Why the opposition to universal healthcare? - Page 24

Border Reiver · 31st July 2012, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Malcolm Kirkpatrick

They are net tax recipients.

But they still pay a portion of the salaries recieved for services rendered back to central revenue to fund tax supported programs. Ie. they are still paying for the common property by having the agreed salary package discounted by the standard amount for their particular tax bracket.

Quote:

It isn't. That's why welfare recipients over-use emergency services and wait until the 9-5 free clinic closes (the lines are shorter in the emergency room, which would just send them to the free clinic with their sniffles before 5 pm).

Do they use emergency for routine medical matters because they can't do anything else (ie. see any other sort of medical care because they can't afford to pay for one or cannot get there in time). Do you have any stats re emergency room usage that back up your claim?

[qoute]Procedures that NHS does not cover, waiting lists that drive people into fee-for-service private care.[/quote]

What procedures doesn't the NHS cover? Are they necessary procedures?(I ask this because procedures done for aesthetic reasons such as tattoo removal or say breast enlargement isn't covered).

Rolfe · 31st July 2012, 12:18 PM

Might be covered. Breast implants are covered for women who have had mastectomies. Tattoo removal may be covered if someone was given a disfiguring tattoo when they were a minor.

Rolfe.

Malcolm Kirkpatrick · 31st July 2012, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by Border Reiver

What procedures doesn't the NHS cover? Are they necessary procedures?(I ask this because procedures done for aesthetic reasons such as tattoo removal or say breast enlargement isn't covered).

We've been over this in earlier health care discussions. Google "NICE, NHS, QALY". NHS supports procedures for some patients but not others, depending on "quality-adjusted life-years".

funk de fino · 31st July 2012, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by Malcolm Kirkpatrick

Procedures that NHS does not cover, waiting lists that drive people into fee-for-service private care.

The waiting lists for athroscopic surgery in Aberdeen is longer on the privaate list than the NHS list. Go figure.

I got mine quicker on NHS and it was done by same consultant.

stokes234 · 31st July 2012, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by Malcolm Kirkpatrick

We've been over this in earlier health care discussions. Google "NICE, NHS, QALY". NHS supports procedures for some patients but not others, depending on "quality-adjusted life-years".

We have been over it, but that doesn't mean you won the argument. You were only able to show that the NHS won't spend extortionate amounts of money on people who have terminal illnesses in order to extend their life by only a few months. And yet, in point 1 of this post you clearly show that you're ok with some level of triage when it comes to determining how much money you can plausibly spend to save someones life, and UHC systems can still allow people to go outside of this system to buy private care to extend the lives of people who are terminally ill and need very expensive treatment for a short extension.

Border Reiver · 31st July 2012, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by Malcolm Kirkpatrick

We've been over this in earlier health care discussions. Google "NICE, NHS, QALY". NHS supports procedures for some patients but not others, depending on "quality-adjusted life-years".

All that site tells us is that the cost of new treatments will be measured against side effects and benefits.

Nothing about what would be allowed or not.

thaiboxerken · 31st July 2012, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by Border Reiver

All that site tells us is that the cost of new treatments will be measured against side effects and benefits.

Nothing about what would be allowed or not.

you don't understand, private insurance companies never tell patients what will or won't be covered.

Malcolm Kirkpatrick · 31st July 2012, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by Border Reiver

All that site tells us is that the cost of new treatments will be measured against side effects and benefits.

Nothing about what would be allowed or not.

Not "new". NHS will not support standard treatments if "benefits" do not justify the cost. Everybody weighs costs and benefits. Nothing wrong with that, in abstract. The problem for free marketeers is the aggregation of resources ("third party", "free rider", "moral hazard" issues) and aggregation of decisionmaking where "equal protection" considerations will outweigh extremely personal variations in values and material facts.

Malcolm Kirkpatrick · 31st July 2012, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by stokes234

We have been over it, but that doesn't mean you won the argument.¹ You were only able to show that the NHS won't spend extortionate² amounts of money on people who have terminal illnesses in order to extend their life by only a few months. And yet, in point 1 of this post you clearly show that you're ok with some level of triage when it comes to determining how much money you can plausibly spend to save someones life, and UHC systems can still allow people to go outside of this system to buy private care to extend the lives of people who are terminally ill and need very expensive treatment for a short extension.³

1. Some people still insist that they can trisect any angle with a compass annd straightedge. I haven't won that argument, either. Come to think of it, the Catholic Church and the Flat Earth society still exist.
2. You mean "exorbitant", right? All taxes are "extortion" (NTTAWWT).
3. We agree, here.

stokes234 · 31st July 2012, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by Malcolm Kirkpatrick

1. Some people still insist that they can trisect any angle with a compass annd straightedge. I haven't won that argument, either. Come to think of it, the Catholic Church and the Flat Earth society still exist.

The general scientific consensus has moved, though. In the case of universal healthcare there isn't really a scientific consensus to be had, but the evidence there is that has appeared in this thread does not support your case.

Originally Posted by Malcolm Kirkpatrick

2. You mean "exorbitant", right? All taxes are "extortion" (NTTAWWT).

Sorry, I keep forgetting i'm going by the same dictionaries as 99% of english speakers, and you're going by the Free Market Handbook. To basically every english speaker in the world, "extortionate" means "excessive".
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/extortionate
http://oxforddictionaries.com/defini...h/extortionate
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/extortionate
etc.

Originally Posted by Malcolm Kirkpatrick

3. We agree, here.

I was stating a fact, not giving an opinion.

If you genuinely believe that Free Rider, Tragedy of the Commons stuff, show how it has negatively affected Western UHC systems to the point where the problems outweigh the far superior value. Or do you prefer theory to real world evidence?

Howie Felterbush · 31st July 2012, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

You reminded me. I'm going on holiday next month (to Greece as it happens, I hear there are some great bargains....) and I have a European Healthcare Entitlement card which allows me to claim healthcare services while I'm there on the same terms as a Greek citizen.

However, I had a nasty urinary tract infection in May for which I needed antibiotics. I've had such infections recurrently, though infrequently. I must remember to telephone my doctor and ask for a just-in-case prescription for a course of antibiotics to take with me, to save any inconvenience of having to chase up the Greek healthcare system while I'm there.

He'll just send the prescription to the village pharmacy for me to pick up after work. No hassle, no charge. It's service like this that makes me happy to pay my (pretty reasonable) taxes.

Rolfe.

You have to go to a pharmacy to pick up your prescription?

How barbaric. Where do you live, Cavemanistan? I get mine mailed to me.

Border Reiver · 31st July 2012, 03:13 PM

Taxes are your "user fees" for living in society.

Chris RN · 31st July 2012, 04:15 PM

Well, starting tomorrow the ladies get better health care coverage.. I'm getting a pap smear to celebrate.

magellan · 31st July 2012, 10:55 PM

Originally Posted by Malcolm Kirkpatrick

Not "new". NHS will not support standard ("third party", "free rider", "moral hazard" issues)

That's one issue.
Real issues the free market has with health care:
Barriers of entry (Quackery)
Substitutes
Consumer Information (When I go to a doctor he tells me what I want, not I him)
Contracting (customer may be unconcious, in pain, fear of death and unable to enter a contract)
Price inelasticity of demand (What's the free market price for a mugging?)
Opportunity costs (2 million for an artificial coma? Why didn't that guy in Aurora shop around for a better deal?)

funk de fino · 1st August 2012, 04:50 AM

I note Malcolm ignored my experience with longer waiting time for private provided surgery?

You'd amost think that there was nothing that would ever change his mind on this subject and he has to ignore it when something jolts that certainty.

ETA - also not just mine, but a close colleague had exactly the same situation. He was seen by NHS and it was a shorter waiting time.

31st July 2012, 11:46 AM	#921
Border Reiver Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Ottawa, ON Posts: 2,187	Originally Posted by Malcolm Kirkpatrick They are net tax recipients. But they still pay a portion of the salaries recieved for services rendered back to central revenue to fund tax supported programs. Ie. they are still paying for the common property by having the agreed salary package discounted by the standard amount for their particular tax bracket. Quote: It isn't. That's why welfare recipients over-use emergency services and wait until the 9-5 free clinic closes (the lines are shorter in the emergency room, which would just send them to the free clinic with their sniffles before 5 pm). Do they use emergency for routine medical matters because they can't do anything else (ie. see any other sort of medical care because they can't afford to pay for one or cannot get there in time). Do you have any stats re emergency room usage that back up your claim? [qoute]Procedures that NHS does not cover, waiting lists that drive people into fee-for-service private care.[/quote] What procedures doesn't the NHS cover? Are they necessary procedures?(I ask this because procedures done for aesthetic reasons such as tattoo removal or say breast enlargement isn't covered).
	__________________ Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks?

31st July 2012, 12:18 PM	#922
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,340	Might be covered. Breast implants are covered for women who have had mastectomies. Tattoo removal may be covered if someone was given a disfiguring tattoo when they were a minor. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

31st July 2012, 02:16 PM	#924
funk de fino Dreaming of unicorns Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Alba Posts: 10,795	Originally Posted by Malcolm Kirkpatrick Procedures that NHS does not cover, waiting lists that drive people into fee-for-service private care. The waiting lists for athroscopic surgery in Aberdeen is longer on the privaate list than the NHS list. Go figure. I got mine quicker on NHS and it was done by same consultant.
	__________________ Stundie - Avoided like the plaque, its a scottish turn of phrase. Christopher 7 - There is no need to contact them for conformation. That is just a denial tactic

31st July 2012, 02:26 PM	#925
stokes234 Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: UK Posts: 2,295	Originally Posted by Malcolm Kirkpatrick We've been over this in earlier health care discussions. Google "NICE, NHS, QALY". NHS supports procedures for some patients but not others, depending on "quality-adjusted life-years". We have been over it, but that doesn't mean you won the argument. You were only able to show that the NHS won't spend extortionate amounts of money on people who have terminal illnesses in order to extend their life by only a few months. And yet, in point 1 of this post you clearly show that you're ok with some level of triage when it comes to determining how much money you can plausibly spend to save someones life, and UHC systems can still allow people to go outside of this system to buy private care to extend the lives of people who are terminally ill and need very expensive treatment for a short extension.
	__________________ "I offer the world my genius. All I ask in return is that the world cover my expenses." Hugo Rune

31st July 2012, 02:31 PM	#926
Border Reiver Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Ottawa, ON Posts: 2,187	Originally Posted by Malcolm Kirkpatrick We've been over this in earlier health care discussions. Google "NICE, NHS, QALY". NHS supports procedures for some patients but not others, depending on "quality-adjusted life-years". All that site tells us is that the cost of new treatments will be measured against side effects and benefits. Nothing about what would be allowed or not.
	__________________ Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks?

31st July 2012, 01:09 PM	#923
Malcolm Kirkpatrick Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,136	Originally Posted by Border Reiver What procedures doesn't the NHS cover? Are they necessary procedures?(I ask this because procedures done for aesthetic reasons such as tattoo removal or say breast enlargement isn't covered). We've been over this in earlier health care discussions. Google "NICE, NHS, QALY". NHS supports procedures for some patients but not others, depending on "quality-adjusted life-years".

31st July 2012, 02:43 PM	#927
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 20,977	Originally Posted by Border Reiver All that site tells us is that the cost of new treatments will be measured against side effects and benefits. Nothing about what would be allowed or not. you don't understand, private insurance companies never tell patients what will or won't be covered.
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

31st July 2012, 02:44 PM	#928
Malcolm Kirkpatrick Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,136	Originally Posted by Border Reiver All that site tells us is that the cost of new treatments will be measured against side effects and benefits. Nothing about what would be allowed or not. Not "new". NHS will not support standard treatments if "benefits" do not justify the cost. Everybody weighs costs and benefits. Nothing wrong with that, in abstract. The problem for free marketeers is the aggregation of resources ("third party", "free rider", "moral hazard" issues) and aggregation of decisionmaking where "equal protection" considerations will outweigh extremely personal variations in values and material facts.

31st July 2012, 02:50 PM	#929
Malcolm Kirkpatrick Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,136	Originally Posted by stokes234 We have been over it, but that doesn't mean you won the argument.¹ You were only able to show that the NHS won't spend extortionate² amounts of money on people who have terminal illnesses in order to extend their life by only a few months. And yet, in point 1 of this post you clearly show that you're ok with some level of triage when it comes to determining how much money you can plausibly spend to save someones life, and UHC systems can still allow people to go outside of this system to buy private care to extend the lives of people who are terminally ill and need very expensive treatment for a short extension.³ 1. Some people still insist that they can trisect any angle with a compass annd straightedge. I haven't won that argument, either. Come to think of it, the Catholic Church and the Flat Earth society still exist. 2. You mean "exorbitant", right? All taxes are "extortion" (NTTAWWT). 3. We agree, here.

31st July 2012, 02:58 PM	#930
stokes234 Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: UK Posts: 2,295	Originally Posted by Malcolm Kirkpatrick 1. Some people still insist that they can trisect any angle with a compass annd straightedge. I haven't won that argument, either. Come to think of it, the Catholic Church and the Flat Earth society still exist. The general scientific consensus has moved, though. In the case of universal healthcare there isn't really a scientific consensus to be had, but the evidence there is that has appeared in this thread does not support your case. Originally Posted by Malcolm Kirkpatrick 2. You mean "exorbitant", right? All taxes are "extortion" (NTTAWWT). Sorry, I keep forgetting i'm going by the same dictionaries as 99% of english speakers, and you're going by the Free Market Handbook. To basically every english speaker in the world, "extortionate" means "excessive". http://www.thefreedictionary.com/extortionate http://oxforddictionaries.com/defini...h/extortionate http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/extortionate etc. Originally Posted by Malcolm Kirkpatrick 3. We agree, here. I was stating a fact, not giving an opinion. If you genuinely believe that Free Rider, Tragedy of the Commons stuff, show how it has negatively affected Western UHC systems to the point where the problems outweigh the far superior value. Or do you prefer theory to real world evidence?
	__________________ "I offer the world my genius. All I ask in return is that the world cover my expenses." Hugo Rune

31st July 2012, 03:03 PM	#931
Howie Felterbush Bow Tie Daddy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: In the twilight, singing all the old lullabies Posts: 5,333	Originally Posted by Rolfe You reminded me. I'm going on holiday next month (to Greece as it happens, I hear there are some great bargains....) and I have a European Healthcare Entitlement card which allows me to claim healthcare services while I'm there on the same terms as a Greek citizen. However, I had a nasty urinary tract infection in May for which I needed antibiotics. I've had such infections recurrently, though infrequently. I must remember to telephone my doctor and ask for a just-in-case prescription for a course of antibiotics to take with me, to save any inconvenience of having to chase up the Greek healthcare system while I'm there. He'll just send the prescription to the village pharmacy for me to pick up after work. No hassle, no charge. It's service like this that makes me happy to pay my (pretty reasonable) taxes. Rolfe. You have to go to a pharmacy to pick up your prescription? How barbaric. Where do you live, Cavemanistan? I get mine mailed to me.
	__________________ "Don't be too offended by the likes of him - I hear he doesn't even own ascots." -JoeyDonuts "I must be more tired than I thought. Howie, you are starting to make sense." -MG1962 "You're a mean old evil cynic. And mean." Halfcentaur

31st July 2012, 03:13 PM	#932
Border Reiver Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Ottawa, ON Posts: 2,187	Taxes are your "user fees" for living in society.
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31st July 2012, 04:15 PM	#933
Chris RN Muse Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 656	Well, starting tomorrow the ladies get better health care coverage.. I'm getting a pap smear to celebrate.
	__________________ Me: Awwwww Steve, you know you love me because I'm awesome!! Steve: Stop saying that, you know I hate that. Me: But you do, you know I'm awesome. Steve: (laughs) Yeah, you're awesome. Now go away.

31st July 2012, 10:55 PM	#934
magellan Thinker Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 174	Originally Posted by Malcolm Kirkpatrick Not "new". NHS will not support standard ("third party", "free rider", "moral hazard" issues) That's one issue. Real issues the free market has with health care: Barriers of entry (Quackery) Substitutes Consumer Information (When I go to a doctor he tells me what I want, not I him) Contracting (customer may be unconcious, in pain, fear of death and unable to enter a contract) Price inelasticity of demand (What's the free market price for a mugging?) Opportunity costs (2 million for an artificial coma? Why didn't that guy in Aurora shop around for a better deal?)
magellan Thinker Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 174

1st August 2012, 04:50 AM	#935
funk de fino Dreaming of unicorns Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Alba Posts: 10,795	I note Malcolm ignored my experience with longer waiting time for private provided surgery? You'd amost think that there was nothing that would ever change his mind on this subject and he has to ignore it when something jolts that certainty. ETA - also not just mine, but a close colleague had exactly the same situation. He was seen by NHS and it was a shorter waiting time.
	__________________ Stundie - Avoided like the plaque, its a scottish turn of phrase. Christopher 7 - There is no need to contact them for conformation. That is just a denial tactic Last edited by funk de fino; 1st August 2012 at 04:52 AM.