"Live Challenge Event"

wardenclyffe · 20th June 2012, 01:48 PM

This is the thread in which I encourage wild speculation about what the "Live Challenge Event" will be this year at TAM. Last year, if I recall, was pretty much a bust.

Maybe this year, they will get one of the people they had on the ABC Primetime show.

Any ideas? Have they announced anything? Any wild guesses?

Ward

Calculon · 3rd July 2012, 06:39 PM

*crickets*

AdMan · 3rd July 2012, 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by Calculon

*crickets*

It was like this last year as well, which is why I decided to skip it and go to the Red Rocks instead.

Don't think I missed much. I may stay this time out of curiosity. Are there any rumors of an actual test being conducted? Sounds like that is very hard to pull off, and when they do get someone, like for TAM 8, it's a pretty tedious affair.

Calculon · 3rd July 2012, 07:42 PM

I haven't heard anything.

I am planning on going to this instead (as I am there Sunday night regardless)
http://www.meetup.com/CosmoQuest/events/69190772/

wardenclyffe · 9th July 2012, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by AdMan

It was like this last year as well, which is why I decided to skip it and go to the Red Rocks instead.

Don't think I missed much. I may stay this time out of curiosity. Are there any rumors of an actual test being conducted? Sounds like that is very hard to pull off, and when they do get someone, like for TAM 8, it's a pretty tedious affair.

Tedious, it might be, but it was a packed house and an opportunity for all those people to see a test live and in person.

Since the last TAM, the IIG has tested at least three applicants for their $50K Challenge and JREF tested a whole slew of people on the Primetime show on ABC.

That's a lot of potential challengers. JREF was happy to have a "demonstration" with Anita Ikonen months after she failed the IIG test, so we know they will accept the IIG's sloppy seconds. And if they can't get someone out of that ABC show, then I don't know what to think.

Ward

The Central Scrutinizer · 9th July 2012, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by AdMan

It was like this last year as well, which is why I decided to skip it and go to the Red Rocks instead.

Don't think I missed much. I may stay this time out of curiosity. Are there any rumors of an actual test being conducted? Sounds like that is very hard to pull off, and when they do get someone, like for TAM 8, it's a pretty tedious affair.

I went two years ago when they tested that crazy lady, Connie <something>. It was like watching paint dry. No more boring than watching a chess match, but at least in a chess match, you don't know how it will end ahead of time.

I'll stay in the Del Mar or go to Dr. Nicole's Cosmo meetup. Should be some hot chicks there, it's Cosmo after all.

wardenclyffe · 9th July 2012, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

I went two years ago when they tested that crazy lady, Connie <something>. It was like watching paint dry. No more boring than watching a chess match, but at least in a chess match, you don't know how it will end ahead of time.

I'll stay in the Del Mar or go to Dr. Nicole's Cosmo meetup. Should be some hot chicks there, it's Cosmo after all.

I think that was three years ago. Again, it might be tedious, but there aren't many chances to see a live challenge in person, tedious or not.

Ward

The Central Scrutinizer · 9th July 2012, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by wardenclyffe

I think that was three years ago. Again, it might be tedious, but there aren't many chances to see a live challenge in person, tedious or not.

Ward

My one chance will last me a lifetime.

wardenclyffe · 10th July 2012, 10:05 AM

Since this thread is for wild speculation and rumor mongering, I will spread a rumor that I just heard:

Bryan & Baxter of Warning Radio and Rocky Mountain Paranormal Research Society will be filling the slot with.....something. No one seems to know if they actually have an applicant or what. Again, this is rumor, but I consider the source to be reliable-ish.

If you don't know who they are, here's who they are: http://www.warningradio.info/Warning/About_Us.html

Please feel free to speculate,

Ward

rjh01 · 10th July 2012, 02:09 PM

Just seen this thread Sylvia Browne in Vegas during TAM. Maybe SB will be doing a demonstration of her amazing powers during TAM. Shock the attendees by showing that she is the real thing.

wardenclyffe · 10th July 2012, 02:27 PM

She'd shock the attendees by just showing up.

Ward

phyz · 15th July 2012, 10:57 AM

Any updates? Live applicant or slot-fill?

AdMan · 15th July 2012, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by phyz

Any updates? Live applicant or slot-fill?

Randi is on a panel as I write this and just mentioned that "it's a little iffy" if an actual challenge test will take place, but apparently they are still trying to make it happen. I haven't heard anything more.

AdMan · 15th July 2012, 08:39 PM

I'm at the Penn & Teller show and not at the MDC event, but the claim of the guy being tested (Andrew Needles) is that he can tell his "energy/power"-type bracelet from a placebo, presumably double-blind and greater than just by chance.

http://t.co/0USybSmI

wardenclyffe · 15th July 2012, 10:29 PM

So, what happened? Was anyone there?

I'm on pins and (Andrew) needles,
Ward

RemieV · 15th July 2012, 11:09 PM

https://twitter.com/RichOrman/status...714370/photo/1

BlackLyon · 16th July 2012, 12:49 AM

Originally Posted by AdMan

I'm at the Penn & Teller show and not at the MDC event, but the claim of the guy being tested (Andrew Needles) is that he can tell his "energy/power"-type bracelet from a placebo, presumably double-blind and greater than just by chance.

http://t.co/0USybSmI

Help me out with this one. How would this be a paranormal claim? Even if could tell the difference, wouldn't that just mean the bracelet actually worked?

RemieV · 16th July 2012, 12:53 AM

Originally Posted by BlackLyon

Help me out with this one. How would this be a paranormal claim? Even if could tell the difference, wouldn't that just mean the bracelet actually worked?

The fact that there is zero logical reason why it SHOULD work would make its working paranormal. Whether or not a claim is paranormal is determined at the time at which the application is received. If a claim is determined to be paranormal at that stage, it will remain paranormal for the duration of the negotiations/testing, even if later it is found that there is a scientific reason for the results.

wardenclyffe · 16th July 2012, 01:44 AM

OK, so was this a preliminary test for the MDC, like with Connie Sonne, or was it a "demonstration," like with Anita Ikonen?

And should I have heard of Andrew Needles? Does he have a media presence or academic affidavits?

Ward

BlackLyon · 16th July 2012, 01:52 AM

Originally Posted by RemieV

The fact that there is zero logical reason why it SHOULD work would make its working paranormal. Whether or not a claim is paranormal is determined at the time at which the application is received. If a claim is determined to be paranormal at that stage, it will remain paranormal for the duration of the negotiations/testing, even if later it is found that there is a scientific reason for the results.

Thanks for trying to clear it up for me Remmie! I was still a little confused about how this would be a paranormal claim, but then I went and read the JREF Twitter feed.

Andrew Needles designed this particular bracelet! Now I understand how this would be accepted as a claim. Here I was thinking he was claiming that he could tell the "real" from "false" on any of these types of woo bracelets, such as the Power Bracelet, for example.

RemieV · 16th July 2012, 02:10 AM

Originally Posted by BlackLyon

Thanks for trying to clear it up for me Remmie! I was still a little confused about how this would be a paranormal claim, but then I went and read the JREF Twitter feed.

Andrew Needles designed this particular bracelet! Now I understand how this would be accepted as a claim. Here I was thinking he was claiming that he could tell the "real" from "false" on any of these types of woo bracelets, such as the Power Bracelet, for example.

Actually, I'm not sure if it's still the case, but when I was the Challenge Coordinator, you didn't have to be the designer of the product in order to make the claim that you could tell one thing from another. For instance, there was a speaker cable challenge - some super expensive speaker cables that were supposed to make sound oh so very awesome and whatnot. And Randi offered the Challenge to anyone who could hear the difference between the super expensive cables and regular ones.

BlackLyon · 16th July 2012, 02:15 AM

Originally Posted by wardenclyffe

OK, so was this a preliminary test for the MDC, like with Connie Sonne, or was it a "demonstration," like with Anita Ikonen?

And should I have heard of Andrew Needles? Does he have a media presence or academic affidavits?

I've been Googling for information. If the information I found is correct, Mr. Needles created a line wristbands, bracelets and pendents under the brand name Dynactiv SR. In other words, he trademarked his own version of the woo "balance bracelet" that were all the rage for a short while last year.

http://vimeo.com/37786570

The above link is Mr. Needles Vimeo page. It contains two videos of him testing out his bracelets on "skeptics" with positive results...

There is also a main product website and Facebook page for the product, but since I'm not sure if posting links to those would be against the forum rules...Just do a Google search for "Dynativ SR."

Paul2 · 16th July 2012, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by wardenclyffe

OK, so was this a preliminary test for the MDC, like with Connie Sonne, or was it a "demonstration," like with Anita Ikonen?

And should I have heard of Andrew Needles? Does he have a media presence or academic affidavits?

Ward

I was there, and my understanding/memory is that it was a preliminary test.

It was pretty awesome to witness an actual MDC test, even as it was a little boring to hear Banacheck intone, again and again, "Put one box on top of the other. Put the boxes in the bag. Shake the bag. . . ."

The other highlight was Andrew Needles' random placement of the word "placebo" in his explanations for why failing the MDC preliminary didn't dissuade him for believing in his product.

AdMan · 16th July 2012, 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by Paul2

The other highlight was Andrew Needles' random placement of the word "placebo" in his explanations for why failing the MDC preliminary didn't dissuade him for believing in his product.

This is interesting. What explanation did he give for his failure or why he continued to believe?

wardenclyffe · 16th July 2012, 11:22 PM

I look forward to the youtube video.

Ward

Paul2 · 17th July 2012, 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by AdMan

This is interesting. What explanation did he give for his failure or why he continued to believe?

Immediately after the event it was impossible for me and my friends to discuss his explanation because it was so incoherent. He scattered the word "placebo" throughout his explanation so liberally and so randomly that it was impossible to make sense of what he was trying to say. Maybe there was some meaning there, but it was hidden too well behind ambiguous or unclear uses of the word "placebo." At least I and my friends couldn't follow him, maybe someone else was able to.

Sjw · 17th July 2012, 11:15 AM

I was at the event and still can't decide if the guy is a scam artist or a believer.

happyskeptic · 18th July 2012, 11:27 AM

Personally, I found the 2012 challenge fascinating. I agree that they do not provide entertainment in the traditional sense however it is a perfect time to witness cognitive dissidence. After be unsuccessful, the applicant answered questions on what he believed happened and had many excuses. Conformation bias has set in.

This is something in which I have had a great interest. When a person’s belief system is shaken and broken, something must fill the void. How can we as educating skeptics guide and influence that person towards a more positive direction so they need not fall into the excuse track?

Tim Harrod · 18th July 2012, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by happyskeptic

When a person’s belief system is shaken and broken, something must fill the void. How can we as educating skeptics guide and influence that person towards a more positive direction so they need not fall into the excuse track?

I don't know that we can. That's a very personal battle to fight, coming down to deciding that the truth is more important. And in that moment when they've not only missed out on the biggest payday of their life, but have the stigma of failure implied at the very least, I would suggest the most humane thing to do is let them travel through what they're feeling, don't judge, and thank them for stepping up to the test unlike so many others. Only they can fix their own magical thinking and commitment issues with reality.

Paul2 · 18th July 2012, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by Tim Harrod

I don't know that we can. That's a very personal battle to fight, coming down to deciding that the truth is more important. And in that moment when they've not only missed out on the biggest payday of their life, but have the stigma of failure implied at the very least, I would suggest the most humane thing to do is let them travel through what they're feeling, don't judge, and thank them for stepping up to the test unlike so many others. Only they can fix their own magical thinking and commitment issues with reality.

I agree. That's why I was a little uncomfortable when Banachek begin to lightly grill (maybe @ 325o Farenh.) the claimant. Right then, right after he whiffed, is not the time to have an extended conversation about why he whiffed, in front of hundreds of people. Single questions from Banachek or the audience are perfectly fine, but when follow-up questions have the goal of finding a "Gotcha," as I think a few of Banachek's did (don't ask me for a citation), then I think that went too far, as I felt the situation in the room that night.

I absolutely respect Banachek, who no doubt was influenced by Randi, for admonishing the audience to respect the claimant, and his feelings. He just went a touch too far in the wrong direction with a few pointed questions.

Ah, fuggeddaboudit. Banachek was within the margin of error.

Czarcasm · 19th July 2012, 05:41 AM

I disagree. That is exactly the right time to get a straight and unrehearsed answer to those questions-before the claimant has time to second guess and think up excuses.

SkepticScott · 19th July 2012, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by Paul2

... it was a little boring to hear Banacheck intone, again and again, "Put one box on top of the other. Put the boxes in the bag. Shake the bag. . . ."

Imagine how Banachek felt! He couldn't let his attention wander, or let himself get bored and risk deviating from the procedure.

Paul2 · 19th July 2012, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by SkepticScott

Imagine how Banachek felt! He couldn't let his attention wander, or let himself get bored and risk deviating from the procedure.

It's lonely at the top.

When the going gets boring, the pros turn [. . .].

[/cliches]

Seriously, I'm sure it was incredibly boring for Banacheck, and he, like I would have not traded the experience for anything.

nmillerche · 19th July 2012, 05:23 PM

Test Subject #8 here. Yes, it might have seemed a bit repetitive at times, but as has been pointed out earlier in the thread, it was necessary. Through this experience I gained a deeper appreciation for the level of rigor applied to ensure that the protocol is fair to both parties.

After meeting and speaking with Andrew, who was tremendously friendly and confident, I'm convinced he's honestly a believer. The Q&A immediately after the test was instructive, as it provided fresh insights into how the claimant viewed the results.

Originally Posted by Paul2

Seriously, I'm sure it was incredibly boring for Banacheck, and he, like I would have not traded the experience for anything.

Well said, and ditto.

xtifr · 20th July 2012, 12:31 AM

So let me get this straight. His excuse for not being able to detect the effects of his magic wristband is that the placebo performed just as well!? And he doesn't think that that's basically the definition of "does not work as advertised"?

Paul2 · 20th July 2012, 06:17 AM

Originally Posted by xtifr

So let me get this straight. His excuse for not being able to detect the effects of his magic wristband is that the placebo performed just as well!? And he doesn't think that that's basically the definition of "does not work as advertised"?

Pretty much, it seems.

halohms · 20th July 2012, 09:24 AM

Just got back home today. I went to the outlet mall north of the South Point Casino the next day after the test and in there was one kiosk selling a balance band and people were buying it (paying money). I informed a purchaser that it was all a scam and that they need to check the web for the videos and proof - the buyer basically ignored me having been convinced by the demonstration the "salesman" gave her........ People are so gullible.

20th June 2012, 01:48 PM	#1
wardenclyffe Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,483	"Live Challenge Event" This is the thread in which I encourage wild speculation about what the "Live Challenge Event" will be this year at TAM. Last year, if I recall, was pretty much a bust. Maybe this year, they will get one of the people they had on the ABC Primetime show. Any ideas? Have they announced anything? Any wild guesses? Ward
	__________________ ~~Na eth'er aa, ammre' en ank'aar'eith, d'emner'aa-, asd'reng'aather, em'n'err-aae...~ - Alenara Al'Kher'aat, aged 347

3rd July 2012, 06:39 PM	#2
Calculon Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Hollywood-ish Posts: 294	crickets
	__________________ “If God dwells inside us like some people say, I sure hope He likes enchiladas, because that's what He's getting” Jack Handy Robbie Thomas is a stupid conman

3rd July 2012, 06:44 PM	#3
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,163	Originally Posted by Calculon crickets It was like this last year as well, which is why I decided to skip it and go to the Red Rocks instead. Don't think I missed much. I may stay this time out of curiosity. Are there any rumors of an actual test being conducted? Sounds like that is very hard to pull off, and when they do get someone, like for TAM 8, it's a pretty tedious affair.
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,163

3rd July 2012, 07:42 PM	#4
Calculon Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Hollywood-ish Posts: 294	I haven't heard anything. I am planning on going to this instead (as I am there Sunday night regardless) http://www.meetup.com/CosmoQuest/events/69190772/
	__________________ “If God dwells inside us like some people say, I sure hope He likes enchiladas, because that's what He's getting” Jack Handy Robbie Thomas is a stupid conman

9th July 2012, 02:35 PM	#5
wardenclyffe Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,483	Originally Posted by AdMan It was like this last year as well, which is why I decided to skip it and go to the Red Rocks instead. Don't think I missed much. I may stay this time out of curiosity. Are there any rumors of an actual test being conducted? Sounds like that is very hard to pull off, and when they do get someone, like for TAM 8, it's a pretty tedious affair. Tedious, it might be, but it was a packed house and an opportunity for all those people to see a test live and in person. Since the last TAM, the IIG has tested at least three applicants for their $50K Challenge and JREF tested a whole slew of people on the Primetime show on ABC. That's a lot of potential challengers. JREF was happy to have a "demonstration" with Anita Ikonen months after she failed the IIG test, so we know they will accept the IIG's sloppy seconds. And if they can't get someone out of that ABC show, then I don't know what to think. Ward
	__________________ ~~Na eth'er aa, ammre' en ank'aar'eith, d'emner'aa-, asd'reng'aather, em'n'err-aae...~ - Alenara Al'Kher'aat, aged 347

9th July 2012, 03:58 PM	#6
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Pither Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,266	Originally Posted by AdMan It was like this last year as well, which is why I decided to skip it and go to the Red Rocks instead. Don't think I missed much. I may stay this time out of curiosity. Are there any rumors of an actual test being conducted? Sounds like that is very hard to pull off, and when they do get someone, like for TAM 8, it's a pretty tedious affair. I went two years ago when they tested that crazy lady, Connie <something>. It was like watching paint dry. No more boring than watching a chess match, but at least in a chess match, you don't know how it will end ahead of time. I'll stay in the Del Mar or go to Dr. Nicole's Cosmo meetup. Should be some hot chicks there, it's Cosmo after all.
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

9th July 2012, 04:11 PM	#7
wardenclyffe Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,483	Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer I went two years ago when they tested that crazy lady, Connie <something>. It was like watching paint dry. No more boring than watching a chess match, but at least in a chess match, you don't know how it will end ahead of time. I'll stay in the Del Mar or go to Dr. Nicole's Cosmo meetup. Should be some hot chicks there, it's Cosmo after all. I think that was three years ago. Again, it might be tedious, but there aren't many chances to see a live challenge in person, tedious or not. Ward
	__________________ ~~Na eth'er aa, ammre' en ank'aar'eith, d'emner'aa-, asd'reng'aather, em'n'err-aae...~ - Alenara Al'Kher'aat, aged 347

9th July 2012, 04:53 PM	#8
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Pither Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,266	Originally Posted by wardenclyffe I think that was three years ago. Again, it might be tedious, but there aren't many chances to see a live challenge in person, tedious or not. Ward My one chance will last me a lifetime.
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

10th July 2012, 10:05 AM	#9
wardenclyffe Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,483	Since this thread is for wild speculation and rumor mongering, I will spread a rumor that I just heard: Bryan & Baxter of Warning Radio and Rocky Mountain Paranormal Research Society will be filling the slot with.....something. No one seems to know if they actually have an applicant or what. Again, this is rumor, but I consider the source to be reliable-ish. If you don't know who they are, here's who they are: http://www.warningradio.info/Warning/About_Us.html Please feel free to speculate, Ward
	__________________ ~~Na eth'er aa, ammre' en ank'aar'eith, d'emner'aa-, asd'reng'aather, em'n'err-aae...~ - Alenara Al'Kher'aat, aged 347

10th July 2012, 02:09 PM	#10
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 17,172	Just seen this thread Sylvia Browne in Vegas during TAM. Maybe SB will be doing a demonstration of her amazing powers during TAM. Shock the attendees by showing that she is the real thing.
	__________________ dddffffpppqqqq Want to use your computer for something that will make society better? See this thread for details Folding@home

10th July 2012, 02:27 PM	#11
wardenclyffe Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,483	She'd shock the attendees by just showing up. Ward
	__________________ ~~Na eth'er aa, ammre' en ank'aar'eith, d'emner'aa-, asd'reng'aather, em'n'err-aae...~ - Alenara Al'Kher'aat, aged 347

15th July 2012, 10:57 AM	#12
phyz Muse Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 969	Any updates? Live applicant or slot-fill?
	__________________ Dean Baird Phyz Home Page - The Blog of Phyz - Images, Photographs, and Pix Only dead fish go with the flow.

15th July 2012, 03:18 PM	#13
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,163	Originally Posted by phyz Any updates? Live applicant or slot-fill? Randi is on a panel as I write this and just mentioned that "it's a little iffy" if an actual challenge test will take place, but apparently they are still trying to make it happen. I haven't heard anything more.
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,163	__________________ It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

15th July 2012, 08:39 PM	#14
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,163	I'm at the Penn & Teller show and not at the MDC event, but the claim of the guy being tested (Andrew Needles) is that he can tell his "energy/power"-type bracelet from a placebo, presumably double-blind and greater than just by chance. http://t.co/0USybSmI
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,163	__________________ It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan Last edited by AdMan; 15th July 2012 at 08:44 PM.

15th July 2012, 10:29 PM	#15
wardenclyffe Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,483	So, what happened? Was anyone there? I'm on pins and (Andrew) needles, Ward
	__________________ ~~Na eth'er aa, ammre' en ank'aar'eith, d'emner'aa-, asd'reng'aather, em'n'err-aae...~ - Alenara Al'Kher'aat, aged 347

15th July 2012, 11:09 PM	#16
RemieV Lostie, Pirate, Snape Lover Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 4,218	https://twitter.com/RichOrman/status...714370/photo/1
	__________________ Visit me at Unbridled Chaos. For funsies. There's Watson pix involved. Aime la vérité, mais pardonne à l'erreur.

16th July 2012, 12:49 AM	#17
BlackLyon Scholar Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 82	Originally Posted by AdMan I'm at the Penn & Teller show and not at the MDC event, but the claim of the guy being tested (Andrew Needles) is that he can tell his "energy/power"-type bracelet from a placebo, presumably double-blind and greater than just by chance. http://t.co/0USybSmI Help me out with this one. How would this be a paranormal claim? Even if could tell the difference, wouldn't that just mean the bracelet actually worked?
BlackLyon Scholar Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 82

16th July 2012, 12:53 AM	#18
RemieV Lostie, Pirate, Snape Lover Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 4,218	Originally Posted by BlackLyon Help me out with this one. How would this be a paranormal claim? Even if could tell the difference, wouldn't that just mean the bracelet actually worked? The fact that there is zero logical reason why it SHOULD work would make its working paranormal. Whether or not a claim is paranormal is determined at the time at which the application is received. If a claim is determined to be paranormal at that stage, it will remain paranormal for the duration of the negotiations/testing, even if later it is found that there is a scientific reason for the results.
	__________________ Visit me at Unbridled Chaos. For funsies. There's Watson pix involved. Aime la vérité, mais pardonne à l'erreur.

16th July 2012, 01:44 AM	#19
wardenclyffe Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,483	OK, so was this a preliminary test for the MDC, like with Connie Sonne, or was it a "demonstration," like with Anita Ikonen? And should I have heard of Andrew Needles? Does he have a media presence or academic affidavits? Ward
	__________________ ~~Na eth'er aa, ammre' en ank'aar'eith, d'emner'aa-, asd'reng'aather, em'n'err-aae...~ - Alenara Al'Kher'aat, aged 347

16th July 2012, 01:52 AM	#20
BlackLyon Scholar Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 82	Originally Posted by RemieV The fact that there is zero logical reason why it SHOULD work would make its working paranormal. Whether or not a claim is paranormal is determined at the time at which the application is received. If a claim is determined to be paranormal at that stage, it will remain paranormal for the duration of the negotiations/testing, even if later it is found that there is a scientific reason for the results. Thanks for trying to clear it up for me Remmie! I was still a little confused about how this would be a paranormal claim, but then I went and read the JREF Twitter feed. Andrew Needles designed this particular bracelet! Now I understand how this would be accepted as a claim. Here I was thinking he was claiming that he could tell the "real" from "false" on any of these types of woo bracelets, such as the Power Bracelet, for example.
BlackLyon Scholar Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 82

16th July 2012, 02:10 AM	#21
RemieV Lostie, Pirate, Snape Lover Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 4,218	Originally Posted by BlackLyon Thanks for trying to clear it up for me Remmie! I was still a little confused about how this would be a paranormal claim, but then I went and read the JREF Twitter feed. Andrew Needles designed this particular bracelet! Now I understand how this would be accepted as a claim. Here I was thinking he was claiming that he could tell the "real" from "false" on any of these types of woo bracelets, such as the Power Bracelet, for example. Actually, I'm not sure if it's still the case, but when I was the Challenge Coordinator, you didn't have to be the designer of the product in order to make the claim that you could tell one thing from another. For instance, there was a speaker cable challenge - some super expensive speaker cables that were supposed to make sound oh so very awesome and whatnot. And Randi offered the Challenge to anyone who could hear the difference between the super expensive cables and regular ones.
	__________________ Visit me at Unbridled Chaos. For funsies. There's Watson pix involved. Aime la vérité, mais pardonne à l'erreur.

16th July 2012, 02:15 AM	#22
BlackLyon Scholar Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 82	Originally Posted by wardenclyffe OK, so was this a preliminary test for the MDC, like with Connie Sonne, or was it a "demonstration," like with Anita Ikonen? And should I have heard of Andrew Needles? Does he have a media presence or academic affidavits? I've been Googling for information. If the information I found is correct, Mr. Needles created a line wristbands, bracelets and pendents under the brand name Dynactiv SR. In other words, he trademarked his own version of the woo "balance bracelet" that were all the rage for a short while last year. http://vimeo.com/37786570 The above link is Mr. Needles Vimeo page. It contains two videos of him testing out his bracelets on "skeptics" with positive results... There is also a main product website and Facebook page for the product, but since I'm not sure if posting links to those would be against the forum rules...Just do a Google search for "Dynativ SR."
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16th July 2012, 09:00 PM	#23
Paul2 Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,486	Originally Posted by wardenclyffe OK, so was this a preliminary test for the MDC, like with Connie Sonne, or was it a "demonstration," like with Anita Ikonen? And should I have heard of Andrew Needles? Does he have a media presence or academic affidavits? Ward I was there, and my understanding/memory is that it was a preliminary test. It was pretty awesome to witness an actual MDC test, even as it was a little boring to hear Banacheck intone, again and again, "Put one box on top of the other. Put the boxes in the bag. Shake the bag. . . ." The other highlight was Andrew Needles' random placement of the word "placebo" in his explanations for why failing the MDC preliminary didn't dissuade him for believing in his product.
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16th July 2012, 09:41 PM	#24
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,163	Originally Posted by Paul2 The other highlight was Andrew Needles' random placement of the word "placebo" in his explanations for why failing the MDC preliminary didn't dissuade him for believing in his product. This is interesting. What explanation did he give for his failure or why he continued to believe?
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,163	__________________ It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan Last edited by AdMan; 16th July 2012 at 09:44 PM.

16th July 2012, 11:22 PM	#25
wardenclyffe Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,483	I look forward to the youtube video. Ward
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17th July 2012, 07:04 AM	#26
Paul2 Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,486	Originally Posted by AdMan This is interesting. What explanation did he give for his failure or why he continued to believe? Immediately after the event it was impossible for me and my friends to discuss his explanation because it was so incoherent. He scattered the word "placebo" throughout his explanation so liberally and so randomly that it was impossible to make sense of what he was trying to say. Maybe there was some meaning there, but it was hidden too well behind ambiguous or unclear uses of the word "placebo." At least I and my friends couldn't follow him, maybe someone else was able to.
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17th July 2012, 11:15 AM	#27
Sjw New Blood Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 13	I was at the event and still can't decide if the guy is a scam artist or a believer.
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18th July 2012, 11:27 AM	#28
happyskeptic New Blood Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 9	TAM 2012 Live Challenge: A lesson in Cognitive Dissidence Personally, I found the 2012 challenge fascinating. I agree that they do not provide entertainment in the traditional sense however it is a perfect time to witness cognitive dissidence. After be unsuccessful, the applicant answered questions on what he believed happened and had many excuses. Conformation bias has set in. This is something in which I have had a great interest. When a person’s belief system is shaken and broken, something must fill the void. How can we as educating skeptics guide and influence that person towards a more positive direction so they need not fall into the excuse track?
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18th July 2012, 03:02 PM	#29
Tim Harrod Scholar Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 81	Originally Posted by happyskeptic When a person’s belief system is shaken and broken, something must fill the void. How can we as educating skeptics guide and influence that person towards a more positive direction so they need not fall into the excuse track? I don't know that we can. That's a very personal battle to fight, coming down to deciding that the truth is more important. And in that moment when they've not only missed out on the biggest payday of their life, but have the stigma of failure implied at the very least, I would suggest the most humane thing to do is let them travel through what they're feeling, don't judge, and thank them for stepping up to the test unlike so many others. Only they can fix their own magical thinking and commitment issues with reality.
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18th July 2012, 06:06 PM	#30
Paul2 Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,486	Originally Posted by Tim Harrod I don't know that we can. That's a very personal battle to fight, coming down to deciding that the truth is more important. And in that moment when they've not only missed out on the biggest payday of their life, but have the stigma of failure implied at the very least, I would suggest the most humane thing to do is let them travel through what they're feeling, don't judge, and thank them for stepping up to the test unlike so many others. Only they can fix their own magical thinking and commitment issues with reality. I agree. That's why I was a little uncomfortable when Banachek begin to lightly grill (maybe @ 325o Farenh.) the claimant. Right then, right after he whiffed, is not the time to have an extended conversation about why he whiffed, in front of hundreds of people. Single questions from Banachek or the audience are perfectly fine, but when follow-up questions have the goal of finding a "Gotcha," as I think a few of Banachek's did (don't ask me for a citation), then I think that went too far, as I felt the situation in the room that night. I absolutely respect Banachek, who no doubt was influenced by Randi, for admonishing the audience to respect the claimant, and his feelings. He just went a touch too far in the wrong direction with a few pointed questions. Ah, fuggeddaboudit. Banachek was within the margin of error.
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19th July 2012, 05:41 AM	#31
Czarcasm Muse Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 976	I disagree. That is exactly the right time to get a straight and unrehearsed answer to those questions-before the claimant has time to second guess and think up excuses.
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19th July 2012, 08:22 AM	#32
SkepticScott TAM Volunteer Guy Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: North of Boston, Massachusetts Posts: 2,885	Originally Posted by Paul2 ... it was a little boring to hear Banacheck intone, again and again, "Put one box on top of the other. Put the boxes in the bag. Shake the bag. . . ." Imagine how Banachek felt! He couldn't let his attention wander, or let himself get bored and risk deviating from the procedure.
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19th July 2012, 04:07 PM	#33
Paul2 Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,486	Originally Posted by SkepticScott Imagine how Banachek felt! He couldn't let his attention wander, or let himself get bored and risk deviating from the procedure. It's lonely at the top. When the going gets boring, the pros turn [. . .]. [/cliches] Seriously, I'm sure it was incredibly boring for Banacheck, and he, like I would have not traded the experience for anything.
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19th July 2012, 05:23 PM	#34
nmillerche New Blood Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 1	Test Subject #8 here. Yes, it might have seemed a bit repetitive at times, but as has been pointed out earlier in the thread, it was necessary. Through this experience I gained a deeper appreciation for the level of rigor applied to ensure that the protocol is fair to both parties. After meeting and speaking with Andrew, who was tremendously friendly and confident, I'm convinced he's honestly a believer. The Q&A immediately after the test was instructive, as it provided fresh insights into how the claimant viewed the results. Originally Posted by Paul2 Seriously, I'm sure it was incredibly boring for Banacheck, and he, like I would have not traded the experience for anything. Well said, and ditto.
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20th July 2012, 12:31 AM	#35
xtifr Muse Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Sol III Posts: 563	So let me get this straight. His excuse for not being able to detect the effects of his magic wristband is that the placebo performed just as well!? And he doesn't think that that's basically the definition of "does not work as advertised"?
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