Atheists are to blame for...something, evidently

RSLancastr · 23rd July 2012, 06:48 PM

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/20...-christianity/

I can't even parse Tea Party Congressman Louie Gohmert (R-TX)'s answer to host Istook's question regarding the Batman Massacre in Aurora:

Quote:

ERNEST ISTOOK (HOST): What was your experience as a judge, when you’re on the bench, this is Congressman Luie Gohmert, when you’re on the bench, what was your experience with people who had mental health issues that were involved in crimes of violence?

GOHMERT: Well, it’s always a problem and there are some people who require medication … But you know, I might mention something else that hadn’t been public yet. Most of us that follow the military, love the military know that we have had an extraordinary increase in suicide rates in the military and it’s just heartbreaking … There was a study commissioned, 6,000 personal of index profiles and what they found, and I don’t ‘know if they’ll make it public…but all of the people who have committed suicide within their two percent studied, were part of their 2 percent most atheistic members of the military. We’ve lost our faith.

steve s · 23rd July 2012, 07:03 PM

Quote:

...were part of their 2 percent most atheistic members of the military

And how would they know this? You can't interview after their dead, and do they really question personnel about their religious beliefs, beyond asking them what they want put on their dogtags?

Steve S

RSLancastr · 23rd July 2012, 07:14 PM

Steve, the dogtags thing seems most likely to me.

dropzone · 23rd July 2012, 09:45 PM

So do dogtags have a space to show your degree of atheism? Gomer suggests there is one for "most."

Lowpro · 23rd July 2012, 09:49 PM

O.o I haven't heard a study that found a correlation between faith and suicide in them military. I know this guy says it's not public but I'd assume it'd be hard to keep it from being public in the first place if they have that data anyways.

truethat · 23rd July 2012, 09:54 PM

That is quite odd. I wrote a paper years ago stating that the evolutionary advantage of god belief is that it staved off a suicide impulse.

Toontown · 23rd July 2012, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by truethat

That is quite odd. I wrote a paper years ago stating that the evolutionary advantage of god belief is that it staved off a suicide impulse.

It would seem that Hell, and the prospect of burning eternally therein, would be more effective in staving off a suicide impulse.

But I suppose God and Hell go together like...well, a horse and carriage. Like love and marriage. You can't have one without the other.

truethat · 23rd July 2012, 10:07 PM

Nah I have a huge paper about it. I equate it to language acquisition. Total nonsense LOL

Kopji · 23rd July 2012, 10:23 PM

He finds our lack of faith disturbing.

His argument seems like a simple appeal to authority though. He says he has some sort of secret knowledge we are not privy to. If his conclusion is so obvious, I find it hard to accept that they are not shouting it from the rooftops. Maybe they are trying to protect atheist's feelings.

I might be willing to concede this point though. Is he saying that a religious zealot makes a better soldier...?

Marduk · 23rd July 2012, 11:19 PM

"something else that hadn’t been public yet." = "something I made up earlier"
The four highest causes of death for US military personnel are from combat, suicide, traffic accidents in the US, and military accidents
none of these is a front runner
of these the most suicides are associated with PTSD
PTSD has nothing to do with religious beliefs

RSLancastr · 24th July 2012, 12:16 AM

[quote=Marduk;8479929PTSD has nothing to do with religious beliefs

[/QUOTE]

No, but the way one responds to/deals with it just might.

Aepervius · 24th July 2012, 02:20 AM

I could imagine religious belief help go through PTSD. As could pot, alcohol, or getting whipped by a madam while saying you have been a bad boy. That does not make drug and S&M "validated", just as it does not make religious belief "validated".

marplots · 24th July 2012, 03:43 AM

I always thought atheism was a strong disincentive for suicide. No happy ever after for me...

Dancing David · 24th July 2012, 04:35 AM

Originally Posted by RSLancastr

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/20...-christianity/

I can't even parse Tea Party Congressman Louie Gohmert (R-TX)'s answer to host Istook's question regarding the Batman Massacre in Aurora:

Yeah right, all the suicides are by atheists

Dancing David · 24th July 2012, 04:37 AM

I am not aware of the effect that religion has on suicide either way. I will have to look...

Cayvmann · 24th July 2012, 05:26 AM

So within the 2 % studied, they were of the 2 % most atheistic? Lolwut?

Aren't monotheists among the most atheistic? I mean there are thousands of gods to choose from and they only believe in one of them...

Dancing David · 24th July 2012, 10:12 AM

While there is some unreported correlation between religious beliefs and not committing suicide, the regression analysis is not one I am searching for it was done in 1983, it was done across 25 nation and showed the correlation only for women.

This study alludes to studies that disagree

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18444780

This study would indicate that it is not religious belief perse, but social support that deters suicide.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...nticated=false

This article links to other studies
http://www.springerlink.com/content/t1847626044728t0/
But it is likely a biased publication...

And in looking for the paper Maris et al 2000. it lists I begin to suspect that they are overstating the statistic

In fact it is interesting because it is not a common theme in suicide journals, which makes me suspect people are overstating the case.

Beerina · 24th July 2012, 10:39 AM

If true, I suggest it's because they are "out" and being badgered into despair by very un-Jesus-like Christians.

Jesus lead by example, and not by badgering. People saw him being awesome and kind.

Mark6 · 24th July 2012, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by steve s

And how would they know this? You can't interview after their dead, and do they really question personnel about their religious beliefs, beyond asking them what they want put on their dogtags?

Yes, dogtags have "religious affiliation" line, and you can put "atheist" or "no preference" there.

Joey McGee · 24th July 2012, 11:30 AM

The asshat issues an "apology" for his comments that were "grossly taken out of context" Yeah my eyes rolled so hard one of them popped out of the socket.

I love his coy ploy at this "secret study" gambit "I don’t know if they will make it public – one of the participants told me ‘ the results may not go public". No one believes you, put up or shut up...

mike3 · 24th July 2012, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by steve s

And how would they know this? You can't interview after their dead, and do they really question personnel about their religious beliefs, beyond asking them what they want put on their dogtags?

Steve S

Not sure if their conclusion is valid, but couldn't they have followed the people while alive and seen them commit suicide later?

Robrob · 24th July 2012, 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by Lowpro

O.o I haven't heard a study that found a correlation between faith and suicide in them military. I know this guy says it's not public but I'd assume it'd be hard to keep it from being public in the first place if they have that data anyways.

Sounds more like he's passing off some chain email he received as truth.

FWIW, I'm an atheist and (by choice) my tags say "Protestant No Denomination."

RSLancastr · 24th July 2012, 08:37 PM

I would want mine to say "Militant Agnostic (I don't know and neither do you)".

Probably would require a whole 'nother tag, though.

HansMustermann · 25th July 2012, 03:41 AM

1. I would love to see him cite an actual study, because as long as he just has some supposed secret one that was never made public... I mean, it doesn't just say that at worst it doesn't exist, but also at best it means it was never peer-reviewed. I.e., even if some psychologist says that, if nobody else saw the data, much less reviewed it, really, it never supported that claim.

2. Well, technically I don't see him claiming causation in that quote, but it seems at least implied. In reality, even if such a study existed, correlation doesn't mean causation. It can also go the other way around, or a third factor can cause both.

E.g., someone who's witnessed enough crap to drive them to suicide, I can easily imagine that on the way there at least some of them would basically run face-first into the problem of suffering. I.e., why the heck would a good God make a world like that, and if he did, why would he deserve worship? Sometimes one needs life to slap them hard in the face, to even start thinking about divine benevolence and justice, and realize that there is none.

A correlation also doesn't necessarily mean that religion is good. Shoving religion down the throat of someone who already is depressed... well, I can't speak of all possible religions, but I can't imagine how the threat- and guilt-heavy Abrahamic religions would help someone who's depressed. A central message that you're inherently a worthless piece of crap, so bad that you're inherently worthy of infinite punishment, and needs to beg Jesus to be saved, I can't imagine how it would possibly get anyone any less depressed.

And because someone will inevitably come and say, "no, see, religion doesn't do that. It's just about love, see?"... no, it ain't.

I could even go down the dark alley of how that "love" is just the usual excuse in an abusive relationship, where you're constantly put down, reminded how worthless you are, how you don't measure up, you can't even do your own decisions on your own, etc. Sounds familiar? Yeah, somehow Jesus's love, the way most churches administer it, is fitting the criteria of an unhealthy, abusive relationship quite uncannily.

But more specifically for the RCC I'll submit the following capital sins; sins so grievous that Jesus goes all passive-aggressive emo and ain't talking to you no' mo... unlike more common sins like, you know, actually murdering someone, which apparently you can still ask Jesus to forgive:

- sloth, a.k.a., depression. You'll notice how, although it is made to sound like laziness, the words and quotes used mention sadness, getting demotivated, growing weary, hardships, growing distressed, etc. I.e., depression. Yeah, if you get demotivated instead of brown-nosing Jesus, you're a worthless piece of scum that deserves to burn in Hell for eternity.

- pride. Taking any credit for your own hard work, talent or merits, instead of admitting you're a worthless piece of crap that got some success totally undeservedly from God, is the biggest of all capital sins. Even taking credit to the effect of, 'because I prayed harder' is the capital sin of pride. I.e., having any sense of self-worth is bad.

I can't imagine how any of those two would help get someone out of a depression.

Travis · 25th July 2012, 05:20 AM

I'll see his see his secret study and raise him a double secret study that says atheist men are all well hung billionaire badasses.

RSLancastr · 25th July 2012, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by Travis

I'll see his see his secret study and raise him a double secret study that says atheist men are all well hung billionaire badasses.

True...for certain values of "all", "well", "hung", "billionaire" and "badasses".

MattusMaximus · 26th July 2012, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by Lowpro

O.o I haven't heard a study that found a correlation between faith and suicide in them military. I know this guy says it's not public but I'd assume it'd be hard to keep it from being public in the first place if they have that data anyways.

I'm going with "making crap up to support my belief that atheists are sad, sad people" for $200

AvalonXQ · 26th July 2012, 08:44 PM

The study was very clever - it used likelihood to commit suicide as a proxy for strength of atheistic beliefs.

Halfcentaur · 26th July 2012, 09:11 PM

If only we could easily dismiss this by citing all the statistics for suicide, depression, and mental illness in Christians, but of course most Christians aren't true Christians.

meg · 26th July 2012, 11:00 PM

As if the military doesn't spend enough already forcing christianity down our soldiers' throats. http://www.alternet.org/story/152120...ers?page=0%2C0

http://freethoughtblogs.com/rockbeyo...et-born-again/

KingMerv00 · 27th July 2012, 04:06 PM

Atheism correlates with suicide. Theism correlates with homicide. I know who I'd rather hang out with.

Yes I'm kidding.

fuelair · 27th July 2012, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by Marduk

"something else that hadn’t been public yet." = "something I made up earlier"
The four highest causes of death for US military personnel are from combat, suicide, traffic accidents in the US, and military accidents
none of these is a front runner
of these the most suicides are associated with PTSD
PTSD has nothing to do with religious beliefs

Sure it does - if you believe dog's love and caring takes away all the effects of trauma. It's just the same as the believers always surviving traffic accidents, airplane crashes, pandemics, floods, fires, etc. without a scratch... It's alway only been non-believers who were injured or killed or disabled.

: jaw-dropp

lopeyschools · 27th July 2012, 06:22 PM

Ironically, my secret study indicates that suicide is highly correlated with religious belief in certain Islamic military groups.

Loss Leader · 27th July 2012, 08:05 PM

However crazy he is (and the answer seems to be "a whole bunch of crazy"), he's well-liked by his constituents. He ran basically unopposed in the last two elections.

I'm not sure why he's called a "Tea Party" congressman. He was elected for the first time years before the Tea Party even came into existence.

bpesta22 · 27th July 2012, 08:59 PM

I always try to code data for the 50 US states whenever I see claims of individual effects like these.

And, it wouldn't surprise me if atheism were related weakly to suicide rates. They are, using the 50 US states as the unit of analysis (r = .31). See attached graph.

Interestingly, how fundamentally religious a state was correlated near zero with suicide rates...

bpesta22 · 27th July 2012, 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by KingMerv00

Atheism correlates with suicide. Theism correlates with homicide. I know who I'd rather hang out with.

Yes I'm kidding.

Your hypothesis is correct (for the 50 US states)

r=.48

The effect holds exclusively for Protestants (catholics and heathens mean lower murder rates...).

AvalonXQ · 28th July 2012, 06:14 AM

Originally Posted by KingMerv00

Atheism correlates with suicide. Theism correlates with homicide. I know who I'd rather hang out with.

Which one correlates with patricide or matricide?

I need to decide how to raise my kids.

KingMerv00 · 30th July 2012, 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Which one correlates with patricide or matricide?

I need to decide how to raise my kids.

Greek mythology.

It also correlates with self-inflicted blindness, rape by swan, and death by irony.

Aepervius · 30th July 2012, 09:26 PM

Originally Posted by KingMerv00

Greek mythology.

It also correlates with self-inflicted blindness, rape by swan, and death by irony.

Also watch out for those shower of coins.

23rd July 2012, 06:48 PM	#1
RSLancastr www.StopSylvia.com Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Salem, Oregon Posts: 15,526	Atheists are to blame for...something, evidently http://thinkprogress.org/politics/20...-christianity/ I can't even parse Tea Party Congressman Louie Gohmert (R-TX)'s answer to host Istook's question regarding the Batman Massacre in Aurora: Quote: ERNEST ISTOOK (HOST): What was your experience as a judge, when you’re on the bench, this is Congressman Luie Gohmert, when you’re on the bench, what was your experience with people who had mental health issues that were involved in crimes of violence? GOHMERT: Well, it’s always a problem and there are some people who require medication … But you know, I might mention something else that hadn’t been public yet. Most of us that follow the military, love the military know that we have had an extraordinary increase in suicide rates in the military and it’s just heartbreaking … There was a study commissioned, 6,000 personal of index profiles and what they found, and I don’t ‘know if they’ll make it public…but all of the people who have committed suicide within their two percent studied, were part of their 2 percent most atheistic members of the military. We’ve lost our faith.
	__________________ Who is "Kaz?" Read about her at www.StopKaz.com. Curious about Sylvia Browne? Read about her at www.StopSylvia.com. Ever wonder "What's the Harm?" with psychics, alternative medicine, etc?

23rd July 2012, 07:03 PM	#2
steve s Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,656	Quote: ...were part of their 2 percent most atheistic members of the military And how would they know this? You can't interview after their dead, and do they really question personnel about their religious beliefs, beyond asking them what they want put on their dogtags? Steve S
steve s Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,656	__________________ "Nature abhors a moron." -- H. L. Mencken

23rd July 2012, 07:14 PM	#3
RSLancastr www.StopSylvia.com Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Salem, Oregon Posts: 15,526	Steve, the dogtags thing seems most likely to me.
	__________________ Who is "Kaz?" Read about her at www.StopKaz.com. Curious about Sylvia Browne? Read about her at www.StopSylvia.com. Ever wonder "What's the Harm?" with psychics, alternative medicine, etc?

23rd July 2012, 09:49 PM	#5
Lowpro Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 4,517	O.o I haven't heard a study that found a correlation between faith and suicide in them military. I know this guy says it's not public but I'd assume it'd be hard to keep it from being public in the first place if they have that data anyways.
	__________________ "If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers

23rd July 2012, 09:54 PM	#6
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,622	That is quite odd. I wrote a paper years ago stating that the evolutionary advantage of god belief is that it staved off a suicide impulse.
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,622	__________________ “Do not argue with an idiot they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain

23rd July 2012, 09:45 PM	#4
dropzone Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 1,666	So do dogtags have a space to show your degree of atheism? Gomer suggests there is one for "most."

23rd July 2012, 10:06 PM	#7
Toontown Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,555	Originally Posted by truethat That is quite odd. I wrote a paper years ago stating that the evolutionary advantage of god belief is that it staved off a suicide impulse. It would seem that Hell, and the prospect of burning eternally therein, would be more effective in staving off a suicide impulse. But I suppose God and Hell go together like...well, a horse and carriage. Like love and marriage. You can't have one without the other.
Toontown Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,555	__________________ SEARCH NOW THE SPHERES PROBE THE UNIVERSE SEND BACK WORD WHAT FORCE SO IRRESISTIBLE AS THE WILL OF FREE MEN

23rd July 2012, 10:07 PM	#8
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,622	Nah I have a huge paper about it. I equate it to language acquisition. Total nonsense LOL
truethat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 8,622	__________________ “Do not argue with an idiot they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain

23rd July 2012, 10:23 PM	#9
Kopji Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Mogollon Rim Posts: 7,697	He finds our lack of faith disturbing. His argument seems like a simple appeal to authority though. He says he has some sort of secret knowledge we are not privy to. If his conclusion is so obvious, I find it hard to accept that they are not shouting it from the rooftops. Maybe they are trying to protect atheist's feelings. I might be willing to concede this point though. Is he saying that a religious zealot makes a better soldier...?

23rd July 2012, 11:19 PM	#10
Marduk Banned Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 10,242	"something else that hadn’t been public yet." = "something I made up earlier" The four highest causes of death for US military personnel are from combat, suicide, traffic accidents in the US, and military accidents none of these is a front runner of these the most suicides are associated with PTSD PTSD has nothing to do with religious beliefs
	Last edited by Marduk; 23rd July 2012 at 11:24 PM.

24th July 2012, 12:16 AM	#11
RSLancastr www.StopSylvia.com Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Salem, Oregon Posts: 15,526	[quote=Marduk;8479929PTSD has nothing to do with religious beliefs [/QUOTE] No, but the way one responds to/deals with it just might.
	__________________ Who is "Kaz?" Read about her at www.StopKaz.com. Curious about Sylvia Browne? Read about her at www.StopSylvia.com. Ever wonder "What's the Harm?" with psychics, alternative medicine, etc?

24th July 2012, 02:20 AM	#12
Aepervius Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bierland. I mean , germany. Posts: 7,730	I could imagine religious belief help go through PTSD. As could pot, alcohol, or getting whipped by a madam while saying you have been a bad boy. That does not make drug and S&M "validated", just as it does not make religious belief "validated".
	__________________ Omnes Blessant Ultima necat "I want, and this is my last and most dear wish, I want that the last of the king be strangled with the guts of the last priest" (Jean Meslier / 1664-1729 / Testament) A very early french atheist, a catholic priest in life.

24th July 2012, 03:43 AM	#13
marplots Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 5,356	I always thought atheism was a strong disincentive for suicide. No happy ever after for me...
marplots Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 5,356

24th July 2012, 04:35 AM	#14
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,695	Originally Posted by RSLancastr http://thinkprogress.org/politics/20...-christianity/ I can't even parse Tea Party Congressman Louie Gohmert (R-TX)'s answer to host Istook's question regarding the Batman Massacre in Aurora: Yeah right, all the suicides are by atheists
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

24th July 2012, 04:37 AM	#15
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,695	I am not aware of the effect that religion has on suicide either way. I will have to look...
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

24th July 2012, 05:26 AM	#16
Cayvmann Muse Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 578	So within the 2 % studied, they were of the 2 % most atheistic? Lolwut? Aren't monotheists among the most atheistic? I mean there are thousands of gods to choose from and they only believe in one of them...
Cayvmann Muse Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 578

24th July 2012, 10:12 AM	#17
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,695	While there is some unreported correlation between religious beliefs and not committing suicide, the regression analysis is not one I am searching for it was done in 1983, it was done across 25 nation and showed the correlation only for women. This study alludes to studies that disagree http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18444780 This study would indicate that it is not religious belief perse, but social support that deters suicide. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...nticated=false This article links to other studies http://www.springerlink.com/content/t1847626044728t0/ But it is likely a biased publication... And in looking for the paper Maris et al 2000. it lists I begin to suspect that they are overstating the statistic In fact it is interesting because it is not a common theme in suicide journals, which makes me suspect people are overstating the case.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

24th July 2012, 10:39 AM	#18
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	If true, I suggest it's because they are "out" and being badgered into despair by very un-Jesus-like Christians. Jesus lead by example, and not by badgering. People saw him being awesome and kind.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right? Last edited by Beerina; 24th July 2012 at 10:41 AM.

24th July 2012, 10:40 AM	#19
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,171	Originally Posted by steve s And how would they know this? You can't interview after their dead, and do they really question personnel about their religious beliefs, beyond asking them what they want put on their dogtags? Yes, dogtags have "religious affiliation" line, and you can put "atheist" or "no preference" there.
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,171	__________________ Gamemaster: "A horde of rotting zombies is shambling toward you. The sign over the door says 'Accounting'"

24th July 2012, 11:30 AM	#20
Joey McGee Transcendental Naturalist Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 3,105	The asshat issues an "apology" for his comments that were "grossly taken out of context" Yeah my eyes rolled so hard one of them popped out of the socket. I love his coy ploy at this "secret study" gambit "I don’t know if they will make it public – one of the participants told me ‘ the results may not go public". No one believes you, put up or shut up...
	__________________ How do I know that this is so? By looking!

24th July 2012, 08:13 PM	#21
mike3 Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 1,938	Originally Posted by steve s And how would they know this? You can't interview after their dead, and do they really question personnel about their religious beliefs, beyond asking them what they want put on their dogtags? Steve S Not sure if their conclusion is valid, but couldn't they have followed the people while alive and seen them commit suicide later?
mike3 Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 1,938	__________________ “Ego is subversive and devolutionary, truly destructive and terrible; ego is the generator of privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. Ego is the fire that burns within the pit of hell, devouring and cosuming everything that enters and leaving utterly nothing behind. Ego is horrible, cruel, and restraining, the darkness of the world, and the doom and bane of man.” – a reaction to that famous Bertrand Russell quote.

24th July 2012, 08:28 PM	#22
Robrob Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 3,660	Originally Posted by Lowpro O.o I haven't heard a study that found a correlation between faith and suicide in them military. I know this guy says it's not public but I'd assume it'd be hard to keep it from being public in the first place if they have that data anyways. Sounds more like he's passing off some chain email he received as truth. FWIW, I'm an atheist and (by choice) my tags say "Protestant No Denomination."
Robrob Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 3,660

24th July 2012, 08:37 PM	#23
RSLancastr www.StopSylvia.com Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Salem, Oregon Posts: 15,526	I would want mine to say "Militant Agnostic (I don't know and neither do you)". Probably would require a whole 'nother tag, though.
	__________________ Who is "Kaz?" Read about her at www.StopKaz.com. Curious about Sylvia Browne? Read about her at www.StopSylvia.com. Ever wonder "What's the Harm?" with psychics, alternative medicine, etc?

25th July 2012, 03:41 AM	#24
HansMustermann Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 9,796	1. I would love to see him cite an actual study, because as long as he just has some supposed secret one that was never made public... I mean, it doesn't just say that at worst it doesn't exist, but also at best it means it was never peer-reviewed. I.e., even if some psychologist says that, if nobody else saw the data, much less reviewed it, really, it never supported that claim. 2. Well, technically I don't see him claiming causation in that quote, but it seems at least implied. In reality, even if such a study existed, correlation doesn't mean causation. It can also go the other way around, or a third factor can cause both. E.g., someone who's witnessed enough crap to drive them to suicide, I can easily imagine that on the way there at least some of them would basically run face-first into the problem of suffering. I.e., why the heck would a good God make a world like that, and if he did, why would he deserve worship? Sometimes one needs life to slap them hard in the face, to even start thinking about divine benevolence and justice, and realize that there is none. A correlation also doesn't necessarily mean that religion is good. Shoving religion down the throat of someone who already is depressed... well, I can't speak of all possible religions, but I can't imagine how the threat- and guilt-heavy Abrahamic religions would help someone who's depressed. A central message that you're inherently a worthless piece of crap, so bad that you're inherently worthy of infinite punishment, and needs to beg Jesus to be saved, I can't imagine how it would possibly get anyone any less depressed. And because someone will inevitably come and say, "no, see, religion doesn't do that. It's just about love, see?"... no, it ain't. I could even go down the dark alley of how that "love" is just the usual excuse in an abusive relationship, where you're constantly put down, reminded how worthless you are, how you don't measure up, you can't even do your own decisions on your own, etc. Sounds familiar? Yeah, somehow Jesus's love, the way most churches administer it, is fitting the criteria of an unhealthy, abusive relationship quite uncannily. But more specifically for the RCC I'll submit the following capital sins; sins so grievous that Jesus goes all passive-aggressive emo and ain't talking to you no' mo... unlike more common sins like, you know, actually murdering someone, which apparently you can still ask Jesus to forgive: - sloth, a.k.a., depression. You'll notice how, although it is made to sound like laziness, the words and quotes used mention sadness, getting demotivated, growing weary, hardships, growing distressed, etc. I.e., depression. Yeah, if you get demotivated instead of brown-nosing Jesus, you're a worthless piece of scum that deserves to burn in Hell for eternity. - pride. Taking any credit for your own hard work, talent or merits, instead of admitting you're a worthless piece of crap that got some success totally undeservedly from God, is the biggest of all capital sins. Even taking credit to the effect of, 'because I prayed harder' is the capital sin of pride. I.e., having any sense of self-worth is bad. I can't imagine how any of those two would help get someone out of a depression.

25th July 2012, 05:20 AM	#25
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tuolumne City, CA Posts: 17,937	I'll see his see his secret study and raise him a double secret study that says atheist men are all well hung billionaire badasses.
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25th July 2012, 07:55 AM	#26
RSLancastr www.StopSylvia.com Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Salem, Oregon Posts: 15,526	Originally Posted by Travis I'll see his see his secret study and raise him a double secret study that says atheist men are all well hung billionaire badasses. True...for certain values of "all", "well", "hung", "billionaire" and "badasses".
	__________________ Who is "Kaz?" Read about her at www.StopKaz.com. Curious about Sylvia Browne? Read about her at www.StopSylvia.com. Ever wonder "What's the Harm?" with psychics, alternative medicine, etc?

26th July 2012, 08:38 PM	#27
MattusMaximus Intellectual Gladiator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In the midst of a vast, beautiful & uncaring universe Posts: 14,175	Originally Posted by Lowpro O.o I haven't heard a study that found a correlation between faith and suicide in them military. I know this guy says it's not public but I'd assume it'd be hard to keep it from being public in the first place if they have that data anyways. I'm going with "making crap up to support my belief that atheists are sad, sad people" for $200
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26th July 2012, 08:44 PM	#28
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	The study was very clever - it used likelihood to commit suicide as a proxy for strength of atheistic beliefs.
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

26th July 2012, 09:11 PM	#29
Halfcentaur Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 5,935	If only we could easily dismiss this by citing all the statistics for suicide, depression, and mental illness in Christians, but of course most Christians aren't true Christians.
Halfcentaur Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 5,935

26th July 2012, 11:00 PM	#30
meg psychic reader Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kansas USA Posts: 1,398	As if the military doesn't spend enough already forcing christianity down our soldiers' throats. http://www.alternet.org/story/152120...ers?page=0%2C0 http://freethoughtblogs.com/rockbeyo...et-born-again/
	__________________ "If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he next comes to drinking and sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." - Thomas DeQuincey

27th July 2012, 04:06 PM	#31
KingMerv00 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Philadelphia, PA...USA Posts: 14,482	Atheism correlates with suicide. Theism correlates with homicide. I know who I'd rather hang out with. Yes I'm kidding.
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27th July 2012, 04:13 PM	#32
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,881	Originally Posted by Marduk "something else that hadn’t been public yet." = "something I made up earlier" The four highest causes of death for US military personnel are from combat, suicide, traffic accidents in the US, and military accidents none of these is a front runner of these the most suicides are associated with PTSD PTSD has nothing to do with religious beliefs Sure it does - if you believe dog's love and caring takes away all the effects of trauma. It's just the same as the believers always surviving traffic accidents, airplane crashes, pandemics, floods, fires, etc. without a scratch... It's alway only been non-believers who were injured or killed or disabled.: jaw-dropp
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27th July 2012, 06:22 PM	#33
lopeyschools Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: West Coast - BC Posts: 372	Ironically, my secret study indicates that suicide is highly correlated with religious belief in certain Islamic military groups.

27th July 2012, 08:05 PM	#34
Loss Leader Opinionated Jerk Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: New York Posts: 11,882	However crazy he is (and the answer seems to be "a whole bunch of crazy"), he's well-liked by his constituents. He ran basically unopposed in the last two elections. I'm not sure why he's called a "Tea Party" congressman. He was elected for the first time years before the Tea Party even came into existence.
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28th July 2012, 06:14 AM	#37
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by KingMerv00 Atheism correlates with suicide. Theism correlates with homicide. I know who I'd rather hang out with. Which one correlates with patricide or matricide? I need to decide how to raise my kids.
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853