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Tags Amanda Knox , Giuliano Mignini , Meredith Kercher , murder cases , Raffaele Sollecito

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Old 24th January 2010, 06:47 PM   #2281
Fiona
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Quote:
Quote:
I was questioned by five men and women, some of whom punched and kicked me," he claims. "They forced me on my knees against the wall and said I should be in America where I would be given the electric chair for my crime. All they kept saying was, 'You did it, you did it.'
Journalists Douglas Preston and Mario Spezi got similar treatment.
Clearly you have linked the wrong article for there is no mention of abuse in the one referenced.

Can you fix it please?
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Old 24th January 2010, 07:10 PM   #2282
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That's funny. You can be imprisoned for 2 weeks in Italy and they'll make it up to you.

You can be imprisoned for years in the US and we'll go out of our way to find ways to screw you over for it.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/fix/Compensation.php
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/nov...-state-compen/
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Old 24th January 2010, 08:22 PM   #2283
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Originally Posted by Fiona View Post
and again without a link (tiny url now defunct) this translation from an Italian Newspaper
I wish people would learn that it is silly to use tinyurl for a reference.

Fortunately http://tinyurl.com/b3sbgt can be decoded to: http://sfoglia.ilmessaggero.it/sfogl..._UMBRIA=G&;tt=

I tried to search for "Lumumba" in that issue but nothing came up. You might need a subscription to retrieve archived issues. Either that or there is a coverup for the conspiracy!!!11!
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Old 25th January 2010, 01:13 AM   #2284
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Amanda claimed to have been abused. Other prisoners are routinely abused in this same town by these same people. Interrogations take place behind closed doors and are not recorded. Suspects are routinely denied legal counsel during interrogations.

Anyone who complains can count on being charged with the crime of defamation.

Do you really believe they didn't lay a hand on Amanda?
On the stand, albeit without the demands of an oath as a defendent would be required to swear in the US or Canada, AK demonstrated the extent of the physical abuse she suffered. She tapped herself twice on the head and continued, not any worse for the wear, with her statements. She was reported as pounding her fists on her own forehead during questioning, though, and this has not been denied by anyone on her defence team.

What you may not understand about the "crime of defamation" is one of a profound difference between Italy and either the US or Canada. Here, you can claim all kinds of ridiculous things about the police, jurors, judges, bailiffs, court reporters, or virtually any public figure you want to and there is no penalty or consequence. In Italy, by contrast, the civil rights of the authorities are protected as though they were common citizens (which, if you think about it, they are).

Michael and Nicki, two of the admins at PMF, have a lot more grounding in the legal differences between our system and theirs. I don't consider myself an expert but they will be able to direct you to links that reveal the distinctions.

Again, Kestrel, you have deliberately avoided explaining that the term "suspect" is, in Italy, a legal one and not the same as it is in North America. You have confused it with the term "witness" and I think Fulcanelli explained the distinction to you before on this thread. Witnesses may be detained and questioned without the provisions of counsel; suspects may not. This is why the Italian court ruled the statements of 01:45 and 05:45 (by AK on 02 NOV 2007) inadmissible.
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Old 25th January 2010, 01:42 AM   #2285
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Originally Posted by quixotecoyote View Post
That's funny. You can be imprisoned for 2 weeks in Italy and they'll make it up to you.

You can be imprisoned for years in the US and we'll go out of our way to find ways to screw you over for it.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/fix/Compensation.php
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/nov...-state-compen/
This is part of what makes it odd to me that Ted Simon is probably going to try to get AK moved to an American prison to serve out her sentence. Although no prison might be considered safe by any means, there is little doubt that her conditions at Capanne would be far better than at a US facility. Her mother mentioned that she had been able to bring books to AK at Capanne. This would not be possible at a place like the WCCW at Gig Harbor.

Here's an anecdotal view of what she'd expect there: http://wafreepress.org/41/medical.html. One of the frightening issues of women in US prisons is widespread mental illness. Moreover, most of them are there for drug-related offenses (including property offenses to support drug habits).

(Source: http://www.correctionalassociation.o...2009_FINAL.pdf )

AK's rehabilitation into society is more likely in Italy than it is in the US.
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Old 25th January 2010, 02:39 AM   #2286
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Originally Posted by stilicho View Post
What you may not understand about the "crime of defamation" is one of a profound difference between Italy and either the US or Canada. Here, you can claim all kinds of ridiculous things about the police, jurors, judges, bailiffs, court reporters, or virtually any public figure you want to and there is no penalty or consequence. In Italy, by contrast, the civil rights of the authorities are protected as though they were common citizens (which, if you think about it, they are).
I wonder if this has wider effects. It is my impression that it is very common to deeply distrust such figures in the US. I wonder if public opinion is iinfluenced by a drip feed of criticism which goes unchallenged. No way of knowing and my impression might be very wide of the mark: just something which occurred to me in the small hours


Quote:
Again, Kestrel, you have deliberately avoided explaining that the term "suspect" is, in Italy, a legal one and not the same as it is in North America. You have confused it with the term "witness" and I think Fulcanelli explained the distinction to you before on this thread. Witnesses may be detained and questioned without the provisions of counsel; suspects may not. This is why the Italian court ruled the statements of 01:45 and 05:45 (by AK on 02 NOV 2007) inadmissible.
It was explained at what, to me, seemed needless length, since the situation is absolutely the same both in the UK and in the USA. Witness statements are not routinely (that word again) recorded anywhere. Witnesses don't usually have lawyers present either (though I seem to remember one poster stating he would never talk to the police without one). It is not like we haven't been over this ground.
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Old 25th January 2010, 02:50 AM   #2287
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Fiona, if a witness was questioned in an interview room would that kind of thing normally not be recorded? I had naively supposed it would be.
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Old 25th January 2010, 02:52 AM   #2288
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Not here, no.

ETA: English code of guidance on recording of interviews can be seen here:

http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/publ...df?view=Binary

Quote:
3 Interviews to be audio recorded
3.1 Subject to paragraphs 3.3 and 3.4, audio recording shall be used at police stations
for any interview:
(a) with a person cautioned under Code C, section 10 in respect of any indictable
offence, including an offence triable either way; see Note 3A
(b) which takes place as a result of an interviewer exceptionally putting further
questions to a suspect about an offence described in paragraph 3.1(a) after
they have been charged with, or told they may be prosecuted for, that offence,
see Code C, paragraph 16.5
(c) when an interviewer wants to tell a person, after they have been charged with,
or informed they may be prosecuted for, an offence described in paragraph
3.1(a), about any written statement or interview with another person, see Code
C, paragraph 16.4.

Last edited by Fiona; 25th January 2010 at 03:06 AM.
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Old 25th January 2010, 03:00 AM   #2289
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Unless somebody wants to provide evidence to the contrary, that's good enough for me.
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Old 25th January 2010, 04:11 AM   #2290
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Fiona,

is this the grainy CCTV you were referring to:
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Wor...eNews=Politics

I think Dan O. is claiming to know of other cameras that might have captured something, though if their quality is similar I doubt they'd be of much help.
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Old 25th January 2010, 04:20 AM   #2291
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Fiona,

is this the grainy CCTV you were referring to:
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Wor...eNews=Politics

I think Dan O. is claiming to know of other cameras that might have captured something, though if their quality is similar I doubt they'd be of much help.

I think Dan O. is claiming to know that maybe somebody thinks there might have been, but since no one that he knows about bothered to ask until routine storage recycling might have maybe destroyed the hypothetical possible evidence there is obvious proof of a conspiracy against Knox.

At least that's what I got out of it.
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Old 25th January 2010, 04:34 AM   #2292
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I think Dan O. is claiming to know that maybe somebody thinks there might have been, but since no one that he knows about bothered to ask until routine storage recycling might have maybe destroyed the hypothetical possible evidence there is obvious proof of a conspiracy against Knox.

At least that's what I got out of it.
Geez! I hate to try to put myself into Dan O's mind but I'll guarantee you that's exactly what he thought. I continue to have these "injected false memories", though, so maybe it was someone else who imagined what I just now guaranteed.

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Old 25th January 2010, 04:53 AM   #2293
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Fiona,

is this the grainy CCTV you were referring to:
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Wor...eNews=Politics

I think Dan O. is claiming to know of other cameras that might have captured something, though if their quality is similar I doubt they'd be of much help.

I have seen at least one other, I think. Can't remember where now, but the quality was at least as bad. One could not tell anything from it
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Old 25th January 2010, 05:02 AM   #2294
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I think Dan O. is claiming to know that maybe somebody thinks there might have been, but since no one that he knows about bothered to ask until routine storage recycling might have maybe destroyed the hypothetical possible evidence there is obvious proof of a conspiracy against Knox.

At least that's what I got out of it.
Be fair, Dan O. did say this might be a defence ploy.

Incidentally, I've been Googling away looking for information on these traffic cameras without success. Does anybody know anything about them? Presumably if the defence did indeed ask for them, but were turned down, somebody would have complained to a newspaper about it at the very least.
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Old 25th January 2010, 05:18 AM   #2295
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Be fair, Dan O. did say this might be a defence ploy.

<snip

Well, yes. That was suggested. I'm not sure what else it could be. It doesn't make a very good prosecution argument.

Either.
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Old 25th January 2010, 05:59 AM   #2296
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Even if you assume that Amanda is guilty, the other three people that complained about abuse had committed no crimes.
As noted, I am not familiar with the case beyond what I have read on this thread and through a few links; I don't claim to be an expert, and others have dealt with your comments here far more capably than I could. It appears that one of those claims may well have been withdrawn and the other two claims may not even exist in the form you described. But once again your sloppy use of language gives you away - informal allegations of abuse are not the same as a formal complaint. You have provided no such evidence of any complaint.

Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Police and prosecutors have a simple solution for protecting their reputation. Start recording all interrogations and save the tapes. The only reason it would not work is if they are in fact abusing suspects.
You believe the police and prosecutors should be considered guilty until proven innocent? Is that something you think you picked up from the US legal system? I'd heard that was more of a Napoleonic code thing.

All I'm suggesting is that to get a conviction against them, the case against police and prosecutors should be set to the same standard of evidence that you expect to justify a conviction of Amanda Knox. As far as I can gather, even if the prosecutor's own boot print was visible on Amanda's face, and there were traces of Amanda's blood on the prosecutor's boot, by your own standards that wouldn't be enough to convict the prosecutor

Sorry. My sarcasm meter has just pegged, and I'm not really adding to this otherwise very informative thread. Once again, thanks to all for your contributions, and I'll drop out now.
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Old 25th January 2010, 07:25 AM   #2297
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CoolSkeptic,

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200607/florence-murder/6

Preston wrote about his interrogation, “I began to stumble over my words (as I’ve noted, I am not fluent in Italian, especially legal and criminological terms). With a growing sense of dismay, I could hear from my own stammering, hesitant voice that I was sounding like a liar.”

Preston also wrote of Spezi’s arrest, “The day of the arrest, Mignini asked for and received a special dispensation to invoke a law that is normally used only for terrorists or Mafia dons who pose an imminent threat to the state. For a period of five days Spezi was denied access to his lawyers, kept in a tiny isolation cell under conditions of extreme deprivation, and grilled mercilessly. It was noted in the press that Spezi’s treatment was harsher than that of Bernardo Provenzano, the Mafia “boss of bosses” captured in Sicily a few days later. Spezi spent three weeks in Capanne, one of Italy’s grimmest prisons.”

Chris
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Old 25th January 2010, 08:13 AM   #2298
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Originally Posted by Fiona View Post
I have seen at least one other, I think. Can't remember where now, but the quality was at least as bad. One could not tell anything from it
There was a time that security companies insisted on using real video tape because their lawyers didn't know how to present this new fangled digital stuf to a jury. A CCD camera and digital recording would produce acceptable images much like the one used here.


I said that it may have been a defense ploy to delay requesting the videos. However, given the time constraints involved, the prosecution had a week to secure this evidence; the defense only had a day at most. When were Amanda and Raffaele first given the opportunity to seek legal counsel?

Last edited by Dan O.; 25th January 2010 at 08:34 AM.
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Old 25th January 2010, 08:33 AM   #2299
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Originally Posted by Dan O. View Post
There was a time that security companies insisted on using real video tape because their lawyers didn't know how to present this new fangled digital stuf to a jury. A CCD camera and digital recording would produce acceptable images much like the one used here.


I said that it may have been a defense ploy to delay requesting the videos. However, given the time constraints involved, the prosecution had a week to secure this evidence; the defense only had a day at most. When were Amanda and Raffaele first given the opportunity to seek legal console?
Yet as I think you accept, what could the defence have gained from such a recording? If we have video of Amanda and Raphael heading to the appartment at 9pm it helps the prosecution, if we don't it helps no one. If the defence's story about where Amanda and Raphael were during the murder is true there will be no footage to verify it.

Do you have details of what cameras and perhaps even why the defence wanted the footage from them?
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Old 25th January 2010, 08:38 AM   #2300
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Originally Posted by Dan O. View Post
There was a time that security companies insisted on using real video tape because their lawyers didn't know how to present this new fangled digital stuf to a jury. A CCD camera and digital recording would produce acceptable images much like the one used here.


I said that it may have been a defense ploy to delay requesting the videos. However, given the time constraints involved, the prosecution had a week to secure this evidence; the defense only had a day at most. When were Amanda and Raffaele first given the opportunity to seek legal counsel?

Good link, Dan O. I enjoyed the article.

It makes the case that from a statistical perspective surveillance video does not contribute significantly, if at all, to the clearing of crime cases.

What was your point?
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Old 25th January 2010, 08:41 AM   #2301
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Do you have details of what cameras and perhaps even why the defence wanted the footage from them?
Yes. This camera


It's right at the south end of Raffaele's street and would show Amanda walking back to the cottage to take her shower, Amanda returning to Raffaele's place with the mop to clean up the spill in his kitchen and Amanda and Raffaele returning to the cottage shortly before they call the police. It would not show Amanda headed to the cottage with knife in hand on the evening of the 1st and returning soaked in blood afterwards.
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Old 25th January 2010, 08:51 AM   #2302
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Originally Posted by halides1 View Post
CoolSkeptic,

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200607/florence-murder/6

Preston wrote about his interrogation, “I began to stumble over my words (as I’ve noted, I am not fluent in Italian, especially legal and criminological terms). With a growing sense of dismay, I could hear from my own stammering, hesitant voice that I was sounding like a liar.”
I can see that Preston was given a tough time by the police. Whether or not it was abuse is a wider question that cannot be easily answered by a quote from him saying that he had a bad time and was made to feel like a criminal. To me, at the moment, it looks like Magnini was within the law unless it can be shown that he was acting improperly in having Preston brought in at all.

Originally Posted by halides1 View Post
Preston also wrote of Spezi’s arrest, “The day of the arrest, Mignini asked for and received a special dispensation to invoke a law that is normally used only for terrorists or Mafia dons who pose an imminent threat to the state. For a period of five days Spezi was denied access to his lawyers, kept in a tiny isolation cell under conditions of extreme deprivation, and grilled mercilessly. It was noted in the press that Spezi’s treatment was harsher than that of Bernardo Provenzano, the Mafia “boss of bosses” captured in Sicily a few days later. Spezi spent three weeks in Capanne, one of Italy’s grimmest prisons.”

Chris
Magnini looks to have stayed within the law again, unless it can be shown that he obtained the dispensation dishonestly. Did this form part of the case against Magnini, by the way?

I take it there is no reason to believe they might have been planting evidence?
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Old 25th January 2010, 08:54 AM   #2303
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Originally Posted by Dan O. View Post
Yes. This camera
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...dba7130e74.jpg

It's right at the south end of Raffaele's street and would show Amanda walking back to the cottage to take her shower, Amanda returning to Raffaele's place with the mop to clean up the spill in his kitchen and Amanda and Raffaele returning to the cottage shortly before they call the police. It would not show Amanda headed to the cottage with knife in hand on the evening of the 1st and returning soaked in blood afterwards.
Where are you getting this information from?
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Old 25th January 2010, 08:55 AM   #2304
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Originally Posted by Dan O. View Post
Yes. This camera
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...dba7130e74.jpg

It's right at the south end of Raffaele's street and would show Amanda walking back to the cottage to take her shower, Amanda returning to Raffaele's place with the mop to clean up the spill in his kitchen and Amanda and Raffaele returning to the cottage shortly before they call the police. It would not show Amanda headed to the cottage with knife in hand on the evening of the 1st and returning soaked in blood afterwards.
Or so the defense would hope. Right?

What more can you tell us about this camera? Who owns it? Who handles the data collection. What are its technical specs? What is its field of view, exactly? Does it operate 24/7? Does it provide a useful image at night? (Most webcams don't without substantial area lighting, you know.)

Do you know if relevant recording was asked for? By anyone? By whom?

That's a very pretty picture of a camera. What beyond conjecture and poorly concealed innuendo can you tell us that is actually relevant specifically to this case? Concerning specifically that camera?
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Old 25th January 2010, 09:00 AM   #2305
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Originally Posted by halides1 View Post
CoolSkeptic,

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200607/florence-murder/6

Preston wrote about his interrogation, “I began to stumble over my words (as I’ve noted, I am not fluent in Italian, especially legal and criminological terms). With a growing sense of dismay, I could hear from my own stammering, hesitant voice that I was sounding like a liar.”
So no brutality then?

Quote:
Preston also wrote of Spezi’s arrest, “The day of the arrest, Mignini asked for and received a special dispensation to invoke a law that is normally used only for terrorists or Mafia dons who pose an imminent threat to the state. For a period of five days Spezi was denied access to his lawyers, kept in a tiny isolation cell under conditions of extreme deprivation, and grilled mercilessly. It was noted in the press that Spezi’s treatment was harsher than that of Bernardo Provenzano, the Mafia “boss of bosses” captured in Sicily a few days later. Spezi spent three weeks in Capanne, one of Italy’s grimmest prisons.”

Chris
Capanne is one of Italy's grimmest prisons? Well I think that tells us something about the spin on Preston's writing, don't you? Capanne is where Knox was held

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/AmandaKnox...ory?id=9329773

Quote:
The reporter said the prison is "extremely clean." Knox's cell, which she shares with another American who has been sentenced on drug charges, is small. "It had a little bathroom with a door, a bidet, a sink, a shower.... better than some of the things I've seen at summer camp or boarding school."

The women inmates are allowed to go to a hairdresser once a week.

The prison is a new facility, just opened in 2005. The women's ward has an infirmary, an entertainment room with a pool table and ping-pong table, and a library. There is also a small chapel. Outside there is a little playground for children with benches and toys because there are cells specifically for women with children. Currently there are two women in Capanne with children.
This is interesting too

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-a...ould-save-her/

So from a claim that 4 people claimed brutality we find that .....er... none did.

Last edited by Fiona; 25th January 2010 at 09:07 AM.
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Old 25th January 2010, 09:07 AM   #2306
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Originally Posted by Fiona View Post
Capanne is one of Italy's grimmest prisons? Well I think that tells us something about the spin on Preston's writing, don't you?
False memory perhaps?
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Old 25th January 2010, 09:15 AM   #2307
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
False memory perhaps?
"Injected false memory". We need to be careful to keep these highly technical distinctions correct. Lest we fall into the error of making things up out of whole cloth.
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Old 25th January 2010, 09:20 AM   #2308
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Originally Posted by Fiona View Post
<snip>

This is interesting too

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-a...ould-save-her/

<snip>
That was a very good article. Thanks for the link.

It is clearly biased against Knox, though, since it presents more than one side of the argument.

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Old 25th January 2010, 09:31 AM   #2309
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It is because I have been hanging around at the wrong sites, quadraginta. But I can't help it, till Dan_O tells me where I should be going, because I clearly cannot think for myself: my "friends" have to look after me. They are all very remiss, and I may just take a fit of the vapours if they don't step up soon

Last edited by Fiona; 25th January 2010 at 09:32 AM.
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Old 25th January 2010, 09:39 AM   #2310
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Or so the defense would hope. Right?

What more can you tell us about this camera? Who owns it? Who handles the data collection. What are its technical specs? What is its field of view, exactly? Does it operate 24/7? Does it provide a useful image at night? (Most webcams don't without substantial area lighting, you know.)
Those are all good questions that the police should have asked on the 2nd of November, 2007 when Amanda told them the first time what she had done that day. Where are their results?


Quote:
Do you know if relevant recording was asked for? By anyone? By whom?
I already answered that. Please try to follow the thread.


Quote:
That's a very pretty picture of a camera. What beyond conjecture and poorly concealed innuendo can you tell us that is actually relevant specifically to this case? Concerning specifically that camera?
I've told you where that camera was and what it would have recorded. And if that camera isn't enough, there is another up the road and two more in the square just to the south.
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Old 25th January 2010, 09:44 AM   #2311
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Originally Posted by Dan O. View Post
Those are all good questions that the police should have asked on the 2nd of November, 2007 when Amanda told them the first time what she had done that day. Where are their results?
Why would they have done that? She was not a suspect at that stage


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I already answered that. Please try to follow the thread.
Can you spell irony?
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Old 25th January 2010, 10:03 AM   #2312
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Originally Posted by Dan O. View Post
Those are all good questions that the police should have asked on the 2nd of November, 2007 when Amanda told them the first time what she had done that day. Where are their results?
Perhaps they did? Do you have any links/transcripts/quotes etc relating to these cameras? You've mentioned already that the defence made a request for the footage. Presumably you have a link or two relating to that.

Originally Posted by Dan O. View Post
I've told you where that camera was and what it would have recorded. And if that camera isn't enough, there is another up the road and two more in the square just to the south.
I'd be much happier if we had some documentation from the case relating to these cameras. For all we know there are perfectly good reasons why the cameras weren't used. If the police were negligent in retrieving the footage I struggle to believe the defence or the Knox family would have kept quiet about it.
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Old 25th January 2010, 10:04 AM   #2313
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Originally Posted by Fiona View Post
Why would they have done that? She was not a suspect at that stage
The police were suspicious of the pair from the first day and commented on that in statements to the press. Deferring giving them the official status of "suspect" is only a legal play that gives them more freedom in their interrogationsinterviews.

Even if we grant that they were not suspects until the 6th, there is still time for the police to find and erasesecure their own video records.
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Old 25th January 2010, 10:12 AM   #2314
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Originally Posted by Dan O. View Post
The police were suspicious of the pair from the first day and commented on that in statements to the press. Deferring giving them the official status of "suspect" is only a legal play that gives them more freedom in their interrogationsinterviews.

Even if we grant that they were not suspects until the 6th, there is still time for the police to find and erasesecure their own video records.
Dan O.

Please provide the links/quotes etc that you are basing this on. Otherwise it's hard to know whether this talk of tapes getting erased is you idly wondering, or whether its something we need to give serious consideration to. Right now we have no evidence at all that any tapes were ever requested by the defence, erased, concealed, lost or anything else. All you've provided so far is a picture of a fairly generic looking security camera.
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Old 25th January 2010, 10:15 AM   #2315
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Where are you getting this information from?
Probably Google Maps/Street view.

http://tinyurl.com/ydhobxv

Last edited by odeed; 25th January 2010 at 10:19 AM.
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Old 25th January 2010, 10:28 AM   #2316
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Originally Posted by Dan O. View Post
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Or so the defense would hope. Right?

What more can you tell us about this camera? Who owns it? Who handles the data collection. What are its technical specs? What is its field of view, exactly? Does it operate 24/7? Does it provide a useful image at night? (Most webcams don't without substantial area lighting, you know.)
Those are all good questions that the police should have asked on the 2nd of November, 2007 when Amanda told them the first time what she had done that day. Where are their results?

Where is your evidence that they didn't? Besides the fact that Knox wasn't even a suspect yet. How do you know that was anything to be recovered of any evidentiary value at all? Unsubtle innuendo is not an argument, or a defense. Speaking of the defense, did they make any effort to ascertain whether or not this camera would even have been able to produce any images of value at the times in question? Was it even operational?

Quote:

Quote:
Do you know if relevant recording was asked for? By anyone? By whom?
I already answered that. Please try to follow the thread.
You answered nothing, you made some vague statements about the defense maybe trying to do something or other after it was too late. What, exactly, did they do? See above for examples of what a serious inquiry would have included. Was the defense even able to assert that there was a reasonable likelihood that useful images from the times in question had ever existed in the first place? Can you cite references to such an assertion?

Quote:
Quote:
That's a very pretty picture of a camera. What beyond conjecture and poorly concealed innuendo can you tell us that is actually relevant specifically to this case? Concerning specifically that camera?
I've told you where that camera was and what it would have recorded. And if that camera isn't enough, there is another up the road and two more in the square just to the south.
No. You didn't. You've claimed that the camera is in a certain location, and you've suggested that there might have been images of pertinence to the case recorded by that camera. You have established absolutely nothing.

For someone who is so adamant about demanding references and citations for every iota of debate which you find uncomfortable you certainly are pretty forgiving about the ones you find attractive.
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Old 25th January 2010, 10:39 AM   #2317
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Originally Posted by Dan O. View Post
The police were suspicious of the pair from the first day and commented on that in statements to the press. Deferring giving them the official status of "suspect" is only a legal play that gives them more freedom in their interrogationsinterviews.

Even if we grant that they were not suspects until the 6th, there is still time for the police to find and erasesecure their own video records.

I will ignore the fact that you again gloss over the legal distinctions between witness and suspect: it is obvious you cannot open your mouth without injecting your preconceptions, and I can't be bothered pointing it out every time: we will take your xenophobia as read.

So what are you saying? That they did not collect the footage? or that they did and they destroyed it? It cannot be the latter without adding whoever was in charge of that footage to the conspiracy (I know that will not trouble you). But for me you have to be claiming it was not collected for there would be people involved and a record most likely.

Ok. You have already been asked to show your source that it was not collected and I will wait for that. The footage from the car park was collected because it was reported in the Telegraph on the 12th that the police were seeking a fouth suspect who had been caught on that camera. I have seen that footage somewhere and it is as bad as the rest: you cant tell anything from it beyond that someone is there. I do not know when it was collected though: it may have been after the 6th

Do you know whether the police need authorisation to take camera records? Do you know if they had a prima facie justification for seeking it if they did?

On the other hand if they did not have reason to do it; or if they did not have evidence on which to do it, why would they do it on the 6th, when they were busy arresting Lumumba?

Who had a problem about that camera at that stage? The police did not, because Knox had told them she was at the cottage with Lumumba. RS did not, because he said he never went out. At some point Knox did, though, because she reverted to saying she was at RS's all evening. So if the police had time to recover those records after the 6th so too did the defence: and they had a lot less to do. Why did they not do it? Perhaps there was some legal obstacle? What is your idea?
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Old 25th January 2010, 10:51 AM   #2318
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I'd be much happier if we had some documentation from the case relating to these cameras. For all we know there are perfectly good reasons why the cameras weren't used. If the police were negligent in retrieving the footage I struggle to believe the defence or the Knox family would have kept quiet about it.
This bit reminds me of the Chandra Levy case (Washington DC, 2001), where the DC police were totally negligent in retrieving security-cam footage from her apartment building that might have cast light on what happened the day she disappeared. They did not retrieve it until after the tapes had been reused.

Very dissimilar cases, of course, since at that point they were looking for a missing person, but there was eventually a huge stink about the police bungling on that & other aspects of the investigation.
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Old 25th January 2010, 12:34 PM   #2319
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I think Dan O. is claiming to know that maybe somebody thinks there might have been, but since no one that he knows about bothered to ask until routine storage recycling might have maybe destroyed the hypothetical possible evidence there is obvious proof of a conspiracy against Knox.

At least that's what I got out of it.
Prosecutors routinely grab the first person off the street, beat a confession out of them*, then a corrupt judiciary sends them to prison. At least that's what I heard as the major tone in his concert.

*or use Jehdi mind tricks, not to sure on that.
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Old 25th January 2010, 12:46 PM   #2320
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Prosecutors routinely grab the first person off the street, beat a confession out of them*, then a corrupt judiciary sends them to prison. At least that's what I heard as the major tone in his concert.

*or use Jehdi mind tricks, not to sure on that.

Probably one of those Vulcan mind thingees.

Those Vulcans always looked suspiciously Mediterranean to me, anyway.
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