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Moon-Spinner · 15th November 2012, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by dafydd

Oh no?

I see I still have a lot to learn about ancient history

I Ratant · 15th November 2012, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

Actually, my question -- which I already asked several times before -- would be a whole other one: if the great old ones... err... alien astronauts were going to build something for their followers anyway, why not something more useful than a pyramid? I mean,. no matter what material you build it of, be it limestone blocks or th more logical concrete or Star Wars style plasteel, it's still just a frikken tomb. It has zero other uses.

For the mesoamerican pyramids, it's actually even more mind boggling, as they ONLY served as high places where to carve humans' heats out live unplugged, or to conduct some incredibly cruel torture as divination. Would a species which advanced as far as that kind of space travel, not only be as barbaric as to be entertained by savages putting each other or themselves through pointless horrible pain, but actually go the extra mile to build them a metric buttload of awe-inspiring places for that?

If you could actually travel to a stone-age planet with some primitive vaguely-humanoid inhabitants, would the ONLY thing that comes to mind that you can do for them, be to endorse and build structures where some unfortunate soul can get to drag a barbed ray spine through his penis until he hallucinates from pain and blood loss? Or set yourself up as a rain god and demand that little children be cruelly sacrificed to you on the pyramid you built for that? Oh, and if they don't cry on their way there -- tears are a good omen for a rain god, you know? -- they should get their fingernails pulled out first to make them cry. THAT would be what comes to mind as a contribution to those humanoids civilization?

And not just one deranged alien guy. Hundreds of ships, with maybe hundreds or thousands of crew each, plus the commanders and lawmakers at home getting those "met alien civilization, taught them to drag a barbed ray spine through penis" reports, all would see nothing wrong with that. How did such a species even get to survive, if everyone is such a complete psychopath? How did they get a civilization going at all?

But anyway... Why not teach them something of practical value? Why not teach them to boil drinking water? Why not teach them to build some ceramic filters, so they have a lifetime supply of drinking water without bacteria? Why not teach them something as simple as making a lightning rod as the holy symbol of your followers?

.
Those ancient travelers needed to look for the sign of the giant chicken or the big thing sticking up out of the desert to get anywhere on this planet, it appears.
However they navigated through space to get here, they couldn't install a simple ansible to beam themselves to, once they got here. Din't even make a crude waterwheel powered generator.. nor give the Aztecs the idea for a functioning wheel... but then, the Aztecs may have decamped to the north to get away from those bloody aliens, taking their household goods on carts, using draft animals.... like tame bisons.

JoeTheJuggler · 15th November 2012, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by lexicon008

roman colloseum and greek structures..thousands of years and still standing

The Colloseum has been in ruins for centuries. It was last used as an sporting amphitheater around the 6th Century.

Also, as pointed out, it made extensive use of concrete, and the wooden levels are long gone.

JoeTheJuggler · 15th November 2012, 08:24 AM

Originally Posted by Lucian

Actually, stone was a huge advancement for the ancient aliens. The first bunch of aliens used straw, but then the Great Space Wolf huffed, and he puffed, and he blew their pyramid down. The stick pyramid suffered the similar fate.

Jono · 15th November 2012, 08:25 AM

Duh. The aliens sent the dummest to this planet and told them to have fun with rocks. Imagine what it would've looked like had they sent the really brainy ones!

JoeTheJuggler · 15th November 2012, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by Travis

And why did they want plausible deniability?

They knew they were totally violating the Prime Directive.

HansMustermann · 15th November 2012, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

.
Those ancient travelers needed to look for the sign of the giant chicken or the big thing sticking up out of the desert to get anywhere on this planet, it appears.
However they navigated through space to get here, they couldn't install a simple ansible to beam themselves to, once they got here. Din't even make a crude waterwheel powered generator.. nor give the Aztecs the idea for a functioning wheel... but then, the Aztecs may have decamped to the north to get away from those bloody aliens, taking their household goods on carts, using draft animals.... like tame bisons.

While that question indeed has a lot of merit, I'd go even farther than that and ask: WTH do those aliens need a marker at all? And why THAT piss-poor marker?

Even a primitive civilization like ours is at the point where a space shuttle isn't landed by sight. And we're not talking about something that can fly around to look for an airport. The shuttle has no such capability. Its aerodynamics are not like for an airplane, where you want the most lift with the least drag. On the contrary, a shuttle must lose a lot of height and a lot of speed fast. It has less lift to drag ratio than a squirrel. LITERALLY. It starts at the incredible heights and more importantly the incredible speeds needed to orbit, and needs to lose that all the way down to zero by the end. It must lose speed fast per minute of flight, whereas an airplane is designed to lose the least speed. It's more like a rigid parachute than a real airplane.

What I'm guessing is that you don't have the luxury to land by sight. You don't have time to visually look for an airport. The coordinates and flight path are punched in before the de-orbit burn is even done, and it's already aimed at exactly what coordinates it will land.

Why would a civilization much more technologically advanced than ours (after all, we don't have FTL flight) not have that? Why would they land a spaceship by eyeballing for funny shapes on the ground?

If you actually need some visual markers to calculate and time a de-orbit burn on a foreign planet, you don't go by tiny shapes that are invisible from space. You take your coordinates for your next landing by big stuff that's visible from space: mountains, oceans, big lakes, etc. Then you know that your faithful tribe is at X kilometres from that mountain peak, and Y kilometres from that sea, and you punch that in your computer and it plots your descent with metre accuracy.

Those big drawings on the ground are the most stupid thing ever that a space-faring civilization could possibly use to land.

ETA: and really, a radio beacon ain't much better. You already have your coordinates from space anyway. It could help you narrow down your accuracy if you absolutely have to nail a runway, but those natives didn't build runways. So if you have a ship that can land anywhere anyway, and a mighty big plane, it doesn't really matter that you came 100m farther than the start of a runway (although presumably such a civilization could do better anyway). Worst case scenario you just walk 100m extra to the chieftain's house.

Orphia Nay · 15th November 2012, 01:27 PM

Well, like, they were really in tune with Nature, man, and liked natural stuff, you know, like traveling faster than the speed of light.

HansMustermann · 15th November 2012, 03:05 PM

Lol. A delightfully pithy response.

SUSpilot · 15th November 2012, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

While that question indeed has a lot of merit, I'd go even farther than that and ask: WTH do those aliens need a marker at all? And why THAT piss-poor marker?

Even a primitive civilization like ours is at the point where a space shuttle isn't landed by sight. And we're not talking about something that can fly around to look for an airport. The shuttle has no such capability. Its aerodynamics are not like for an airplane, where you want the most lift with the least drag. On the contrary, a shuttle must lose a lot of height and a lot of speed fast. It has less lift to drag ratio than a squirrel. LITERALLY. It starts at the incredible heights and more importantly the incredible speeds needed to orbit, and needs to lose that all the way down to zero by the end. It must lose speed fast per minute of flight, whereas an airplane is designed to lose the least speed. It's more like a rigid parachute than a real airplane.

What I'm guessing is that you don't have the luxury to land by sight. You don't have time to visually look for an airport. The coordinates and flight path are punched in before the de-orbit burn is even done, and it's already aimed at exactly what coordinates it will land.

Why would a civilization much more technologically advanced than ours (after all, we don't have FTL flight) not have that? Why would they land a spaceship by eyeballing for funny shapes on the ground?

If you actually need some visual markers to calculate and time a de-orbit burn on a foreign planet, you don't go by tiny shapes that are invisible from space. You take your coordinates for your next landing by big stuff that's visible from space: mountains, oceans, big lakes, etc. Then you know that your faithful tribe is at X kilometres from that mountain peak, and Y kilometres from that sea, and you punch that in your computer and it plots your descent with metre accuracy.

Those big drawings on the ground are the most stupid thing ever that a space-faring civilization could possibly use to land.

ETA: and really, a radio beacon ain't much better. You already have your coordinates from space anyway. It could help you narrow down your accuracy if you absolutely have to nail a runway, but those natives didn't build runways. So if you have a ship that can land anywhere anyway, and a mighty big plane, it doesn't really matter that you came 100m farther than the start of a runway (although presumably such a civilization could do better anyway). Worst case scenario you just walk 100m extra to the chieftain's house.

Although you're mostly correct, the Shuttle did use radio for terminal guidance (Microwave Scanning Beam Landing System). And it was never, ever landed in instrument conditions, with the crew well-versed in landing it visually.

Garnabby · 15th November 2012, 03:42 PM

We're the "ancient aliens", can't you tell?

An uncomfortably-paradoxical blip in the middle of the evolutionary chain... the "viable mutation".

To the natural stuff before us, nature will as-soon revert.

I Ratant · 15th November 2012, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

...
Even a primitive civilization like ours is at the point where a space shuttle isn't landed by sight. And we're not talking about something that can fly around to look for an airport. The shuttle has no such capability. Its aerodynamics are not like for an airplane, where you want the most lift with the least drag. On the contrary, a shuttle must lose a lot of height and a lot of speed fast. It has less lift to drag ratio than a squirrel. LITERALLY. It starts at the incredible heights and more importantly the incredible speeds needed to orbit, and needs to lose that all the way down to zero by the end. It must lose speed fast per minute of flight, whereas an airplane is designed to lose the least speed. It's more like a rigid parachute than a real airplane.

...

.
When Columbia landed at Edwards for the actual first time a space ship has landed on Earth, it came overhead just above Mach 1, with us (Lockheed) waiting there to weigh it, at about 50,000 feet. It was on the ground about 2 minutes later. It reminded me of the world's largest tool box being dropped from that altitude.
Before leaving orbit it had opportunities to select a landing site, but once on the de-orbit descent path, no options other than what was selected.

HansMustermann · 15th November 2012, 11:39 PM

Originally Posted by SUSpilot

Although you're mostly correct, the Shuttle did use radio for terminal guidance (Microwave Scanning Beam Landing System). And it was never, ever landed in instrument conditions, with the crew well-versed in landing it visually.

Well, as I was saying in that ETA, I can see the need for terminal guidance when missing the runway by 100m would be rather catastrophic, as it is for the shuttle. But when talking about an alien craft which obviously doesn't need a runway, because those natives didn't build any for the supposed aliens, and a great big plain to land on, I'd say they can do just fine without a beacon.

Orphia Nay · 16th November 2012, 01:09 AM

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

Lol. A delightfully pithy response.

Thanks! How about a nom?

Jack by the hedge · 16th November 2012, 01:32 AM

Give an ancient civilization some pyramids, and they'll just have some pyramids.

Teach an ancient civilization to build pyramids and... well, OK, they'll have some pyramids.

Needs work.

HansMustermann · 16th November 2012, 02:08 AM

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay

Thanks! How about a nom?

Done.

I Ratant · 16th November 2012, 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

Give an ancient civilization some pyramids, and they'll just have some pyramids.

Teach an ancient civilization to build pyramids and... well, OK, they'll have some pyramids.

Needs work.

.
Good'un!

Moon-Spinner · 16th November 2012, 11:29 AM

Maybe the New-Agers are correct, and even the Ancient Astronauts knew of the magical power hidden in crystals and rocks, so that's why they build things using rocks. Dang, and now that knowledge is lost to us modern humans!

SUSpilot · 16th November 2012, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

Well, as I was saying in that ETA, I can see the need for terminal guidance when missing the runway by 100m would be rather catastrophic, as it is for the shuttle. But when talking about an alien craft which obviously doesn't need a runway, because those natives didn't build any for the supposed aliens, and a great big plain to land on, I'd say they can do just fine without a beacon.

Kinda like the LM (minus the craters). Fair 'nuff.

Jimbo07 · 16th November 2012, 08:48 PM

Is 'ancient aliens' still a thing?

Travis · 16th November 2012, 09:33 PM

Well The History Channel thankfully banished it to their secondary channel. Leaving room for yet more shows about people buying up junk.

Moon-Spinner · 17th November 2012, 07:00 AM

Originally Posted by Travis

Well The History Channel thankfully banished it to their secondary channel. Leaving room for yet more shows about people buying up junk.

For years these "Educational" channels have really been stretching to fill up programming time. I use to watch these channels regularly, but I have pretty much tossed them aside, they've gone to where MTV went a long time ago...

And now back to our discussion about Ancient Astronauts

Moss · 17th November 2012, 09:14 AM

I think it is interesting that most of the buildings that are considered as possibly invented by aliens tend to be on the monumental scale. The "wow that's big, how could those primitives have done that?" idea is alive and well in such moments.
What I find interesting that the kind of tools they postulate for the aliens to have apparently do not include tools that allow some kind of fine control. It's all moving huge blocks and cutting hard rock, but not small intricate things.

JoeTheJuggler · 17th November 2012, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by Jimbo07

Is 'ancient aliens' still a thing?

Well I for one stand firmly against any amnesty program that includes a pathway for them to become "ancient citizens"!

Jodie · 17th November 2012, 09:53 AM

I don't think ancient aliens built anything, stone was used simply because it's durable.

Jimbo07 · 17th November 2012, 10:05 PM

Originally Posted by Moss

The "wow that's big, how could those primitives have done that?" idea is alive and well in such moments.

It's a gigantic argument from ignorance.

"I don't know how it's done, so how could those primitives?"

There are those who believe that even modern engineers can't achieve certain things...

...Look, 90% of people who use iPhones these days would be toast competing against ancient engineers. There's nothing magical about being modern which makes one smart.

On the other hand, if you're vaguely aware of the astounding things modern engineers are achieving, you have to ask, "what's the big deal about a big pile of rocks?"

Assuming some measure of technological 'progress,' what wonders might engineers achieve 2000 years from now?

HotNostril · 17th November 2012, 11:16 PM

It was simply for pure entertainment! The Aliens were bored, so they enslaved the humans, forced them to build pyramids so they could point and laugh. The aliens recorded the whole thing and beamed it back to their home planet thus creating the very first "reality tv" the aliens are still around, there latest contribution to the human race is the Bravo channel!

smartcooky · 26th November 2012, 11:19 PM

Firstly, let me say that I don't have any problem, in theory, with the concept of "Ancient Aliens", I just don't think there is any chance whatsoever that they have been here in the time of man.

Its a matter of time scales. Earth is 4½ billion years old, in a universe that is three times as old as that. Anatomically modern humans have only been around for about 0.002 of one percent of that time, technological man only for about 0.000001 of one percent. Its is a minuscule window of opportunity. If "Ancient Aliens" nuts like Tsoukalos are right, then such alien visitation would have been in the last 10,000 years. This is virtually yesterday....extremely unlikely.

I am inclined to think that, if there have been alien visitations to this planet, it would surely have been so long ago that there would be no chance of any physical evidence remaining. Not even as recently as Clarke's proposal in "2001: A Space Odyssey". I am thinking many millions, if not hundreds of millions of years.

booNyzarC · 3rd December 2012, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by Lucian

Actually, stone was a huge advancement for the ancient aliens. The first bunch of aliens used straw, but then the Great Space Wolf huffed, and he puffed, and he blew their pyramid down. The stick pyramid suffered the similar fate.

That's brilliant.

I might have to borrow that and use it elsewhere.

Mudcat · 3rd December 2012, 04:36 PM

In some science-fiction, such as the late Stargate series, there have been advanced space faring races that use crystal based technology. If there any such races like that exist in real life than the stone's quartz lattice could be a sort of superconductors for whatever powers their ships.

Or something like that.

pakeha · 4th December 2012, 12:37 AM

^
Here's an example of a quartz artifact used by the ancients as an energy conduit.

MikeG · 4th December 2012, 01:04 AM

Originally Posted by pakeha

^
Here's an example of a quartz artifact used by the ancients as an energy conduit.

I'm not sure how to take your post. You link to a carved crystal bowl, and talk about an "energy conduit". I assume you mean this is a way of keeping soup warm.......

Mike

pakeha · 4th December 2012, 02:40 AM

Crystal bowl, indeed!
It's a KRATERISKOS, for wine, that gift of the gods/ancient aliens/tipsy hominid ancestors.

Edx · 4th December 2012, 02:58 AM

HIGH TECH materials.

Edx · 4th December 2012, 02:59 AM

Originally Posted by Lucian

Actually, stone was a huge advancement for the ancient aliens. The first bunch of aliens used straw, but then the Great Space Wolf huffed, and he puffed, and he blew their pyramid down. The stick pyramid suffered the similar fate.

You win the thread.

Miss_Kitt · 4th December 2012, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

.
Those ancient travelers needed to look for the sign of the giant chicken or the big thing sticking up out of the desert to get anywhere on this planet, it appears.
However they navigated through space to get here, they couldn't install a simple ansible to beam themselves to, once they got here. Din't even make a crude waterwheel powered generator.. nor give the Aztecs the idea for a functioning wheel... but then, the Aztecs may have decamped to the north to get away from those bloody aliens, taking their household goods on carts, using draft animals.... like tame bisons.

Can't speak to the Aztecs, but the Inca actually *had* the wheel -- on children's toys. It was not used for transportation, however; when I was younger, I was puzzled by this. Then I got old enough to understand the topography and climate of the Incan empire, and all became clear. If it ain't steep or swampy, it's overgrown in no time. They built elaborate running paths, and even those took ongoing maintenance--what use is a wheel when you're trying to avoid going downhill?

-- end pedant mode, MK

Travis · 5th December 2012, 10:49 AM

Wheels are also not particularly useful unless you put them on something like a cart.....which requires an animal that can pull it.

15th November 2012, 08:13 AM	#43
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 27,171	Originally Posted by lexicon008 roman colloseum and greek structures..thousands of years and still standing The Colloseum has been in ruins for centuries. It was last used as an sporting amphitheater around the 6th Century. Also, as pointed out, it made extensive use of concrete, and the wooden levels are long gone.
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons

15th November 2012, 08:24 AM	#44
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 27,171	Originally Posted by Lucian Actually, stone was a huge advancement for the ancient aliens. The first bunch of aliens used straw, but then the Great Space Wolf huffed, and he puffed, and he blew their pyramid down. The stick pyramid suffered the similar fate.
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons

15th November 2012, 08:25 AM	#45
Jono Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,614	Duh. The aliens sent the dummest to this planet and told them to have fun with rocks. Imagine what it would've looked like had they sent the really brainy ones!
	__________________ "I don't believe I ever saw an Oklahoman who wouldn't fight at the drop of a hat -- and frequently drop the hat himself." - Robert E. Howard

15th November 2012, 08:28 AM	#46
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 27,171	Originally Posted by Travis And why did they want plausible deniability? They knew they were totally violating the Prime Directive.
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons

15th November 2012, 11:15 AM	#47
HansMustermann Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 9,903	Originally Posted by I Ratant . Those ancient travelers needed to look for the sign of the giant chicken or the big thing sticking up out of the desert to get anywhere on this planet, it appears. However they navigated through space to get here, they couldn't install a simple ansible to beam themselves to, once they got here. Din't even make a crude waterwheel powered generator.. nor give the Aztecs the idea for a functioning wheel... but then, the Aztecs may have decamped to the north to get away from those bloody aliens, taking their household goods on carts, using draft animals.... like tame bisons. While that question indeed has a lot of merit, I'd go even farther than that and ask: WTH do those aliens need a marker at all? And why THAT piss-poor marker? Even a primitive civilization like ours is at the point where a space shuttle isn't landed by sight. And we're not talking about something that can fly around to look for an airport. The shuttle has no such capability. Its aerodynamics are not like for an airplane, where you want the most lift with the least drag. On the contrary, a shuttle must lose a lot of height and a lot of speed fast. It has less lift to drag ratio than a squirrel. LITERALLY. It starts at the incredible heights and more importantly the incredible speeds needed to orbit, and needs to lose that all the way down to zero by the end. It must lose speed fast per minute of flight, whereas an airplane is designed to lose the least speed. It's more like a rigid parachute than a real airplane. What I'm guessing is that you don't have the luxury to land by sight. You don't have time to visually look for an airport. The coordinates and flight path are punched in before the de-orbit burn is even done, and it's already aimed at exactly what coordinates it will land. Why would a civilization much more technologically advanced than ours (after all, we don't have FTL flight) not have that? Why would they land a spaceship by eyeballing for funny shapes on the ground? If you actually need some visual markers to calculate and time a de-orbit burn on a foreign planet, you don't go by tiny shapes that are invisible from space. You take your coordinates for your next landing by big stuff that's visible from space: mountains, oceans, big lakes, etc. Then you know that your faithful tribe is at X kilometres from that mountain peak, and Y kilometres from that sea, and you punch that in your computer and it plots your descent with metre accuracy. Those big drawings on the ground are the most stupid thing ever that a space-faring civilization could possibly use to land. ETA: and really, a radio beacon ain't much better. You already have your coordinates from space anyway. It could help you narrow down your accuracy if you absolutely have to nail a runway, but those natives didn't build runways. So if you have a ship that can land anywhere anyway, and a mighty big plane, it doesn't really matter that you came 100m farther than the start of a runway (although presumably such a civilization could do better anyway). Worst case scenario you just walk 100m extra to the chieftain's house.
	__________________ Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand? Last edited by HansMustermann; 15th November 2012 at 11:18 AM.

15th November 2012, 07:54 AM	#41
Moon-Spinner Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Within a star too far to dream of Posts: 1,489	Originally Posted by dafydd Oh no? I see I still have a lot to learn about ancient history

15th November 2012, 08:06 AM	#42
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by HansMustermann Actually, my question -- which I already asked several times before -- would be a whole other one: if the great old ones... err... alien astronauts were going to build something for their followers anyway, why not something more useful than a pyramid? I mean,. no matter what material you build it of, be it limestone blocks or th more logical concrete or Star Wars style plasteel, it's still just a frikken tomb. It has zero other uses. For the mesoamerican pyramids, it's actually even more mind boggling, as they ONLY served as high places where to carve humans' heats out live unplugged, or to conduct some incredibly cruel torture as divination. Would a species which advanced as far as that kind of space travel, not only be as barbaric as to be entertained by savages putting each other or themselves through pointless horrible pain, but actually go the extra mile to build them a metric buttload of awe-inspiring places for that? If you could actually travel to a stone-age planet with some primitive vaguely-humanoid inhabitants, would the ONLY thing that comes to mind that you can do for them, be to endorse and build structures where some unfortunate soul can get to drag a barbed ray spine through his penis until he hallucinates from pain and blood loss? Or set yourself up as a rain god and demand that little children be cruelly sacrificed to you on the pyramid you built for that? Oh, and if they don't cry on their way there -- tears are a good omen for a rain god, you know? -- they should get their fingernails pulled out first to make them cry. THAT would be what comes to mind as a contribution to those humanoids civilization? And not just one deranged alien guy. Hundreds of ships, with maybe hundreds or thousands of crew each, plus the commanders and lawmakers at home getting those "met alien civilization, taught them to drag a barbed ray spine through penis" reports, all would see nothing wrong with that. How did such a species even get to survive, if everyone is such a complete psychopath? How did they get a civilization going at all? But anyway... Why not teach them something of practical value? Why not teach them to boil drinking water? Why not teach them to build some ceramic filters, so they have a lifetime supply of drinking water without bacteria? Why not teach them something as simple as making a lightning rod as the holy symbol of your followers? . Those ancient travelers needed to look for the sign of the giant chicken or the big thing sticking up out of the desert to get anywhere on this planet, it appears. However they navigated through space to get here, they couldn't install a simple ansible to beam themselves to, once they got here. Din't even make a crude waterwheel powered generator.. nor give the Aztecs the idea for a functioning wheel... but then, the Aztecs may have decamped to the north to get away from those bloody aliens, taking their household goods on carts, using draft animals.... like tame bisons.

15th November 2012, 01:27 PM	#48
Orphia Nay Penguilicious Spodmaster. Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables). Posts: 28,821	Well, like, they were really in tune with Nature, man, and liked natural stuff, you know, like traveling faster than the speed of light.
	__________________ Are you an ex-Truther? Please share your story. ~ The Australasian Skeptics Forum.

15th November 2012, 03:05 PM	#49
HansMustermann Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 9,903	Lol. A delightfully pithy response.
	__________________ Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

15th November 2012, 03:25 PM	#50
SUSpilot Muse Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 722	Originally Posted by HansMustermann While that question indeed has a lot of merit, I'd go even farther than that and ask: WTH do those aliens need a marker at all? And why THAT piss-poor marker? Even a primitive civilization like ours is at the point where a space shuttle isn't landed by sight. And we're not talking about something that can fly around to look for an airport. The shuttle has no such capability. Its aerodynamics are not like for an airplane, where you want the most lift with the least drag. On the contrary, a shuttle must lose a lot of height and a lot of speed fast. It has less lift to drag ratio than a squirrel. LITERALLY. It starts at the incredible heights and more importantly the incredible speeds needed to orbit, and needs to lose that all the way down to zero by the end. It must lose speed fast per minute of flight, whereas an airplane is designed to lose the least speed. It's more like a rigid parachute than a real airplane. What I'm guessing is that you don't have the luxury to land by sight. You don't have time to visually look for an airport. The coordinates and flight path are punched in before the de-orbit burn is even done, and it's already aimed at exactly what coordinates it will land. Why would a civilization much more technologically advanced than ours (after all, we don't have FTL flight) not have that? Why would they land a spaceship by eyeballing for funny shapes on the ground? If you actually need some visual markers to calculate and time a de-orbit burn on a foreign planet, you don't go by tiny shapes that are invisible from space. You take your coordinates for your next landing by big stuff that's visible from space: mountains, oceans, big lakes, etc. Then you know that your faithful tribe is at X kilometres from that mountain peak, and Y kilometres from that sea, and you punch that in your computer and it plots your descent with metre accuracy. Those big drawings on the ground are the most stupid thing ever that a space-faring civilization could possibly use to land. ETA: and really, a radio beacon ain't much better. You already have your coordinates from space anyway. It could help you narrow down your accuracy if you absolutely have to nail a runway, but those natives didn't build runways. So if you have a ship that can land anywhere anyway, and a mighty big plane, it doesn't really matter that you came 100m farther than the start of a runway (although presumably such a civilization could do better anyway). Worst case scenario you just walk 100m extra to the chieftain's house. Although you're mostly correct, the Shuttle did use radio for terminal guidance (Microwave Scanning Beam Landing System). And it was never, ever landed in instrument conditions, with the crew well-versed in landing it visually.
SUSpilot Muse Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 722

15th November 2012, 03:42 PM	#51
Garnabby New Blood Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 23	We're the "ancient aliens", can't you tell? An uncomfortably-paradoxical blip in the middle of the evolutionary chain... the "viable mutation". To the natural stuff before us, nature will as-soon revert.
Garnabby New Blood Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 23	Last edited by Garnabby; 15th November 2012 at 03:43 PM.

15th November 2012, 04:57 PM	#52
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by HansMustermann ... Even a primitive civilization like ours is at the point where a space shuttle isn't landed by sight. And we're not talking about something that can fly around to look for an airport. The shuttle has no such capability. Its aerodynamics are not like for an airplane, where you want the most lift with the least drag. On the contrary, a shuttle must lose a lot of height and a lot of speed fast. It has less lift to drag ratio than a squirrel. LITERALLY. It starts at the incredible heights and more importantly the incredible speeds needed to orbit, and needs to lose that all the way down to zero by the end. It must lose speed fast per minute of flight, whereas an airplane is designed to lose the least speed. It's more like a rigid parachute than a real airplane. ... . When Columbia landed at Edwards for the actual first time a space ship has landed on Earth, it came overhead just above Mach 1, with us (Lockheed) waiting there to weigh it, at about 50,000 feet. It was on the ground about 2 minutes later. It reminded me of the world's largest tool box being dropped from that altitude. Before leaving orbit it had opportunities to select a landing site, but once on the de-orbit descent path, no options other than what was selected.

15th November 2012, 11:39 PM	#53
HansMustermann Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 9,903	Originally Posted by SUSpilot Although you're mostly correct, the Shuttle did use radio for terminal guidance (Microwave Scanning Beam Landing System). And it was never, ever landed in instrument conditions, with the crew well-versed in landing it visually. Well, as I was saying in that ETA, I can see the need for terminal guidance when missing the runway by 100m would be rather catastrophic, as it is for the shuttle. But when talking about an alien craft which obviously doesn't need a runway, because those natives didn't build any for the supposed aliens, and a great big plain to land on, I'd say they can do just fine without a beacon.
	__________________ Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

16th November 2012, 01:09 AM	#54
Orphia Nay Penguilicious Spodmaster. Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables). Posts: 28,821	Originally Posted by HansMustermann Lol. A delightfully pithy response. Thanks! How about a nom?
	__________________ Are you an ex-Truther? Please share your story. ~ The Australasian Skeptics Forum.

16th November 2012, 01:32 AM	#55
Jack by the hedge Safely Ignored Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,511	Give an ancient civilization some pyramids, and they'll just have some pyramids. Teach an ancient civilization to build pyramids and... well, OK, they'll have some pyramids. Needs work.

16th November 2012, 02:08 AM	#56
HansMustermann Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 9,903	Originally Posted by Orphia Nay Thanks! How about a nom? Done.
	__________________ Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

16th November 2012, 09:13 AM	#57
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge Give an ancient civilization some pyramids, and they'll just have some pyramids. Teach an ancient civilization to build pyramids and... well, OK, they'll have some pyramids. Needs work. . Good'un!

16th November 2012, 11:29 AM	#58
Moon-Spinner Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Within a star too far to dream of Posts: 1,489	Maybe the New-Agers are correct, and even the Ancient Astronauts knew of the magical power hidden in crystals and rocks, so that's why they build things using rocks. Dang, and now that knowledge is lost to us modern humans!

16th November 2012, 02:34 PM	#59
SUSpilot Muse Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 722	Originally Posted by HansMustermann Well, as I was saying in that ETA, I can see the need for terminal guidance when missing the runway by 100m would be rather catastrophic, as it is for the shuttle. But when talking about an alien craft which obviously doesn't need a runway, because those natives didn't build any for the supposed aliens, and a great big plain to land on, I'd say they can do just fine without a beacon. Kinda like the LM (minus the craters). Fair 'nuff.
SUSpilot Muse Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 722

16th November 2012, 08:48 PM	#60
Jimbo07 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,426	Is 'ancient aliens' still a thing?
Jimbo07 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,426	__________________ This post approved by your local jPac (Jimbo07 Political Action Committee), also registered with Jimbo07 as the Jimbo07 Equality Rights Knowledge Betterment Action Group. Atoms in supernova explosion get huge business -- Pixie of key

16th November 2012, 09:33 PM	#61
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tuolumne City, CA Posts: 18,105	Well The History Channel thankfully banished it to their secondary channel. Leaving room for yet more shows about people buying up junk.
	__________________ "Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com Zingiber Officinale The Humor blog of some not crazy guy

17th November 2012, 07:00 AM	#62
Moon-Spinner Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Within a star too far to dream of Posts: 1,489	Originally Posted by Travis Well The History Channel thankfully banished it to their secondary channel. Leaving room for yet more shows about people buying up junk. For years these "Educational" channels have really been stretching to fill up programming time. I use to watch these channels regularly, but I have pretty much tossed them aside, they've gone to where MTV went a long time ago... And now back to our discussion about Ancient Astronauts

17th November 2012, 09:14 AM	#63
Moss Dramatocrat Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Heiligsblechle country Posts: 3,229	I think it is interesting that most of the buildings that are considered as possibly invented by aliens tend to be on the monumental scale. The "wow that's big, how could those primitives have done that?" idea is alive and well in such moments. What I find interesting that the kind of tools they postulate for the aliens to have apparently do not include tools that allow some kind of fine control. It's all moving huge blocks and cutting hard rock, but not small intricate things.

17th November 2012, 09:23 AM	#64
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 27,171	Originally Posted by Jimbo07 Is 'ancient aliens' still a thing? Well I for one stand firmly against any amnesty program that includes a pathway for them to become "ancient citizens"!
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons

17th November 2012, 09:53 AM	#65
Jodie Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 1,919	I don't think ancient aliens built anything, stone was used simply because it's durable.
Jodie Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 1,919	__________________ testis unus, testis nullus quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur

17th November 2012, 10:05 PM	#66
Jimbo07 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,426	Originally Posted by Moss The "wow that's big, how could those primitives have done that?" idea is alive and well in such moments. It's a gigantic argument from ignorance. "I don't know how it's done, so how could those primitives?" There are those who believe that even modern engineers can't achieve certain things... ...Look, 90% of people who use iPhones these days would be toast competing against ancient engineers. There's nothing magical about being modern which makes one smart. On the other hand, if you're vaguely aware of the astounding things modern engineers are achieving, you have to ask, "what's the big deal about a big pile of rocks?" Assuming some measure of technological 'progress,' what wonders might engineers achieve 2000 years from now?
Jimbo07 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,426	__________________ This post approved by your local jPac (Jimbo07 Political Action Committee), also registered with Jimbo07 as the Jimbo07 Equality Rights Knowledge Betterment Action Group. Atoms in supernova explosion get huge business -- Pixie of key

17th November 2012, 11:16 PM	#67
HotNostril Student Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 42	It was simply for pure entertainment! The Aliens were bored, so they enslaved the humans, forced them to build pyramids so they could point and laugh. The aliens recorded the whole thing and beamed it back to their home planet thus creating the very first "reality tv" the aliens are still around, there latest contribution to the human race is the Bravo channel!
HotNostril Student Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 42

26th November 2012, 11:19 PM	#68
smartcooky Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 1,005	Firstly, let me say that I don't have any problem, in theory, with the concept of "Ancient Aliens", I just don't think there is any chance whatsoever that they have been here in the time of man. Its a matter of time scales. Earth is 4½ billion years old, in a universe that is three times as old as that. Anatomically modern humans have only been around for about 0.002 of one percent of that time, technological man only for about 0.000001 of one percent. Its is a minuscule window of opportunity. If "Ancient Aliens" nuts like Tsoukalos are right, then such alien visitation would have been in the last 10,000 years. This is virtually yesterday....extremely unlikely. I am inclined to think that, if there have been alien visitations to this planet, it would surely have been so long ago that there would be no chance of any physical evidence remaining. Not even as recently as Clarke's proposal in "2001: A Space Odyssey". I am thinking many millions, if not hundreds of millions of years.
	__________________ _{OCCAMS Razor 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Muslim extremists who were organised by Osama Bin Laden. The Apollo astronauts walked on the Moon JFK was assassinated by a single gunmen, Lee Harvey Oswald, who acted alone} Last edited by smartcooky; 26th November 2012 at 11:26 PM.

3rd December 2012, 03:34 PM	#69
booNyzarC Scholar Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 54	Originally Posted by Lucian Actually, stone was a huge advancement for the ancient aliens. The first bunch of aliens used straw, but then the Great Space Wolf huffed, and he puffed, and he blew their pyramid down. The stick pyramid suffered the similar fate. That's brilliant. I might have to borrow that and use it elsewhere.
booNyzarC Scholar Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 54

3rd December 2012, 04:36 PM	#70
Mudcat Man of a Thousand Memes Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 3,769	In some science-fiction, such as the late Stargate series, there have been advanced space faring races that use crystal based technology. If there any such races like that exist in real life than the stone's quartz lattice could be a sort of superconductors for whatever powers their ships. Or something like that.
	__________________ The major problem with Ocham's Razor is that while the simplest answer may be the best answer that doesn't make it the only answer or the right one. Kopji: A perfect utopia where everyone follows the rules is more like a hell than a heaven. Last edited by Mudcat; 3rd December 2012 at 04:37 PM.

4th December 2012, 12:37 AM	#71
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 8,247	^ Here's an example of a quartz artifact used by the ancients as an energy conduit.
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 8,247

4th December 2012, 01:04 AM	#72
MikeG Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: UK Posts: 1,707	Originally Posted by pakeha ^ Here's an example of a quartz artifact used by the ancients as an energy conduit. I'm not sure how to take your post. You link to a carved crystal bowl, and talk about an "energy conduit". I assume you mean this is a way of keeping soup warm....... Mike

4th December 2012, 02:40 AM	#73
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 8,247	Crystal bowl, indeed! It's a KRATERISKOS, for wine, that gift of the gods/ancient aliens/tipsy hominid ancestors.
pakeha Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 8,247

4th December 2012, 02:58 AM	#74
Edx Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 4,323	HIGH TECH materials.
Edx Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 4,323	__________________ http://www.youtube.com/user/TheSkepticalIdealist

4th December 2012, 02:59 AM	#75
Edx Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 4,323	Originally Posted by Lucian Actually, stone was a huge advancement for the ancient aliens. The first bunch of aliens used straw, but then the Great Space Wolf huffed, and he puffed, and he blew their pyramid down. The stick pyramid suffered the similar fate. You win the thread.
Edx Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 4,323	__________________ http://www.youtube.com/user/TheSkepticalIdealist