Any thoughts on "Drawing on the right side of the brain" by Betty Edwards

[aargh57]

Hi,

I just bought a banjo course that references this book as a way to help develop(maybe not the best word to describe it) the right side of the brain. Looking at Amazon, it seems a bit woo to me (there's a new version out now). Anyway, does anyone have any insight into this? Here's a link to the book on amazon: http://www.amazon.com/The-Drawing-Ri...cm_rdp_product


Thanks

[Woolgatherer]

Drawing on the right side of the brain is a great book for learning how to draw. You begin to look at negative space and look at the perceptual relationship between areas you're drawing. I can't say you're actually developing the right side of the brain though.

[Vortigern99]

Yeah, the book's techniques are genuine and effective, whether the science behind it is "right brain vs. left brain" or not.

I've taught people (kids and adults) to draw using the book's techniques.

[calebprime]

There are different functions in the right and left hemispheres of most peoples' brains, with most right-handed people having a left hemisphere dominant and more capable of speech.

However, some of these books pile on the oppositions (intuitive vs. logical, creative vs. not) in a way that's not justified. And that's certainly true of _Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain_, iirc. There's nothing less "creative" about your left hemisphere, it's just different.

Doing music, though, does involve shutting up and doing it, without your inner verbal monkey chattering away too much. Also, finding strategies that bypass your usual schemas, licks, habits can be very useful.

Mick Goodrick, a guitar teacher, mentioned one such strategy: Playing on one string, to force yourself to not let your hand fall into habitual shapes.

Another: Singing along.

I think the strategies can be tried on their own without worrying about what exactly your brain is doing.

Speculation: Damage to your right temporal lobe (if you're right-handed) is likely to cause some problems with perception of certain aspects of music. But these effects are variable and controversial.

Anecdote: I once had a piano tuner come over and tune my piano, after a he'd had a tumor removed from his right hemisphere. He couldn't hear well enough anymore to do an effective job, and he hadn't figured out work-arounds yet. For example, he could have learned to rely on a visual tuner. (I speculate that he no longer had the sensitivity to the tonal variations caused by beating that makes tuning by ear possible.) I've since had several tuners who were more than adequate. This man slammed the lid down in frustration when I tested his temperament, and told him it was too far out from equal temperament.

[TimCallahan]

Since I'm left-handed, am I not always drawing on the right side of the brain?

[Tiktaalik]

Right-brain creativity has been essentially debunked; see this article (and others) referencing a psychological study:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ans...ght-brain.html

[aargh57]

So, bottom line. Will it help me play the banjo better?

[calebprime]

Probably not, but anything that keeps you motivated and keeps your rear in the chair (or whatever) will help.

The genius jazz pianist Kenny Werner wrote a book called _Effortless Mastery_ that is both psychologically silly and involves much pure woo. But he makes some good points. One is that you somehow must overcome fear-based learning. Some people find it easy to relax, some don't. Some (like me) are naturally filled with anxiety and shame, no matter what. Some aren't.

I'd recommend taping yourself from time to time. Not all the time.

Balance jamming, being in flow, with more deliberate, more analytical work. Both are necessary.

I don't mean to sound like I'm giving advice to you any more than I'm reminding myself of these things. I still think about this stuff a lot.

[Bikewer]

I read that years ago, and thought that the various techniques were pretty credible. Then I found that Edwards had merely compiled techniques known for hundreds of years. She'd just put them into one handy volume and added the stuff about left/right brain function that were unknown to our artist ancestors.
Mostly good solid drawing advice, I found.

As to playing the banjo, sometimes the best thing is to invest in a towel. That's to stuff between the head and the tension bar to function as a mute. Sometimes improves family relations during the learning process.

[aargh57]

To clarify, I've played for about 9 years now, but was considering the book if there was anything to this l/r brain thing. BTW, you can buy a mute for about $20 which is much better than the towel trick IMO.

[calebprime]

Ok, now that I've got you and Bikewer right here on the same page:

List, if you will, 2 recordings of the purest, most locked-in, pickinest banjo playing. I'll request at the library, because my Internetz won't play music. I want to take a CD into my man-cave, for careful study.

Recording made after 1950, and stereo.

Heavy on the fast picking, very light on the commercial appeal.

I like Bela Fleck fine, but I was thinking more like Earl Scruggs.

Just need some tips.

[fuelair]

Originally Posted by Bikewer

I read that years ago, and thought that the various techniques were pretty credible. Then I found that Edwards had merely compiled techniques known for hundreds of years. She'd just put them into one handy volume and added the stuff about left/right brain function that were unknown to our artist ancestors.
Mostly good solid drawing advice, I found.

As to playing the banjo, sometimes the best thing is to invest in a towel. That's to stuff between the head and the tension bar to function as a mute. Sometimes improves family relations during the learning process.

That latter is not at all bad for brass and wind instruments either.
Just position the cloth as appropriate.

[Rrose Selavy]

The early chapters of the book are the most useful with the pure contour drawing exercises and others are the most useful. But the later chapters on say handwriting and later expanded editions are not essential or necessary.

However as a life drawing teacher, I do recommend the above to my students.
i also have a copy of "The Natural Way to Draw" by Kimon Nicolaides which Edward's references but it's a heavy and dour volume of intense often repetitive exercises, of 25 15 hour lessons, impractical for most causal users.
See the reviews here;
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Natural-.../dp/0395530075

[Beerina]

Originally Posted by TimCallahan

Since I'm left-handed, am I not always drawing on the right side of the brain?

Good question. I always assumed people who were (naturally) left-handed had the functions of the brain halves swapped.

[Trish Randall]

The idea that the left brain is the logical/mathematical/realistic side & the right brain is creative/artistic/romantic side has long been debunked.

There have been cases where children are either born without a hemisphere, or lose one hemisphere very young due to surgery/illness. The children with one hemisphere grow up to be able to do all human functions.

That some functions are one one side of the brain or the other seems to be due to the kind of randomness that causes so many properties developed via evolution.

Also, I notice that artists attribute artistic ability or techniques to things that may or may not be the real cause. Perhaps thinking you're using your "left brain" is a way people give themselves an excuse to abandon longstanding habits.

[Weak Kitten]

Strangely I have never actually read this book. I've done a lot of the exercises in the book but I've never actually read it. My instructors over the years have never actually talked about it so I assume they liked the exercises but considered the rest to be unnecessary at best.

[calebprime]

Originally Posted by Trish Randall

...
There have been cases where children are either born without a hemisphere, or lose one hemisphere very young due to surgery/illness. The children with one hemisphere grow up to be able to do all human functions.

...

All true, but...

As the article linked above noted, we need a kind of shorthand to describe something vague like "creativity" that actually involves many parts of the brain, and many different kinds of tasks.

The idea in the book in question, iirc, was to replace schemas (such as stick-figures) with something like perception of literal visual images. Instead of drawing an abstract idea of a face with a schema that involves a circle, two eyes, a nose, a mouth, etc., to draw what actually presents itself to view. This is an entirely different process, and produces different results.

In music, a parallel might be something like: instead of playing your favorite hand pattern involving, say, a pentatonic scale, sing something to yourself first, then put your fingers in the right places. A different skill, different results.

But that's trivial to describe, and doesn't get to the subtle stuff.

I've re-written the next part several times, and I have no intention of being annoying. Because it's something I feel very strongly about, it's actually beside the point. So feel free to ignore:

I was going to say that despite plasticity, people who are missing a hemisphere from infancy probably don't grow up to be major talents.

But the problem I'd have showing this is that standards for musical skill are all over the place, and people love miracle stories. What's a major talent, anyway? 60 minutes, for example, featured some autistic savants who really weren't very good musicians. There was simply too much that they couldn't do. But people seem to find such stories uplifting, whereas I find them symptomatic of a culture that prefers novelty and sensation and a bit of circus to actual musical achievement. Most people just aren't trained to tell the difference.

If there were someone who, because of epilepsy, say, had their right temporal lobe removed at age five, could they go on to achieve at the highest musical level, without having some real deficits? The deficits wouldn't be obvious to someone in the audience, but would show up with musical testing, and would show up in the test-by-conservatory-ordeal that many of us went through. As the saying goes, it takes talent to recognize talent.

For example, I read a book about a kid who suffered massive head injuries who went on to win some contests as an Elvis impersonator. Some would call that major musical talent, but it's too narrow: It's an act. He couldn't compose or improvise or read music or understand theory or keep really good time or vary his material with mastery or be spontaneous or understand different styles, etc. etc.

As we went through music school and lived with each other for a few years, it became obvious who had what kinds of talents: People did what they could. It was glaringly obvious if you lived there, but it would be very hard to describe, and almost impossible to prove to someone, especially if they didn't want to believe it.

Musical talent draws on absolutely everything that you've got, and by talent I don't mean career success. That's something entirely different.

This is all rather hard to explain. But you recognize it if you're committed to doing it yourself, and if you can observe someone in action over a long time.

I went to school with a young woman who had absolute pitch and eidetic memory, and had normal intelligence, but who was completely unable to play rock or jazz, to improvise, or to master all the schemas (patterns, scales, chords, riffs, etc.) and even to understand the necessary concepts. (Last I heard she worked for NASA. She'd drink and dial.)

I'm saying that the best players are both well-trained and have exceptional intelligence in a lot of areas. It's simply too hard to do that without relatively complete neural hardware.

This is subtle stuff, very hard to prove. Doesn't mean that someone with a hemisphere removed actually reaches the same level that they would have with two hemispheres.

Perhaps there are studies. I'd be curious.

[angrysoba]

Wouldn't you have to crack open your skull to do that? It sounds mighty dangerous to me. You'll never catch me drawing on my brain.

[TimCallahan]

Originally Posted by Beerina

Good question. I always assumed people who were (naturally) left-handed had the functions of the brain halves swapped.

Apparently not. We have brains that are a bit of a mix. Not that it really makes that much of a difference.

[Quinn]

Originally Posted by calebprime

The genius jazz pianist Kenny Werner wrote a book called _Effortless Mastery_ that is both psychologically silly and involves much pure woo. But he makes some good points.

Sorry to derail, but I'd be interested in hearing more about that. I once asked about it on a music forum, but folks here might have more of the insight I'm looking for. Here's what I asked:

Originally Posted by me on another forum

I've heard much about this book over the years, and have found what I've heard to be roughly equal parts intriguing and off-putting. So for those who are into it, a question: do you think it would be valuable to a musician who...

• Is already comfortable with his abilities and limitations, doesn't suffer from insecurity or performance anxiety, and can perform for/with pretty much anyone without getting hung up about it?
• Knows how to achieve improvement through practice, is able to do so when he puts his mind to it, and understands that the reason he doesn't do it more is down to simple laziness?
• Is a hard-nosed skeptic and literalist who views music analytically; doesn't believe in such things as magic, spirituality, a higher self, higher consciousness, etc.; is decidedly suspicious about the value of meditation and affirmations; generally finds everything he has ever heard about the tenets and practices of Zen to be highly annoying; and is instantly and irrevocably put off by anything that smacks of new age woo-woo?

If there's anyone here who would say they roughly match that description, but have still found value in the book, I'd be very interested in hearing from them. And I'd be equally interested in hearing from those whose reaction is, "If that describes you, then no, you probably wouldn't get anything from the book, you soulless, curmudgeonly, cynical, joyless, pitiable sourpuss."

[calebprime]

I'd buy it just for his casual insights into Coltrane's Giant Steps solo. But then, I collect books.

Get the book from a library and skim it, maybe. Photocopy the few pages where he's talking about music, not psychology.

Your attitude is pretty similar to mine, but I envy your equanimity and calm.

Kenny is a bonafide genius, with the stink of enlightment, whose insight into jazz is best expressed by his playing. He really knows what he's talking about when it comes to jazz. As a composer, he's an extremely talented relative beginner who works more or less intuitively.

My wife used to take care of his dog, Sacajawea, an excellent old German Shepherd. I'm looking at a pic of Sacajawea as I post. I've talked to Kenny in person a couple of times. Kenny experienced a great grief when his kid died in a car crash.

His mystical we-are-all-one beliefs don't prevent him from falling musically into the same attitudes and practices as any jazz player. It just means that he'd deny that what he does is hard. (That It's not hard, it's not easy b.s. ) No actually it's hard.

His tunes often have four or more complicated changes per bar, and are played according to the usual head, leader-solo, next-guy solo thing. And most of the time, he plays fast lines, like anyone else. What I'm saying is that despite his enlightenment, his actual practice is just as macho/butch as any hard bop player. And he's as competitive as the next guy, maybe even more so.

YMMV. I don't really believe that everyone can be a genius, even with long effortless effort.

His insights may only be valid for someone of his abilities, and his blissfulness may only be possible for someone of his innate temperament.

He's much less of an asshat than Dave Liebman. However, Dave Liebman's book about chromatic harmony+ (_A Chromatic Approach to Jazz Harmony and Melody_) is chock full of good nuggets.

E.M. doesn't have any nuts-and-bolts musical info, any notation. Too bad.

At NEC, the students used to make fun of his book, especially the exercises on CD that involved things like chanting "I am a Master" or some such.

Ok, dug it out of the stacks.

pg. 142 " ...when I touch the piano, I go into a space where everything is beautiful. There is no sin, no wrong notes, all there is is love and joy..."

Or not.

Even massive amounts of positive thinking, exercise, or medications -- legal or um "medicinal" -- will never get me where Kenny is.

Peter Serkin once said something to the effect that he was a tense person, and had to learn to play with tension. I've realized the same thing.

Fear is my friend, tension is my constant companion. I yam what I yam.

As today wears on, I'll skim and post some more nuggets, especially some of the good ones.

[pakeha]

^ Interesting insights into playing the banjo.
I'm looking forward to reading more from you!

[calebprime]

Hey Quinn,

I'll post excerpts from Effortless Mastery in a new thread in Forum Community, so you can check it out.

The reason for doing it in FC is the relatively low profile -- can't be Googled immediately.

Obviously I have enormous respect for Kenny, but he and I are not One, but Two.

[RedIbis]

Originally Posted by aargh57

Hi,

I just bought a banjo course that references this book as a way to help develop(maybe not the best word to describe it) the right side of the brain. Looking at Amazon, it seems a bit woo to me (there's a new version out now). Anyway, does anyone have any insight into this? Here's a link to the book on amazon: http://www.amazon.com/The-Drawing-Ri...cm_rdp_product


Thanks

I'm curious what banjo method you're looking at. I've been working on the 5 string banjer for about 2 yrs. I take lessons regularly and have used Earl Scruggs book, as well as others. Haven't seen the reference you mention.

As for Drawing, I echo what some others have said. I can't speak to the Right/Left theories, but the method and instruction is excellent. Not necessarily uncharterd territory, but a very useful book.

[RedIbis]

Originally Posted by calebprime

Ok, now that I've got you and Bikewer right here on the same page:

List, if you will, 2 recordings of the purest, most locked-in, pickinest banjo playing. I'll request at the library, because my Internetz won't play music. I want to take a CD into my man-cave, for careful study.

Recording made after 1950, and stereo.

Heavy on the fast picking, very light on the commercial appeal.

I like Bela Fleck fine, but I was thinking more like Earl Scruggs.

Just need some tips.

I got The Essential Earl Scruggs from my public library. That should give you at least an introduction of his masterful and creative playing. It covers his early work with Bill Monroe and Lester Flatt. His later stuff branches out a bit from traditional bluegrass.

Too bad about your computer. There's a lot of clips of Earl's playing on youtube, and you get a great look at how effortless his playing was. He looks like a happy buddha with that instrument in his hands.

[aargh57]

Originally Posted by RedIbis

I'm curious what banjo method you're looking at. I've been working on the 5 string banjer for about 2 yrs. I take lessons regularly and have used Earl Scruggs book, as well as others. Haven't seen the reference you mention.

As for Drawing, I echo what some others have said. I can't speak to the Right/Left theories, but the method and instruction is excellent. Not necessarily uncharterd territory, but a very useful book.

The course is Banjo II by Harold Streeter. Just got it before the weekend so don't really want to comment about how good it is yet but it had really good reviews at banjohangout.org(if you haven't found that site I highly recommend it). Here's Streeter's link to the course http://lewalt.com/banjo_course.html. I got mine atthe hangout classifieds for $165 including shipping and I think there's another one on there still for about $190 or something. It's not a beginners course and it's a bit heavy on theory but I think with 2 years playing you could use it(plus it probably won't spoil if you decide it's over your head for now). Price is high but you get 30 lessons on CD to go with the book. A bit dated, he tells you to flip over the tape to listen to side 2.

[aargh57]

Originally Posted by calebprime

Ok, now that I've got you and Bikewer right here on the same page:

List, if you will, 2 recordings of the purest, most locked-in, pickinest banjo playing. I'll request at the library, because my Internetz won't play music. I want to take a CD into my man-cave, for careful study.

Recording made after 1950, and stereo.

Heavy on the fast picking, very light on the commercial appeal.

I like Bela Fleck fine, but I was thinking more like Earl Scruggs.

Just need some tips.

I'm by no means an officionado but I really like Ralph Stanley. The Very Best of Ralph Stanley is one of my favorites and "Hard Times" is probably my favorite banjo instrumental. I think I'm pretty safe in saying you won't be accused of going commercial with him.

[Trish Randall]

calebprime says...[/quote]

All true, but...

As the article linked above noted, we need a kind of shorthand to describe something vague like "creativity" that actually involves many parts of the brain, and many different kinds of tasks.

The idea in the book in question, iirc, was to replace schemas (such as stick-figures) with something like perception of literal visual images. Instead of drawing an abstract idea of a face with a schema that involves a circle, two eyes, a nose, a mouth, etc., to draw what actually presents itself to view. This is an entirely different process, and produces different results.
[/quote]

When I studied drawing, the technique my drawing teacher used to achieve this purpose was to copy upside photos. It worked very well, and was also "woo"-free.

The documentary I was recalling when writing my post about people with single brain hemispheres, as I recall (having seen it several years ago) included at least one person who was a very good piano player. Another was a girl who was only discovered in her 20s to have only one hemisphere, which was a surprise to the girl & the people who knew her as she was intelligent & functioned normally.

[calebprime]

Originally Posted by Trish Randall

calebprime says...

All true, but...

As the article linked above noted, we need a kind of shorthand to describe something vague like "creativity" that actually involves many parts of the brain, and many different kinds of tasks.

The idea in the book in question, iirc, was to replace schemas (such as stick-figures) with something like perception of literal visual images. Instead of drawing an abstract idea of a face with a schema that involves a circle, two eyes, a nose, a mouth, etc., to draw what actually presents itself to view. This is an entirely different process, and produces different results.
[/quote]

When I studied drawing, the technique my drawing teacher used to achieve this purpose was to copy upside photos. It worked very well, and was also "woo"-free.

The documentary I was recalling when writing my post about people with single brain hemispheres, as I recall (having seen it several years ago) included at least one person who was a very good piano player. Another was a girl who was only discovered in her 20s to have only one hemisphere, which was a surprise to the girl & the people who knew her as she was intelligent & functioned normally.[/quote]


================quote funtions got munched===========

Yep. I also heard about someone who'd grown up with such enlarged ventricles that his cortex and the rest of his brain were just a thin sheet in a nearly hollow skull. He was a mid-level British bureaucrat.

Neuroplasticity is an amazing thing.

[calebprime]

Originally Posted by RedIbis

I got The Essential Earl Scruggs from my public library. That should give you at least an introduction of his masterful and creative playing. It covers his early work with Bill Monroe and Lester Flatt. His later stuff branches out a bit from traditional bluegrass.

Too bad about your computer. There's a lot of clips of Earl's playing on youtube, and you get a great look at how effortless his playing was. He looks like a happy buddha with that instrument in his hands.

Originally Posted by aargh57

I'm by no means an officionado but I really like Ralph Stanley. The Very Best of Ralph Stanley is one of my favorites and "Hard Times" is probably my favorite banjo instrumental. I think I'm pretty safe in saying you won't be accused of going commercial with him.

Thank you, sirs. Goin' to the library today.

The computer in my man-cave, like the ones the FBI use, is not linked to the Interwebz. And YouTube is too lofi overall, and too visual. I just want to listen. I kid, slightly.

Now, where's a cop when you need one?

[Rrose Selavy]

Originally Posted by Trish Randall

When I studied drawing, the technique my drawing teacher used to achieve this purpose was to copy upside photos. It worked very well, and was also "woo"-free.

Have you actually read the Edwards book? That is one of the introductory exercises.

-

[RedIbis]

Originally Posted by aargh57

The course is Banjo II by Harold Streeter. Just got it before the weekend so don't really want to comment about how good it is yet but it had really good reviews at banjohangout.org(if you haven't found that site I highly recommend it). Here's Streeter's link to the course http://lewalt.com/banjo_course.html. I got mine atthe hangout classifieds for $165 including shipping and I think there's another one on there still for about $190 or something. It's not a beginners course and it's a bit heavy on theory but I think with 2 years playing you could use it(plus it probably won't spoil if you decide it's over your head for now). Price is high but you get 30 lessons on CD to go with the book. A bit dated, he tells you to flip over the tape to listen to side 2.

Wow, cool. Sounds like a good program. I do know BHO and find the site invaluable. I've playing music most of my life and picked up the banjo, like I said, about two yrs ago. I plunked around, learned a few tunes from tab, etc, but nothing helped as much as taking private lessons. The woman who teaches is not a great banjo player who happens to give lessons, she's a great banjo teacher who is also a great player, and I"ve learned there's a huge difference.

She has a method, I follow it, and my playing has improved dramatically. Great recommendation on Ralph Stanley. I love his stuff. He's not as dense as Earl, but his voice and playing are very earthy and effective.

I'd also recommend Old Crow Medicine Show.

[calebprime]

Originally Posted by RedIbis

.... Old Crow Medicine Show.

added to my list for today...

[Trish Randall]

Rrose Selavy, I haven't read the Edwards book.

I took 2 drawing classes about 8 years ago, haven't read any how-to art books cover-to-cover. People started asking if they could buy this or that piece, and now, 8 years later, I'm selling enough art I had to file a 1099 for it, so I'm no expert. I just do it for the fun & the money.

[Mark6]

Unless you dry it out, brain makes a piss-poor canvas no matter which side you use. And even dried out, I cannot see brain being suitable for more than niche applications in art.