should it be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the imam is the culprit, He will show no remorse for his actions, but will react with self-righteous indignation if anyone points out to him that what he did was evil. What he did was evil even if the girl had burned the pages. I wonder how much support he has amongst Muslims in the West.
	__________________

10th September 2012, 03:19 PM	#124
LordofTruth Thinker Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 153	I havn't followed this thread closely, but this video might be interesting to those who have. It's about blasphemy laws in Pakistan. I don't know how good the translation is: http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com.au...-ul-qadri.html
LordofTruth Thinker Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 153

11th September 2012, 09:14 AM	#127
ANTPogo Unique Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 9,316	Originally Posted by LordofTruth I havn't followed this thread closely, but this video might be interesting to those who have. It's about blasphemy laws in Pakistan. I don't know how good the translation is: http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com.au...-ul-qadri.html Good enough that it more or less accurately represents Qadri's views about the blasphemy law and his involvement in its creation, despite the rough editing. The clips are taken from a 12-hour lecture he gave on the topic, entitled "Who is a blasphemer?" (available in full, albeit in unsubtitled Urdu, at his own website here). In it, he rails against those who practice takfir and use of the blasphemy law against Muslims of other sects and opposing scholars. He describes what, in his view, are the proper and only criteria for determining whether someone is a blasphemer...after which they are to be executed with no possibility of repentance or redemption whatsoever for this crime. He also says that this determination can only be made through the proper legal procedures, and can't be done by simply having a random scholar declare that X is a blasphemer and having random person Y take matters into their own hands - he specifically declares that Salman Taseer did not commit blasphemy, and that his assassin Malik Mumtaz Qadri is to be condemned as a murderer and criminal. This caused no small controversy in Pakistan (as was noted at the time by the Pakistani press), and YouTube is filled with both zillions of clips of that part of Qadri's lecture regarding Taseer and Mumtaz (as well as Pakistani interviews with him about it), and zillions of clips from other scholars challenging those statements. Needless to say, the fact that Qadri's main objection to Taseer's murder was rooted in the fact that proper procedures were not followed in judging him before executing him for blasphemy, rather than, y'know, objecting because killing people for blasphemy is wrong and evil, is not exactly comforting. However, I do take issue with Gates of Vienna's claim that Qadri is being "two-faced" about his support of the blasphemy law in Pakistan. If he's trying to downplay his responsibility for and attitudes about it, it's only started recently (like, July 2010 recently) - his official English bio on the Minhaj ul Quran website up until then bragged about the blasphemy law being one of his greatest accomplishments (along with reinstating stoning as a hadd punishment, and the same push to have the "blood money" law treat women equal to men that he told the Jyllands-Posten journalist about in the GoV clip). And if he's playing up his views that he doesn't like the blasphemy law as it's currently implemented, even now he makes no bones about his support for the existence of the law itself, even to Western audiences. Here he is, for instance, saying that there's nothing wrong with the "substantive law", just the "procedural aspects" of the law. And here (again at his Minhaj ul Quran website) is a scan/translation/transcription of a Dutch newspaper article about how just last week he justified his views by appealing to the Bible's own description of what the punishment for blasphemy should be (complete with the headline "The Sharia professor: Death penalty for blasphemy is also in the Bible"). The dichotomy between "moderate" Pakistani Barelvis condemning terrorism and Wahhabism on the one hand, and supporting the death penalty for blasphemy on the other, has been noted before (sometimes the moderate-extremist spectrum isn't as linear and compartmentalized as we think it is). And the fact that Qadri might not have supported what happened to Taseer does not actually make him any better in that regard.
	__________________ "A nation can survive with kufr, but not with zulm." - ʿAlī ibn Abī Ṭālib "No more hurting people" - Martin William Richard Currently Reading: Righteous Victims, by Benny Morris Last edited by ANTPogo; 11th September 2012 at 10:35 AM.

11th September 2012, 10:46 AM	#129
TimCallahan Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,119	Originally Posted by LordofTruth I havn't followed this thread closely, but this video might be interesting to those who have. It's about blasphemy laws in Pakistan. I don't know how good the translation is: http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com.au...-ul-qadri.html This is quite two-faced. I suspect that lying to the western media is also acceptable to defend Islam.
TimCallahan Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,119

9th September 2012, 09:17 PM	#121
trustbutverify Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,104	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Poor thing. What's wrong with people they could terrorize this mentally disabled child? From the Imam (or whoever he was) that put the burnt Koran pages in her bag to the idiots who would actually arrest her, that release with armed protectors needed to get her back to her family, it's shameful, absolutely shameful. I can only imagine the kind of psychological torture she experienced as this obscenity unfolded. And now the possibility this was a complete frame up.

11th September 2012, 12:05 AM	#125
trustbutverify Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,104	Originally Posted by TimCallahan I have no doubt that, should it be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the imam is the culprit, He will show no remorse for his actions, but will react with self-righteous indignation if anyone points out to him that what he did was evil. Maybe, as he is led into court, the Pakistan lawyers guild can throw rose pedals at him.

11th September 2012, 01:06 AM	#126
chillzero Domestic Godless Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Top of the world, ma! Posts: 15,226	I hope that the Muslim who went to the police about the imam manages to avoid violent repurcussions. What an incredibly brave thing to have done, in this context.

11th September 2012, 10:25 AM	#128
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Blasphemy is an offense against an imaginary creation of a man's brain. There is no way in hell that saying anything about something that has no existence is worth being killed for. No one kills anyone because they didn't laugh at a Blondie cartoon, and religions are only cartoons. That the Stone Age countries on this planet can't get that idea in their disturbed brains is appalling.

11th September 2012, 10:47 AM	#130
ANTPogo Unique Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 9,316	Originally Posted by I Ratant Blasphemy is an offense against an imaginary creation of a man's brain. There is no way in hell that saying anything about something that has no existence is worth being killed for. No one kills anyone because they didn't laugh at a Blondie cartoon, and religions are only cartoons. That the Stone Age countries on this planet can't get that idea in their disturbed brains is appalling. I don't know if I would have put it exactly that same way, but I do share the sentiment. I believe I've posted here at JREF before about how much I don't like the current state of Pakistan.
	__________________ "A nation can survive with kufr, but not with zulm." - ʿAlī ibn Abī Ṭālib "No more hurting people" - Martin William Richard Currently Reading: Righteous Victims, by Benny Morris

11th September 2012, 12:16 PM	#131
ANTPogo Unique Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 9,316	BBC Radio has a rather timely (in terms of the discussion in this thread, anyway) docudrama about the murder of Taseer, featuring both dramatic recreations of events, and interviews/comments with Taseer's family and friends, as well as the family of his murderer. It's available to listen to the rest of this week. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01mhn54
	__________________ "A nation can survive with kufr, but not with zulm." - ʿAlī ibn Abī Ṭālib "No more hurting people" - Martin William Richard Currently Reading: Righteous Victims, by Benny Morris Last edited by ANTPogo; 11th September 2012 at 12:18 PM.