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lopeyschools · 24th August 2012, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by mushy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTSbfs32yCU

Look here he gets owned by westboro baptist church lol. He can't even beat these idiots. All he does is puts his fingers together and taps his hand on the table because he think it makes him look wise.

Look he even has rehersed answers that he think makes him sound smart. But makes aboslutle no sense in the conversation. It only serves to make him sound like a pompus idiot.

We get it, you don't like him. What does this have to do with the thread OP?

zooterkin · 24th August 2012, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by mushy

No, he put in work to make himself sound intelligent. Its to stroke his own over inflated ego.

I guess you don't have that problem, then.

mushy · 24th August 2012, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by lopeyschools

We get it, you don't like him. What does this have to do with the thread OP?

Ugh, its a thread about it? Its a discussion about who is telling the truth, anything that higlights his self serving ego is relevent.

devnull · 25th August 2012, 04:33 AM

Originally Posted by mushy

No, he put in work to make himself sound intelligent. Its to stroke his own over inflated ego.

You're being ridiculous. This is why I havent responded further to you.

UnrepentantSinner · 25th August 2012, 07:54 AM

Interesting. Teary Amy has put out a request for the fellow members of the personality cult to post blog entries decrying the "tone" of recent discourse amongst skeptics and I'm sad to see Phil Plait had posted more stuff that makes me lose respect for him in the course of this bruhaha.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/ba...ncing-of-hate/

"Threats, dickery, bullying, hate, insults, mob-baiting, and humiliation are not honorable actions and must not be used. You want to change my mind? You want to win my heart to your cause? Then argue your case logically and based on evidence. If you have to resort to the kind of crap we’re seeing now, then maybe your convictions aren’t as rationally based as you think they are."

Half of the things listed in the first sentance have been the preferred MO for PZ, Skepchick, FTB for quite some time.

I wonder if Phil's post and Amy's request for such will cause them to be labeled "tone trolls" by the groupthink sycophantic mob at FTB? My guess is no.

Axiom_Blade · 25th August 2012, 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by UnrepentantSinner

Interesting. Teary Amy has put out a request for the fellow members of the personality cult to post blog entries decrying the "tone" of recent discourse amongst skeptics and I'm sad to see Phil Plait had posted more stuff that makes me lose respect for him in the course of this bruhaha.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/ba...ncing-of-hate/

Originally Posted by Phil Plait

I wrote this article for my friend Amy Roth, aka SurlyAmy, who has asked leaders in the field of skepticism to write about the recent surge of anti-women rhetoric.

Here's where I think he's wrong. I don't think it's "anti-women rhetoric". I think it's anti-Skepchick, anti-FtB rhetoric. Has anybody been attacking Harriet Myers, ERV, or any other women not affiliated with this drama club?

Moss · 26th August 2012, 09:54 AM

I suppose the irony eating energy alien Myriad talked about now has an obesity problem.

Walter Ego · 26th August 2012, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by UnrepentantSinner

Interesting. Teary Amy has put out a request for the fellow members of the personality cult to post blog entries decrying the "tone" of recent discourse amongst skeptics and I'm sad to see Phil Plait had posted more stuff that makes me lose respect for him in the course of this bruhaha.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/ba...ncing-of-hate/

"Threats, dickery, bullying, hate, insults, mob-baiting, and humiliation are not honorable actions and must not be used. You want to change my mind? You want to win my heart to your cause? Then argue your case logically and based on evidence. If you have to resort to the kind of crap we’re seeing now, then maybe your convictions aren’t as rationally based as you think they are."

Half of the things listed in the first sentance have been the preferred MO for PZ, Skepchick, FTB for quite some time.

I wonder if Phil's post and Amy's request for such will cause them to be labeled "tone trolls" by the groupthink sycophantic mob at FTB? My guess is no.

The mistake is assuming we are dealing with adults who are engaged in a debate using reason and logic. This is about emotions, not reason and logic.

We are dealing with an in-group elite who are semi-celebrities (in the so called skeptic/atheist community, to the public at large they are mostly unknown). These people are friends, they know each other. They meet at conferences where they promote their blogs and books and peddle their jewelry and bumperstickers or whatever products can increase their revenue and notoriety. (Often the "product" is just themselves.)

Logic is often absent in the arena of friendship and within the dynamics of in-group behavior. When we decide someone is a friend (or that we just like them or that they are one of "us"), we will make excuses for them and rationalize behavior and attitudes that we would condemn coming from people outside the friendship circle. This is such a common form of hypocrisy it barely requires being pointed out when it happens.

Don't expect reason and logic in circles of friends or from the "in" group. Dawkin asked, reasonably, what actual harm did RW suffer from Elevator Guy. The answer, correctly, was none! What horrible attack did Amy suffer at TAM that caused her to beak down into tears and literally flee the scene? Some mild criticism on a t-shirt!

UnrepentantSinner · 26th August 2012, 09:02 PM

Originally Posted by Walter Ego

We are dealing with an in-group elite who are semi-celebrities (in the so called skeptic/atheist community, to the public at large they are mostly unknown).

This cuts to the heart of the whole drama club, hand wringing, schism, etc. etc. talk.

For the most part, people who self-identify as skeptics, etc., don't know who most of these people are, don't read their blogs, listen to their podcats, watch their YouTube vids or otherwise give a **** about them or their opinions.

I've been a member of this forum since August 2001 and was aware of Dawkins because of his books, Rebecca because she was a member here and PZ because of his EvoDevo work. Phil Plait also, but again because of his involvement in TAM 1. Gred Laden, Ophilia Benson, Teary Amy, etc. are nobodies to me - though I, myself am a nobody too, but I'm representative of people active in the skeptical community hadn't heard of them or cared what they had to say before Elevatorgate.

Take Thunderf00t for example. I've never seen any of his videos, but I was aware of him via references to him. How about Aron Ra? Anyone reading or lurking in this thread heard of or aware of him? He's quite the pop star in the Crevo and atheist YouTube community, but not many folks on this forum seem aware of him. I know him from another forum, am friendly with his wife, have had dinner with the two of them because we all live in the Dallas area, but otherwise would have no idea who the hell this "superstar" is.

I've referred to it repeatedly in these threads, but really wish some "critical thinkers" would read Shermer's take on Ayn Rand.
http://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/...lt-in-history/

Axiom_Blade · 27th August 2012, 12:08 AM

Originally Posted by UnrepentantSinner

I've referred to it repeatedly in these threads, but really wish some "critical thinkers" would read Shermer's take on Ayn Rand.
http://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/...lt-in-history/

Oh, yes. This is the most interesting essay I've ever read from Shermer.

Walter Ego · 27th August 2012, 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by UnrepentantSinner

I've referred to it repeatedly in these threads, but really wish some "critical thinkers" would read Shermer's take on Ayn Rand.
http://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/...lt-in-history/

I'm familiar with the Shermer article but thanks for the link. What the emerging FTB/Atheist Plus cult lacks, however, is an charismatic Ayn Rand style cult leader. As Shermer emphasizes, the Rand cult was a personality cult. There are other similarities with the Rand cult, though.

Shermer:

Quote:

For Objectivists, once a principle has been discovered through reason to be True, that is the end of the discussion. If you disagree with the principle, then your reasoning is flawed. If your reasoning is flawed it can be corrected, but if it is not, you remain flawed and do not belong in the group. Excommunication is the final step for such unreformed heretics.

FT Blogger Richard Carrier:

Quote:

We believe in being reasonable. This means, first, that we believe in being logical and rational in forming beliefs and opinions. Which means anyone who makes a fallacious argument and, when shown that they have, does not admit it, is not one of us, and is to be marginalized and kicked out, as not part of our movement, and not anyone we any longer wish to deal with.

Rrose Selavy · 27th August 2012, 10:04 AM

Sometimes people behave badly, sometimes not up to their own standards, but even before you used the example of Rand in the article , it's the lack of rigour applied to the self and sheer hypocrisy while condemning others that makes it all so much worse.

Skeptic Guy · 28th August 2012, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by UnrepentantSinner

Interesting. Teary Amy has put out a request for the fellow members of the personality cult to post blog entries decrying the "tone" of recent discourse amongst skeptics and I'm sad to see Phil Plait had posted more stuff that makes me lose respect for him in the course of this bruhaha.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/ba...ncing-of-hate/

"Threats, dickery, bullying, hate, insults, mob-baiting, and humiliation are not honorable actions and must not be used. You want to change my mind? You want to win my heart to your cause? Then argue your case logically and based on evidence. If you have to resort to the kind of crap we’re seeing now, then maybe your convictions aren’t as rationally based as you think they are."

Half of the things listed in the first sentance have been the preferred MO for PZ, Skepchick, FTB for quite some time.

I wonder if Phil's post and Amy's request for such will cause them to be labeled "tone trolls" by the groupthink sycophantic mob at FTB? My guess is no.

Yeah, I read that post by Phil on FB and thought he misapplied it. Or at the very least, ignored also applying it to those he seems to support. He also incorrectly characterized or overly-simplified the whole bruhaha by attributing it to misogynists attacking Rebecca for the Elevator video. It became much more than that.

Originally Posted by Axiom_Blade

Here's where I think he's wrong. I don't think it's "anti-women rhetoric". I think it's anti-Skepchick, anti-FtB rhetoric. Has anybody been attacking Harriet Myers, ERV, or any other women not affiliated with this drama club?

I agree, I don't see it being an attack on women, as much as it's an anti-skepchic/FtB sentiment. Yes, I have seen posters using ugly words against people, but it's mostly from trolls from both sides of the argument. The trouble is that the adults have left the pool and the kids are beginning to hold each other underwater.

Rrose Selavy · 28th August 2012, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by Axiom_Blade

Here's where I think he's wrong. I don't think it's "anti-women rhetoric". I think it's anti-Skepchick, anti-FtB rhetoric. Has anybody been attacking Harriet Myers, ERV, or any other women not affiliated with this drama club?

I agree with you and on that last question, correct if I'm wrong but yes. I'd never heard of "ERV" til I saw it mentioned on FTB , or by FTB commenters, given the vitriol I read against it , I thought it was some kind of rival forum. I just traced it to the blog ran by an Abbie Smith. Losing track of all this drama, I have little idea of the history of this particular conflict.

This for example is what PZ Myers said in May 2012:

Quote:

The latest uproar from the misogynist mob is over a rumor that there is a secret list of people who won’t get invited to conferences. There is no list. There are petty people who think calling someone ugly is reasonable behavior, people who have not yet grown out of junior high school. There are personal preferences, as well.

For instance, I will not participate in any conference in which Abbie Smith is a speaker. If I’m invited, and later discover that she is also invited, I will politely turn down the offer.

I could find myself spending a lot more time at home, which wouldn’t be bad at all, except that she doesn’t get invited out that often, and her coterie of slimy acolytes are virtual non-entities, too. It is a positive aspect of the growing atheist movement that it tends to be progressive, egalitarian, and not particularly supportive of shrieking over-privileged children.

Now I have to stroll out to a bäckerei for coffee and pastries.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngu...-no-blacklist/

Wildy · 28th August 2012, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by Rrose Selavy

I agree with you and on that last question, correct if I'm wrong but yes. I'd never heard of "ERV" til I saw it mentioned on FTB , or by FTB commenters, given the vitriol I read against it , I thought it was some kind of rival forum. I just traced it to the blog ran by an Abbie Smith. Losing track of all this drama, I have little idea of the history of this particular conflict.

The short version for people who are interested and don't know is that Abbie and PZ ended up on opposite sides during Elevatorgate. She was probably the most well known blogger to have been consistently anti-Watson for the entire thing. She of course attracted other like-minded people who discussed the issue in the essentially unmoderated comment threads and that caused quite a bit of friction between the FtBloggers and the commenters destined to become the "Slime Pit". What ended up happening was that the most outrageous commenter was held up by Myers and others as the "average" erv commenter and that meant that because Abbie wasn't doing anything about it meant that she was a misogynist like her "average" commenter and was therefore evil.

If one is interested in finding out more you can have fun googling. However most of the stuff from erv has been taken down after National Geographic introduced standards to the Scienceblogs.

devnull · 28th August 2012, 09:45 PM

Originally Posted by Rrose Selavy

This for example is what PZ Myers said in May 2012:

I wonder what that was all about?

Im really sad about how much respect Ive lost for PZ and his regulars in the last year or so. This whole schtick of calling anyone who disagrees with anything at all a misogynist got old very quickly.

The sadest thing is that *they cant see it*.

Natural Born Skeptic · 28th August 2012, 10:31 PM

Originally Posted by devnull

I wonder what that was all about?

Im really sad about how much respect Ive lost for PZ and his regulars in the last year or so. This whole schtick of calling anyone who disagrees with anything at all a misogynist got old very quickly.

The sadest thing is that *they cant see it*.

He's a very angry, nasty and immature man. It's a shame because he also writes some brilliant stuff from time to time. The comments section on his blog is particularly vile and he seems to bask in encouraging that tone. Anyone with an opposite opinion is quickly shouted down and called names. And YES, they LOVE calling people misogynists.

eirik · 29th August 2012, 12:04 AM

"Thunderf00t -- The Julian Assange of Skepticism(tm)"

Why, is he on the run from rape charges?

(did not read thread)

Natural Born Skeptic · 29th August 2012, 10:35 AM

I just skimmed through some more of those blog entries. It's a bit amazing how every single FTB blog author all posted on it. It was clearly something they all agreed to or were ordered to do OR it reveals a crazy level of group think. One thing that every single one of the blogs entries has in common - these people are delusional drama queens! All in all this is a rather silly little feud in which they kicked someone off their little list where they gossip about other people, without making sure he was actually off it. He questionably (ethically) keeps reading it, sees comments about how he should be "drummed out of the movement and never allowed to speak again" and shock of shock, starts leaking things from their little gossip group.

I better read all 7 pages of this thread before commenting further, I apologize if this has all been covered already.

cornsail · 29th August 2012, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Natural Born Skeptic

I just skimmed through some more of those blog entries. It's a bit amazing how every single FTB blog author all posted on it.

Really? I often see people saying that FTB is a diverse group of bloggers who shouldn't be lumped together. Not that this invalidates that, but it does merit an eyebrow raise.

Natural Born Skeptic · 29th August 2012, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by cornsail

Really? I often see people saying that FTB is a diverse group of bloggers who shouldn't be lumped together. Not that this invalidates that, but it does merit an eyebrow raise.

Did you see this post? See says:

Quote:

Here’s the current list of blog posts protesting Thunderf00t’s inexcusable behavior.

Ed Brayton
Jason Thibeault (includes technical evidence for Mason’s hack)
Richard Carrier
Dana Hunter
Matt Dillahunty
Jen McCreight
Ophelia Benson
Al Stefanelli
Ashley Miller
Greta Christina
JT Eberhard
Zinnia Jones
Stephanie Zvan
Natalie Reed
Richard Coughlan (NSFW, and very sarcastic)
Shane O’Connor
Yankee Cynic
Nathan Hevenstone
Christopher “Tanoro” Gray
Andrew
Kate Donovan
Skeptifem
The uncynic

I opened them all in tabs just to get an idea of what I was going to be seeing and it was pretty funny to see that every single one of them was a "Free Thought" blog!

Of course she also links to Thunderf00t’s blog, making sure to title it for him as "Thunderf00t’s confession" which is pretty funny. I think I saw several others referring to it in that vein as well, so I guess their marketing manager said "hey, make sure and refer to his blog post as a confession"

.

Wildy · 29th August 2012, 12:38 PM

Every name listed from Richard Coughlan on isn't on FtB. However pretty much all of FtB did say something.

paulhutch · 29th August 2012, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Natural Born Skeptic

I opened them all in tabs just to get an idea of what I was going to be seeing and it was pretty funny to see that every single one of them was a "Free Thought" blog!

In my browser just under 2/3rds of them open at FTB, the last nine are independent sites. FTB has 36 blogs, of which 14 are in the list so just under 40% of FTB.

Natural Born Skeptic · 29th August 2012, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by Wildy

Every name listed from Richard Coughlan on isn't on FtB. However pretty much all of FtB did say something.

My mistake, I thought I had opened all of them, I may not have made it down that far.

Natural Born Skeptic · 29th August 2012, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by UnrepentantSinner

I've referred to it repeatedly in these threads, but really wish some "critical thinkers" would read Shermer's take on Ayn Rand.

http://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/...lt-in-history/

Thanks for the link, that was an interesting read.

tsig · 29th August 2012, 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by eirik

"Thunderf00t -- The Julian Assange of Skepticism(tm)"

Why, is he on the run from rape charges?

(did not read thread)

As near as I can make out he actually was raped, repeatedly with a rusty porcupine.

24th August 2012, 12:22 PM	#242
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 25,029	Originally Posted by mushy No, he put in work to make himself sound intelligent. Its to stroke his own over inflated ego. I guess you don't have that problem, then.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232

24th August 2012, 02:17 PM	#243
mushy Banned Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 626	Originally Posted by lopeyschools We get it, you don't like him. What does this have to do with the thread OP? Ugh, its a thread about it? Its a discussion about who is telling the truth, anything that higlights his self serving ego is relevent.
mushy Banned Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 626

25th August 2012, 04:33 AM	#244
devnull Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 4,537	Originally Posted by mushy No, he put in work to make himself sound intelligent. Its to stroke his own over inflated ego. You're being ridiculous. This is why I havent responded further to you.
	__________________ no, i don't think i need to read naturalistic literature more accurately, to be convinced its true. - Gibhor

25th August 2012, 07:54 AM	#245
UnrepentantSinner A post by Alan Smithee Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: USAian is not a word Posts: 26,441	Interesting. Teary Amy has put out a request for the fellow members of the personality cult to post blog entries decrying the "tone" of recent discourse amongst skeptics and I'm sad to see Phil Plait had posted more stuff that makes me lose respect for him in the course of this bruhaha. http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/ba...ncing-of-hate/ "Threats, dickery, bullying, hate, insults, mob-baiting, and humiliation are not honorable actions and must not be used. You want to change my mind? You want to win my heart to your cause? Then argue your case logically and based on evidence. If you have to resort to the kind of crap we’re seeing now, then maybe your convictions aren’t as rationally based as you think they are." Half of the things listed in the first sentance have been the preferred MO for PZ, Skepchick, FTB for quite some time. I wonder if Phil's post and Amy's request for such will cause them to be labeled "tone trolls" by the groupthink sycophantic mob at FTB? My guess is no.
	__________________ I am an American citizen who is part of American society and briefly served in the American armed forces. I use American dollars and pay taxes that support the American government. And yes, despite the editorial decison to change American politics to the nonsensical "USA politics" subforum, I follow and comment on American politics.

26th August 2012, 03:58 PM	#248
Walter Ego Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 2,557	Originally Posted by UnrepentantSinner Interesting. Teary Amy has put out a request for the fellow members of the personality cult to post blog entries decrying the "tone" of recent discourse amongst skeptics and I'm sad to see Phil Plait had posted more stuff that makes me lose respect for him in the course of this bruhaha. http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/ba...ncing-of-hate/ "Threats, dickery, bullying, hate, insults, mob-baiting, and humiliation are not honorable actions and must not be used. You want to change my mind? You want to win my heart to your cause? Then argue your case logically and based on evidence. If you have to resort to the kind of crap we’re seeing now, then maybe your convictions aren’t as rationally based as you think they are." Half of the things listed in the first sentance have been the preferred MO for PZ, Skepchick, FTB for quite some time. I wonder if Phil's post and Amy's request for such will cause them to be labeled "tone trolls" by the groupthink sycophantic mob at FTB? My guess is no. The mistake is assuming we are dealing with adults who are engaged in a debate using reason and logic. This is about emotions, not reason and logic. We are dealing with an in-group elite who are semi-celebrities (in the so called skeptic/atheist community, to the public at large they are mostly unknown). These people are friends, they know each other. They meet at conferences where they promote their blogs and books and peddle their jewelry and bumperstickers or whatever products can increase their revenue and notoriety. (Often the "product" is just themselves.) Logic is often absent in the arena of friendship and within the dynamics of in-group behavior. When we decide someone is a friend (or that we just like them or that they are one of "us"), we will make excuses for them and rationalize behavior and attitudes that we would condemn coming from people outside the friendship circle. This is such a common form of hypocrisy it barely requires being pointed out when it happens. Don't expect reason and logic in circles of friends or from the "in" group. Dawkin asked, reasonably, what actual harm did RW suffer from Elevator Guy. The answer, correctly, was none! What horrible attack did Amy suffer at TAM that caused her to beak down into tears and literally flee the scene? Some mild criticism on a t-shirt!
	Last edited by Walter Ego; 26th August 2012 at 04:40 PM.

24th August 2012, 11:57 AM	#241
lopeyschools Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: West Coast - BC Posts: 378	Originally Posted by mushy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTSbfs32yCU Look here he gets owned by westboro baptist church lol. He can't even beat these idiots. All he does is puts his fingers together and taps his hand on the table because he think it makes him look wise. Look he even has rehersed answers that he think makes him sound smart. But makes aboslutle no sense in the conversation. It only serves to make him sound like a pompus idiot. We get it, you don't like him. What does this have to do with the thread OP?

25th August 2012, 11:28 PM	#246
Axiom_Blade Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,761	Originally Posted by UnrepentantSinner Interesting. Teary Amy has put out a request for the fellow members of the personality cult to post blog entries decrying the "tone" of recent discourse amongst skeptics and I'm sad to see Phil Plait had posted more stuff that makes me lose respect for him in the course of this bruhaha. http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/ba...ncing-of-hate/ Originally Posted by Phil Plait I wrote this article for my friend Amy Roth, aka SurlyAmy, who has asked leaders in the field of skepticism to write about the recent surge of anti-women rhetoric. Here's where I think he's wrong. I don't think it's "anti-women rhetoric". I think it's anti-Skepchick, anti-FtB rhetoric. Has anybody been attacking Harriet Myers, ERV, or any other women not affiliated with this drama club?

26th August 2012, 09:54 AM	#247
Moss Dramatocrat Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Heiligsblechle country Posts: 3,229	I suppose the irony eating energy alien Myriad talked about now has an obesity problem.

26th August 2012, 09:02 PM	#249
UnrepentantSinner A post by Alan Smithee Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: USAian is not a word Posts: 26,441	Originally Posted by Walter Ego We are dealing with an in-group elite who are semi-celebrities (in the so called skeptic/atheist community, to the public at large they are mostly unknown). This cuts to the heart of the whole drama club, hand wringing, schism, etc. etc. talk. For the most part, people who self-identify as skeptics, etc., don't know who most of these people are, don't read their blogs, listen to their podcats, watch their YouTube vids or otherwise give a **** about them or their opinions. I've been a member of this forum since August 2001 and was aware of Dawkins because of his books, Rebecca because she was a member here and PZ because of his EvoDevo work. Phil Plait also, but again because of his involvement in TAM 1. Gred Laden, Ophilia Benson, Teary Amy, etc. are nobodies to me - though I, myself am a nobody too, but I'm representative of people active in the skeptical community hadn't heard of them or cared what they had to say before Elevatorgate. Take Thunderf00t for example. I've never seen any of his videos, but I was aware of him via references to him. How about Aron Ra? Anyone reading or lurking in this thread heard of or aware of him? He's quite the pop star in the Crevo and atheist YouTube community, but not many folks on this forum seem aware of him. I know him from another forum, am friendly with his wife, have had dinner with the two of them because we all live in the Dallas area, but otherwise would have no idea who the hell this "superstar" is. I've referred to it repeatedly in these threads, but really wish some "critical thinkers" would read Shermer's take on Ayn Rand. http://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/...lt-in-history/
	__________________ I am an American citizen who is part of American society and briefly served in the American armed forces. I use American dollars and pay taxes that support the American government. And yes, despite the editorial decison to change American politics to the nonsensical "USA politics" subforum, I follow and comment on American politics.

27th August 2012, 12:08 AM	#250
Axiom_Blade Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,761	Originally Posted by UnrepentantSinner I've referred to it repeatedly in these threads, but really wish some "critical thinkers" would read Shermer's take on Ayn Rand. http://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/...lt-in-history/ Oh, yes. This is the most interesting essay I've ever read from Shermer.

27th August 2012, 07:31 AM	#251
Walter Ego Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 2,557	Originally Posted by UnrepentantSinner I've referred to it repeatedly in these threads, but really wish some "critical thinkers" would read Shermer's take on Ayn Rand. http://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/...lt-in-history/ I'm familiar with the Shermer article but thanks for the link. What the emerging FTB/Atheist Plus cult lacks, however, is an charismatic Ayn Rand style cult leader. As Shermer emphasizes, the Rand cult was a personality cult. There are other similarities with the Rand cult, though. Shermer: Quote: For Objectivists, once a principle has been discovered through reason to be True, that is the end of the discussion. If you disagree with the principle, then your reasoning is flawed. If your reasoning is flawed it can be corrected, but if it is not, you remain flawed and do not belong in the group. Excommunication is the final step for such unreformed heretics. FT Blogger Richard Carrier: Quote: We believe in being reasonable. This means, first, that we believe in being logical and rational in forming beliefs and opinions. Which means anyone who makes a fallacious argument and, when shown that they have, does not admit it, is not one of us, and is to be marginalized and kicked out, as not part of our movement, and not anyone we any longer wish to deal with.
	Last edited by Walter Ego; 27th August 2012 at 07:45 AM.

27th August 2012, 10:04 AM	#252
Rrose Selavy Stranded in Sub-Atomica Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: UK Posts: 2,955	Sometimes people behave badly, sometimes not up to their own standards, but even before you used the example of Rand in the article , it's the lack of rigour applied to the self and sheer hypocrisy while condemning others that makes it all so much worse.

28th August 2012, 11:09 AM	#253
Skeptic Guy Raccoon Death Squad Leader Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Southeast of Disorder Posts: 6,996	Originally Posted by UnrepentantSinner Interesting. Teary Amy has put out a request for the fellow members of the personality cult to post blog entries decrying the "tone" of recent discourse amongst skeptics and I'm sad to see Phil Plait had posted more stuff that makes me lose respect for him in the course of this bruhaha. http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/ba...ncing-of-hate/ "Threats, dickery, bullying, hate, insults, mob-baiting, and humiliation are not honorable actions and must not be used. You want to change my mind? You want to win my heart to your cause? Then argue your case logically and based on evidence. If you have to resort to the kind of crap we’re seeing now, then maybe your convictions aren’t as rationally based as you think they are." Half of the things listed in the first sentance have been the preferred MO for PZ, Skepchick, FTB for quite some time. I wonder if Phil's post and Amy's request for such will cause them to be labeled "tone trolls" by the groupthink sycophantic mob at FTB? My guess is no. Yeah, I read that post by Phil on FB and thought he misapplied it. Or at the very least, ignored also applying it to those he seems to support. He also incorrectly characterized or overly-simplified the whole bruhaha by attributing it to misogynists attacking Rebecca for the Elevator video. It became much more than that. Originally Posted by Axiom_Blade Here's where I think he's wrong. I don't think it's "anti-women rhetoric". I think it's anti-Skepchick, anti-FtB rhetoric. Has anybody been attacking Harriet Myers, ERV, or any other women not affiliated with this drama club? I agree, I don't see it being an attack on women, as much as it's an anti-skepchic/FtB sentiment. Yes, I have seen posters using ugly words against people, but it's mostly from trolls from both sides of the argument. The trouble is that the adults have left the pool and the kids are beginning to hold each other underwater.
	__________________ "Our history is in part a battle to the death of inadequate myths" - Carl Sagan Even Mother Teresa^WP doubted.

28th August 2012, 12:25 PM	#254
Rrose Selavy Stranded in Sub-Atomica Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: UK Posts: 2,955	Originally Posted by Axiom_Blade Here's where I think he's wrong. I don't think it's "anti-women rhetoric". I think it's anti-Skepchick, anti-FtB rhetoric. Has anybody been attacking Harriet Myers, ERV, or any other women not affiliated with this drama club? I agree with you and on that last question, correct if I'm wrong but yes. I'd never heard of "ERV" til I saw it mentioned on FTB , or by FTB commenters, given the vitriol I read against it , I thought it was some kind of rival forum. I just traced it to the blog ran by an Abbie Smith. Losing track of all this drama, I have little idea of the history of this particular conflict. This for example is what PZ Myers said in May 2012: Quote: The latest uproar from the misogynist mob is over a rumor that there is a secret list of people who won’t get invited to conferences. There is no list. There are petty people who think calling someone ugly is reasonable behavior, people who have not yet grown out of junior high school. There are personal preferences, as well. For instance, I will not participate in any conference in which Abbie Smith is a speaker. If I’m invited, and later discover that she is also invited, I will politely turn down the offer. I could find myself spending a lot more time at home, which wouldn’t be bad at all, except that she doesn’t get invited out that often, and her coterie of slimy acolytes are virtual non-entities, too. It is a positive aspect of the growing atheist movement that it tends to be progressive, egalitarian, and not particularly supportive of shrieking over-privileged children. Now I have to stroll out to a bäckerei for coffee and pastries. http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngu...-no-blacklist/
	Last edited by Rrose Selavy; 28th August 2012 at 12:29 PM.

28th August 2012, 01:36 PM	#255
Wildy Adelaidean Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia, not that you'll read the "location" field. Posts: 9,953	Originally Posted by Rrose Selavy I agree with you and on that last question, correct if I'm wrong but yes. I'd never heard of "ERV" til I saw it mentioned on FTB , or by FTB commenters, given the vitriol I read against it , I thought it was some kind of rival forum. I just traced it to the blog ran by an Abbie Smith. Losing track of all this drama, I have little idea of the history of this particular conflict. The short version for people who are interested and don't know is that Abbie and PZ ended up on opposite sides during Elevatorgate. She was probably the most well known blogger to have been consistently anti-Watson for the entire thing. She of course attracted other like-minded people who discussed the issue in the essentially unmoderated comment threads and that caused quite a bit of friction between the FtBloggers and the commenters destined to become the "Slime Pit". What ended up happening was that the most outrageous commenter was held up by Myers and others as the "average" erv commenter and that meant that because Abbie wasn't doing anything about it meant that she was a misogynist like her "average" commenter and was therefore evil. If one is interested in finding out more you can have fun googling. However most of the stuff from erv has been taken down after National Geographic introduced standards to the Scienceblogs.
	__________________ Latest Blog Posts:Atheism+ More Atheism+ stuff

28th August 2012, 09:45 PM	#256
devnull Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 4,537	Originally Posted by Rrose Selavy This for example is what PZ Myers said in May 2012: I wonder what that was all about? Im really sad about how much respect Ive lost for PZ and his regulars in the last year or so. This whole schtick of calling anyone who disagrees with anything at all a misogynist got old very quickly. The sadest thing is that they cant see it.
	__________________ no, i don't think i need to read naturalistic literature more accurately, to be convinced its true. - Gibhor

28th August 2012, 10:31 PM	#257
Natural Born Skeptic Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,159	Originally Posted by devnull I wonder what that was all about? Im really sad about how much respect Ive lost for PZ and his regulars in the last year or so. This whole schtick of calling anyone who disagrees with anything at all a misogynist got old very quickly. The sadest thing is that they cant see it. He's a very angry, nasty and immature man. It's a shame because he also writes some brilliant stuff from time to time. The comments section on his blog is particularly vile and he seems to bask in encouraging that tone. Anyone with an opposite opinion is quickly shouted down and called names. And YES, they LOVE calling people misogynists.
	Last edited by Natural Born Skeptic; 28th August 2012 at 10:35 PM.

29th August 2012, 12:04 AM	#258
eirik Muse Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: norway Posts: 502	"Thunderf00t -- The Julian Assange of Skepticism(tm)" Why, is he on the run from rape charges? (did not read thread)
	__________________ "I do not believe in the immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern without any superhuman authority behind it." -Albert Einstein

29th August 2012, 10:35 AM	#259
Natural Born Skeptic Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,159	I just skimmed through some more of those blog entries. It's a bit amazing how every single FTB blog author all posted on it. It was clearly something they all agreed to or were ordered to do OR it reveals a crazy level of group think. One thing that every single one of the blogs entries has in common - these people are delusional drama queens! All in all this is a rather silly little feud in which they kicked someone off their little list where they gossip about other people, without making sure he was actually off it. He questionably (ethically) keeps reading it, sees comments about how he should be "drummed out of the movement and never allowed to speak again" and shock of shock, starts leaking things from their little gossip group. I better read all 7 pages of this thread before commenting further, I apologize if this has all been covered already.
	Last edited by Natural Born Skeptic; 29th August 2012 at 10:52 AM.

29th August 2012, 11:15 AM	#260
cornsail Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: nowhereville Posts: 2,694	Originally Posted by Natural Born Skeptic I just skimmed through some more of those blog entries. It's a bit amazing how every single FTB blog author all posted on it. Really? I often see people saying that FTB is a diverse group of bloggers who shouldn't be lumped together. Not that this invalidates that, but it does merit an eyebrow raise.

29th August 2012, 11:41 AM	#261
Natural Born Skeptic Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,159	Originally Posted by cornsail Really? I often see people saying that FTB is a diverse group of bloggers who shouldn't be lumped together. Not that this invalidates that, but it does merit an eyebrow raise. Did you see this post? See says: Quote: Here’s the current list of blog posts protesting Thunderf00t’s inexcusable behavior. Ed Brayton Jason Thibeault (includes technical evidence for Mason’s hack) Richard Carrier Dana Hunter Matt Dillahunty Jen McCreight Ophelia Benson Al Stefanelli Ashley Miller Greta Christina JT Eberhard Zinnia Jones Stephanie Zvan Natalie Reed Richard Coughlan (NSFW, and very sarcastic) Shane O’Connor Yankee Cynic Nathan Hevenstone Christopher “Tanoro” Gray Andrew Kate Donovan Skeptifem The uncynic I opened them all in tabs just to get an idea of what I was going to be seeing and it was pretty funny to see that every single one of them was a "Free Thought" blog! Of course she also links to Thunderf00t’s blog, making sure to title it for him as "Thunderf00t’s confession" which is pretty funny. I think I saw several others referring to it in that vein as well, so I guess their marketing manager said "hey, make sure and refer to his blog post as a confession" .

29th August 2012, 12:38 PM	#262
Wildy Adelaidean Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia, not that you'll read the "location" field. Posts: 9,953	Every name listed from Richard Coughlan on isn't on FtB. However pretty much all of FtB did say something.
	__________________ Latest Blog Posts:Atheism+ More Atheism+ stuff

29th August 2012, 12:45 PM	#263
paulhutch Scholar Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Blackstone River Valley, MA Posts: 107	Originally Posted by Natural Born Skeptic I opened them all in tabs just to get an idea of what I was going to be seeing and it was pretty funny to see that every single one of them was a "Free Thought" blog! In my browser just under 2/3rds of them open at FTB, the last nine are independent sites. FTB has 36 blogs, of which 14 are in the list so just under 40% of FTB.

29th August 2012, 12:52 PM	#264
Natural Born Skeptic Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,159	Originally Posted by Wildy Every name listed from Richard Coughlan on isn't on FtB. However pretty much all of FtB did say something. My mistake, I thought I had opened all of them, I may not have made it down that far.

29th August 2012, 01:02 PM	#265
Natural Born Skeptic Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,159	Originally Posted by UnrepentantSinner I've referred to it repeatedly in these threads, but really wish some "critical thinkers" would read Shermer's take on Ayn Rand. http://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/...lt-in-history/ Thanks for the link, that was an interesting read.

29th August 2012, 06:36 PM	#266
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 27,246	Originally Posted by eirik "Thunderf00t -- The Julian Assange of Skepticism(tm)" Why, is he on the run from rape charges? (did not read thread) As near as I can make out he actually was raped, repeatedly with a rusty porcupine.