What did Prisoner X do that was so bad? - Page 3

Hallo Alfie · 19th February 2013, 12:18 AM

He he. Pawn or prawn?
A fact checker and some deeper investigation might have been in order, no?

Sceptic-PK · 19th February 2013, 12:56 AM

Originally Posted by Hallo Alfie

If that were the case there would be conservative type presenters and producers at the ABC (or are over 50% of the population on the political fringes?). There is not a single one for any prime time type broadcasts.

It would be truer to suggest that many fringe dwellers can be found within the groupthink at the ABC.

I feel sorry for people so twisted by partisan bile like you are. 4 Corners for instance is superior to anything the private sector has ever produced in Australia. Hell, there's been nothing since Sunday was axed that comes close to actual journalism in the private sphere (as far as TV goes). It's a real shame.

Hallo Alfie · 19th February 2013, 01:00 AM

Originally Posted by Sceptic-PK

I feel sorry for people so twisted by partisan bile like you are. 4 Corners for instance is superior to anything the private sector has ever produced in Australia. Hell, there's been nothing since Sunday was axed that comes close to actual journalism in the private sphere (as far as TV goes). It's a real shame.

So you can't find one single conservative presenter or producer either? I wasn't just talking TV either, you can go to radio national, the Drum and further. I guess I have confirmation of my claim. Cheers.

Sceptic-PK · 19th February 2013, 01:07 AM

Originally Posted by Hallo Alfie

So you can't find one single conservative presenter or producer either?

I don't look at people through the binary lense you obviously do. I couldn't tell you, for instance, about Tony Jones' political leaning. Balance is about reporting the facts, not some silly notion of equalisation between "liberal and conservative" viewpoints.

a_unique_person · 19th February 2013, 01:28 AM

More from the ABC.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-1...0?WT.svl=news5

Quote:

Suspected Mossad agent Ben Zygier was arrested by his own spymasters after they believed he told Australia's domestic intelligence agency about every aspect of his work with the Israelis, sources say.

The ABC's Foreign Correspondent program understands that Zygier met with ASIO officers in Australia and gave comprehensive detail about a number of Mossad operations, including plans for a top-secret mission in Italy that had been years in the making.

Hallo Alfie · 19th February 2013, 01:43 AM

Originally Posted by Sceptic-PK

I don't look at people through the binary lense you obviously do. I couldn't tell you, for instance, about Tony Jones' political leaning.

Then you have never seen him interview anyone.

Originally Posted by Sceptic-PK

Balance is about reporting the facts, not some silly notion of equalisation between "liberal and conservative" viewpoints.

No. Balance is about reporting the facts as seen by one side and the facts on the other. eg. (and I use this only as an example) Gay marriage, what are both sides of the argument? Are they both portrayed, reported and given equal time.

If not they are not balanced.

If they are only reporting the facts as seen from one side, they are not balanced. The ABC as our national carrier has an obligation within its charter to be balanced. On this score it leaves a lot to be desired.

Hallo Alfie · 19th February 2013, 01:45 AM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

More from the ABC.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-1...0?WT.svl=news5

Post #69 remains outstanding AUP. I assume now you were lying as you have provided zero evidence to support your claims.

Wildy · 19th February 2013, 02:23 AM

Originally Posted by Hallo Alfie

Yet you do not deny the allegation I make.

Because at present it's a baseless one, since you've provided no evidence for it.

Quote:

This aside - and to wander even further off topic - your statement on 'parroting tripe' is untrue and you know it.

Apart from all the posts of yours that are basically a link to a News Ltd site and a glib comment like "worst PM ever".

Quote:

Unlike the ABCs article above, I often provide a number of sources (each side, as it were) and show the facts.

Yes, you show The Australian's side and The Daily Telegraph's.

Quote:

In other instances, opinions (which is what you are talking about) are outlined as such. As a consequence all sorts of nonsense passes as journalism - even worse when you consider it comes from our national broadcaster, which is supposed to be unbiased.

This coming from the man who basically linked to every known article that News Ltd wrote on the AWU scandal.

Quote:

Opinion and facts are different.

Yes. Yes they are. For example: "The ABC has an anti-Israel bias" is an opinion. "The ABC is our national broadcaster" is a fact.

Quote:

Closer to topic: The ABC has bedded innuendo, (presumably) rumours and opinion as fact in their article above.

Such as?

Quote:

Did you know that the ABC does not employ fact checkers?

Evidence?

Matthew Ellard · 19th February 2013, 04:18 PM

I wonder if his wife must have visited him in gaol just after he got arrested? I'm simply saying the dates are a bit odd and need further scrutiny. Was he in detention for more than 9 months?

(December 2010) Four days before he was found dead, his wife gave birth to their second daughter

Prisoner X was isolated from the rest of the prison population, but he was allowed visits from his lawyers

(February 2010) Senator Carr is also asking Israel for some answers over Mr Zygier's arrest by Israeli authorities in February 2010

a_unique_person · 21st February 2013, 04:26 AM

Quote:

When asked what he thought Zygier must have done to be locked up in Israel's highest security cell, Mr Ben-David said: "I think Zygier divulged very sensitive information to a foreign element.

"They say he spoke to a journalist and he spoke about the people he worked with and how they work and methods of work and all kinds of operations that are being conducted.

"It is quite clear I think for the Israeli agencies that Zygier was not acting out of malice.

"There was no motive of greed, no ideology. I don't know if he was trying just to boast but he did something very serious and when he was jailed they weren't sure how to treat him.

"It was clear that he is not a criminal but still he did something very wrong. That's why they negotiated a plea bargain with him.

"He was charged with divulging information, critical information to a foreign element that was not supposed to be exposed to that kind of information."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-2...8?WT.svl=news4

Hallo Alfie · 21st February 2013, 04:45 AM

Point?

Cleon · 21st February 2013, 04:49 AM

I wonder how many other people Israel has "disappeared."

Of course, this is a perfectly normal thing for any democratic nation to do, and to say otherwise would be anti-Semitic.

Doctor Evil · 21st February 2013, 04:53 AM

Originally Posted by Cleon

I wonder how many other people Israel has "disappeared."

Of course, this is a perfectly normal thing for any democratic nation to do, and to say otherwise would be anti-Semitic.

Can you define precisely what you mean by "disappeared", and how it is relevant to this case? Can I also infer that your country would never arrest spies and keep the fact that it holds them from the press?

Eddie Dane · 21st February 2013, 05:15 AM

Killing someone in special high security custody would be a extraordinarily stupid way to go about it.
Even if they made it look like a suicide.

OTOH, it appears to me that if Mr X had not ended up in a high-security cell in Israel for divulging state secrets, he would have ended up in an Australian high-security cell for spying for a foreign government.
And in that situation he could have been a huge embarrassment for the Israelis, and causing an even bigger stink.

If MrX was involved in procuring Australian passports, for use by Mossad agents, it would be a major PR disaster in it's own right. Completely innocent Australians might have ended up on the radar of various secret services.
I would be rather unnerved by the thought that the Iranians were looking for me because my passport was used in some Mossad operation, as happened after the assassination case in Dubai recently.

How was this supposed to have gone? He just applied for passports in different names in Australia?
That doesn't sound very refined, and rather sounds like something you could have done by common criminals for some cash.

And am I the only one who thinks that Mr X sounds a bit like a hapless wannabe spy who couldn't manage, couldn't keep quiet, and naively boasted about his work as a spy?
Is Mossad this desperate for foreign personnel?

angrysoba · 21st February 2013, 05:25 AM

Originally Posted by Eddie Dane

And am I the only one who thinks that Mr X sounds a bit like a hapless wannabe spy who couldn't manage, couldn't keep quiet, and naively boasted about his work as a spy?

You may be. He was a real spy wasn't he? If he wasn't then that would make his incarceration and demise seem even more troubling.

trustbutverify · 21st February 2013, 05:32 AM

Originally Posted by Cleon

I wonder how many other people Israel has "disappeared."

Of course, this is a perfectly normal thing for any democratic nation to do, and to say otherwise would be anti-Semitic.

Didn't know you BDS one-staters considered the Zionist entity to be a "democratic nation".

Obviously, the Zio-pigs faked his suicide to prevent all of their passport crimes from getting out. And to harvest his organs.

Eddie Dane · 21st February 2013, 05:57 AM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

You may be. He was a real spy wasn't he? If he wasn't then that would make his incarceration and demise seem even more troubling.

If you spy, you're a real spy by definition. that doesn't make you good spy or remarkably stress-resistant.

Hell, someone recruited Mata Hari as a spy. If you look past the romantic re-telling of her story, she was actually a clueless ex-stripper with no clue of what she was doing.
Promptly caught and executed.

And who was that Israeli spy from the eighties? Pollard?
Guy freaked out so badly when he found out the FBI was tailing him, that he got in his car and drove himself + FBI-tail to the Israeli embassy and demanded to be let in!

I'm sure people join the army, mercenary groups, street-gangs and the Wall Mart greeter team, and later curse themselves for making that particular carreer choice.

Mycroft · 21st February 2013, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

When Zygier had become an Israeli citizen, he had also retained his Australian citizenship. This allowed him to travel on Australian or Israeli passports. It also allowed him to obtain passports from Australia for use by Mossad. Mossad would have required that he retain dual citizenship so he could obtain the passports. So he is in effect, betraying Australia, because he is still a citizen of Australia.

You're making a lot of statements here that have no basis.

How would retaining Australian citizenship allow him to obtain Australian passports other than his own?

How can you possibly feel qualified to make assertions about what Mossad would or would not require of an employee?

In what way do you feel he "betrayed" Australia?

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

What this could mean is that ASIO had already worked out what was going on, because he had asked for several passports in different names, which you would expect to raise some alerts.

Are you stating that he asked for passports in different names, or are you speculating? Is the Australian system different in that a citizen would be allowed to ask for passports in different names? In the US you can only get one in your own name.

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

So ASIO was on to him, and we don't know what they planned to do about this, or expected of him. Mossad then found out that he had been compromised by ASIO, so he is now a traitor to Israel as well. Le Carre couldn't have thought up better double bind. His loyalty to two countries makes him a traitor to both, and winds up with his death.

How does being compromised make him a traitor to Israel?

JoeTheJuggler · 21st February 2013, 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by Doctor Evil

Explanation to whom? The family? The Israeli public? You?

The civilized world. Why have they chosen to flout the rule of law like this?

Whatever crime the guy may or may not have committed doesn't justify this treatment.

trustbutverify · 21st February 2013, 05:24 PM

Which nations, specifically, comprise the "civilized world'?

a_unique_person · 22nd February 2013, 04:06 AM

Originally Posted by Eddie Dane

If MrX was involved in procuring Australian passports, for use by Mossad agents, it would be a major PR disaster in it's own right. Completely innocent Australians might have ended up on the radar of various secret services.
I would be rather unnerved by the thought that the Iranians were looking for me because my passport was used in some Mossad operation, as happened after the assassination case in Dubai recently.

How was this supposed to have gone? He just applied for passports in different names in Australia?
That doesn't sound very refined, and rather sounds like something you could have done by common criminals for some cash.

Errrm, if you actually read the links, it is all explained. Technically, an Australian can apply for a new passport every time they change their name, but this can't be done more than once a year. So he changed his name several times, and applied for a new passport each time. He did this regularly enough to trigger some internal alarms.

a_unique_person · 22nd February 2013, 04:18 AM

A suicide proof cell. I thought he must have used some sort of brilliant ingenuity to kill himself.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/20/wo...-xs-death.html

Quote:

JERUSALEM — The man known as Prisoner X was found dead at 8:19 p.m. on Dec. 15, 2010, hanging by his neck in the shower of his cell. The noose was fashioned from a wet bedsheet, rolled and tied to the window bars. There was a hint of a sedative in his stomach and a wound on his left hand, but neither contributed to his demise, which was caused by asphyxiation.

Looks like the most obvious you it could be done to me. Why are there bars you can tie a rope to in a suicide proof cell?

Quote:

http://www.timesofisrael.com/zygier-...ers-found-him/

‘Zygier hung dead for an hour before jailers found him’Prison guards reportedly fell asleep at the monitors and didn’t notice their charge had committed suicide

They all fall asleep, just when he happens to want to suicide, in a suicide proof cell. This is beyond Le Carre and is getting bizarre.

a_unique_person · 22nd February 2013, 04:24 AM

Quote:

Speculation about who knew what, and when, has been rife since the sensational revelation that Prisoner X was Mr Zygier.
Much of the media reporting has said that ASIO not only informed the Australian mission in Tel Aviv of Mr Zygier's detention but interrogated him before he was detained.
Advertisement
But a well-placed source familiar with the case said Israeli intelligence - understood to be its internal security service, Shin Bet - had in fact tipped off Australian officials first.
And this week, Israel's Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, issued a statement saying ''the late Mr Zygier had no contact with the Australian security services'', a view backed by Attorney-General Mark Dreyfus.
''The Israeli Prime Minister has issued a statement noting that Mr Zygier had no contact with Australian security agencies and explaining that there is excellent co-operation, full co-ordination and complete transparency between the government of Israel and the government of Australia,'' his spokesman said.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/national/is...#ixzz2Ld77gF1h

And now completely contradictory information on (a) if he ever did even talk to ASIO, and (b), when the Australian Government knew what about his problems.

Eddie Dane · 22nd February 2013, 04:36 AM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

Errrm, if you actually read the links, it is all explained. Technically, an Australian can apply for a new passport every time they change their name, but this can't be done more than once a year. So he changed his name several times, and applied for a new passport each time. He did this regularly enough to trigger some internal alarms.

I had not read that. Thanks for the explanation.

Doesn't sound like something one can do for an extended period without setting off alarms.

It would have made a lot more sense if they'd just paid Australians to acquire passports and not use the same person to get more than one or two documents.

Unless Australia has no stupid young adults, druggies, people with debts etc.

a_unique_person · 22nd February 2013, 04:41 AM

Originally Posted by Eddie Dane

I had not read that. Thanks for the explanation.

Doesn't sound like something one can do for an extended period without setting off alarms.

It would have made a lot more sense if they'd just paid Australians to acquire passports and not use the same person to get more than one or two documents.

Unless Australia has no stupid young adults, druggies, people with debts etc.

I think that would be even more risky. What they did in New Zealand was try to claim the identity of a severely disabled man.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossad

Hallo Alfie · 24th March 2013, 03:30 PM

To the OP. The answer might be found in these:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news...-1226605062114
http://www.theage.com.au/national/zy...324-2gocs.html
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/nat...-1226605081650

Quote:

MELBOURNE-born former Mossad agent Ben Zygier was outfoxed trying to turn a Hezbollah man into a double agent, unwittingly becoming one himself.

According to media reports, Zygier - known popularly as Prisoner X - handed over the names of two valuable informants in Lebanon as a way to curry favour with Israel's arch-enemy Hezbollah.

That is the reason why he became a top-secret inmate in an Israeli jail where he took his own life.

No conspiracy, no underhanded Jewish operation, no murder.
Far more likely and tragically, he was just a poor spy who made a stupid mistake and decided to end his life rather than spend a decade in prison.

trustbutverify · 24th March 2013, 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by Hallo Alfie

No conspiracy, no underhanded Jewish operation, no murder.
Far more likely and tragically, he was just a poor spy who made a stupid mistake and decided to end his life rather than spend a decade in prison.

Have you cleared this with the idiots who believe Bush brought down the towers and Obama gave Chavez cancer?

Hallo Alfie · 24th March 2013, 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by trustbutverify

Have you cleared this with the idiots who believe Bush brought down the towers and Obama gave Chavez cancer?

I suspect someone will be along soon to explain why those reports are wrong.

a_unique_person · 25th March 2013, 03:00 AM

From "The Age" today.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/th...324-2god9.html

Quote:

Under intense questioning from the Shin Bet, he broke down and admitted that sometime in 2008, before he took his leave of absence and moved to Australia, he had flown to eastern Europe to meet a man he knew to have close links with Hezbollah, with the intention of turning that person into a double agent.
Instead, the man reported the recruitment attempt to Beirut, and himself began playing the same game as Zygier, except in reverse. Without Zygier’s knowledge, the man was reporting every detail of his contact with Zygier back to the Hezbollah leadership in Beirut. Israeli officials believe even Hassan Nasrallah himself was being kept informed.
The contact between Zygier and the man went on for months. When the man asked Zygier for proof he was a real Mossad agent, Zygier readily complied and began supplying him with real intelligence from Tel Aviv, including the names of Ziad al-Homsi and Mustafa Ali Awadeh, the Mossad’s two top informants in Lebanon.
Israeli officials with access to the probe say that when Zygier was arrested, he was also found carrying a compact disc with additional classified information from the Tzomet department, which they believe he was also preparing to hand over to the other side.
At a meeting in Tel Aviv this month, a black limousine with darkened windows drove into a public car park, bringing a reporter to a meeting with an Israeli government official.
‘‘Zygier wanted to achieve something that he didn’t end up getting,’’ said the official, who is familiar with the investigation. ‘‘And then he ended up on a precipitous path. He crossed paths with someone who was much more professional than he was.’’
At some point, he says, Zygier crossed a red line and went to the dark side. His fate, the official points out, was largely a matter of psychology.
Israeli informants have certainly changed sides in the past. But a regular Mossad employee has never done what Zygier did. It is a bitter defeat for the Mossad, but for Hezbollah it is one of the rare instances in which an Arab intelligence service prevailed over its Jewish counterpart.
Zygier’s actions are also a heavy blow to the Mossad because they raise doubts as to the integrity of the agency’s own people – and the manner in which it recruits employees.
Lior Brand, one of Zygier’s friends from Kibbutz Gazit, believes Zygier simply wasn’t up to the task. The lies, the silence and the loneliness were too much for him, says Brand, adding the Mossad ‘‘made a big mistake’’ by recruiting him. He says he will never forgive it for recruiting the wrong person.
Negotiations over Zygier’s sentence were conducted behind the scenes in December 2010. The Mossad and Shin Bet wanted to set an example and demanded he spend at least 10 years in prison.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/national/th...#ixzz2OXnMkB62

Hallo Alfie · 25th March 2013, 03:21 AM

Your point being? Links have been provided already outlining this. Have you something to add?

Eddie Dane · 25th March 2013, 04:21 AM

It's a very interesting -and tragic- story.

Looks like this guy was in way over his head.

Some thing are weird about it though.
X knew the names oh high-level informants? Why?

You'd think that a spy organisation was much more compartmentalised.

Also, Hezbollah asking for information sounds like a grand occasion to feed them a confusing mix of correct and incorrect information.

And this dude didn't report what he was doing to his handlers?

a_unique_person · 25th March 2013, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by Eddie Dane

It's a very interesting -and tragic- story.

Looks like this guy was in way over his head.

Some thing are weird about it though.
X knew the names oh high-level informants? Why?

You'd think that a spy organisation was much more compartmentalised.

Also, Hezbollah asking for information sounds like a grand occasion to feed them a confusing mix of correct and incorrect information.

And this dude didn't report what he was doing to his handlers?

Like I said, it's straight out of Le Carre novel. If he had written this story, people would have said the plot was unrealistic.

Darth Rotor · 26th March 2013, 09:16 PM

Quote:

What did Prisoner X do that was so bad?

1. He didn't keep Kosher.
2. He was circumcised by Occam's Razor.

Jesus T Christ, folks, what is it about cloak and dagger stuff that you think calls for transparency?

If his family doesn't want to talk about it

Edited by kmortis:

Removed personal comment

Show a little respect, to his family.

trustbutverify · 26th March 2013, 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by Eddie Dane

It's a very interesting -and tragic- story.

Looks like this guy was in way over his head.

Some thing are weird about it though.
X knew the names oh high-level informants? Why?

You'd think that a spy organisation was much more compartmentalised.

Also, Hezbollah asking for information sounds like a grand occasion to feed them a confusing mix of correct and incorrect information.

And this dude didn't report what he was doing to his handlers?

I was thinking exactly the same thing. Had a sound agent found himself in that situation, the benefits could have been profound. Tragic all the way around.

Eddie Dane · 27th March 2013, 02:47 AM

Originally Posted by trustbutverify

I was thinking exactly the same thing. Had a sound agent found himself in that situation, the benefits could have been profound. Tragic all the way around.

Well, not all the way around.

Hezbollah got some mileage out of it.

19th February 2013, 12:18 AM	#81
Hallo Alfie Alexithymically superadjusted Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 10,005	He he. Pawn or prawn? A fact checker and some deeper investigation might have been in order, no?
	__________________ Alfie is a real goose. Lionking http://forums.randi.org/member.php?u=14601 'Sex by surprise is a form of "rape" unknown outside of Sweden.' Bit Pattern http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...91#post8776491 'Show me a young conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains.' Francois Guizot

19th February 2013, 12:56 AM	#82
Sceptic-PK Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 2,402	Originally Posted by Hallo Alfie If that were the case there would be conservative type presenters and producers at the ABC (or are over 50% of the population on the political fringes?). There is not a single one for any prime time type broadcasts. It would be truer to suggest that many fringe dwellers can be found within the groupthink at the ABC. I feel sorry for people so twisted by partisan bile like you are. 4 Corners for instance is superior to anything the private sector has ever produced in Australia. Hell, there's been nothing since Sunday was axed that comes close to actual journalism in the private sphere (as far as TV goes). It's a real shame.
	Last edited by Sceptic-PK; 19th February 2013 at 12:58 AM.

19th February 2013, 01:00 AM	#83
Hallo Alfie Alexithymically superadjusted Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 10,005	Originally Posted by Sceptic-PK I feel sorry for people so twisted by partisan bile like you are. 4 Corners for instance is superior to anything the private sector has ever produced in Australia. Hell, there's been nothing since Sunday was axed that comes close to actual journalism in the private sphere (as far as TV goes). It's a real shame. So you can't find one single conservative presenter or producer either? I wasn't just talking TV either, you can go to radio national, the Drum and further. I guess I have confirmation of my claim. Cheers.
	__________________ Alfie is a real goose. Lionking http://forums.randi.org/member.php?u=14601 'Sex by surprise is a form of "rape" unknown outside of Sweden.' Bit Pattern http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...91#post8776491 'Show me a young conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains.' Francois Guizot

19th February 2013, 01:28 AM	#85
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,322	More from the ABC. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-1...0?WT.svl=news5 Quote: Suspected Mossad agent Ben Zygier was arrested by his own spymasters after they believed he told Australia's domestic intelligence agency about every aspect of his work with the Israelis, sources say. The ABC's Foreign Correspondent program understands that Zygier met with ASIO officers in Australia and gave comprehensive detail about a number of Mossad operations, including plans for a top-secret mission in Italy that had been years in the making.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

19th February 2013, 01:43 AM	#86
Hallo Alfie Alexithymically superadjusted Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 10,005	Originally Posted by Sceptic-PK I don't look at people through the binary lense you obviously do. I couldn't tell you, for instance, about Tony Jones' political leaning. Then you have never seen him interview anyone. Originally Posted by Sceptic-PK Balance is about reporting the facts, not some silly notion of equalisation between "liberal and conservative" viewpoints. No. Balance is about reporting the facts as seen by one side and the facts on the other. eg. (and I use this only as an example) Gay marriage, what are both sides of the argument? Are they both portrayed, reported and given equal time. If not they are not balanced. If they are only reporting the facts as seen from one side, they are not balanced. The ABC as our national carrier has an obligation within its charter to be balanced. On this score it leaves a lot to be desired.
	__________________ Alfie is a real goose. Lionking http://forums.randi.org/member.php?u=14601 'Sex by surprise is a form of "rape" unknown outside of Sweden.' Bit Pattern http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...91#post8776491 'Show me a young conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains.' Francois Guizot

19th February 2013, 01:07 AM	#84
Sceptic-PK Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 2,402	Originally Posted by Hallo Alfie So you can't find one single conservative presenter or producer either? I don't look at people through the binary lense you obviously do. I couldn't tell you, for instance, about Tony Jones' political leaning. Balance is about reporting the facts, not some silly notion of equalisation between "liberal and conservative" viewpoints.

19th February 2013, 01:45 AM	#87
Hallo Alfie Alexithymically superadjusted Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 10,005	Originally Posted by a_unique_person More from the ABC. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-1...0?WT.svl=news5 Post #69 remains outstanding AUP. I assume now you were lying as you have provided zero evidence to support your claims.
	__________________ Alfie is a real goose. Lionking http://forums.randi.org/member.php?u=14601 'Sex by surprise is a form of "rape" unknown outside of Sweden.' Bit Pattern http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...91#post8776491 'Show me a young conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains.' Francois Guizot

19th February 2013, 02:23 AM	#88
Wildy Adelaidean Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia, not that you'll read the "location" field. Posts: 9,921	Originally Posted by Hallo Alfie Yet you do not deny the allegation I make. Because at present it's a baseless one, since you've provided no evidence for it. Quote: This aside - and to wander even further off topic - your statement on 'parroting tripe' is untrue and you know it. Apart from all the posts of yours that are basically a link to a News Ltd site and a glib comment like "worst PM ever". Quote: Unlike the ABCs article above, I often provide a number of sources (each side, as it were) and show the facts. Yes, you show The Australian's side and The Daily Telegraph's. Quote: In other instances, opinions (which is what you are talking about) are outlined as such. As a consequence all sorts of nonsense passes as journalism - even worse when you consider it comes from our national broadcaster, which is supposed to be unbiased. This coming from the man who basically linked to every known article that News Ltd wrote on the AWU scandal. Quote: Opinion and facts are different. Yes. Yes they are. For example: "The ABC has an anti-Israel bias" is an opinion. "The ABC is our national broadcaster" is a fact. Quote: Closer to topic: The ABC has bedded innuendo, (presumably) rumours and opinion as fact in their article above. Such as? Quote: Did you know that the ABC does not employ fact checkers? Evidence?
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19th February 2013, 04:18 PM	#89
Matthew Ellard Muse Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 916	I wonder if his wife must have visited him in gaol just after he got arrested? I'm simply saying the dates are a bit odd and need further scrutiny. Was he in detention for more than 9 months? (December 2010) Four days before he was found dead, his wife gave birth to their second daughter Prisoner X was isolated from the rest of the prison population, but he was allowed visits from his lawyers (February 2010) Senator Carr is also asking Israel for some answers over Mr Zygier's arrest by Israeli authorities in February 2010
Matthew Ellard Muse Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 916

21st February 2013, 04:26 AM	#90
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,322	Quote: When asked what he thought Zygier must have done to be locked up in Israel's highest security cell, Mr Ben-David said: "I think Zygier divulged very sensitive information to a foreign element. "They say he spoke to a journalist and he spoke about the people he worked with and how they work and methods of work and all kinds of operations that are being conducted. "It is quite clear I think for the Israeli agencies that Zygier was not acting out of malice. "There was no motive of greed, no ideology. I don't know if he was trying just to boast but he did something very serious and when he was jailed they weren't sure how to treat him. "It was clear that he is not a criminal but still he did something very wrong. That's why they negotiated a plea bargain with him. "He was charged with divulging information, critical information to a foreign element that was not supposed to be exposed to that kind of information." http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-2...8?WT.svl=news4
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

21st February 2013, 04:45 AM	#91
Hallo Alfie Alexithymically superadjusted Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 10,005	Point?
	__________________ Alfie is a real goose. Lionking http://forums.randi.org/member.php?u=14601 'Sex by surprise is a form of "rape" unknown outside of Sweden.' Bit Pattern http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...91#post8776491 'Show me a young conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains.' Francois Guizot

21st February 2013, 04:49 AM	#92
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,510	I wonder how many other people Israel has "disappeared." Of course, this is a perfectly normal thing for any democratic nation to do, and to say otherwise would be anti-Semitic.
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

21st February 2013, 04:53 AM	#93
Doctor Evil Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Back home Posts: 1,966	Originally Posted by Cleon I wonder how many other people Israel has "disappeared." Of course, this is a perfectly normal thing for any democratic nation to do, and to say otherwise would be anti-Semitic. Can you define precisely what you mean by "disappeared", and how it is relevant to this case? Can I also infer that your country would never arrest spies and keep the fact that it holds them from the press?
	__________________ "ut biberent, quando esse nollent " (if they will not eat, then they will drink) -- Publius Claudius Pulcher "In this universe, effect follows cause. I've complained about it but ... " -- House

21st February 2013, 05:15 AM	#94
Eddie Dane Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,416	Killing someone in special high security custody would be a extraordinarily stupid way to go about it. Even if they made it look like a suicide. OTOH, it appears to me that if Mr X had not ended up in a high-security cell in Israel for divulging state secrets, he would have ended up in an Australian high-security cell for spying for a foreign government. And in that situation he could have been a huge embarrassment for the Israelis, and causing an even bigger stink. If MrX was involved in procuring Australian passports, for use by Mossad agents, it would be a major PR disaster in it's own right. Completely innocent Australians might have ended up on the radar of various secret services. I would be rather unnerved by the thought that the Iranians were looking for me because my passport was used in some Mossad operation, as happened after the assassination case in Dubai recently. How was this supposed to have gone? He just applied for passports in different names in Australia? That doesn't sound very refined, and rather sounds like something you could have done by common criminals for some cash. And am I the only one who thinks that Mr X sounds a bit like a hapless wannabe spy who couldn't manage, couldn't keep quiet, and naively boasted about his work as a spy? Is Mossad this desperate for foreign personnel?

21st February 2013, 05:25 AM	#95
angrysoba Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 8,509	Originally Posted by Eddie Dane And am I the only one who thinks that Mr X sounds a bit like a hapless wannabe spy who couldn't manage, couldn't keep quiet, and naively boasted about his work as a spy? You may be. He was a real spy wasn't he? If he wasn't then that would make his incarceration and demise seem even more troubling.

21st February 2013, 05:32 AM	#96
trustbutverify Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,078	Originally Posted by Cleon I wonder how many other people Israel has "disappeared." Of course, this is a perfectly normal thing for any democratic nation to do, and to say otherwise would be anti-Semitic. Didn't know you BDS one-staters considered the Zionist entity to be a "democratic nation". Obviously, the Zio-pigs faked his suicide to prevent all of their passport crimes from getting out. And to harvest his organs.

21st February 2013, 05:57 AM	#97
Eddie Dane Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,416	Originally Posted by angrysoba You may be. He was a real spy wasn't he? If he wasn't then that would make his incarceration and demise seem even more troubling. If you spy, you're a real spy by definition. that doesn't make you good spy or remarkably stress-resistant. Hell, someone recruited Mata Hari as a spy. If you look past the romantic re-telling of her story, she was actually a clueless ex-stripper with no clue of what she was doing. Promptly caught and executed. And who was that Israeli spy from the eighties? Pollard? Guy freaked out so badly when he found out the FBI was tailing him, that he got in his car and drove himself + FBI-tail to the Israeli embassy and demanded to be let in! I'm sure people join the army, mercenary groups, street-gangs and the Wall Mart greeter team, and later curse themselves for making that particular carreer choice.

21st February 2013, 03:53 PM	#98
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 16,105	Originally Posted by a_unique_person When Zygier had become an Israeli citizen, he had also retained his Australian citizenship. This allowed him to travel on Australian or Israeli passports. It also allowed him to obtain passports from Australia for use by Mossad. Mossad would have required that he retain dual citizenship so he could obtain the passports. So he is in effect, betraying Australia, because he is still a citizen of Australia. You're making a lot of statements here that have no basis. How would retaining Australian citizenship allow him to obtain Australian passports other than his own? How can you possibly feel qualified to make assertions about what Mossad would or would not require of an employee? In what way do you feel he "betrayed" Australia? Originally Posted by a_unique_person What this could mean is that ASIO had already worked out what was going on, because he had asked for several passports in different names, which you would expect to raise some alerts. Are you stating that he asked for passports in different names, or are you speculating? Is the Australian system different in that a citizen would be allowed to ask for passports in different names? In the US you can only get one in your own name. Originally Posted by a_unique_person So ASIO was on to him, and we don't know what they planned to do about this, or expected of him. Mossad then found out that he had been compromised by ASIO, so he is now a traitor to Israel as well. Le Carre couldn't have thought up better double bind. His loyalty to two countries makes him a traitor to both, and winds up with his death. How does being compromised make him a traitor to Israel?
	__________________ Surely Israel is the party to blame? -a_unique_person I do have Mycroft on ignore, he is pretty much the Matt Giwer of your side. -a_unique_person Palestinian Refugees

21st February 2013, 04:21 PM	#99
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 26,728	Originally Posted by Doctor Evil Explanation to whom? The family? The Israeli public? You? The civilized world. Why have they chosen to flout the rule of law like this? Whatever crime the guy may or may not have committed doesn't justify this treatment.
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons

21st February 2013, 05:24 PM	#100
trustbutverify Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,078	Which nations, specifically, comprise the "civilized world'?

22nd February 2013, 04:06 AM	#101
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,322	Originally Posted by Eddie Dane If MrX was involved in procuring Australian passports, for use by Mossad agents, it would be a major PR disaster in it's own right. Completely innocent Australians might have ended up on the radar of various secret services. I would be rather unnerved by the thought that the Iranians were looking for me because my passport was used in some Mossad operation, as happened after the assassination case in Dubai recently. How was this supposed to have gone? He just applied for passports in different names in Australia? That doesn't sound very refined, and rather sounds like something you could have done by common criminals for some cash. Errrm, if you actually read the links, it is all explained. Technically, an Australian can apply for a new passport every time they change their name, but this can't be done more than once a year. So he changed his name several times, and applied for a new passport each time. He did this regularly enough to trigger some internal alarms.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

22nd February 2013, 04:18 AM	#102
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,322	A suicide proof cell. I thought he must have used some sort of brilliant ingenuity to kill himself. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/20/wo...-xs-death.html Quote: JERUSALEM — The man known as Prisoner X was found dead at 8:19 p.m. on Dec. 15, 2010, hanging by his neck in the shower of his cell. The noose was fashioned from a wet bedsheet, rolled and tied to the window bars. There was a hint of a sedative in his stomach and a wound on his left hand, but neither contributed to his demise, which was caused by asphyxiation. Looks like the most obvious you it could be done to me. Why are there bars you can tie a rope to in a suicide proof cell? Quote: http://www.timesofisrael.com/zygier-...ers-found-him/ ‘Zygier hung dead for an hour before jailers found him’Prison guards reportedly fell asleep at the monitors and didn’t notice their charge had committed suicide They all fall asleep, just when he happens to want to suicide, in a suicide proof cell. This is beyond Le Carre and is getting bizarre.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

22nd February 2013, 04:24 AM	#103
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,322	Quote: Speculation about who knew what, and when, has been rife since the sensational revelation that Prisoner X was Mr Zygier. Much of the media reporting has said that ASIO not only informed the Australian mission in Tel Aviv of Mr Zygier's detention but interrogated him before he was detained. Advertisement But a well-placed source familiar with the case said Israeli intelligence - understood to be its internal security service, Shin Bet - had in fact tipped off Australian officials first. And this week, Israel's Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, issued a statement saying ''the late Mr Zygier had no contact with the Australian security services'', a view backed by Attorney-General Mark Dreyfus. ''The Israeli Prime Minister has issued a statement noting that Mr Zygier had no contact with Australian security agencies and explaining that there is excellent co-operation, full co-ordination and complete transparency between the government of Israel and the government of Australia,'' his spokesman said. Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/national/is...#ixzz2Ld77gF1h And now completely contradictory information on (a) if he ever did even talk to ASIO, and (b), when the Australian Government knew what about his problems.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

22nd February 2013, 04:36 AM	#104
Eddie Dane Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,416	Originally Posted by a_unique_person Errrm, if you actually read the links, it is all explained. Technically, an Australian can apply for a new passport every time they change their name, but this can't be done more than once a year. So he changed his name several times, and applied for a new passport each time. He did this regularly enough to trigger some internal alarms. I had not read that. Thanks for the explanation. Doesn't sound like something one can do for an extended period without setting off alarms. It would have made a lot more sense if they'd just paid Australians to acquire passports and not use the same person to get more than one or two documents. Unless Australia has no stupid young adults, druggies, people with debts etc.

22nd February 2013, 04:41 AM	#105
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,322	Originally Posted by Eddie Dane I had not read that. Thanks for the explanation. Doesn't sound like something one can do for an extended period without setting off alarms. It would have made a lot more sense if they'd just paid Australians to acquire passports and not use the same person to get more than one or two documents. Unless Australia has no stupid young adults, druggies, people with debts etc. I think that would be even more risky. What they did in New Zealand was try to claim the identity of a severely disabled man. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossad
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

24th March 2013, 03:30 PM	#106
Hallo Alfie Alexithymically superadjusted Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 10,005	To the OP. The answer might be found in these: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news...-1226605062114 http://www.theage.com.au/national/zy...324-2gocs.html http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/nat...-1226605081650 Quote: MELBOURNE-born former Mossad agent Ben Zygier was outfoxed trying to turn a Hezbollah man into a double agent, unwittingly becoming one himself. According to media reports, Zygier - known popularly as Prisoner X - handed over the names of two valuable informants in Lebanon as a way to curry favour with Israel's arch-enemy Hezbollah. That is the reason why he became a top-secret inmate in an Israeli jail where he took his own life. No conspiracy, no underhanded Jewish operation, no murder. Far more likely and tragically, he was just a poor spy who made a stupid mistake and decided to end his life rather than spend a decade in prison.
	__________________ Alfie is a real goose. Lionking http://forums.randi.org/member.php?u=14601 'Sex by surprise is a form of "rape" unknown outside of Sweden.' Bit Pattern http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...91#post8776491 'Show me a young conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains.' Francois Guizot Last edited by Hallo Alfie; 24th March 2013 at 03:45 PM.

24th March 2013, 06:03 PM	#107
trustbutverify Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,078	Originally Posted by Hallo Alfie No conspiracy, no underhanded Jewish operation, no murder. Far more likely and tragically, he was just a poor spy who made a stupid mistake and decided to end his life rather than spend a decade in prison. Have you cleared this with the idiots who believe Bush brought down the towers and Obama gave Chavez cancer?

24th March 2013, 09:11 PM	#108
Hallo Alfie Alexithymically superadjusted Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 10,005	Originally Posted by trustbutverify Have you cleared this with the idiots who believe Bush brought down the towers and Obama gave Chavez cancer? I suspect someone will be along soon to explain why those reports are wrong.
	__________________ Alfie is a real goose. Lionking http://forums.randi.org/member.php?u=14601 'Sex by surprise is a form of "rape" unknown outside of Sweden.' Bit Pattern http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...91#post8776491 'Show me a young conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains.' Francois Guizot

25th March 2013, 03:00 AM	#109
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,322	From "The Age" today. http://www.theage.com.au/national/th...324-2god9.html Quote: Under intense questioning from the Shin Bet, he broke down and admitted that sometime in 2008, before he took his leave of absence and moved to Australia, he had flown to eastern Europe to meet a man he knew to have close links with Hezbollah, with the intention of turning that person into a double agent. Instead, the man reported the recruitment attempt to Beirut, and himself began playing the same game as Zygier, except in reverse. Without Zygier’s knowledge, the man was reporting every detail of his contact with Zygier back to the Hezbollah leadership in Beirut. Israeli officials believe even Hassan Nasrallah himself was being kept informed. The contact between Zygier and the man went on for months. When the man asked Zygier for proof he was a real Mossad agent, Zygier readily complied and began supplying him with real intelligence from Tel Aviv, including the names of Ziad al-Homsi and Mustafa Ali Awadeh, the Mossad’s two top informants in Lebanon. Israeli officials with access to the probe say that when Zygier was arrested, he was also found carrying a compact disc with additional classified information from the Tzomet department, which they believe he was also preparing to hand over to the other side. At a meeting in Tel Aviv this month, a black limousine with darkened windows drove into a public car park, bringing a reporter to a meeting with an Israeli government official. ‘‘Zygier wanted to achieve something that he didn’t end up getting,’’ said the official, who is familiar with the investigation. ‘‘And then he ended up on a precipitous path. He crossed paths with someone who was much more professional than he was.’’ At some point, he says, Zygier crossed a red line and went to the dark side. His fate, the official points out, was largely a matter of psychology. Israeli informants have certainly changed sides in the past. But a regular Mossad employee has never done what Zygier did. It is a bitter defeat for the Mossad, but for Hezbollah it is one of the rare instances in which an Arab intelligence service prevailed over its Jewish counterpart. Zygier’s actions are also a heavy blow to the Mossad because they raise doubts as to the integrity of the agency’s own people – and the manner in which it recruits employees. Lior Brand, one of Zygier’s friends from Kibbutz Gazit, believes Zygier simply wasn’t up to the task. The lies, the silence and the loneliness were too much for him, says Brand, adding the Mossad ‘‘made a big mistake’’ by recruiting him. He says he will never forgive it for recruiting the wrong person. Negotiations over Zygier’s sentence were conducted behind the scenes in December 2010. The Mossad and Shin Bet wanted to set an example and demanded he spend at least 10 years in prison. Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/national/th...#ixzz2OXnMkB62
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

25th March 2013, 03:21 AM	#110
Hallo Alfie Alexithymically superadjusted Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 10,005	Your point being? Links have been provided already outlining this. Have you something to add?
	__________________ Alfie is a real goose. Lionking http://forums.randi.org/member.php?u=14601 'Sex by surprise is a form of "rape" unknown outside of Sweden.' Bit Pattern http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...91#post8776491 'Show me a young conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains.' Francois Guizot

25th March 2013, 04:21 AM	#111
Eddie Dane Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,416	It's a very interesting -and tragic- story. Looks like this guy was in way over his head. Some thing are weird about it though. X knew the names oh high-level informants? Why? You'd think that a spy organisation was much more compartmentalised. Also, Hezbollah asking for information sounds like a grand occasion to feed them a confusing mix of correct and incorrect information. And this dude didn't report what he was doing to his handlers?

25th March 2013, 02:27 PM	#112
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,322	Originally Posted by Eddie Dane It's a very interesting -and tragic- story. Looks like this guy was in way over his head. Some thing are weird about it though. X knew the names oh high-level informants? Why? You'd think that a spy organisation was much more compartmentalised. Also, Hezbollah asking for information sounds like a grand occasion to feed them a confusing mix of correct and incorrect information. And this dude didn't report what he was doing to his handlers? Like I said, it's straight out of Le Carre novel. If he had written this story, people would have said the plot was unrealistic.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

26th March 2013, 09:55 PM	#114
trustbutverify Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,078	Originally Posted by Eddie Dane It's a very interesting -and tragic- story. Looks like this guy was in way over his head. Some thing are weird about it though. X knew the names oh high-level informants? Why? You'd think that a spy organisation was much more compartmentalised. Also, Hezbollah asking for information sounds like a grand occasion to feed them a confusing mix of correct and incorrect information. And this dude didn't report what he was doing to his handlers? I was thinking exactly the same thing. Had a sound agent found himself in that situation, the benefits could have been profound. Tragic all the way around.

27th March 2013, 02:47 AM	#115
Eddie Dane Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,416	Originally Posted by trustbutverify I was thinking exactly the same thing. Had a sound agent found himself in that situation, the benefits could have been profound. Tragic all the way around. Well, not all the way around. Hezbollah got some mileage out of it.