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24th January 2010, 06:47 PM | #2281 |
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24th January 2010, 07:10 PM | #2282 |
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That's funny. You can be imprisoned for 2 weeks in Italy and they'll make it up to you.
You can be imprisoned for years in the US and we'll go out of our way to find ways to screw you over for it. http://www.innocenceproject.org/fix/Compensation.php http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/nov...-state-compen/ |
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24th January 2010, 08:22 PM | #2283 |
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I wish people would learn that it is silly to use tinyurl for a reference.
Fortunately http://tinyurl.com/b3sbgt can be decoded to: http://sfoglia.ilmessaggero.it/sfogl..._UMBRIA=G&;tt= I tried to search for "Lumumba" in that issue but nothing came up. You might need a subscription to retrieve archived issues. Either that or there is a coverup for the conspiracy!!!11! |
25th January 2010, 01:13 AM | #2284 |
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On the stand, albeit without the demands of an oath as a defendent would be required to swear in the US or Canada, AK demonstrated the extent of the physical abuse she suffered. She tapped herself twice on the head and continued, not any worse for the wear, with her statements. She was reported as pounding her fists on her own forehead during questioning, though, and this has not been denied by anyone on her defence team.
What you may not understand about the "crime of defamation" is one of a profound difference between Italy and either the US or Canada. Here, you can claim all kinds of ridiculous things about the police, jurors, judges, bailiffs, court reporters, or virtually any public figure you want to and there is no penalty or consequence. In Italy, by contrast, the civil rights of the authorities are protected as though they were common citizens (which, if you think about it, they are). Michael and Nicki, two of the admins at PMF, have a lot more grounding in the legal differences between our system and theirs. I don't consider myself an expert but they will be able to direct you to links that reveal the distinctions. Again, Kestrel, you have deliberately avoided explaining that the term "suspect" is, in Italy, a legal one and not the same as it is in North America. You have confused it with the term "witness" and I think Fulcanelli explained the distinction to you before on this thread. Witnesses may be detained and questioned without the provisions of counsel; suspects may not. This is why the Italian court ruled the statements of 01:45 and 05:45 (by AK on 02 NOV 2007) inadmissible. |
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25th January 2010, 01:42 AM | #2285 |
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This is part of what makes it odd to me that Ted Simon is probably going to try to get AK moved to an American prison to serve out her sentence. Although no prison might be considered safe by any means, there is little doubt that her conditions at Capanne would be far better than at a US facility. Her mother mentioned that she had been able to bring books to AK at Capanne. This would not be possible at a place like the WCCW at Gig Harbor.
Here's an anecdotal view of what she'd expect there: http://wafreepress.org/41/medical.html. One of the frightening issues of women in US prisons is widespread mental illness. Moreover, most of them are there for drug-related offenses (including property offenses to support drug habits). (Source: http://www.correctionalassociation.o...2009_FINAL.pdf ) AK's rehabilitation into society is more likely in Italy than it is in the US. |
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"Suppose you're thinking about a plate of shrimp. Suddenly someone will say, 'Plate' or 'Shrimp' or 'Plate of shrimp,' out of the blue... It's all part of the cosmic unconsciousness." -- REPO MAN LondonJohn: "I don't need to cite." Rolfe: "I really hate lawyers." |
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25th January 2010, 02:39 AM | #2286 |
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I wonder if this has wider effects. It is my impression that it is very common to deeply distrust such figures in the US. I wonder if public opinion is iinfluenced by a drip feed of criticism which goes unchallenged. No way of knowing and my impression might be very wide of the mark: just something which occurred to me in the small hours
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25th January 2010, 02:50 AM | #2287 |
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Fiona, if a witness was questioned in an interview room would that kind of thing normally not be recorded? I had naively supposed it would be.
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25th January 2010, 02:52 AM | #2288 |
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Not here, no.
ETA: English code of guidance on recording of interviews can be seen here: http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/publ...df?view=Binary
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25th January 2010, 03:00 AM | #2289 |
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Unless somebody wants to provide evidence to the contrary, that's good enough for me.
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25th January 2010, 04:11 AM | #2290 |
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Fiona,
is this the grainy CCTV you were referring to: http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Wor...eNews=Politics I think Dan O. is claiming to know of other cameras that might have captured something, though if their quality is similar I doubt they'd be of much help. |
25th January 2010, 04:20 AM | #2291 |
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I think Dan O. is claiming to know that maybe somebody thinks there might have been, but since no one that he knows about bothered to ask until routine storage recycling might have maybe destroyed the hypothetical possible evidence there is obvious proof of a conspiracy against Knox. At least that's what I got out of it. |
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25th January 2010, 04:34 AM | #2292 |
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"Suppose you're thinking about a plate of shrimp. Suddenly someone will say, 'Plate' or 'Shrimp' or 'Plate of shrimp,' out of the blue... It's all part of the cosmic unconsciousness." -- REPO MAN LondonJohn: "I don't need to cite." Rolfe: "I really hate lawyers." |
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25th January 2010, 04:53 AM | #2293 |
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25th January 2010, 05:02 AM | #2294 |
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Be fair, Dan O. did say this might be a defence ploy.
Incidentally, I've been Googling away looking for information on these traffic cameras without success. Does anybody know anything about them? Presumably if the defence did indeed ask for them, but were turned down, somebody would have complained to a newspaper about it at the very least. |
25th January 2010, 05:18 AM | #2295 |
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25th January 2010, 05:59 AM | #2296 |
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As noted, I am not familiar with the case beyond what I have read on this thread and through a few links; I don't claim to be an expert, and others have dealt with your comments here far more capably than I could. It appears that one of those claims may well have been withdrawn and the other two claims may not even exist in the form you described. But once again your sloppy use of language gives you away - informal allegations of abuse are not the same as a formal complaint. You have provided no such evidence of any complaint.
You believe the police and prosecutors should be considered guilty until proven innocent? Is that something you think you picked up from the US legal system? I'd heard that was more of a Napoleonic code thing. All I'm suggesting is that to get a conviction against them, the case against police and prosecutors should be set to the same standard of evidence that you expect to justify a conviction of Amanda Knox. As far as I can gather, even if the prosecutor's own boot print was visible on Amanda's face, and there were traces of Amanda's blood on the prosecutor's boot, by your own standards that wouldn't be enough to convict the prosecutor Sorry. My sarcasm meter has just pegged, and I'm not really adding to this otherwise very informative thread. Once again, thanks to all for your contributions, and I'll drop out now. |
25th January 2010, 07:25 AM | #2297 |
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CoolSkeptic,
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200607/florence-murder/6 Preston wrote about his interrogation, “I began to stumble over my words (as I’ve noted, I am not fluent in Italian, especially legal and criminological terms). With a growing sense of dismay, I could hear from my own stammering, hesitant voice that I was sounding like a liar.” Preston also wrote of Spezi’s arrest, “The day of the arrest, Mignini asked for and received a special dispensation to invoke a law that is normally used only for terrorists or Mafia dons who pose an imminent threat to the state. For a period of five days Spezi was denied access to his lawyers, kept in a tiny isolation cell under conditions of extreme deprivation, and grilled mercilessly. It was noted in the press that Spezi’s treatment was harsher than that of Bernardo Provenzano, the Mafia “boss of bosses” captured in Sicily a few days later. Spezi spent three weeks in Capanne, one of Italy’s grimmest prisons.” Chris |
25th January 2010, 08:13 AM | #2298 |
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There was a time that security companies insisted on using real video tape because their lawyers didn't know how to present this new fangled digital stuf to a jury. A CCD camera and digital recording would produce acceptable images much like the one used here.
I said that it may have been a defense ploy to delay requesting the videos. However, given the time constraints involved, the prosecution had a week to secure this evidence; the defense only had a day at most. When were Amanda and Raffaele first given the opportunity to seek legal counsel? |
25th January 2010, 08:33 AM | #2299 |
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Yet as I think you accept, what could the defence have gained from such a recording? If we have video of Amanda and Raphael heading to the appartment at 9pm it helps the prosecution, if we don't it helps no one. If the defence's story about where Amanda and Raphael were during the murder is true there will be no footage to verify it.
Do you have details of what cameras and perhaps even why the defence wanted the footage from them? |
25th January 2010, 08:38 AM | #2300 |
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25th January 2010, 08:41 AM | #2301 |
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Yes. This camera
It's right at the south end of Raffaele's street and would show Amanda walking back to the cottage to take her shower, Amanda returning to Raffaele's place with the mop to clean up the spill in his kitchen and Amanda and Raffaele returning to the cottage shortly before they call the police. It would not show Amanda headed to the cottage with knife in hand on the evening of the 1st and returning soaked in blood afterwards. |
25th January 2010, 08:51 AM | #2302 |
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I can see that Preston was given a tough time by the police. Whether or not it was abuse is a wider question that cannot be easily answered by a quote from him saying that he had a bad time and was made to feel like a criminal. To me, at the moment, it looks like Magnini was within the law unless it can be shown that he was acting improperly in having Preston brought in at all.
Magnini looks to have stayed within the law again, unless it can be shown that he obtained the dispensation dishonestly. Did this form part of the case against Magnini, by the way? I take it there is no reason to believe they might have been planting evidence? |
25th January 2010, 08:54 AM | #2303 |
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25th January 2010, 08:55 AM | #2304 |
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Or so the defense would hope. Right?
What more can you tell us about this camera? Who owns it? Who handles the data collection. What are its technical specs? What is its field of view, exactly? Does it operate 24/7? Does it provide a useful image at night? (Most webcams don't without substantial area lighting, you know.) Do you know if relevant recording was asked for? By anyone? By whom? That's a very pretty picture of a camera. What beyond conjecture and poorly concealed innuendo can you tell us that is actually relevant specifically to this case? Concerning specifically that camera? |
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25th January 2010, 09:00 AM | #2305 |
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So no brutality then?
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http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/AmandaKnox...ory?id=9329773
Quote:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-a...ould-save-her/ So from a claim that 4 people claimed brutality we find that .....er... none did. |
25th January 2010, 09:07 AM | #2306 |
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25th January 2010, 09:15 AM | #2307 |
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"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation." |
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25th January 2010, 09:20 AM | #2308 |
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"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation." |
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25th January 2010, 09:31 AM | #2309 |
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It is because I have been hanging around at the wrong sites, quadraginta. But I can't help it, till Dan_O tells me where I should be going, because I clearly cannot think for myself: my "friends" have to look after me. They are all very remiss, and I may just take a fit of the vapours if they don't step up soon
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25th January 2010, 09:39 AM | #2310 |
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Those are all good questions that the police should have asked on the 2nd of November, 2007 when Amanda told them the first time what she had done that day. Where are their results?
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25th January 2010, 09:44 AM | #2311 |
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25th January 2010, 10:03 AM | #2312 |
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Perhaps they did? Do you have any links/transcripts/quotes etc relating to these cameras? You've mentioned already that the defence made a request for the footage. Presumably you have a link or two relating to that.
I'd be much happier if we had some documentation from the case relating to these cameras. For all we know there are perfectly good reasons why the cameras weren't used. If the police were negligent in retrieving the footage I struggle to believe the defence or the Knox family would have kept quiet about it. |
25th January 2010, 10:04 AM | #2313 |
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The police were suspicious of the pair from the first day and commented on that in statements to the press. Deferring giving them the official status of "suspect" is only a legal play that gives them more freedom in their
Even if we grant that they were not suspects until the 6th, there is still time for the police to find and |
25th January 2010, 10:12 AM | #2314 |
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Dan O.
Please provide the links/quotes etc that you are basing this on. Otherwise it's hard to know whether this talk of tapes getting |
25th January 2010, 10:15 AM | #2315 |
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25th January 2010, 10:28 AM | #2316 |
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Where is your evidence that they didn't? Besides the fact that Knox wasn't even a suspect yet. How do you know that was anything to be recovered of any evidentiary value at all? Unsubtle innuendo is not an argument, or a defense. Speaking of the defense, did they make any effort to ascertain whether or not this camera would even have been able to produce any images of value at the times in question? Was it even operational?
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For someone who is so adamant about demanding references and citations for every iota of debate which you find uncomfortable you certainly are pretty forgiving about the ones you find attractive. |
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25th January 2010, 10:39 AM | #2317 |
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I will ignore the fact that you again gloss over the legal distinctions between witness and suspect: it is obvious you cannot open your mouth without injecting your preconceptions, and I can't be bothered pointing it out every time: we will take your xenophobia as read. So what are you saying? That they did not collect the footage? or that they did and they destroyed it? It cannot be the latter without adding whoever was in charge of that footage to the conspiracy (I know that will not trouble you). But for me you have to be claiming it was not collected for there would be people involved and a record most likely. Ok. You have already been asked to show your source that it was not collected and I will wait for that. The footage from the car park was collected because it was reported in the Telegraph on the 12th that the police were seeking a fouth suspect who had been caught on that camera. I have seen that footage somewhere and it is as bad as the rest: you cant tell anything from it beyond that someone is there. I do not know when it was collected though: it may have been after the 6th Do you know whether the police need authorisation to take camera records? Do you know if they had a prima facie justification for seeking it if they did? On the other hand if they did not have reason to do it; or if they did not have evidence on which to do it, why would they do it on the 6th, when they were busy arresting Lumumba? Who had a problem about that camera at that stage? The police did not, because Knox had told them she was at the cottage with Lumumba. RS did not, because he said he never went out. At some point Knox did, though, because she reverted to saying she was at RS's all evening. So if the police had time to recover those records after the 6th so too did the defence: and they had a lot less to do. Why did they not do it? Perhaps there was some legal obstacle? What is your idea? |
25th January 2010, 10:51 AM | #2318 |
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This bit reminds me of the Chandra Levy case (Washington DC, 2001), where the DC police were totally negligent in retrieving security-cam footage from her apartment building that might have cast light on what happened the day she disappeared. They did not retrieve it until after the tapes had been reused.
Very dissimilar cases, of course, since at that point they were looking for a missing person, but there was eventually a huge stink about the police bungling on that & other aspects of the investigation. |
25th January 2010, 12:34 PM | #2319 |
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25th January 2010, 12:46 PM | #2320 |
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