Left, Right - Which is which? - Page 4

psionl0 · 13th July 2012, 06:10 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

You know, somehow I knew you were going to say that

.

Happy to be of assistance.

Dave Rogers · 13th July 2012, 06:15 AM

Originally Posted by anglolawyer

As a matter of interest, would we be able to communicate with anti-matter aliens at all? Surely somewhere between the two bat phones the atoms (or bosons or whatever) conveying the information would be annihilated.

If we use electromagnetism there's no problem. In effect, the photon is its own antiparticle, so antimatter interacts with photons (and, by extension, the electromagnetic field) much the same as matter does (making appropriate allowance for opposite charge and suchlike). We could talk to antimatter beings by radio quite safely, though I wouldn't want them closer than a good few million light years for other reasons. As for a superluminal communications system, there's nothing in our current understanding of physics that makes such a thing possible, so it's not possible to answer the question.

Dave

Myriad · 13th July 2012, 06:30 AM

According to an idea popular among science fiction writers around the 1960s (but not borne out by physics), the anti-matter people would agree about left and right, but disagree about clockwise and counterclockwise, because they'd be experiencing time in reverse relative to us.

Dave Rogers · 13th July 2012, 06:43 AM

Originally Posted by Myriad

According to an idea popular among science fiction writers around the 1960s (but not borne out by physics), the anti-matter people would agree about left and right, but disagree about clockwise and counterclockwise, because they'd be experiencing time in reverse relative to us.

Then maybe we should play them some Led Zeppelin albums and see what they can hear.

Dave

anglolawyer · 13th July 2012, 07:03 AM

Originally Posted by sphenisc

Not at all. Imagine you've communicated as clearly as possible the meaning of "right" to a distant star system, as well as much about our science, culture and traditions. On one momentous day, at some isolated point in the vastness of space, a terran spaceship meets up with theirs. A member of each crew drifts across from each ship to conduct the first direct meeting between our civilisations. As our representative smiles and extends a hand in greeting, their representative extends their LEFT hand.... our guy would be well advised not to shake it.

[ Caveat : Most of my knowledge on physics comes from 2000AD Futureshocks. ]

So this thread could prove to be of considerable practical value.

Delvo · 13th July 2012, 07:35 AM

We're not in danger of having our friendly alien neighbors turn out to be antimatter. Not only do stars and planets have to be made entirely out of one form or the other because a mixture would never survive, but the same thing is also true of interstellar matter. So if there were antimatter aliens, they'd need to live on antimatter planets around antimatter stars in antimatter galaxies in antimatter galaxy clusters with peculiarly empty space separating them form normal matter galaxy clusters and lots of radiation coming from the past annihilations in that empty space that made it so empty. That's not what we see out there, so there are no antimatter objects.

anglolawyer · 13th July 2012, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by Delvo

We're not in danger of having our friendly alien neighbors turn out to be antimatter. Not only do stars and planets have to be made entirely out of one form or the other because a mixture would never survive, but the same thing is also true of interstellar matter. So if there were antimatter aliens, they'd need to live on antimatter planets around antimatter stars in antimatter galaxies in antimatter galaxy clusters with peculiarly empty space separating them form normal matter galaxy clusters and lots of radiation coming from the past annihilations in that empty space that made it so empty. That's not what we see out there, so there are no antimatter objects.

Cool. So this thread is solved then.

Madalch · 13th July 2012, 11:56 AM

Before you start explaining "left" and "right", how do you manage to explain all the other words? How do you learn the language of an alien?

DrDave · 13th July 2012, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Madalch

Before you start explaining "left" and "right", how do you manage to explain all the other words? How do you learn the language of an alien?

1. Start by counting out the primes in unary
2. ???
3. Profit

AvalonXQ · 13th July 2012, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by Madalch

Before you start explaining "left" and "right", how do you manage to explain all the other words? How do you learn the language of an alien?

Universal translator.

GlennB · 13th July 2012, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by Madalch

Before you start explaining "left" and "right", how do you manage to explain all the other words? How do you learn the language of an alien?

Intercept their TV broadcasts and surf their multi-lingual websites. Beats the hell out of that Rosetta Stone stuff.

bruto · 13th July 2012, 06:50 PM

I don't think the airplane is a very good example. IN this case assuming one knows even a little welsh and the person aboard knows even a little about numbers, one would only have to direct the pilot to observe one of a variety of gauges (we're assuming that if you know where the levers are you know the plane involved and can confirm what gauges it has). Tell him to look at a gauge that reads clockwise, note which way the numbers increase, and say that's clockwise, right rotation at the top. Anything that comes in left and right configurations on a plane will have the left on the left and the right on the right anyway, so chances are pretty good you can find a pair of gauges or controls and just read them.

Molinaro · 13th July 2012, 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by DrDave

Describe how to create a fax machine and fax them a picture of an arrow point left

And cross your fingers and hope they don't hold the picture upside down?

Brian-M · 13th July 2012, 10:57 PM

Originally Posted by Molinaro

Originally Posted by DrDave

Describe how to create a fax machine and fax them a picture of an arrow point left

And cross your fingers and hope they don't hold the picture upside down?

It's worse than that. Even if you indicate which direction is down (eg, a horizontal line under the arrow to represent the ground), they still couldn't be sure that the arrow on the fax is pointing left.

The reason being, how do you tell them which direction the scan signal is moving? Telling them it's moving left to right from top to bottom won't help unless they already know left from right.

If they just guess at it, their fax machine could produce mirror-images of the original. The same applies for television signals.

anglolawyer · 14th July 2012, 04:30 AM

Wait a minute. Send a fax? If you can send a fax you can send anything, so why not an email, with attachments? These will not be taken out of the fax machine upside down. Sending a fax should not be allowed. I bet our whole system will be totally swamped when aliens can start spamming it with faxes. I may go ex-directory.

DavidS · 16th July 2012, 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by Madalch

Before you start explaining "left" and "right", how do you manage to explain all the other words? How do you learn the language of an alien?

While that's surely a difficult question, it's one the OP presumes already addressed.

Soapy Sam · 16th July 2012, 11:54 AM

Even if you could give them a thousand examples, there is no guarantee even highly intelligent entities could understand the concept. If they were rotationally symmetrical creatures for example, the very idea of handedness might be just too alien.

My wife is bilaterally symmetrical and she hasn't grasped it yet.

AvalonXQ · 16th July 2012, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Soapy Sam

Even if you could give them a thousand examples, there is no guarantee even highly intelligent entities could understand the concept. If they were rotationally symmetrical creatures for example, the very idea of handedness might be just too alien.

That's true. I just fine it interesting that, even knowing that I was dealing with something that thinks like a human and even has its own words for "left" and "right," there's no way to reliably specify handedness without a common object of visual reference or the use of weak force asymmetry.

Delvo · 16th July 2012, 02:17 PM

Radial symmetry wouldn't mean they had no concept of left & right or couldn't understand it if we tried to show them. It's inherently built in to the basics of movement, so any critter that moves would have noticed it. Gravity establishes one universal axis (up/down), and as soon as you're moving, that creates the second (forward/backward). Left/right is simply the other one that remains: the one in which you could deviate from your old forward to make your new forward different. (And a brain that can build advanced communications technology isn't going to be found in a species that doesn't move.)

AvalonXQ · 16th July 2012, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by Delvo

Radial symmetry wouldn't mean they had no concept of left & right or couldn't understand it if we tried to show them. It's inherently built in to the basics of movement, so any critter that moves would have noticed it. Gravity establishes one universal axis (up/down), and as soon as you're moving, that creates the second (forward/backward). Left/right is simply the other one that remains: the one in which you could deviate from your old forward to make your new forward different.

If the species is aquatic, they may not have a universal concept of "up" and "down" either.
For example, they may simply have a notion of "near" and "far", plus a notion of "me" and "you". They may use these two points to normally communicate objects -- so they may have a words that mean "on the other side of you (relative to me)", "on the other side of me (relative to you)," "between us and closer to me", "between us and closer to you", and "distant from both of us." It may be that objects "distant from both of us" are usually referred to using the cardinal directions or some other notable reference point.

Quote:

(And a brain that can build advanced communications technology isn't going to be found in a species that doesn't move.)

I don't see why not. What would prevent a naturally sessile species from learning such things?

kalen · 16th July 2012, 02:57 PM

Since EM waves can be circularly polarized, just send the following message using a left-circularly (say) radio wave:

"Dear Mr. Alien: This message is sent using left-circularly polarized EM waves. We await your reply in 200 years. Regards, The Earth."

Roboramma · 16th July 2012, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

I don't see why not. What would prevent a naturally sessile species from learning such things?

The problem isn't learning, the problem is the evolution of an advanced nervous system.

AvalonXQ · 16th July 2012, 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by Roboramma

The problem isn't learning, the problem is the evolution of an advanced nervous system.

Okay, so consider a sessile animal that lives in a relatively volatile environment -- there are often strong and unpredictable currents, so being permanently rooted to the spot is a good survival strategy. In fact, the sessiles may have previously been squid-like before some tentacles became permanent clingers as a developmental adaptation.

It primarily snags passing fish with tentacles, and so develops better eyes and a fast nervous system in order to perceive fish from further away that will be swept in by the fast currents. It also develops good hearing/smell in order to better predict conditions favorable for releasing its gametes, either to avoid or to use the strong current.

Some of the sessiles that land in relatively close proximity develop an advantage by being able to communicate their environment together. Those that can communicate quickly and accurately are better able to snag fish and predict favorable breeding conditions. More sophisticated communication and more accurate prediction of the volatile environment promotes additional brain growth, and development in social skills, communication, and environmental awareness. Sensory organs also get better.

Is there any reason that these creatures couldn't eventually become intelligent, with tool use to follow relatively late in development -- after they already have sophisticated reasoning and communication capabilities?

Dave Rogers · 17th July 2012, 01:22 AM

Originally Posted by kalen

Since EM waves can be circularly polarized, just send the following message using a left-circularly (say) radio wave:

"Dear Mr. Alien: This message is sent using left-circularly polarized EM waves. We await your reply in 200 years. Regards, The Earth."

Fine, as long as it propagates through an entirely isotropic medium. If there's any difference between the propagation constants for the two plane polarisations, though, the polarisation state will change and won't be known when the signal arrives. A quick google search suggests that interstellar birefringence is known and studied, and it doesn't take much to scramble a polarisation state; if there's enough to be observed, it's enough to transform the state by an unknown amount.

Dave

GlennB · 17th July 2012, 01:36 AM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

If the species is aquatic, they may not have a universal concept of "up" and "down" either.

'Up' would be where lighter-than-water things go when released. Shark farts, for example. It's also where the water has a boundary with atmosphere (or something non-aquatic, anyway). 'Down' is the other way.

AvalonXQ · 17th July 2012, 07:35 AM

Originally Posted by GlennB

'Up' would be where lighter-than-water things go when released. Shark farts, for example. It's also where the water has a boundary with atmosphere (or something non-aquatic, anyway). 'Down' is the other way.

If they're not near the surface and their rock environment isn't precisely flat, they may not have an absolute "up" and "down" -- it may be relative to the plane of the floor wherever they happen to be.

Dave Rogers · 17th July 2012, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

If they're not near the surface and their rock environment isn't precisely flat, they may not have an absolute "up" and "down" -- it may be relative to the plane of the floor wherever they happen to be.

"Up" and "down still have perfectly clear and practically useful meanings in a liquid environment. "Up" is the way bubbles tend to go, and "down" is the way stones tend to go.

Dave

AvalonXQ · 17th July 2012, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

"Up" and "down still have perfectly clear and practically useful meanings in a liquid environment. "Up" is the way bubbles tend to go, and "down" is the way stones tend to go.

I don't disagree. I just think there are potential operative environments and methods of thought where these wouldn't be important enough to be egocentric directions. They may just be absolute directions like "north" and "south" are for us.

GlennB · 17th July 2012, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

I don't disagree. I just think there are potential operative environments and methods of thought where these wouldn't be important enough to be egocentric directions. They may just be absolute directions like "north" and "south" are for us.

I don't quite understand what you're saying. North and south are nothing more than arbitrary names which come in handy for reference purposes, just like left and right. Up and down are absolutes.

eta: unless you are a sentient cloud of subatomic particles wafting around in deep space and not subject to local gravity
(Hi Dave

)

AvalonXQ · 17th July 2012, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by GlennB

I don't quite understand what you're saying.

I'm saying that "up" and "down" are important for us, so much so that they're basic to our sense of positioning. That might not be so for a deep sea race where up and down are largely academic.

GlennB · 17th July 2012, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

I'm saying that "up" and "down" are important for us, so much so that they're basic to our sense of positioning. That might not be so for a deep sea race where up and down are largely academic.

And yet you won't find any fish that routinely swims upside-down, or even randomly up/down, or round+round. They can do these things, but 99+% of the time are oriented with dorsal fin up and anus down (etc). This isn't coincidence. It's tremendously valuable to know where the bed and surface are, and all points in between. Where is your rocky or weedy refuge when predators attack? It's typically down.

And if our deep-sea race has some basic technology then they'll still need to vent their 'houses' of all the fish-farts they do and all the poop they drop.

bruto · 17th July 2012, 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

I'm saying that "up" and "down" are important for us, so much so that they're basic to our sense of positioning. That might not be so for a deep sea race where up and down are largely academic.

But even if it's just academic and not usually thought of use in life, it seems likely that it could be communicated and agreed upon if the beings we're dealing with are on a planet which has gravity.

13th July 2012, 06:15 AM	#122
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: In a world lit only by fire. Posts: 17,894	Originally Posted by anglolawyer As a matter of interest, would we be able to communicate with anti-matter aliens at all? Surely somewhere between the two bat phones the atoms (or bosons or whatever) conveying the information would be annihilated. If we use electromagnetism there's no problem. In effect, the photon is its own antiparticle, so antimatter interacts with photons (and, by extension, the electromagnetic field) much the same as matter does (making appropriate allowance for opposite charge and suchlike). We could talk to antimatter beings by radio quite safely, though I wouldn't want them closer than a good few million light years for other reasons. As for a superluminal communications system, there's nothing in our current understanding of physics that makes such a thing possible, so it's not possible to answer the question. Dave
	__________________ "We will punish the murderer together. Our punishment will be more generosity, more tolerance and more democracy." - Fabian Stang, Mayor of Oslo SSKCAS, covert member

13th July 2012, 06:30 AM	#123
Myriad Hyperthetical Moderator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 8,204	According to an idea popular among science fiction writers around the 1960s (but not borne out by physics), the anti-matter people would agree about left and right, but disagree about clockwise and counterclockwise, because they'd be experiencing time in reverse relative to us.
	__________________ The cosmos is a vast Loom, with time the warp and space the weft. We are all fruit of the Loom, unaware.

13th July 2012, 06:43 AM	#124
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: In a world lit only by fire. Posts: 17,894	Originally Posted by Myriad According to an idea popular among science fiction writers around the 1960s (but not borne out by physics), the anti-matter people would agree about left and right, but disagree about clockwise and counterclockwise, because they'd be experiencing time in reverse relative to us. Then maybe we should play them some Led Zeppelin albums and see what they can hear. Dave
	__________________ "We will punish the murderer together. Our punishment will be more generosity, more tolerance and more democracy." - Fabian Stang, Mayor of Oslo SSKCAS, covert member

13th July 2012, 10:42 AM	#127
anglolawyer Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: surrey, england Posts: 3,305	Originally Posted by Delvo We're not in danger of having our friendly alien neighbors turn out to be antimatter. Not only do stars and planets have to be made entirely out of one form or the other because a mixture would never survive, but the same thing is also true of interstellar matter. So if there were antimatter aliens, they'd need to live on antimatter planets around antimatter stars in antimatter galaxies in antimatter galaxy clusters with peculiarly empty space separating them form normal matter galaxy clusters and lots of radiation coming from the past annihilations in that empty space that made it so empty. That's not what we see out there, so there are no antimatter objects. Cool. So this thread is solved then.
	Last edited by anglolawyer; 13th July 2012 at 10:43 AM. Reason: I used the word 'is' twice and had to delete one of them.

13th July 2012, 11:56 AM	#128
Madalch The Jester Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The wet coast. Posts: 8,706	Before you start explaining "left" and "right", how do you manage to explain all the other words? How do you learn the language of an alien?
	__________________ As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of resolving approaches zero. -Vaarsuvius It's a rum state of affairs when you feel like punching a jar of mayonnaise in the face. -Charlie Brooker

13th July 2012, 06:10 AM	#121
psionl0 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°58'S 115°57'E Posts: 4,789	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers You know, somehow I knew you were going to say that . Happy to be of assistance.

13th July 2012, 07:03 AM	#125
anglolawyer Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: surrey, england Posts: 3,305	Originally Posted by sphenisc Not at all. Imagine you've communicated as clearly as possible the meaning of "right" to a distant star system, as well as much about our science, culture and traditions. On one momentous day, at some isolated point in the vastness of space, a terran spaceship meets up with theirs. A member of each crew drifts across from each ship to conduct the first direct meeting between our civilisations. As our representative smiles and extends a hand in greeting, their representative extends their LEFT hand.... our guy would be well advised not to shake it. [ Caveat : Most of my knowledge on physics comes from 2000AD Futureshocks. ] So this thread could prove to be of considerable practical value.

13th July 2012, 07:35 AM	#126
Delvo Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Harrisburg, Pennsylvania Posts: 3,890	We're not in danger of having our friendly alien neighbors turn out to be antimatter. Not only do stars and planets have to be made entirely out of one form or the other because a mixture would never survive, but the same thing is also true of interstellar matter. So if there were antimatter aliens, they'd need to live on antimatter planets around antimatter stars in antimatter galaxies in antimatter galaxy clusters with peculiarly empty space separating them form normal matter galaxy clusters and lots of radiation coming from the past annihilations in that empty space that made it so empty. That's not what we see out there, so there are no antimatter objects.

13th July 2012, 11:58 AM	#129
DrDave Guest Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Geneva Posts: 3,110	Originally Posted by Madalch Before you start explaining "left" and "right", how do you manage to explain all the other words? How do you learn the language of an alien? 1. Start by counting out the primes in unary 2. ??? 3. Profit

13th July 2012, 11:59 AM	#130
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by Madalch Before you start explaining "left" and "right", how do you manage to explain all the other words? How do you learn the language of an alien? Universal translator.
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

13th July 2012, 12:07 PM	#131
GlennB Jellied eel and offal fancier Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arcadia Posts: 8,957	Originally Posted by Madalch Before you start explaining "left" and "right", how do you manage to explain all the other words? How do you learn the language of an alien? Intercept their TV broadcasts and surf their multi-lingual websites. Beats the hell out of that Rosetta Stone stuff.

13th July 2012, 06:50 PM	#132
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 11,191	I don't think the airplane is a very good example. IN this case assuming one knows even a little welsh and the person aboard knows even a little about numbers, one would only have to direct the pilot to observe one of a variety of gauges (we're assuming that if you know where the levers are you know the plane involved and can confirm what gauges it has). Tell him to look at a gauge that reads clockwise, note which way the numbers increase, and say that's clockwise, right rotation at the top. Anything that comes in left and right configurations on a plane will have the left on the left and the right on the right anyway, so chances are pretty good you can find a pair of gauges or controls and just read them.
	__________________ "Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding.(Samuel Johnson) The gods are less for their love of praise....(Wendell Berry)

13th July 2012, 09:34 PM	#133
Molinaro Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 3,032	Originally Posted by DrDave Describe how to create a fax machine and fax them a picture of an arrow point left And cross your fingers and hope they don't hold the picture upside down?
	__________________ 100% Cannuck!

13th July 2012, 10:57 PM	#134
Brian-M Daydreamer Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Downunder Posts: 4,280	Originally Posted by Molinaro Originally Posted by DrDave Describe how to create a fax machine and fax them a picture of an arrow point left And cross your fingers and hope they don't hold the picture upside down? It's worse than that. Even if you indicate which direction is down (eg, a horizontal line under the arrow to represent the ground), they still couldn't be sure that the arrow on the fax is pointing left. The reason being, how do you tell them which direction the scan signal is moving? Telling them it's moving left to right from top to bottom won't help unless they already know left from right. If they just guess at it, their fax machine could produce mirror-images of the original. The same applies for television signals.
	__________________ "That is just what you feel, that isn't reality." - hamelekim Last edited by Brian-M; 13th July 2012 at 10:58 PM.

14th July 2012, 04:30 AM	#135
anglolawyer Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: surrey, england Posts: 3,305	Wait a minute. Send a fax? If you can send a fax you can send anything, so why not an email, with attachments? These will not be taken out of the fax machine upside down. Sending a fax should not be allowed. I bet our whole system will be totally swamped when aliens can start spamming it with faxes. I may go ex-directory.

16th July 2012, 09:02 AM	#136
DavidS Muse Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 519	Originally Posted by Madalch Before you start explaining "left" and "right", how do you manage to explain all the other words? How do you learn the language of an alien? While that's surely a difficult question, it's one the OP presumes already addressed.
DavidS Muse Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 519

16th July 2012, 11:54 AM	#137
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	Even if you could give them a thousand examples, there is no guarantee even highly intelligent entities could understand the concept. If they were rotationally symmetrical creatures for example, the very idea of handedness might be just too alien. My wife is bilaterally symmetrical and she hasn't grasped it yet.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885

16th July 2012, 11:58 AM	#138
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by Soapy Sam Even if you could give them a thousand examples, there is no guarantee even highly intelligent entities could understand the concept. If they were rotationally symmetrical creatures for example, the very idea of handedness might be just too alien. That's true. I just fine it interesting that, even knowing that I was dealing with something that thinks like a human and even has its own words for "left" and "right," there's no way to reliably specify handedness without a common object of visual reference or the use of weak force asymmetry.
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

16th July 2012, 02:17 PM	#139
Delvo Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Harrisburg, Pennsylvania Posts: 3,890	Radial symmetry wouldn't mean they had no concept of left & right or couldn't understand it if we tried to show them. It's inherently built in to the basics of movement, so any critter that moves would have noticed it. Gravity establishes one universal axis (up/down), and as soon as you're moving, that creates the second (forward/backward). Left/right is simply the other one that remains: the one in which you could deviate from your old forward to make your new forward different. (And a brain that can build advanced communications technology isn't going to be found in a species that doesn't move.)

16th July 2012, 02:30 PM	#140
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by Delvo Radial symmetry wouldn't mean they had no concept of left & right or couldn't understand it if we tried to show them. It's inherently built in to the basics of movement, so any critter that moves would have noticed it. Gravity establishes one universal axis (up/down), and as soon as you're moving, that creates the second (forward/backward). Left/right is simply the other one that remains: the one in which you could deviate from your old forward to make your new forward different. If the species is aquatic, they may not have a universal concept of "up" and "down" either. For example, they may simply have a notion of "near" and "far", plus a notion of "me" and "you". They may use these two points to normally communicate objects -- so they may have a words that mean "on the other side of you (relative to me)", "on the other side of me (relative to you)," "between us and closer to me", "between us and closer to you", and "distant from both of us." It may be that objects "distant from both of us" are usually referred to using the cardinal directions or some other notable reference point. Quote: (And a brain that can build advanced communications technology isn't going to be found in a species that doesn't move.) I don't see why not. What would prevent a naturally sessile species from learning such things?
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

16th July 2012, 02:57 PM	#141
kalen Your Daddy Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Classified Posts: 933	Since EM waves can be circularly polarized, just send the following message using a left-circularly (say) radio wave: "Dear Mr. Alien: This message is sent using left-circularly polarized EM waves. We await your reply in 200 years. Regards, The Earth."
	__________________ No way! Yahweh!

16th July 2012, 06:00 PM	#142
Roboramma Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shanghai Posts: 7,097	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ I don't see why not. What would prevent a naturally sessile species from learning such things? The problem isn't learning, the problem is the evolution of an advanced nervous system.
	__________________ "... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov

16th July 2012, 06:13 PM	#143
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by Roboramma The problem isn't learning, the problem is the evolution of an advanced nervous system. Okay, so consider a sessile animal that lives in a relatively volatile environment -- there are often strong and unpredictable currents, so being permanently rooted to the spot is a good survival strategy. In fact, the sessiles may have previously been squid-like before some tentacles became permanent clingers as a developmental adaptation. It primarily snags passing fish with tentacles, and so develops better eyes and a fast nervous system in order to perceive fish from further away that will be swept in by the fast currents. It also develops good hearing/smell in order to better predict conditions favorable for releasing its gametes, either to avoid or to use the strong current. Some of the sessiles that land in relatively close proximity develop an advantage by being able to communicate their environment together. Those that can communicate quickly and accurately are better able to snag fish and predict favorable breeding conditions. More sophisticated communication and more accurate prediction of the volatile environment promotes additional brain growth, and development in social skills, communication, and environmental awareness. Sensory organs also get better. Is there any reason that these creatures couldn't eventually become intelligent, with tool use to follow relatively late in development -- after they already have sophisticated reasoning and communication capabilities?
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Last edited by AvalonXQ; 16th July 2012 at 06:15 PM.

17th July 2012, 01:22 AM	#144
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: In a world lit only by fire. Posts: 17,894	Originally Posted by kalen Since EM waves can be circularly polarized, just send the following message using a left-circularly (say) radio wave: "Dear Mr. Alien: This message is sent using left-circularly polarized EM waves. We await your reply in 200 years. Regards, The Earth." Fine, as long as it propagates through an entirely isotropic medium. If there's any difference between the propagation constants for the two plane polarisations, though, the polarisation state will change and won't be known when the signal arrives. A quick google search suggests that interstellar birefringence is known and studied, and it doesn't take much to scramble a polarisation state; if there's enough to be observed, it's enough to transform the state by an unknown amount. Dave
	__________________ "We will punish the murderer together. Our punishment will be more generosity, more tolerance and more democracy." - Fabian Stang, Mayor of Oslo SSKCAS, covert member

17th July 2012, 01:36 AM	#145
GlennB Jellied eel and offal fancier Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arcadia Posts: 8,957	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ If the species is aquatic, they may not have a universal concept of "up" and "down" either. 'Up' would be where lighter-than-water things go when released. Shark farts, for example. It's also where the water has a boundary with atmosphere (or something non-aquatic, anyway). 'Down' is the other way.
	Last edited by GlennB; 17th July 2012 at 01:39 AM.

17th July 2012, 07:35 AM	#146
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by GlennB 'Up' would be where lighter-than-water things go when released. Shark farts, for example. It's also where the water has a boundary with atmosphere (or something non-aquatic, anyway). 'Down' is the other way. If they're not near the surface and their rock environment isn't precisely flat, they may not have an absolute "up" and "down" -- it may be relative to the plane of the floor wherever they happen to be.
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

17th July 2012, 08:06 AM	#147
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: In a world lit only by fire. Posts: 17,894	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ If they're not near the surface and their rock environment isn't precisely flat, they may not have an absolute "up" and "down" -- it may be relative to the plane of the floor wherever they happen to be. "Up" and "down still have perfectly clear and practically useful meanings in a liquid environment. "Up" is the way bubbles tend to go, and "down" is the way stones tend to go. Dave
	__________________ "We will punish the murderer together. Our punishment will be more generosity, more tolerance and more democracy." - Fabian Stang, Mayor of Oslo SSKCAS, covert member

17th July 2012, 09:28 AM	#148
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers "Up" and "down still have perfectly clear and practically useful meanings in a liquid environment. "Up" is the way bubbles tend to go, and "down" is the way stones tend to go. I don't disagree. I just think there are potential operative environments and methods of thought where these wouldn't be important enough to be egocentric directions. They may just be absolute directions like "north" and "south" are for us.
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

17th July 2012, 11:49 AM	#149
GlennB Jellied eel and offal fancier Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arcadia Posts: 8,957	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ I don't disagree. I just think there are potential operative environments and methods of thought where these wouldn't be important enough to be egocentric directions. They may just be absolute directions like "north" and "south" are for us. I don't quite understand what you're saying. North and south are nothing more than arbitrary names which come in handy for reference purposes, just like left and right. Up and down are absolutes. eta: unless you are a sentient cloud of subatomic particles wafting around in deep space and not subject to local gravity (Hi Dave )
	Last edited by GlennB; 17th July 2012 at 11:50 AM.

17th July 2012, 11:59 AM	#150
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by GlennB I don't quite understand what you're saying. I'm saying that "up" and "down" are important for us, so much so that they're basic to our sense of positioning. That might not be so for a deep sea race where up and down are largely academic.
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

17th July 2012, 12:57 PM	#151
GlennB Jellied eel and offal fancier Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arcadia Posts: 8,957	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ I'm saying that "up" and "down" are important for us, so much so that they're basic to our sense of positioning. That might not be so for a deep sea race where up and down are largely academic. And yet you won't find any fish that routinely swims upside-down, or even randomly up/down, or round+round. They can do these things, but 99+% of the time are oriented with dorsal fin up and anus down (etc). This isn't coincidence. It's tremendously valuable to know where the bed and surface are, and all points in between. Where is your rocky or weedy refuge when predators attack? It's typically down. And if our deep-sea race has some basic technology then they'll still need to vent their 'houses' of all the fish-farts they do and all the poop they drop.

17th July 2012, 08:48 PM	#152
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 11,191	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ I'm saying that "up" and "down" are important for us, so much so that they're basic to our sense of positioning. That might not be so for a deep sea race where up and down are largely academic. But even if it's just academic and not usually thought of use in life, it seems likely that it could be communicated and agreed upon if the beings we're dealing with are on a planet which has gravity.
	__________________ "Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding.(Samuel Johnson) The gods are less for their love of praise....(Wendell Berry)