The Man In A Suit - Alien Evolution - Page 3

gumboot · 24th November 2012, 02:44 PM

Just wanted to say I've personally found this thread to be fascinating and incredibly informative. Thank you everyone who is contributing. Man I love science!

luchog · 27th November 2012, 07:35 AM

Originally Posted by McHrozni

Though we generally agree, I would say that the low amounts of Boron in the Solar system shouldn't be a limitation here. Boron could be more common in other star systems or galaxies.

If it were, spectroscopic analysis would indicate that. Since there isn't a whole lot of variation in Boron concentration in observable star systems, it would require, as noted before, a highly idiosyncratic concentration in a small area. Since Boron production is via cosmic ray interaction rather than stellar nucleosynthesis, it is highly unlikely for such a concentration to exist.

luchog · 27th November 2012, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by gumboot

I think, however, you could establish the very first common frames of reference by using principals found throughout the galaxy. In a similar way, when early explorers first encountered native peoples around the world there was often little or no frame of reference from a cultural point of view, but we still had the basics in common; land, water, sky, etc.

By that same principal, we and any advanced lifeform have things in common; elemental particles, orbital patterns, stars, pulsars, etc.

The problem is communicating those commonalities rely on a common frame of reference. With other Homo sapiens we are the same species, from the same evolutionary pathway, and therefore we see in the same spectrum and hear in the same frequency, and our brains process information in the same way. Finding a common frame of reference is simple.

With Aliens, there is no way to know if they even see the same spectrum or hear the same frequencies (although some overlap is expected, how much will likely vary). And while some things are universal, such as mathematical relationships, expressions of these universals can vary considerably, so the problem of notation of even the most basic mathematics can be a substantial challenge to overcome. And again, that's assuming they process information in the same way. Human brains are highly differentiated and linear. Imagine the difficulties inherent in communicating with a species capable of complex cognitive multitasking.

gumboot · 30th November 2012, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by luchog

The problem is communicating those commonalities rely on a common frame of reference. With other Homo sapiens we are the same species, from the same evolutionary pathway, and therefore we see in the same spectrum and hear in the same frequency, and our brains process information in the same way. Finding a common frame of reference is simple.

With Aliens, there is no way to know if they even see the same spectrum or hear the same frequencies (although some overlap is expected, how much will likely vary). And while some things are universal, such as mathematical relationships, expressions of these universals can vary considerably, so the problem of notation of even the most basic mathematics can be a substantial challenge to overcome. And again, that's assuming they process information in the same way. Human brains are highly differentiated and linear. Imagine the difficulties inherent in communicating with a species capable of complex cognitive multitasking.

I disagree. I hear where you're coming from, but the common reference points I'm referring to don't rely on a common frame of reference or a common perception. They're physical phenomenon, and the characteristics of those phenomenon aren't going to mysteriously change just because you observe it in a different way. Whether I perceive the size of an orange by comparing it visually, or by measuring it on a ruler, or by using radar, its physical size remains the same.

An alien species can cross-reference their own perception of the identified physical phenomenon to "translate" our perception, thus creating a common point of communication.

24th November 2012, 02:44 PM	#81
gumboot lorcutus.tolere Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 23,126	Just wanted to say I've personally found this thread to be fascinating and incredibly informative. Thank you everyone who is contributing. Man I love science!
	__________________ O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.

27th November 2012, 07:35 AM	#82
luchog Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Emerald City Posts: 7,958	Originally Posted by McHrozni Though we generally agree, I would say that the low amounts of Boron in the Solar system shouldn't be a limitation here. Boron could be more common in other star systems or galaxies. If it were, spectroscopic analysis would indicate that. Since there isn't a whole lot of variation in Boron concentration in observable star systems, it would require, as noted before, a highly idiosyncratic concentration in a small area. Since Boron production is via cosmic ray interaction rather than stellar nucleosynthesis, it is highly unlikely for such a concentration to exist.
	__________________ "All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams "The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf "Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon

27th November 2012, 12:39 PM	#83
luchog Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Emerald City Posts: 7,958	Originally Posted by gumboot I think, however, you could establish the very first common frames of reference by using principals found throughout the galaxy. In a similar way, when early explorers first encountered native peoples around the world there was often little or no frame of reference from a cultural point of view, but we still had the basics in common; land, water, sky, etc. By that same principal, we and any advanced lifeform have things in common; elemental particles, orbital patterns, stars, pulsars, etc. The problem is communicating those commonalities rely on a common frame of reference. With other Homo sapiens we are the same species, from the same evolutionary pathway, and therefore we see in the same spectrum and hear in the same frequency, and our brains process information in the same way. Finding a common frame of reference is simple. With Aliens, there is no way to know if they even see the same spectrum or hear the same frequencies (although some overlap is expected, how much will likely vary). And while some things are universal, such as mathematical relationships, expressions of these universals can vary considerably, so the problem of notation of even the most basic mathematics can be a substantial challenge to overcome. And again, that's assuming they process information in the same way. Human brains are highly differentiated and linear. Imagine the difficulties inherent in communicating with a species capable of complex cognitive multitasking.
	__________________ "All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams "The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf "Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon

30th November 2012, 05:41 PM	#84
gumboot lorcutus.tolere Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 23,126	Originally Posted by luchog The problem is communicating those commonalities rely on a common frame of reference. With other Homo sapiens we are the same species, from the same evolutionary pathway, and therefore we see in the same spectrum and hear in the same frequency, and our brains process information in the same way. Finding a common frame of reference is simple. With Aliens, there is no way to know if they even see the same spectrum or hear the same frequencies (although some overlap is expected, how much will likely vary). And while some things are universal, such as mathematical relationships, expressions of these universals can vary considerably, so the problem of notation of even the most basic mathematics can be a substantial challenge to overcome. And again, that's assuming they process information in the same way. Human brains are highly differentiated and linear. Imagine the difficulties inherent in communicating with a species capable of complex cognitive multitasking. I disagree. I hear where you're coming from, but the common reference points I'm referring to don't rely on a common frame of reference or a common perception. They're physical phenomenon, and the characteristics of those phenomenon aren't going to mysteriously change just because you observe it in a different way. Whether I perceive the size of an orange by comparing it visually, or by measuring it on a ruler, or by using radar, its physical size remains the same. An alien species can cross-reference their own perception of the identified physical phenomenon to "translate" our perception, thus creating a common point of communication.
	__________________ O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.