When will men and women dress and act the same? - Page 2

StankApe · 29th November 2012, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by gabeygoat

Why make him wait? You can buy a beautiful pair of breasts for him at the local plastic surgeon.

dadburnit, if any teets is bein purchased theyz a goin on my wife/goat!

Miss_Kitt · 29th November 2012, 02:28 PM

I recommend "The Blank Slate" as a good all-around starter on the whole "what is inborn, what's not" issue, including the reasons WHY people defend the whole tabula rasa perspective.

As we learn more about development, we learn that not only are genes important, but when/how those genes express is important. The fact that major structural differences don't exist doesn't mean that functional differences can't--or don't--exist. The use of fMRI to detect differences is what area of the brain are used for different kinds of tasks is but one example of this.

I'm amazed to hear that continental feminism is still locked into that old, disproved model. Not that there aren't some "there are NO differences" folks around here, too, but they aren't by any means the only ones publishing, lecturing, or writing books.

GregInAustin · 29th November 2012, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by CplFerro

Dear Almo,

Do you have any books, studies, or websites to back that up? I remember a recent public television show featuring neuroscientists who claim there is no meaningful difference between male and female brains. If what you're saying is true, it's hardly been proven definitively in the public sphere.

Cpl Ferro

Seriously? You want to see books or websites that back up the claim that male and female humans (or any species for that matter) are biologically different?

The most obvious source of information for that is pornography, but as much fun as that would be, we probably can't post it here.

Instead, I'll direct you to the XY sex-determination system which explains very clearly the biological differences between male and female.

Are you sure that the tv show you watched didn't simply say that there's no difference in mental capacity (learning, memory, speech and communication, etc.) between the sexes? That seems more likely.

yomero · 29th November 2012, 02:59 PM

When will men and women dress the same? It has happened before: Maoist China. http://www.powerhousemuseum.com/hsc/evrev/mao_suit.htm

CplFerro · 30th November 2012, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by GregInAustin

Seriously? You want to see books or websites that back up the claim that male and female humans (or any species for that matter) are biologically different?

Are you sure that the tv show you watched didn't simply say that there's no difference in mental capacity (learning, memory, speech and communication, etc.) between the sexes? That seems more likely.

Dear Greg,

No, I want proof that men and women are psychbiologically different. That is, that they would be psychologically different no matter what culture does to them. The (public television) show came down on the side that psychology is pure culture, moulding a rasa clump of clay.

Cpl Ferro

sir drinks-a-lot · 30th November 2012, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by CplFerro

No, I want proof that men and women are psychbiologically different.

You only get proof in alcohol and mathematics. There is a lot of evidence that male and female humans are psychologically different, even setting aside cultural conditioning. One book you may be interested in is The Red Queen.

Quote:

The (public television) show came down on the side that psychology is pure culture, moulding a rasa clump of clay.

I understand the claim, and it is quite popular today. But aside, from seeming obviously wrong (which I know can be misleading), I think there is a lot of evidence that runs counter to the claim.

Halfcentaur · 30th November 2012, 11:13 AM

Why not get rid of culture while we're at it. Let's homogenize the species.

StankApe · 30th November 2012, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot

You only get proof in alcohol and mathematics. There is a lot of evidence that male and female humans are psychologically different, even setting aside cultural conditioning. One book you may be interested in is Te Red Queen.

.

True, and the only way to test this would be to take a bunch of kids and isolate them in a manner that no norms were put towards them. Then see how they develop. Problem is, if it turns out to be all cultural, you might have totally screwed up and entire group of kids... I wouldn't put MY kid in anything like that!

Earthborn · 30th November 2012, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot

There is a lot of evidence that male and female humans are psychologically different, even setting aside cultural conditioning.

There is no such evidence because it is impossible to "set aside cultural conditioning" which would be necessary to produce such evidence. None of the research claimed to have found psychological differences between men and women has even attempted to do so.

Quote:

I understand the claim, and it is quite popular today.

It is quite popular today, especially as a huge strawman presented by people (such as Pinker) to argue against it. The people arguing in favour of it are notably absent, but many people who point out the importance of learning or who ask for evidence that claimed psychological sex differences are innate are routinely accused of believing in such a tabula rasa concept of the mind.

Originally Posted by CplFerro

That is, that they would be psychologically different no matter what culture does to them.

There is no way to test this, because you can never effectively rule out cultural influence, and cultural influence is necessary to develop psychologically: without social contact children cannot develop into neurologically normal people.

DragonLady · 30th November 2012, 07:02 PM

Quote:

No, I want proof that men and women are psychbiologically different.

Why Beautiful People Have More Daughters

I don't know the author, but if you Google you'll find it, and it's worth reading. It will at least give you things to think about, and is a good place to start if you're really interested in learning more.

Lithrael · 30th November 2012, 07:15 PM

I'm gonna have to point out that not all the men dress the same and not all the women dress the same, so I'm not sure where anyone's getting the double-leap to men and women dressing the same...

Loss Leader · 30th November 2012, 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by CplFerro

Instead of doing well at dressing and acting like they're members of a noticeably different species? I mean this in light of the ongoing question of how much the intrinsic psychologies of men and women resemble each other, as opposed to being divorced by culture. Men tend to act and dress differently than women and vice versa. Will this ever change, or will "culturally-imprinted" differences persist forever? Will feminism ever win in its stated goal of equality, leading to popular androgyny? Tell me what you think (and keep the stand-ups coming).

Cpl Ferro

I find the total number of suppressed premises to be too great to address. Please include fewer illogical arguments, hasty generalizations, straw men and obfuscations in your next thread.

Bikewer · 1st December 2012, 06:11 AM

I was going to mention the Maoist China that Yomero linked to.... Eeew, ugly. I for one celebrate "La Differance".
I'm old enough to recall when Mom wouldn't think of going "shopping' without getting all dolled up; pearls and makeup and the works. Back when likewise men wore suits unless they were in some sort of manual trade.

Profanz · 1st December 2012, 09:45 AM

1987

Corsair 115 · 1st December 2012, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by CplFerro

The (public television) show came down on the side that psychology is pure culture, moulding a rasa clump of clay.

It would be helpful if you could cite the specific program you're referencing. Then its claims could be examined directly and in context. As it stands now we are relying on your recollection of what was said in the program, a recollection which may well be inaccurate and/or incomplete.

29th November 2012, 02:22 PM	#41
StankApe Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 4,643	Originally Posted by gabeygoat Why make him wait? You can buy a beautiful pair of breasts for him at the local plastic surgeon. dadburnit, if any teets is bein purchased theyz a goin on my wife/goat!
StankApe Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 4,643

29th November 2012, 02:28 PM	#42
Miss_Kitt Zombie Horse of Homeopathy Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Lesser Seattle Posts: 3,625	I recommend "The Blank Slate" as a good all-around starter on the whole "what is inborn, what's not" issue, including the reasons WHY people defend the whole tabula rasa perspective. As we learn more about development, we learn that not only are genes important, but when/how those genes express is important. The fact that major structural differences don't exist doesn't mean that functional differences can't--or don't--exist. The use of fMRI to detect differences is what area of the brain are used for different kinds of tasks is but one example of this. I'm amazed to hear that continental feminism is still locked into that old, disproved model. Not that there aren't some "there are NO differences" folks around here, too, but they aren't by any means the only ones publishing, lecturing, or writing books.
	__________________ It's much better to live an honest life than a delusional one -- desertgal Magic thinking is a lead personal floatation device. It looks really reassuring, but it will drag you down--whatthebutlersaw

29th November 2012, 02:49 PM	#43
GregInAustin Scholar Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 91	Originally Posted by CplFerro Dear Almo, Do you have any books, studies, or websites to back that up? I remember a recent public television show featuring neuroscientists who claim there is no meaningful difference between male and female brains. If what you're saying is true, it's hardly been proven definitively in the public sphere. Cpl Ferro Seriously? You want to see books or websites that back up the claim that male and female humans (or any species for that matter) are biologically different? The most obvious source of information for that is pornography, but as much fun as that would be, we probably can't post it here. Instead, I'll direct you to the XY sex-determination system which explains very clearly the biological differences between male and female. Are you sure that the tv show you watched didn't simply say that there's no difference in mental capacity (learning, memory, speech and communication, etc.) between the sexes? That seems more likely.
GregInAustin Scholar Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 91

29th November 2012, 02:59 PM	#44
yomero Muse Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: North of here South of there Posts: 931	When will men and women dress the same? It has happened before: Maoist China. http://www.powerhousemuseum.com/hsc/evrev/mao_suit.htm
	__________________ And although I'm not often ''amazed'' these days, I am frequently appalled, but that may be simply because reality keeps upping the ante.- ''The Word Detective'', Evan Morris. Last edited by yomero; 29th November 2012 at 03:38 PM.

30th November 2012, 11:08 AM	#46
sir drinks-a-lot Muse Join Date: May 2004 Location: Cole Valley, CA Posts: 577	Originally Posted by CplFerro No, I want proof that men and women are psychbiologically different. You only get proof in alcohol and mathematics. There is a lot of evidence that male and female humans are psychologically different, even setting aside cultural conditioning. One book you may be interested in is The Red Queen. Quote: The (public television) show came down on the side that psychology is pure culture, moulding a rasa clump of clay. I understand the claim, and it is quite popular today. But aside, from seeming obviously wrong (which I know can be misleading), I think there is a lot of evidence that runs counter to the claim.
	__________________ "We all know that Barack Obama won the Nobel Prize, but none of us quite know what for." -Victor Davis Hanson Last edited by sir drinks-a-lot; 30th November 2012 at 11:17 AM.

30th November 2012, 10:28 AM	#45
CplFerro Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,383	Originally Posted by GregInAustin Seriously? You want to see books or websites that back up the claim that male and female humans (or any species for that matter) are biologically different? Are you sure that the tv show you watched didn't simply say that there's no difference in mental capacity (learning, memory, speech and communication, etc.) between the sexes? That seems more likely. Dear Greg, No, I want proof that men and women are psychbiologically different. That is, that they would be psychologically different no matter what culture does to them. The (public television) show came down on the side that psychology is pure culture, moulding a rasa clump of clay. Cpl Ferro

30th November 2012, 11:13 AM	#47
Halfcentaur Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 5,952	Why not get rid of culture while we're at it. Let's homogenize the species.
Halfcentaur Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 5,952

30th November 2012, 11:16 AM	#48
StankApe Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 4,643	Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot You only get proof in alcohol and mathematics. There is a lot of evidence that male and female humans are psychologically different, even setting aside cultural conditioning. One book you may be interested in is Te Red Queen. . True, and the only way to test this would be to take a bunch of kids and isolate them in a manner that no norms were put towards them. Then see how they develop. Problem is, if it turns out to be all cultural, you might have totally screwed up and entire group of kids... I wouldn't put MY kid in anything like that!
StankApe Banned Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 4,643

30th November 2012, 06:38 PM	#49
Earthborn Terrestrial Intelligence Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Terra Firma Posts: 5,648	Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot There is a lot of evidence that male and female humans are psychologically different, even setting aside cultural conditioning. There is no such evidence because it is impossible to "set aside cultural conditioning" which would be necessary to produce such evidence. None of the research claimed to have found psychological differences between men and women has even attempted to do so. Quote: I understand the claim, and it is quite popular today. It is quite popular today, especially as a huge strawman presented by people (such as Pinker) to argue against it. The people arguing in favour of it are notably absent, but many people who point out the importance of learning or who ask for evidence that claimed psychological sex differences are innate are routinely accused of believing in such a tabula rasa concept of the mind. Originally Posted by CplFerro That is, that they would be psychologically different no matter what culture does to them. There is no way to test this, because you can never effectively rule out cultural influence, and cultural influence is necessary to develop psychologically: without social contact children cannot develop into neurologically normal people.
	__________________ Perhaps nothing is entirely true; and not even that! Multatuli

30th November 2012, 07:02 PM	#50
DragonLady Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Under the Starry, Starry Night Posts: 1,832	Quote: No, I want proof that men and women are psychbiologically different. Why Beautiful People Have More Daughters I don't know the author, but if you Google you'll find it, and it's worth reading. It will at least give you things to think about, and is a good place to start if you're really interested in learning more.
	__________________ It's NOT denial. I'm just very selective about the reality I accept. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes) The Gweat and Tewwible Winged One

30th November 2012, 07:15 PM	#51
Lithrael Muse Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 773	I'm gonna have to point out that not all the men dress the same and not all the women dress the same, so I'm not sure where anyone's getting the double-leap to men and women dressing the same...
Lithrael Muse Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 773

30th November 2012, 07:26 PM	#52
Loss Leader Opinionated Jerk Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: New York Posts: 11,885	Originally Posted by CplFerro Instead of doing well at dressing and acting like they're members of a noticeably different species? I mean this in light of the ongoing question of how much the intrinsic psychologies of men and women resemble each other, as opposed to being divorced by culture. Men tend to act and dress differently than women and vice versa. Will this ever change, or will "culturally-imprinted" differences persist forever? Will feminism ever win in its stated goal of equality, leading to popular androgyny? Tell me what you think (and keep the stand-ups coming). Cpl Ferro I find the total number of suppressed premises to be too great to address. Please include fewer illogical arguments, hasty generalizations, straw men and obfuscations in your next thread.
	__________________ Follow me on Twitter! @LossLeader This force is receiving all the right to vote through the use of magic. - Miernik Wieslaw <NEW> VOTE FOR ME JUST BECAUSE <NEW>

1st December 2012, 06:11 AM	#53
Bikewer Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: St. Louis, Mo. Posts: 9,528	I was going to mention the Maoist China that Yomero linked to.... Eeew, ugly. I for one celebrate "La Differance". I'm old enough to recall when Mom wouldn't think of going "shopping' without getting all dolled up; pearls and makeup and the works. Back when likewise men wore suits unless they were in some sort of manual trade.

1st December 2012, 09:45 AM	#54
Profanz Muse Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 932	1987
Profanz Muse Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 932

1st December 2012, 10:44 AM	#55
Corsair 115 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Tranquility Base Posts: 8,576	Originally Posted by CplFerro The (public television) show came down on the side that psychology is pure culture, moulding a rasa clump of clay. It would be helpful if you could cite the specific program you're referencing. Then its claims could be examined directly and in context. As it stands now we are relying on your recollection of what was said in the program, a recollection which may well be inaccurate and/or incomplete.
	__________________ "We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win."