Fiscal Cliff - Page 4

The_Animus · 14th December 2012, 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by NewtonTrino

People need to create value if they want to get paid. Most jobs where people get paid those kinds of low wages are fairly unskilled. Unskilled labor isn't the place you want to be if you want to live a decent life so get some education and learn how to create value.

Except the concept that everyone can do that is a lie. There cannot be rich without poor and not everyone can be a doctor or a lawyer or a small business owner because then who would do all the work that still needs to be done for those professions to exist today? If everyone gets an education that education becomes worthless.

NewtonTrino · 15th December 2012, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by The_Animus

Except the concept that everyone can do that is a lie. There cannot be rich without poor and not everyone can be a doctor or a lawyer or a small business owner because then who would do all the work that still needs to be done for those professions to exist today? If everyone gets an education that education becomes worthless.

This is just total BS. In fact it's already happened. The standard of living in the USA today is vastly better than any group of people in the history of mankind. A rising tide floats all boats. People are a bunch of whiners. The simple fact is that there is a huge amount of opportunity out there to make a living. Ambition, drive and hard work get results in our society.

The simple fact is that most people poorly manage their lives and don't take advantage of the vast opportunity available to them. In a lot of cases this is driven by negative cultural influences.

You claim that not everyone can be rich. I'm saying that compared to the base level of human condition that people in western society already are rich.
The biggest health problem facing the poor is obesity.

In fact, it seems to me that what you are really looking for is equivalence in OUTCOME. That will never happen, there are always going to be rich and poor when looked at relative to one another. But looking at things relatively is pointless, what we should really care about is what the bottom looks like. Unfortunately we are working very hard as a country to create a permanent underclass who are dependent on entitlements. Giving people unlimited handouts harms them in the long term and create a dependency trap.

Anyway you are full of it. Capitalism has already worked. We live in a world of plenty. Wake up and smell the roses.

Ziggurat · 15th December 2012, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by The_Animus

Except the concept that everyone can do that is a lie. There cannot be rich without poor and not everyone can be a doctor or a lawyer or a small business owner because then who would do all the work that still needs to be done for those professions to exist today? If everyone gets an education that education becomes worthless.

If everyone gets an education then the comparative advantage of that education is reduced. But so what? Everyone's productivity is still increased by increasing their skills. The top salaries may be reduced, but I thought that's what progressives wanted.

No, the problem with universal higher education is not that everyone can't be a lawyer or doctor, the problem is that not everyone is smart enough to benefit from that education enough to justify its costs. But even people who aren't cut out for college can still pick up marketable skills. A trained auto mechanic, plumber, or carpenter can make a good living.

deaman · 15th December 2012, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by The_Animus

If everyone gets an education that education becomes worthless.

This strikes me as one of the strangest, silliest statements I have ever read at JREF.

If everyone is educated, then everyone is educated, period. The worth of any education is the "value", each individual places, upon that education.

Tsukasa Buddha · 15th December 2012, 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by NewtonTrino

I'm sorry but $150k, $175k or $250k simply aren't very high incomes in the scheme of things. Those incomes put you in the upper middle class but you certainly aren't "the wealthy".

In the scheme of things, they are very high. Especially since the median is around $50K and the chart is heavily skewed left.

Quote:

People need to create value if they want to get paid. Most jobs where people get paid those kinds of low wages are fairly unskilled. Unskilled labor isn't the place you want to be if you want to live a decent life so get some education and learn how to create value.

I work at a training organisation. Training costs time and money and a great deal of planning that many people can't afford without government assistance. And even with all that people can still fall through the cracks.

Tsukasa Buddha · 15th December 2012, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by deaman

This strikes me as one of the strangest, silliest statements I have ever read at JREF.

If everyone is educated, then everyone is educated, period. The worth of any education is the "value", each individual places, upon that education.

But that's an even sillier statement. Over-qualified, low-skill workers are a recognised phenomena.

Of course, then we have to look at more than just raw numbers and at what particular fields they studied in.

The_Animus · 15th December 2012, 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by NewtonTrino

This is just total BS. In fact it's already happened. The standard of living in the USA today is vastly better than any group of people in the history of mankind. A rising tide floats all boats.

You and others always say something to the effect of how everyone should just get more education, work harder, and start their own business or get a better job. I responded by saying that such a thing is a lie because if everyone is a doctor or a small business owner then no one is a Janitor or a cashier or a housekeeper or a burger flipper. And you need those people for those hospitals and stores and food places to operate. So please don't build a strawman and start talking about overall standard of living.

Quote:

You claim that not everyone can be rich. I'm saying that compared to the base level of human condition that people in western society already are rich.

That isn't what you were saying in what I quoted you on. Move the goalposts more please.

Quote:

In fact, it seems to me that what you are really looking for is equivalence in OUTCOME. That will never happen, there are always going to be rich and poor when looked at relative to one another.

No that isn't what I'm saying. Keep that straw coming though. I'm perfectly fine with there being a difference in wealth. I'm not fine with it being so extreme to the point of having many full time workers barely making ends meet while others live like kings. 400 people should not own more wealth than 50% of the population combined. That isn't good for society or the economy.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

If everyone gets an education then the comparative advantage of that education is reduced. But so what? Everyone's productivity is still increased by increasing their skills. The top salaries may be reduced, but I thought that's what progressives wanted.

Is that what you think would happen? I think that some would still get coveted high paying positions while others would have lots of student loan debt and end up with the same job distribution and income distribution as now. In fact that's what we see now. The thing is that we don't need everyone to be a doctor, and we do need people to be janitors and housekeepers and burger flippers because the doctors and lawyers don't want to do that. So we segment society and that is totally fine. Again my complaint isn't against different wealth, it's in the extreme range and that we accept that we need low skill jobs but don't want to pay people decently to do that work.

Originally Posted by deaman

This strikes me as one of the strangest, silliest statements I have ever read at JREF.

If everyone is educated, then everyone is educated, period. The worth of any education is the "value", each individual places, upon that education.

It should have been obvious I was referring to education in relation to jobs and the economy. Not education for education. Taking posts out of context is what is silly.

Ambrosia · 15th December 2012, 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by deaman

This strikes me as one of the strangest, silliest statements I have ever read at JREF.

If everyone is educated, then everyone is educated, period. The worth of any education is the "value", each individual places, upon that education.

Actually in the UK the previous Labour Government under Blair put huge emphasis on university education. their policy worked and lots more people went and got themselves a degree of one sort or another, taking on debt to achieve this in the process usually. Safe in the belief that a nice well paid job would be waiting for them once they graduated.

In years gone by a degree, any degree was proof to prospective employers that you worked hard at something and were educated in your chosen field.

When everyone has a degree, employers started looking for people that had good grades, we now have a large amount of low paid unskilled workers who are very overqualified and who have a lot of debt to worry about with limited job prospects.

deaman · 15th December 2012, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by Ambrosia

Actually in the UK the previous Labour Government under Blair put huge emphasis on university education. their policy worked and lots more people went and got themselves a degree of one sort or another, taking on debt to achieve this in the process usually. Safe in the belief that a nice well paid job would be waiting for them once they graduated.

In years gone by a degree, any degree was proof to prospective employers that you worked hard at something and were educated in your chosen field.

When everyone has a degree, employers started looking for people that had good grades, we now have a large amount of low paid unskilled workers who are very overqualified and who have a lot of debt to worry about with limited job prospects.

Anybody with the drive and persistence, passion and determination, as well as a library card, can get an education.

You'd simply have to be smart enough about how not to go into debt, but that is a personal decision.

NewtonTrino · 15th December 2012, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by deaman

Anybody with the drive and persistence, passion and determination, as well as a library card, can get an education.

You'd simply have to be smart enough about how not to go into debt, but that is a personal decision.

Bingo. People don't think long term, don't plan and can't delay gratification.

Of course if you look at the class of people who are "successful" you will find that almost all of them work hard, plan for the future and delay gratification in pursuit of their goals.

NewtonTrino · 15th December 2012, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha

In the scheme of things, they are very high. Especially since the median is around $50K and the chart is heavily skewed left.

The lifestyle of someone making $150k is very similar to someone making $50k in the areas that matter. The truly wealthy have lifestyles that are light years beyond what someone making $250k a year can afford. Think private jet vs owning a nice car. $150 or $250k a year is solidly upper middle class. In a lot of places that's a school teacher and a fire fighter who have been working for a while. Hell around here many of the cops make $100k+ a year.

Quote:

I work at a training organisation. Training costs time and money and a great deal of planning that many people can't afford without government assistance. And even with all that people can still fall through the cracks.

I have no issue with the government assisting people in training or education.

Tsukasa Buddha · 15th December 2012, 08:41 PM

Originally Posted by deaman

Anybody with the drive and persistence, passion and determination, as well as a library card, can get an education.

You forgot money, or little enough money to get lots of aid. And time; many working people have schedules that conflict with classes.

Quote:

You'd simply have to be smart enough about how not to go into debt, but that is a personal decision.

Since university tuitions have exploded this is much, much more difficult than you make it out to be.

Tsukasa Buddha · 15th December 2012, 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by NewtonTrino

The lifestyle of someone making $150k is very similar to someone making $50k in the areas that matter. The truly wealthy have lifestyles that are light years beyond what someone making $250k a year can afford. Think private jet vs owning a nice car. $150 or $250k a year is solidly upper middle class. In a lot of places that's a school teacher and a fire fighter who have been working for a while. Hell around here many of the cops make $100k+ a year.

Coincidentally:

Quote:

How much do you need to consider yourself “rich?” Americans say they would need an annual income of $150,000, according to a Gallup poll this week.

Linky.

I don't care about vague words like "upper middle class".

And given the decreasing marginal utility of income, I would expect $50K to $150K is quite important.

Quote:

People say money doesn't buy happiness. Except, according to a new study from Princeton University's Woodrow Wilson School, it sort of does — up to about $75,000 a year. The lower a person's annual income falls below that benchmark, the unhappier he or she feels. But no matter how much more than $75,000 people make, they don't report any greater degree of happiness.

Linky.

Quote:

I have no issue with the government assisting people in training or education.

You don't and I don't but these programs paradoxically get great cuts during these times.

14th December 2012, 08:20 PM	#121
The_Animus Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Western Wisconsin Posts: 1,215	Originally Posted by NewtonTrino People need to create value if they want to get paid. Most jobs where people get paid those kinds of low wages are fairly unskilled. Unskilled labor isn't the place you want to be if you want to live a decent life so get some education and learn how to create value. Except the concept that everyone can do that is a lie. There cannot be rich without poor and not everyone can be a doctor or a lawyer or a small business owner because then who would do all the work that still needs to be done for those professions to exist today? If everyone gets an education that education becomes worthless.
	__________________ Insults come when a person cannot think of an intelligent response.

15th December 2012, 11:49 AM	#123
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 26,180	Originally Posted by The_Animus Except the concept that everyone can do that is a lie. There cannot be rich without poor and not everyone can be a doctor or a lawyer or a small business owner because then who would do all the work that still needs to be done for those professions to exist today? If everyone gets an education that education becomes worthless. If everyone gets an education then the comparative advantage of that education is reduced. But so what? Everyone's productivity is still increased by increasing their skills. The top salaries may be reduced, but I thought that's what progressives wanted. No, the problem with universal higher education is not that everyone can't be a lawyer or doctor, the problem is that not everyone is smart enough to benefit from that education enough to justify its costs. But even people who aren't cut out for college can still pick up marketable skills. A trained auto mechanic, plumber, or carpenter can make a good living.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

15th December 2012, 02:57 PM	#124
deaman Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 2,729	Originally Posted by The_Animus If everyone gets an education that education becomes worthless. This strikes me as one of the strangest, silliest statements I have ever read at JREF. If everyone is educated, then everyone is educated, period. The worth of any education is the "value", each individual places, upon that education.
deaman Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 2,729

15th December 2012, 03:27 PM	#125
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 9,887	Originally Posted by NewtonTrino I'm sorry but $150k, $175k or $250k simply aren't very high incomes in the scheme of things. Those incomes put you in the upper middle class but you certainly aren't "the wealthy". In the scheme of things, they are very high. Especially since the median is around $50K and the chart is heavily skewed left. Quote: People need to create value if they want to get paid. Most jobs where people get paid those kinds of low wages are fairly unskilled. Unskilled labor isn't the place you want to be if you want to live a decent life so get some education and learn how to create value. I work at a training organisation. Training costs time and money and a great deal of planning that many people can't afford without government assistance. And even with all that people can still fall through the cracks.
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn

15th December 2012, 03:31 PM	#126
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 9,887	Originally Posted by deaman This strikes me as one of the strangest, silliest statements I have ever read at JREF. If everyone is educated, then everyone is educated, period. The worth of any education is the "value", each individual places, upon that education. But that's an even sillier statement. Over-qualified, low-skill workers are a recognised phenomena. Of course, then we have to look at more than just raw numbers and at what particular fields they studied in.
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn

15th December 2012, 10:30 AM	#122
NewtonTrino Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Bothell, WA Posts: 3,782	Originally Posted by The_Animus Except the concept that everyone can do that is a lie. There cannot be rich without poor and not everyone can be a doctor or a lawyer or a small business owner because then who would do all the work that still needs to be done for those professions to exist today? If everyone gets an education that education becomes worthless. This is just total BS. In fact it's already happened. The standard of living in the USA today is vastly better than any group of people in the history of mankind. A rising tide floats all boats. People are a bunch of whiners. The simple fact is that there is a huge amount of opportunity out there to make a living. Ambition, drive and hard work get results in our society. The simple fact is that most people poorly manage their lives and don't take advantage of the vast opportunity available to them. In a lot of cases this is driven by negative cultural influences. You claim that not everyone can be rich. I'm saying that compared to the base level of human condition that people in western society already are rich. The biggest health problem facing the poor is obesity. In fact, it seems to me that what you are really looking for is equivalence in OUTCOME. That will never happen, there are always going to be rich and poor when looked at relative to one another. But looking at things relatively is pointless, what we should really care about is what the bottom looks like. Unfortunately we are working very hard as a country to create a permanent underclass who are dependent on entitlements. Giving people unlimited handouts harms them in the long term and create a dependency trap. Anyway you are full of it. Capitalism has already worked. We live in a world of plenty. Wake up and smell the roses.

15th December 2012, 04:28 PM	#127
The_Animus Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Western Wisconsin Posts: 1,215	Originally Posted by NewtonTrino This is just total BS. In fact it's already happened. The standard of living in the USA today is vastly better than any group of people in the history of mankind. A rising tide floats all boats. You and others always say something to the effect of how everyone should just get more education, work harder, and start their own business or get a better job. I responded by saying that such a thing is a lie because if everyone is a doctor or a small business owner then no one is a Janitor or a cashier or a housekeeper or a burger flipper. And you need those people for those hospitals and stores and food places to operate. So please don't build a strawman and start talking about overall standard of living. Quote: You claim that not everyone can be rich. I'm saying that compared to the base level of human condition that people in western society already are rich. That isn't what you were saying in what I quoted you on. Move the goalposts more please. Quote: In fact, it seems to me that what you are really looking for is equivalence in OUTCOME. That will never happen, there are always going to be rich and poor when looked at relative to one another. No that isn't what I'm saying. Keep that straw coming though. I'm perfectly fine with there being a difference in wealth. I'm not fine with it being so extreme to the point of having many full time workers barely making ends meet while others live like kings. 400 people should not own more wealth than 50% of the population combined. That isn't good for society or the economy. Originally Posted by Ziggurat If everyone gets an education then the comparative advantage of that education is reduced. But so what? Everyone's productivity is still increased by increasing their skills. The top salaries may be reduced, but I thought that's what progressives wanted. Is that what you think would happen? I think that some would still get coveted high paying positions while others would have lots of student loan debt and end up with the same job distribution and income distribution as now. In fact that's what we see now. The thing is that we don't need everyone to be a doctor, and we do need people to be janitors and housekeepers and burger flippers because the doctors and lawyers don't want to do that. So we segment society and that is totally fine. Again my complaint isn't against different wealth, it's in the extreme range and that we accept that we need low skill jobs but don't want to pay people decently to do that work. Originally Posted by deaman This strikes me as one of the strangest, silliest statements I have ever read at JREF. If everyone is educated, then everyone is educated, period. The worth of any education is the "value", each individual places, upon that education. It should have been obvious I was referring to education in relation to jobs and the economy. Not education for education. Taking posts out of context is what is silly.
	__________________ Insults come when a person cannot think of an intelligent response. Last edited by The_Animus; 15th December 2012 at 04:32 PM.

15th December 2012, 06:34 PM	#128
Ambrosia Good of the Fods Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,738	Originally Posted by deaman This strikes me as one of the strangest, silliest statements I have ever read at JREF. If everyone is educated, then everyone is educated, period. The worth of any education is the "value", each individual places, upon that education. Actually in the UK the previous Labour Government under Blair put huge emphasis on university education. their policy worked and lots more people went and got themselves a degree of one sort or another, taking on debt to achieve this in the process usually. Safe in the belief that a nice well paid job would be waiting for them once they graduated. In years gone by a degree, any degree was proof to prospective employers that you worked hard at something and were educated in your chosen field. When everyone has a degree, employers started looking for people that had good grades, we now have a large amount of low paid unskilled workers who are very overqualified and who have a lot of debt to worry about with limited job prospects.

15th December 2012, 07:17 PM	#129
deaman Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 2,729	Originally Posted by Ambrosia Actually in the UK the previous Labour Government under Blair put huge emphasis on university education. their policy worked and lots more people went and got themselves a degree of one sort or another, taking on debt to achieve this in the process usually. Safe in the belief that a nice well paid job would be waiting for them once they graduated. In years gone by a degree, any degree was proof to prospective employers that you worked hard at something and were educated in your chosen field. When everyone has a degree, employers started looking for people that had good grades, we now have a large amount of low paid unskilled workers who are very overqualified and who have a lot of debt to worry about with limited job prospects. Anybody with the drive and persistence, passion and determination, as well as a library card, can get an education. You'd simply have to be smart enough about how not to go into debt, but that is a personal decision.
deaman Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 2,729

15th December 2012, 08:31 PM	#130
NewtonTrino Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Bothell, WA Posts: 3,782	Originally Posted by deaman Anybody with the drive and persistence, passion and determination, as well as a library card, can get an education. You'd simply have to be smart enough about how not to go into debt, but that is a personal decision. Bingo. People don't think long term, don't plan and can't delay gratification. Of course if you look at the class of people who are "successful" you will find that almost all of them work hard, plan for the future and delay gratification in pursuit of their goals.

15th December 2012, 08:34 PM	#131
NewtonTrino Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Bothell, WA Posts: 3,782	Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha In the scheme of things, they are very high. Especially since the median is around $50K and the chart is heavily skewed left. The lifestyle of someone making $150k is very similar to someone making $50k in the areas that matter. The truly wealthy have lifestyles that are light years beyond what someone making $250k a year can afford. Think private jet vs owning a nice car. $150 or $250k a year is solidly upper middle class. In a lot of places that's a school teacher and a fire fighter who have been working for a while. Hell around here many of the cops make $100k+ a year. Quote: I work at a training organisation. Training costs time and money and a great deal of planning that many people can't afford without government assistance. And even with all that people can still fall through the cracks. I have no issue with the government assisting people in training or education.
	Last edited by NewtonTrino; 15th December 2012 at 08:36 PM.

15th December 2012, 08:41 PM	#132
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 9,887	Originally Posted by deaman Anybody with the drive and persistence, passion and determination, as well as a library card, can get an education. You forgot money, or little enough money to get lots of aid. And time; many working people have schedules that conflict with classes. Quote: You'd simply have to be smart enough about how not to go into debt, but that is a personal decision. Since university tuitions have exploded this is much, much more difficult than you make it out to be.
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn

15th December 2012, 09:54 PM	#133
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 9,887	Originally Posted by NewtonTrino The lifestyle of someone making $150k is very similar to someone making $50k in the areas that matter. The truly wealthy have lifestyles that are light years beyond what someone making $250k a year can afford. Think private jet vs owning a nice car. $150 or $250k a year is solidly upper middle class. In a lot of places that's a school teacher and a fire fighter who have been working for a while. Hell around here many of the cops make $100k+ a year. Coincidentally: Quote: How much do you need to consider yourself “rich?” Americans say they would need an annual income of $150,000, according to a Gallup poll this week. Linky. I don't care about vague words like "upper middle class". And given the decreasing marginal utility of income, I would expect $50K to $150K is quite important. Quote: People say money doesn't buy happiness. Except, according to a new study from Princeton University's Woodrow Wilson School, it sort of does — up to about $75,000 a year. The lower a person's annual income falls below that benchmark, the unhappier he or she feels. But no matter how much more than $75,000 people make, they don't report any greater degree of happiness. Linky. Quote: I have no issue with the government assisting people in training or education. You don't and I don't but these programs paradoxically get great cuts during these times.
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn Last edited by Tsukasa Buddha; 15th December 2012 at 09:58 PM.